Let’s Talk About Fathers & Suns

Week two of Red Dwarf X‘s assault on digital broadcasting. Please use this post as a repository for all your musings on deadly computers, trucknapping and bits of poppadom. We’ll be reading a selection of comments from this thread during tonight’s LIVE Dwarfcast, which will start at 10pm. We’ll be posting a link right here, and also on Twitter. This time last week, G&T was struggling to cope with the legions of Dwarf fans flooding the internet; hopefully, things won’t be so bad this week, but it’s worth following @ganymedetitan on Twitter, to make sure you get the link to the live Dwarfcast and have somewhere to aim your mad thoughts.

It’s well worth listening in, because we’ve got an exclusive interview with Rebecca Blackstone, who plays Pree in tonight’s episode. She’s very friendly, very excitable and very interesting, so make sure you join us tonight at 10pm to make that extra-special ‘new Red Dwarf‘ feeling last a little longer.

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243 Responses to Let’s Talk About Fathers & Suns

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  1. Oh Goody. Pop and snacks bought in readiness for another night of Dwarfiness.

  2. Badly worded Tweet on standby…

  3. I’ve been waiting for this episode ever since I heard the DJ Dwarfcast that mentioned it.

    I am slightly worried that the episode won’t do the concept justice if the preview trailer is anything to go by.

  4. I’ve been waiting for this episode ever since I heard the DJ Dwarfcast that mentioned it.

    Same here! It sounds like such a great concept! I’m wondering if enough will be done with that and the new computer story in 28 or 29 minutes, and the trailer seems to suggest the latter will be the main plot. I’m slightly worried in that respect because neither of these stories seem like they should be a sub-plot. Hope I’m not sounding negative, I’m really excited and curious, if anything, to see how this will turn out.

  5. > Pop and snacks bought in readiness

    I’ve got Haribo Chamallows.

  6. Is it wrong to feel even more positive than last week?

  7. My prediction, based on little more than pig ignorance and conjecture – tonight’s ep will be the sleeper hit of the series

  8. I remember reading a tweet from Richard a few months ago where he was wondering whether it should go out first, as it was so strong. I’m really looking forward to this. :)

  9. Won’t get to watch til this weekend, but looking forward to it.

  10. Now that ive gotten use to how this series feels etc (after multiple viewings of episode 1) im ready to enjoy this episode :)

    i cant wait!

  11. I find it amusing how it’s only the 2nd one and I’m taking it for granted that there’s a new episode of Red Dwarf on, like it’s a regular occurrence!

    Seeya on the other side of ‘Fathers and Suns’!!

  12. Brace yourself, here it comes!

  13. You went on g and t before the episode was finished didn’t yer?! Now get back in front of that tv or there’ll be daddy discipline.

  14. Hmm, either they used a ‘lesser’ take of the Rimmer/Kryten picking Pree’s attributes scene or it wasn’t quite as good as I’d remembered. I recall massive woofers for that scene on the night, on the first take.

    The Lister scene leading into break… brilliant. Did the audio go out of synch for the last few seconds or was it just on my end?

  15. This reminds me of Thanks for the Memory so far.

  16. Pree has that ‘Cassandra’ feel about her currently.. but the Lister Dad talk had me in stitches!!

  17. Expecting some form of woofer at the end of this Chinese Whisper story.

  18. G&T Admin

    Wow. Lots to talk about. Stand by for the link to the stream.

  19. Um…I didn’t particularly like that.

    Two questions while I process my thoughts:

    1) Why the hell is Red Dwarf’s medibay being staffed by Elmo?
    2) What the fuck happened to Kryten’s mask in the scene where they’re about to be crushed? The right side is a complete mess.

  20. Hmmmmm. If I my expectations hadn’t increased dramatically because of how much I enjoyed Trojan, and that had been the first episode of the series, I think I would be highly chuffed. I enjoyed it, its still better than Series 7 and 8 by a country mile, but I didn’t laugh as much as with Trojan. No huge woofers for me – but the ‘Lister and Lister’ conversation was borderline genius.

  21. I dont really know what to think to be honest.
    While it was still better than all of series 7 and 8 and the scene with Lister talking to himself was sheer brilliance and had me laughing out loud, I think the plot with the Chinese Whispers was unnecessary. Trojan was much better in my opinion.

  22. First impression, that didn’t feel like Dwarf to me. Reasonable story, lack of real woofers.

  23. That was very special. Not sure about the Medi-Bot, but the Father/Son stuff was great, and some beautiful model shots. Also liked the stairs down from the RamScoop. Better than last week. 8, maybe 9 out of 10.

  24. Well Pree comes from a similar well to Queeg and Cassandra, while the Lister thread continued the story started in Ouroboros. SO those who dislike nods to the past will probably have plenty to say.

    I want to watch it again to absorb it a little better before making my final judgement, but first impressions: some scenes that got huge reactions at the recording seem rather subdued in this (the ‘picking Pree’s attributes’ scene, the laughing gas scene, the Taiwan Tony reveal)… certainly the first take of the initialising Pree scene was the best of the bunch, and I have a feeling they didn’t go with that one here.

    Lister’s video message to his hungover self was the highlight of the recording and the highlight of the finished article too, so it seems. Great scene, and the end was a little less pantomimey than I had remembered (“I HATE you!!”), but there was either some really badly dubbed ADR or an audio synch issue on the broadcast right at the very end of that scene (on my end, at least).

    Cat was fairly underused in this, although I enjoyed his inital confusion surrounding chinese whispers/whiskers. Looking at the finished result, that whole Chinese whispers thread added nothing but (just like the phone call queue last week, which I liked far more) was integrated into the climax.

    It felt like a very odd episode overall, but there was a lot to like about it.

  25. Once I’ve collected my thoughts together I wouldn’t be surprised if it is top 20. A big improvement on last weeks episode.

    Cat was reading Morris Dancer Monthly while waiting for the medi-bay.

  26. it was a nice episode! the mild peril was quite cool but there wasnt as many funny moments for me personally. The Lister/father talk did make me laugh a lot though!
    It was saddening that the cat was left out too much…

    one note: kryten said he missed holly… were they going via the BtE story that Holly was damaged with the flooding?

  27. Also, ouch at misspelling Rebecca Blackstone as “Rebbecca” in the credits… unless I need my eyes testing.

  28. I thought that was legitimately fantastic. Could pick at some problems in the construction of the second half, but the first half was utter fried gold.

    And the problems in the second half were more than made up for by SEEING INSIDE THE RAMSCOOP, MOTHERFUCKERS.

  29. G&T Admin

    I’m fascinated to see this tomorrow, as I remember the Chinese Whispers stuff being some of my favourite bits of the episode. (Ironic, considering my views about the phone plot in Ep 1.)

  30. I think overall i preferred last weeks, as the ratio of cleverness and gags was more in the middle, however some great bits in this episode. Thought the whole Lister being his own dad stuff, especially the scene with him disciplining himself was hilarious stuff. Loved the Chinese knickers running gag.

    Didn’t much like Pree though, sorry. She was actually starting to annoy me after a while. Not her actual lines or story, more her performance :( Sorry…. As Brent Spiner says, playing a computer is actually hard to do right, and i couldn’t quite enjoy her performance.

  31. Loved it.

    I think I’m right in saying that’s the first time they’ve ever named (or even acknowledged) the ramscoop in the series. It’s the little things that excite me.

  32. Did anyone else think the bit with the ramscoop was a bit of a fannish thrill? Or is it just me?

  33. I think I preferred last weeks. But I need a rewatch to make my mind up fully. The end seemed really rushed…wasn’t too sure about the Chinese Whispers gag at all. Most people seemed to love the ‘talking to dad’ scene. I seem to remember it as being funnier on the night and felt a little disappointed with it. But maybe I’ll enjoy it more on rewatch.

  34. Firstly, Kerry Shale playing the Medi-bot Is the Beaver from BBC’s The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe!

    Second, very good – not as funny as last week. But Chris had two line’s that I literally laughed-out-loud at, and they weren’t that brilliant – just SUPERBLY delivered!!!

  35. Oh GOD! The ramscoop bit……. I’m wet! Especially when they used the studio stairs :D

  36. Cwoarr an interview with Rebecca Blackstone eh? I admire her – I hope you call her a “mad goth bastard!”

  37. Loved the Lister dad stuff and Rimmer’s blaming Kryten, didn’t like the med-droid’s look, thought the end was a bit of a mess and I was wincing through the Whispers thread (except Cat and the whiskers)…

    BUT THE SCOOP.

  38. Wasn’t really all that chuffed… felt a bit lackluster. Kept waiting for the Chinese whispers gag to pay off, but it never did, was almost cringeworthy. I liked that we got to see more of the ship and I liked how we got to see established relationships with the vending machines. However, I must agree it didn’t feel like a particularly Dwarfy episode, which Trojan did in many more respects.

    Cassandra – I mean Pree, didn’t receive enough screen time and was a bit of a wasted concept. I liked all the Lister being his own dad stuff, that worked for me and felt dwarfy… It really is just a shame about the Chinese whispers and Pree not living up to expectations.

    I must point out, a lot of the jokes and several of the concepts this series already have seemed to be dodgy re-hashes of previous series’. I constantly find myself entering a strange state of deja-vu.

    The trailer for next week looks cracking. Albeit not too Dwarfy, but the Jesus line was good enough to get my hopes up.

    Granted it wasn’t a bad episode by any means, but it wasn’t great. Good television, less than average dwarf.

    5.5 / 10 this week folks!

    Line of the week: “You mad goth bastard!”

  39. The Ramscoop interior was brilliant btw!! :)

  40. Enjoyed it greatly but lacked the woofers of last week’s moose and hosed down lines but had arguably a stronger plot.

    I think the lack of explanation of how the ship is cruising along without a computer is kinda annoying, especially when Dave chose to follow the episode with White Hole of all shows!

    Loved the model shots though and the ramscoop finally getting used!

    I think this show will be a grower though, wonder when my iTunes download will begin!

  41. I didn’t enjoy it as much as Trojan but it was still good. There were far fewer strong woofers in this one. Although the Lister Dad-Son scenes were funny I didn’t find that plot particularly interesting. I think I would have liked the Pree storyline to have been focused on as having a new computer warrants an entire episode for me. The chinese whispers felt a bit tacked on just to give Kryten and Cat something to do. Lemons looks like it could be like Backwards/Meltdown so I’m looking forward to it a lot.

  42. That was horrible. Ignoring the fact it wasn’t funny – and, obviously the medi-bot is a hold over from the VIII “before the cutbacks” Red Dwarf. I can’t find anything I could recommend to a friend with this.

    The Chinese whispers thing was awful, commenting on it being racist, and then having a racist caricature as a vending machine? Fucking hell.

    The Lister vs Lister stuff is weird, because it only occurs to him the moment Rimmer mentions it off hand? You’d think he’d know the reason he hasn’t been a good father is because he didn’t know and wasn’t there when he was growing up.

    The Rimmer buzzing sound has no relevance to anything to come later, bizarre.

    I’m also sure we’ve covered the prediction jokes before in Dwarf with Cassandra. And that did it much better.

    The whole plummeting into the sun thing, could that not have been the entire B story? Because that’s pretty engaging.

    There also appears to be a pattern emerging, with characters saying a thing, the other character repeating that thing. Just takes up so much time, this constant flogging of a conversation that’s going nowhere.

    Still, things I liked – Pree as a concept and having the dispensing machines back, even if they’re not Tony Hawks.

  43. Hmmm. It’s really interesting to see how some people who really liked last weeks didn’t like this one so much and vice versa.

    Will watch it again tomorrow when I have my itunes download and can watch it sans advert break. I’d say I enjoyed Trojan more but I don’t know if that’s because I saw this episode recorded and have effectively been living with these jokes for 10 months. That Lister-Lister scene is definitely great though and had me howling at the recording. The resolution and Taiwan Tony I wasn’t fond of at the recording though and after the first viewing my thoughts haven’t really changed.

  44. If I could sum up my feelings on the episode during the first viewing in one word, it would be “wow”. At first, I was a little worried during the first couple minutes but the episode just got better and better as it went on. There were some brilliant concepts that were executed a bit more successfully than last week’s episode. Craig Charles was truly on form in this one – the Lister Dad scenes were funny and so well done. So many good things in this episode and the Kryten mask looks MUCH BETTER now. At the moment, the only negative point I can think of is that I felt the last scene could’ve been better. But overall, a strong Lister-centric episode.

    .

  45. Cat was reading Morris Dancer Monthly while waiting for the medi-bay.

    I geeked hard at that too, excellent touch

  46. Obligatory ‘would need to watch again to be sure’ caveat, but I thought was a solid-ish ep. Liked the Chinese Whispers but was a shame it didn’t get a bigger payoff. Pree was pree-tty and funny, that was a good bit. I could have happily just had a whole episode of A story with Lister and Lister Jr. By the looks of Twitter, half preferred F&S, half Trojan. Not like RD to divide opinions, eh?

    Trojan – B+
    Fathers and Suns – B

  47. I think that last weeks episode has got my hopes up too much for tonights episode. I didn’t enjoy that even half as much as the opener.

    The plot felt like two completely separate stories that were mashed together in order to try and fill half an hour. The tone of the episode was very silly and reminded me of the parts of series 8 that i dislike, no real sense of danger, just too many jokes that aren’t particularly good. The Chinese whispers bit built up throughout the episode to a completely null finale that was lost during the climax of the episode.

    Lister being ejected from the ship resolved itself far too easily, just blasting back onto the ship Event Horizon style disappointed me.

    Why are the crew even installing a new computer? Is Holly completely unusable now? Has this computer been available to install all along?

    Good parts… I love the model shots, they really do look amazing. Cat was quite good with the very limited material he had. Lister talking to himself was quite well done but it had to make Lister look a complete idiot in order to do so. Rimmer had flashes of his old self but then didn’t have the killer line to deliver to make his parts stand out.

    Also, didn’t we see a clip in the teaser last week of the crew looking at a naked lady? Was that bit cut out of the episode or had i missed something? I thought the computer lady somehow became a corporeal entity on the ship.

    The whole episode just fell flat to me, it was all a bit silly and didn’t have either the jokes or the plot to make it a satisfying watch. Hopefully this one is just a blip after the excellent opener last week.

  48. I’m in a bit of a daze with that one. Just seemed like a bit of a mess and shows how much Trojan got right in comparison. I liked Lister talking to himself (a rare bit that made me laugh), I like Pree’s performance and the smart deconstruction of scenes (“You will blame it on Kryten and walk away indignantly”)…I didn’t much like anything else.

    ANOTHER rotten episode opening. Cat and Lister’s opening exchange was limp, Rimmer and Lister’s a minute or so later was far better. Also once again, things get going so slowly and the second half feels messy as a consequence. We really should have opened with Rimmer and Kryten booting up the new computer.

    The chinese whispers thing…well, there was a clever idea hidden in there. But it wasn’t particularly funny (and was a little…er…dodgy?). It also led to a few very short scenes with this being discussed which disrupted the main flow of the episode.

    Bits of it felt like VIII to me, particularly Elmo the doctor. Why is there this incessant need to play things so broad with silly voices?

    Trojan was a hit for me. This was a miss.

  49. The trailer for next week does look significantly better, but then – the trailer for this did too.

    I think the reaction-cast needs to mention Doug’s direction, which is still really quite awful. The performances are still weirdly delayed, like VII. Except now they don’t have the excuse for lack of audience.

    And Chris Barrie appears to be playing Brittas and not Rimmer anymore.

  50. Bit of a thought.

    Lister running out on the medi-bot after giving it ‘all that’ felt a tired, very predictable gag – didn’t laugh
    Rimmer’s handling of the Pree-upload, entirely in character – laughed

    I’m sure this is going to sound like a weird criticism for a sit-com, but (based on the two eps so far) it’s being played a bit too much for laughs. Sat here with White Hole playing… it’s all being played very straight. The gags being pulled through by the circumstances.

  51. I liked the Pree storyline and I liked the father/son storyline. I just don’t think they blended well together. Unlike the two threads interacting in ‘Trojan’ I just felt it didn’t work here.

    Didn’t Naylor Jr debate whether to put this episode out first? If so, I do think it would have fallen on its arse.

  52. My very important thoughts which I’ve nicked from my own Twitter account.

    * Cat is reading a magazine that matches his outfit. Good work.

    * Very Red Dwarf 4, that episode. Right down to spelling mistakes in the closing credits. “Rebbecca”, indeed.

    * Shades of some of the more slapstick bits of RD8, though restricted to maybe 30 seconds of the episode. So I’m fine with that.

    * That story could have worked in Doctor Who. In fact, Lister’s delivery of the solution to Pree was VERY Matt Smith. I’d quite like to see Doug write an episode of Doctor Who on this basis.

  53. Yeah, I found this one a little weird and maybe it’s something that needs to settle and improves with time. Maybe it’s about the Lister-Lister relationship, which needs a bit more thought.

    But I didn’t laugh much at all – smirked a few times, but wasn’t really laughing at all. I thought Pree was basically another version of Cassandra.

    But it wasn’t awful. It was just average, I guess, on first viewing – average as episodes in the ‘classic’ series are, rather than VII and VIII average.

  54. The convo between Lister and himself was classic. Pree concept was great as well. Everything else just not that funny. Felt like series 8 in parts :(

    Lemon’s looks shit from the preview.

    So disappointing after Trojan :(

  55. Great quality picture on the VHS of the future.

  56. I loved Trojan but didn’t enjoy this half as much, fewer gags with little pay off, felt I was forcing myself to laugh at times. In the recording write up it was mentioned that the cast didn’t seem to click like they should and I totally agree. A recycled mix of Queeg and Cassandra, also a bit of Gunmen of the Apocalypse with them flying into a sun! Excellent Lister scenes, but the Chinese whispers gag was cringeworthy! Really hoping I’ll feel different after a rewatch?

  57. It was different. Doug seems to be doing more plots now, like with Lister setting up new medical account for his son, which then was used to resolve the Pree plot. it’s like Doctor Who, you see resolution in plain sight but initially you only see the initial medi thing as a Joke. Rimmer was better this week and loved the early scenes with Kryten accessing the ship, very IV-V. Lister talking to his dad was inspired and the Guitar joke had me scratching my head, as knew pay off was coming but was unaware what it would be. The model shots were good this week, though when Lister went up the scoop, Red Dwarf looked lighter in colour. Cat was once again on form but not liking the new vending machines, preferred the I/II and VIII style, these look too machiny if that makes sense, they look more of our time than ones you’d expect see on Red Dwarf. Kryten was good again though it did feel like he had less to do this week, he was more exposition this time round. overall I’d give it 7 out 10, was okay but think I preferred Trojan, which is odd as was expecting more this week. Think will warrant many rematches, to get it to soak in.

  58. I preferred this to ‘Trojan’. If it wasn’t for the Chinese Whispers gag that started funny but went on way too long and lost all humour by the end, it would have been a genuinely great episode. (Oh, and Chinese Whispers isn’t racist, but the Chinese vending machine was). The Lister Sr. – Lister Jr. stuff was inspired, and Pree was excellent. What I did like was that she wasn’t really an antagonist, not like Queeg. The crew did it all to themselves. Pree was just doing what they wanted. Not thinking things through and screwing themselves over is classic for the Dwarf boys. Model shots were brilliant, among the best the Dwarf has ever looked. 7 out of 10.

  59. The Rimmer buzzing sound has no relevance to anything to come later, bizarre.

    Yes, I remember thinking that back in December and it never occurred to me again until the clip was released recently. I thought “maybe I missed something” but now the episode has aired, there was no resolution at all. I wonder if maybe it’s seeding an arc or at least a callback for another episode in future? If not, it’s completely superfluous.

  60. As much as I liked F and S, I definitely think that Trojan was the right choice to begin the series with. I think this show was largely more suited for hardcore Dwarfers than than Trojan with the character jokes.

  61. Come to think of it, that said I liked the ideas a lot, I was less thrilled by the execution. Fathers & Sun seemed to fit with the post VI trend of delving back to past episodes for inspiration (Gelfs, Ouroboros, Holly) rather than breaking new ground, something Trojan managed well. That said the central fatherhood idea was a strong one.

  62. The Rimmer buzzing sound has no relevance to anything to come later, bizarre.

    Yes, I remember thinking that back in December and it never occurred to me again until the clip was released recently. I thought “maybe I missed something” but now the episode has aired, there was no resolution at all. I wonder if maybe it’s seeding an arc or at least a callback for another episode in future? If not, it’s completely superfluous.

    The buzzing sound was to do with the problems on B-deck. All resolved.

  63. The Rimmer buzzing sound has no relevance to anything to come later, bizarre.

    Yes, I remember thinking that back in December and it never occurred to me again until the clip was released recently. I thought “maybe I missed something” but now the episode has aired, there was no resolution at all. I wonder if maybe it’s seeding an arc or at least a callback for another episode in future? If not, it’s completely superfluous.

    It sets up the ship needing repairs. Rimmer was hearing the whining sound across the ship because it is in such disarray.

  64. The buzzing sound was to do with the problems on B-deck. All resolved.

    I’d considered that. But that would mean Rimmer is actually extremely competent in noticing it. That makes no sense dammit :-p

  65. Doesn’t work though. It sets it up as if it’s something personally to do with Rimmer. But it’s not, it’s a general ship-bound problem.

    I feel like there’s a lot of bending over to excuse the show, because it’s so close to people’s hearts. But there is some seriously dodgy stuff going on.

    And it’s still super stagey. Everyone is just performing out to the audience.

  66. So, Pree the super predictive computer who’s prediction skills could almost be seen as reading the future didn’t see that coming. :?

  67. Lister was no longer a registered crewman… so she couldn’t predict his actions. Maybe ;-)

  68. My mate who’s hated Dwarf since series VII: 8/10, euphoric.

  69. Tennorman, if you have posted a single positive comment on this site I have yet to see it.

  70. So, Pree the super predictive computer who’s prediction skills could almost be seen as reading the future didn’t see that coming.

    Maybe she did, but her role wasn’t to act in self-preservation: it was to logically carry out her instructions. Even if she knew the instructions were going to lead to her being switched off, that doesn’t mean she would move to stop it (in fact, she seemed resigned to it).

  71. Yeah. I described it on another forum as her predictive skills are only as good as the details to hand. She didn’t check the pending medi-records…

  72. Weren’t you complaining about Doug’s direction long before the series was airing, tennorman?

  73. I get the feeling that Curtis is on the money with ‘slow burning hit of the series’. The Lister/Lister’s dad bit was amazing and when I think back to how the strands tied together it is very satisfying.

  74. That’s mainly because it isn’t that funny. People are saying “well, we’ll see on a second watch” – shouldn’t have to do that on a comedy. The ideas though are great, they’re just not well executed. Lots of funny small stuff is missed with messy direction.

    I fucking wish I was enjoying this though, and I’m still watching and I’ll still buy the dvd in the hope there’s a RDXI.

  75. > People are saying “well, we’ll see on a second watch” – shouldn’t have to do that on a comedy.

    So comedy should only be as good as the first viewing? Hmmm.

  76. I’ve read Trojan was deemed as probably the second weakest episode and watching tonights I was wondering -is- this one the weakest then!? However some comments above mention Doug was debating wether to put this one out 1st? Jeeyz?

    Positive overall but is this what I’ve heard all the rumours of seeing something we never though we would see – is it the inside of the scoop? Folk seem to rave about above but I don’t know I’m a bit : / on first impressions.

    Then again I’m a miserable mad goth bastard.

  77. I get the feeling Taiwan Tony and the ‘bots are going to get filed in the same loving storage unit as Pete and the Data Doctor…

    Several of the jokes also sit in the series 8 cupboard, but i think they’re not shit – it’s like they’re series 8 executed properly.
    I love this new series so far – even the poorer jokes are better than many in 7/8/9,
    And i’m really pleased that the boys are all back on form. no more of Danny playing the cat as Duane, no more Bobby playing Kryten as if he’s pre-menstrual.
    Pree had a def. Cassandra vibe – but i’ve no problem with that either, Trojan is a hard act to follow…
    All in all this was great episode – anyone that says otherwise is in denial :P

  78. > People are saying “well, we’ll see on a second watch” – shouldn’t have to do that on a comedy.

    So comedy should only be as good as the first viewing? Hmmm.

    If I’m missing better jokes, or plot details, then they’ve fucked up.

  79. That’s mainly because it isn’t that funny. People are saying “well, we’ll see on a second watch” – shouldn’t have to do that on a comedy. The ideas though are great, they’re just not well executed. Lots of funny small stuff is missed with messy direction.

    I fucking wish I was enjoying this though, and I’m still watching and I’ll still buy the dvd in the hope there’s a RDXI.

    The best comedy tends to be a slow burn IMO, something where you laugh a little and then picking up a little more each time. Dwarfcast has already touched on small lines and moments that I missed.

  80. I didn’t think there were any individual jokes as good as the Cat’s knowledge of Rimmer’s moose questions in Trojan. But it was generally a very enjoyable episode – even though, as others have said, it was reminiscent of several older episodes. I’ve just checked John Hoare’s ep 2 set report, and he mentioned it there as well: “the other two plots could be viewed two ways – perfect for Red Dwarf, or ideas that rely on mashing together elements from the show’s past too much.”

    Lister’s “It’s you talking!” responses to Rimmer’s questions about “that annoying whining noise” were funnier in the episode than in isolated promotional clips, but I’m not that keen on the idea that Rimmer genuinely was irritated by his own voice. It felt like he really should have been hearing signs of some specific problem with the ship that would later become relevant to the plot. But it’s a minor problem as it’s quite a brief joke!

  81. >The best comedy tends to be a slow burn IMO, something where you laugh a little and then picking up a little more each time. Dwarfcast has already touched on small lines and moments that I missed.

    I agree with this. I didn’t hear many of Phoenix Nights’ best jokes on first viewing, but anyone who doubts that its a classic series is a tool.

  82. Note from the recording re: Taiwan Tony. I’m not sure if Cappsy noticed/recalls this as he was sat next to me, but during the Taiwan Tony reveal (which was a VT), Robert Llewellyn was stood right in front of us, between us and the monitor, watching it played in, and… I don’t know, he didn’t seem comfortable, didn’t crack a smile at all, looked very serious. Of course, he will have read it, acted it and possibly already seen the scene many times at that point so maybe it was simply that there was no novelty at all but… I’m not sure that he was comfortable with the material. I could be wrong, but that was the feeling I got on the night.

  83. I must say my family laughed noticibly less than in Trojan. For most of the episode I was the only one laughing and they were watching properly.

  84. Lister’s “It’s you talking!” responses to Rimmer’s questions about “that annoying whining noise” were funnier in the episode than in isolated promotional clips, but I’m not that keen on the idea that Rimmer genuinely was irritated by his own voice. It felt like he really should have been hearing signs of some specific problem with the ship that would later become relevant to the plot. But it’s a minor problem as it’s quite a brief joke!

    Which has already been done by Jon Culshaw as Michael McIntyre.

  85. After tonight I am kinda dreading Dear Dave!

    Also where are the skutters?

  86. My new ringtone is Rebecca Blackstone saying ‘crazzzaaayyyyyyyyy’.

  87. I’m giving it 6.5/10 right now, but I really want to watch it a second time before cementing in any opinions on stuff like Taiwan Tony (I admit it DID jar with me but are we being too sensitive over it?), though the Lister-being-his-own father material was decent enough and Pree will go down in history as one of the best guest characters ever. Also, the AMAZING effects shots! The scoop!!

    Rebecca Blackstone…sexy voice! :D

  88. For the record I did laugh plenty of times and there was a brilliant stand out scene so that’s pretty much all I ask for in a comedy show.

    Only time will tell if it’s truly classic Dwarf but I enjoyed it and that’s enough for now.

  89. Wasn’t the joke with Taiwan Tony that they were asking his advice on whether Chinese whispers is racist when he sounds racist.

  90. Definitely getting a ‘Meltdown’ vibe from the ‘Lemons’ trailer. Oh, if it’s anywhere near as fantastic as ‘Meltdown,’ I’m a happy man!

    EDIT: By the way, it’ll be nice to get off Red Dwarf next week, the series needs to stretch its wings a little.

  91. I keep hearing everyone bleating about racist – Jeeyz, in context of the original question is this racist? Maybe it’s ironic? Judging a character which is really a driod or vending machine – how can you categorise a machine within a certain race or ethnic background or what have ye? Fooksakes, calm yer jets I say?
    You going to get all upset about a religious figure being poked about with in ep3 and start burning flags?
    Just my initial reaction – is the reaction to the overreaction.

  92. Bizarrely, the Lister’s dad story was really touching. Interesting to see an exploration of Listers’ self loathing rather than Rimmer’s. It’s like The Inquisitor part 2

  93. Taking a time to get used to seeing RD in HD – it looks so clean and tidy. Also the model shots are nice but now in HD I feel the illusion is lost much more.

  94. Need to see it again to make up my mind, but initial reaction: at least as good as last week. An awful lot crammed into the half hour again, including little details like Cat’s magazine, which I didn’t spot. (I get the feeling these episodes will yield a fair bit on repeated viewings.) Felt like more could’ve been made of a few things, like the laughing gas. Not sure how I feel about the ship being so full of machines with artificial intelligence for the crew to interract with. I know we’ve seen talking dispensers, toasters etc., even a toilet before now, but moments like “Hello Garby!” and TT referring to “my friend, Mr Cat” are odd. And where are the skutters?
    Negatives: Didn’t much like the medi-droid or the look of Pree, and the chinese whispers material was a bit weak.
    Positives: Enjoyed the crew being in peril. Better performances this week. Everyone, especially Craig, was spot on. All the Lister’s dad stuff was brilliant, performance-wise and writing – the scene before the break was the highlight of the episode for me, with the possible exception of FUCKING HELL THE SCOOP!!!! Effects, models, music, all great.
    Really dunno what to expect next week.
    I enjoyed my sweeties.

  95. I don’t know if you’ve already talked about this as I can’t listen to the broadcast yet but that was actually very dark. A man getting drunk, wracked with self hatred trying to ruin his own life, told via a very silly, very funny story. Clever stuff. Doug’s still got it!

  96. The two funniest bits of the Lister Dad/Lister Son conversations: the guitar reveal, and Lister going all Kevin the Teenager as he stormed out.

  97. I’m doing that whole dreamy thing listening to Rebecca Blackstone…who else shivers every time she does her little accent-y thingies…*yes*

    I am not jealous in the slightest that you got to interview her. At all.

  98. I don’t shiver but there is definitely some sort of embarrassing bodily reaction. Yes.

  99. “Once you’re a Red Dwarfer, you never back y’allll!”

    I love RebBecca!

  100. Man if I was still at school watching this I tell you that Beccy Blackstone would have me exercising my rights in no time….. :D

  101. We need Starbug. The set from series 3-6 where you had the cargo and table area behind the cockpit housed so many classic scenes. Hopefully it will be back for XI and Holly (Hattie)

  102. I think the main problem with the episode was there was too much visible neck from the supporting cast.

  103. The Elmo stuff reminded me of how great that medical computer was in ‘Bodysnatcher,’ and seemed poor in comparison.

  104. The Elmo stuff reminded me of how great that medical computer was in ‘Bodysnatcher,’ and seemed poor in comparison.

    That’s why we need Holly back for stuff like that. Yeh I know that would have mess things up for the Pree storyline but still……

    Also wouldn’t it be more funnier if a skutter had a drill? Another with the air and then another with that pink water spraying Lister even before he’s got the drill?

  105. >We need Starbug. The set from series 3-6 where you had the cargo and table area behind the cockpit housed so many classic scenes. Hopefully it will be back for XI and Holly (Hattie)

    Look forwards, not backwards, would be my advice.

  106. Agree with the review back in December. Too much going on and final conclusion is mixed. I hope this is the worst of the run.

  107. P2P sounds like the vending machine from Only The Good.

  108. >We need Starbug. The set from series 3-6 where you had the cargo and table area behind the cockpit housed so many classic scenes. Hopefully it will be back for XI and Holly (Hattie)

    Look forwards, not backwards, would be my advice.

    I don’t like the sound of that. But understand and I have to a certain extent.

  109. Nice to have a little mention of Holly, though.

  110. > Has this computer been available to install along?

    Kryten said something about getting Pree from a derelict.

  111. Good point in the DwarfCast, Cappsy. What the fuck were those machines? Reminded me of the garbage robots in the Doctor Who story ‘Paradise Towers’ (not in a good way).

  112. Biggest plot hole in RD ever. Where were the 36D’s? :(

  113. Loving the Pree Dwarfcast link! Probably the best one! Thanks again for a great Dwarfcast! Off to bed now. Night, night all.

  114. in context of the original question is this racist? Maybe it’s ironic?

    Yes, that was my take on it. I’ll admit that the machine’s accent made me wince a bit (mainly because I guessed what some people’s reaction would be) but the accent is SO over the top, I wouldn’t count it as racist. It’s just too (intentionally) ridiculous. Those looking for a punchline, the irony of the Taiwan Tom, (Or whatever his name is) juxtaposed with the question IS the punchline. Sort of.

    Anyway, I liked it. While I think Trojan may have had the better story I found this one funnier, and my initial reaction to it was better than Trojan. (That’s not to say I disliked Trojan. It grew on me, and I think it may have more rewatch value than this one.)

    >So comedy should only be as good as the first viewing? Hmmm.

    I wouldn’t say that, but a good comedy should be funny on it’s first viewing, even if you notice other funny stuff on rewatching. In my case it worked in this aim. In tennorman’s case it didn’t. Fair enough, we all respond differently.

    Hopefully next week’s will be a cracker. I was a bit worried concerning the historical figure subject matter but that gag in the trailer with that character’s reaction made me laugh.

  115. Um. So Cat takes the last of the anesthetic…

    …then Pree releases laughing gas.

  116. Just watched the repeat – love it, looking forward to Lemons!

  117. I think most of my favourite comedies are ones that seem to get better with each viewing or at least benefit from repeat viewings. Definitely the case with films. I remember not being a massive fan of quite a bit of season four when I first saw it (Justice, White Hole, Meltdown) but now those same episodes are amongst my favourites. Justice may even top my list of favourites.

    I really enjoyed this episode for the most part at the recording (Kerry Shale is really the main problem for me!), didn’t enjoy it so much on broadcast and am really looking forward to watching it again tomorrow! Still amazed at how people’s opinions are varying on this episode so greatly.

    ALSO, and I picked this up at recording, why is Pree a brunette when Rimmer asks for a blonde?

    EDIT: Seb is saying on TOS that this is to do with the slicked hair making her hair appear darker than it actually is…

  118. Um. So Cat takes the last of the anesthetic…

    …then Pree releases laughing gas.

    If she’s not malevolent, why did she do that? I kinda thought the reason there’s none left is because it’s been taken for this purpose, but if she’s not an evil force why would she do that? Prepare for that eventuality… well, because she predicted it I suppose. Hmm. Anyway, without a rewatch I can’t remember if we learn that they’re out of anaesthetic before or after Pree was booted so may be moot.

  119. After a rewatch i’m going to give the episode more praise than i did originally. I still feel that there are some silly parts that are jarring (Kryten pulling Lister’s tooth especially) but on second watch i quite like the plot. Pree is an interesting villain as she doesn’t actually mean anything malevolent in her actions, she just follows the rules. Messing up B deck is a nice touch as it shows again how Rimmer would have messed up fixing the drive plate in series 1.

    One of the biggest problems for me is the focus on Lister being his own father. Even as a kid watching series 7 i didn’t like that revelation and it still doesn’t sit well with me now. Lister acting like two different people also seems odd but i suppose it’s a good way to explore this father/son side of his character.

    The whole Taiwan Tony thing doesn’t bother me, it’s more of a silly stereotype joke rather than bringing up skin colour. Seems no more offensive to me than Kryten’s senile spare head having a Yorkshire accent.

    So yeah… sorry, Pree. i feel i judged the episode far too harshly on first viewing, i still believe that Trojan is a far superior episode but this was a good follow up.

  120. Just like Trojan last week….ive enjoyed this episode more on multiple viewings. Dont know why but watching red dwarf with ad breaks kinda takes me out the atmoshere of the show. This was a fun episode….listers plot having the funniest material. Some jokes still feel very season 8, but the good far outweighs the bad.

    Im suprised no ones mentinioned this yet but did anyone spot the canaries uniform in the airlock? That was a really nice touch!!

  121. G&T Admin

    Seems no more offensive to me than Kryten’s senile spare head having a Yorkshire accent.

    It’s a Lancashire accent, you massive racist.

    Comedy Chinese accents do have quite an unpleasant past and I think that’s what got to me with this. As I said in the DwarfCast I know for a fact that it’s not meant in the wrong way, and I know there’s plenty of irony mixed in there, but I don’t think the episode does a good enough job of making its intentions clear with that plot.

    Rewatching it now. Better on a second viewing, definitely. Rimmer has stacks of great lines “a condom machine and two Lilette dispensers” was ace, along with almost everything else he said.

  122. It’s a Lancashire accent, you massive racist.

    Ahh i knew I’d get that wrong!

    In regards to Rimmer, he definitely shone more the second time and as P2P said in the Dwarfcast, his “That’s not a man” line seemed to completely drift by unnoticed. I also loved the way Rimmer walked into the bunk room at the start, It was just perfectly done and completely captured the physical side of the character.

  123. Yeah just watched a second time and enjoyed more on the rewatch. I think there’s so much to take in when you watch a new episode for the first time – my analytical hardcore RD fan-brain goes into overdrive. Found the same last week too.

    Rimmer has stacks of great lines “a condom machine and two Lilette dispensers” was ace, along with almost everything else he said.

    Hear, hear. I especially liked:

    PREE: Mindful of the Space Pollution Act, JMC policy dictates the ship dispose of itself by flying straight into the nearest sun.
    CAT: What?!
    KRYTEN: What about us?
    RIMMER: Never mind “us”, what about ME?

  124. > ALSO, and I picked this up at recording, why is Pree a brunette when Rimmer asks for a blonde?

    She’s more obviously a blonde when she first appears.

    Sadly, I liked the episode less on second viewing…but I’m now thinking about the negative stuff too much! The performances are gonna help this one keep the rewatchability factor (Chris in particular, despite this being a Craig episode). The Chinese Whispers stuff shouldn’t have gone beyond the first scene with Rimmer and Kryten.

  125. I have mixed feelings about this episode. Negative first – I understand that the Chinese whispers gag obviously wasn’t intended as racist. It was supposed to be ironic that a vending machine with a stereotypical Chinese accent was being asked that question. But I’m not sure how well that came across.

    I liked both the main plots and thought Craig was great. So was Rebecca Blackstone. :)

    It was quite sobering to see Lister’s drunken thoughts about himself. Fortunately it was also funny.

  126. I thought that Trojan was a solid start to the series and it gave me some hope but…

    I think that episode was astonishingly poor. The plot elements didn`t gel together at all and I think it must be a contender for one of the worst structured Dwarf episodes in history. It felt like a collection of scenes randomly bolted together.

    There was very little humour and some of the attempted jokes were cringeworthy. The Chinese Whispers running gag, for example, and the joke about Rimmer whining was sooo predictable and carried on for far too long.

    The ending should have been dramatic too but somehow wasn`t. That`s probably for a number of reasons. Doug`s direction is an issue, the performances to a certain extent and the non-threatening `spike machines`.

    I actually went into the episode with high hopes too…

  127. > The Chinese Whispers stuff shouldn’t have gone beyond the first scene with Rimmer and Kryten.

    Personally I think it shouldn`t have been mentioned at all. The sad thing is that you could tell from the tone of that scene that the subject was going to be returned to again and again like the phone had been in Trojan. I could feel the impending doom. :)

  128. That’s why we need Holly back for stuff like that. Yeh I know that would have mess things up for the Pree storyline but still……
    Also wouldn’t it be more funnier if a skutter had a drill? Another with the air and then another with that pink water spraying Lister even before he’s got the drill?

    We could have had Pree and the Skutters though, we don’t have to have Holly to have the Skutters. And yes, that would have been much funnier. See: “Not level”.

    Lister’s “It’s you talking!” responses to Rimmer’s questions about “that annoying whining noise” were funnier in the episode than in isolated promotional clips, but I’m not that keen on the idea that Rimmer genuinely was irritated by his own voice. It felt like he really should have been hearing signs of some specific problem with the ship that would later become relevant to the plot. But it’s a minor problem as it’s quite a brief joke!

    But… the whining noise that Rimmer could hear was the damaged ship, not *actually* his own voice! Lister was taking the piss.

    Doesn’t work though. It sets it up as if it’s something personally to do with Rimmer. But it’s not, it’s a general ship-bound problem.

    No, I don’t think it does! What’s so “personal” about Rimmer hearing something that Lister doesn’t?

    I feel like there’s a lot of bending over to excuse the show, because it’s so close to people’s hearts. But there is some seriously dodgy stuff going on.

    …or it could be that you’re looking for issues because you don’t like it.

    Im suprised no ones mentinioned this yet but did anyone spot the canaries uniform in the airlock? That was a really nice touch!!

    I did not! Need to watch it again :)

    Um. So Cat takes the last of the anesthetic…
    …then Pree releases laughing gas.

    Yes… because Cat says he’s just heard they’re down to their last container of anaesthetic. It’s not spelt out for you but I’d say it;s a pretty safe bet that Pree has taken possession of the laughing gas as she already knows she’ll need to use it.

    ALSO, and I picked this up at recording, why is Pree a brunette when Rimmer asks for a blonde?
    EDIT: Seb is saying on TOS that this is to do with the slicked hair making her hair appear darker than it actually is…

    What Seb said. She is definitely blonde:

  129. I was mesmerised by Pree’s eyes … :)
    I watched it again, i still liked it. Cant believe the ‘its not a man, its Lister!’ Gag didnt get a laugh. I laughed at it !

  130. Howard Goodall’s music on the climactic scene was bloody superb.

  131. I really liked that episode. Wish we had Hattie back though. The Chinese Whispers thing was the only negative, because it didn’t really seem to go anywhere.

  132. I enjoyed all the nods back, and Lister talking to himself was absolutely ace. (After all, Future Echoes IS my favourite episode EVER, and it was great to see a continuation of it – kind of!)

    Didn’t care for the Chinese whispers, and I wasn’t overly fond of Pree all in all, but who cares. I had fun.

  133. I cant understand why so many people on TOS hate it. Ok it wasnt completely amazing but its still better than anything else on telly atm! Cant believe some people find TT offensive either! Thats rediculous, next people will say they find the ‘welsh’ joke in VI offensive or the ‘black head’ one in VII .

    I found F&S quite clever writing. Especially exploring Listers self loathing as he has matured. Its been picked up a few times like in ‘timeslides’ where he was sick of his life.
    Also i gathered Lister must have told Rimmer about the Oroborus story, as Rimmer wasnt present in that episode

  134. G&T Admin

    > Cant believe some people find TT offensive either! Thats rediculous, next people will say they find the ‘welsh’ joke in VI offensive or the ‘black head’ one in VII .

    While I didn’t actually find TT offensive, the two things you’ve just described are a world away from comedy Asian accents.

  135. Not as good as Trojan but a solid episode I thought – the scene with Lister talking to himself was *great*. Best thing in the whole episode, solid gags all the way through that scene. The Chinese Whispers plotline really was weak, though.

    I actually thought this was a well-directed show – the scenes with Lister being chased out of the airlock were very well shot and cut.

    Lastly, what the fuck was up with Kryten’s face in this episode?! The new mask seemed especially weird this week, when he scrunched his face up toward the end. I honestly don’t know why they’ve moved away from the design and process they had before. I daresay it’s to do with the RED cameras but the new colour lights really badly.

  136. Also i gathered Lister must have told Rimmer about the Oroborus story, as Rimmer wasnt present in that episode

    i found that a little weird when watching, hearing Rimmer talk about an episode he wasn’t actually around for. Or maybe it just gave me bad flashbacks to a lot of crap Rimmer-free scenes in VII.

  137. I feel a lot better about this ep now I’ve had some rewatches, just didn’t enjoy it the first time round like I did with Trojan.

    It’s interesting to see the difference in opinions between everyone on this ep, looks like a 50-50 love-hate split? Also a lot of those who liked Trojan seemed to dislike Fathers & Suns and vice versa?

    I think its fair to say that Doug and the cast have got an impossible task at pleasing us lot! :)

  138. I enjoyed it a whole lot more on the second watch. I think I must have been too concerned about whether stuff would be cut the first time around to really enjoy it. I did’t even mind Kerry Shale anywhere near as much as I did yesterday. The problems seemed to be magnified yesterday when today I found them to be minor problems in an otherwise great episode. I’d rather them not be there but they definitely didn’t effect my enjoyment of the episode as a whole this time.

  139. One of the biggest problems for me is the focus on Lister being his own father. Even as a kid watching series 7 i didn’t like that revelation and it still doesn’t sit well with me now.

    I would agree, I never liked that concept back in the day. However, I really enjoyed the Lister Jr/Lister Sr scene in F&S so for me it feels like, after a mere 15 years, we finally got some decent jokes out of Ouroboros.

  140. She IS a mad goth bastard! Black nail polish innit? Lovely.

  141. I’ve watched it twice now and I’m no closer to liking it. I don’t detest it like I do with some of latterday-Dwarf, but neither do I particularly like it. It just left me a little cold.

    The biggest complaint is that it only made me laugh once and that was during Lister’s chat to himself. During Rimmer’s discussion with Kryten about Pree’s look, I smiled…and then started to frown as the joke was milked until it turned to cheese. Yes, Rimmer wants someone good looking who he can lust after. We get it.

    Again, the structure of it feels off. There was obviously a hint that Pree had assisted Lister in his father/son talk, but why not tie it together properly and ditch the Chinese Whispers nonsense which threatens to turn the thing into a sketch show? Lister going to the dentist can fuck off too. Nothing good came out of that little storyline.

    My only other positive was Howard Goodall’s music, particularly where SuperDave flies through the scoop. The rest? Meh.

    I was 70-30 pro/con with Trojan. Complete opposite with this one. My Dad was *very* enthusiastic about Trojan when I spoke to him at the weekend but I’m wondering what he, and other casual viewers, will make of this one with its references to the events of a feeble episode from 15 years ago. “Yes, Dad…Lister is his own father. I would show you the episode where that happens but for the problem that it’s about as mediocre as this one”.

    >I’m sure this is going to sound like a weird criticism for a sit-com, but (based on the two eps so far) it’s being played a bit too much for laughs. Sat here with White Hole playing… it’s all being played very straight. The gags being pulled through by the circumstances.

    Indeed. One of the few positives I had from this was that Rebecca Blackstone played her role completely straight and while I didn’t ever believe the crew were in danger, she at least tried to sell it to us.

    >Lastly, what the fuck was up with Kryten’s face in this episode?!

    Absolutely. I made this observation above somewhere. It’s really weird.

    >After tonight I am kinda dreading Dear Dave!

    I have to agree. I saw Dear Dave recorded and didn’t really get a Red Dwarf feel from it. When the synopsis (and B plot) was revealed, I was concerned. Now, I’m very, very afraid. I watched Fathers and Sons with a friend and felt kind of embarrassed by it , to be honest. It’s kind of sapped the optimism that Trojan built up for me.

  142. My honest opinion (and I say this in full understanding that I will subsequently be crucified for thinking it)…

    Most fans in here are so committed to the idea that ‘its like classic Dwarf’ (and have been since before the first episode aired), that everything is being done to make the episodes fit that mold and excuse away the (quite glaring) similarities to series 7 and 8.

    I fully expect to come back to this site in a few months, after the dust has settled and perspective has kicked in, and see you all referring to this series in the same terms as 7 and 8. At the moment you’re all WAY to close to it, as can be seen from the embarrassing level of ‘explaining away’ of faults that is being done on here.

  143. Lister going to the dentist can fuck off too. Nothing good came out of that little storyline.

    This one was weird. I can understand that they used the dentist because of the laughing gas at the end and due to the Lister conversation. But there really needed to be a big laugh at the end of it and there definitely wasn`t. The joke of, `man claims he won`t feel pain and then screams/legs it` is as old as the hills and shouldn`t be difficult to pull it off reasonably. It was executed abysmally in this episode.

    I agree about Howard Goodall`s quality music though.

  144. And I footnote that by saying that I am a big Dwarf fan, and I’m actually enjoying this series so far. But I enjoyed 7 and 8 too.

  145. G&T Admin

    I fully expect to come back to this site in a few months, after the dust has settled and perspective has kicked in

    But at least in the meantime we have you looking down on us from high, dispensing your own faultless perspective.

  146. Just a quick question: Isn’t Rimmer’s line “That’s not a man, it’s Lister” supposed to be a joke? I found it really funny, but there is absolutely no audience reaction to it whatsoever.

  147. Have now watched the episode three times and can conclude the following:

    – The medi-bot and denti-bot are both absolutely awful in execution. I’d argue they’re my least favourite things in Red Dwarf history.
    – The Lister Father/Son chat is some of the best stuff in Red Dwarf history. Didn’t realise it on first viewing but it really is funny and revealing lots more about the character’s inner yearnings
    – The episode is MUCH better after multiple viewings, caughts LOTS of little lines/details that I missed on first showing
    – I know it has divided people but I enjoyed the nods to the previous episodes
    – Taiwan Tony was nothing to get annoyed about. Sure, the voice could be considered offensive but it was a whole lot of nothing when you lot at it. It failed for laughs but it clearly wasn’t meant to offend. It was just there.
    – Kryten hasn’t yet had his moment in this series IMO (the phonecall in Trojan was fun but didn’t feel fully ‘Kryten’ to me)
    – Chris Barrie is perhaps even funnier when he’s not front and centre. His reactions throughout the episode are fantastic.
    – The final scene in the bunkroom seemed anticlimatic. Not offensive but definitely not a strong way to end the episode.
    – I hope there is a pay-off at some point (not necessarily in RDX) to the Kochanski/Holly references. Doesn’t need to be an appearance per se but some build to these points that have now been addressed more than once in BtE and RDX.

    Probably utter bullshit but those are my two dollarpounds

  148. My honest opinion (and I say this in full understanding that I will subsequently be crucified for thinking it)…

    Most fans in here are so committed to the idea that ‘its like classic Dwarf’ (and have been since before the first episode aired), that everything is being done to make the episodes fit that mold and excuse away the (quite glaring) similarities to series 7 and 8.
    I fully expect to come back to this site in a few months, after the dust has settled and perspective has kicked in, and see you all referring to this series in the same terms as 7 and 8. At the moment you’re all WAY to close to it, as can be seen from the embarrassing level of ‘explaining away’ of faults that is being done on here.

    Or there’s that crazy idea people have different opinions to you?

  149. I am personally enjoying it *way* more than series VII or VIII – for me there’s been at least one absolutely stand-out, hilarious sequence in each episode so far (“Was he Swedish?” and Dave vs Dave), but I do agree that there is a lot of “explaining away” occuring. I don’t think (again, based on two shows so far) this series will end up anywhere near as reviled as VII or VIII though.

    One thing – did Dwarf always do this A Plot, B Plot (this week, even C Plot) guff? It seems to me like back in the day there was just THE plot. Crew wake up, their whole lives have been a computer game. Crew forced to enter Western artifical reality etc. There was less of this ‘Friends’ style breaking the gang off into groups to do their own little things. Or am I misremembering?

  150. Rather than the medibot and dentibot I think it would have been funnier if they had just used Kryten and a couple of Skutters.

  151. VII, after two episodes : Tikka (7/10), Stoke Me a Clipper (6/10)

    X after two episodes : Trojan (7/10) , Fathers and Suns (4/10)

    Colour me concerned. It’s 1997 and I’m getting a sinking feeling.

    [1=Back in the Red Part Three , 10 = Thanks For The Memory]

  152. Thinking about the episode today I noticed a few similarities to Dark Star (other than the usual), all of which I like. There’s the female computer with the cool, logical approach and voice to match, Lister in his space suit in open space, and Lister reasoning with Pree and getting her to shut down, similar to the way Doolittle uses logic to persuade the bomb not to go off.

  153. >P2P sounds like the vending machine from Only The Good.

    …Slattery?

  154. One thing – did Dwarf always do this A Plot, B Plot (this week, even C Plot) guff? It seems to me like back in the day there was just THE plot. Crew wake up, their whole lives have been a computer game. Crew forced to enter Western artifical reality etc. There was less of this ‘Friends’ style breaking the gang off into groups to do their own little things. Or am I misremembering?

    I don`t think that you`re misremembering. A typical Dwarf episode in days gone by (and I`m sure people will come up with dozens of exceptions) might start with a comedy scene to get some laughs (Wilma, female topless boxing, Czech traffic warden etc.) before getting on with the plot. Trojan still had that with the pig racing (a remake of the aforementioned boxing) but then it also added another running gag and another plot point before getting to the Trojan stuff. Overdone.

  155. Just a quick question: Isn’t Rimmer’s line “That’s not a man, it’s Lister” supposed to be a joke? I found it really funny, but there is absolutely no audience reaction to it whatsoever.

    Yes! I laughed at that and my laugh was stifled by the complete silence from the audience.

  156. >…Slattery?

    Will get you nowhere.

    Surely that’s Twattery?

  157. Ratings soon. I’m going with 1.2million.

  158. VII, after two episodes : Tikka (7/10), Stoke Me a Clipper (6/10)X after two episodes : Trojan (7/10) , Fathers and Suns (4/10) Colour me concerned. It’s 1997 and I’m getting a sinking feeling. [1=Back in the Red Part Three , 10 = Thanks For The Memory]

    I much preferred F&S to Stoke. In fact I even enjoyed it more than Tikka. VII is my least favourte series, though. I suppose it has something in common with X in far as Kryten had a crap mask in that series too.

  159. I just re-watched Fathers & Suns. Then watched Back In The Red on Youtube, and I can honestly say that, in my opinion, the opening scene of BITR is closer in tone/writing/acting/EVERYTHING to the early Red Dwarf than any scene in Red Dwarf X so far.

  160. G&T Admin

    It bloody isn’t. Early Red Dwarf was funny.

  161. I just re-watched Fathers & Suns. Then watched Back In The Red on Youtube, and I can honestly say that, in my opinion, the opening scene of BITR is closer in tone/writing/acting/EVERYTHING to the early Red Dwarf than any scene in Red Dwarf X so far.

    Neither of them are similar to early Red Dwarf. Series VIII and Series X have their similarities though.

  162. Once again subplots seem to be the thing that sinks the episode, I actually really like the main 2 plots and think they worked well together but the Medi-bot and Chinese whispers stuff was nothing short of dreadful……the kinda seemed also to go against the kinda dark humour of the rest of the episode and did a huge disservice to what could have been a strong monster of the week episode.

  163. Just twigged this is where I recognised that gag in the Lemons trailer from: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA1sx-vyWVk#t=43s
    Mel Brooks’ character using “Jesus” as a swear doesn’t make sense though, whereas Lister doing that is obviously fine.

  164. As I’ve mentioned I really didn’t like Taiwan Tony at the recording, I didn’t like him on broadcast but I didn’t mind him anywhere near as much when I rewatched the episode today. HOWEVER, I wish we were getting a Doug commentary just so I could understand the thinking behind that scene. I really find it hard to believe that the same guy who wrote some of the wonderfully clever and well written things we’ve seen in the last two episodes thought “And then Cat will go talk to this food dispenser and he will be SO ASIAN. It will be HILARIOUS”.

  165. I guess the rationale is that “we’re sending up the idea of racial stereotypes by doing a racial stereotype. Aaaaaahh”.

  166. Ian Symes / October 12, 2012 at 2:16 pm / #

    It bloody isn’t. Early Red Dwarf was funny.

    Quoted for MAXIMUM TRUTH.

  167. I need to watch it again, but Fathers & Suns felt like a Series VII story with Series VIII direction and production values. It’s still stronger than VII and VIII as a whole, but it felt… I don’t know, off. The story itself was strong (save for the Chinese Whispers arc – why have a character comment on how it’s racist to call it “Chinese Whispers” and then have a preposterous Asian caricature vending machine later in the episode?) and Lister’s conversations with his dad were brilliant – the way the Pree and Dad stories tied into each other at the end was nicely done, too – but it didn’t feel especially funny for the most part.

    I didn’t have a problem with ME-DI-BOT or Denti-Bot. They seem fairly consistent with what we’ve seen in the past, and while you could argue that the medical unit we see in Series II is clearly less sophisticated it’s easy to handwave that away by mentioning the Series VIII ship rebuild. The ship’s smaller now, but obviously some stuff had stuck around.

    For some reason Pree put me in mind of Farscape, which is stupid because there are exactly zero characters like Pree in the show.

    In summary: Strong story for the most part, but not especially funny. Once I’ve rewatched it I’ll write my review over on HULG.

  168. Seems no more offensive to me than Kryten’s senile spare head having a Yorkshire accent.

    It’s a Lancashire accent, you massive racist.

    I’d love to see an episode where Kryten has to use that head. Sitting there insulting everyone.

  169. If there was ever an episode dying to be re-edited I’d have to say it’s this one, the plot was great, the direction was great and if you could get rid of the Chinese Whispers and Medi-bot I think there’s a great episode in there.

  170. What’s with the upside-down extreme danger signs during the airlock sequence? And yes I’m watching it a third time and I pretty much agree with Ben. Enjoyable story with some nice fun scenes. It’s just missing the solid woofers that Trojan offered.

  171. What’s with the upside-down extreme danger signs during the airlock sequence? And yes I’m watching it a third time and I pretty much agree with Ben. Enjoyable story with some nice fun scenes. It’s just missing the solid woofers that Trojan offered.

    I was trying to figure them out! The one to the left of Prees monitor is the right way up but some letters are back to front. Very strange.

  172. Right. The only answer is for Holly Willoughby to erm play Holly next series. Yum. So it lost 300k plus – I think as F&S has had mixed reaction and Lemon’s preview was piss poor next weeks could be under 1 million….yikes.

    Optimism, there.

    Staying above 1m is a fantastic result (particularly given how many people the C4 plane crash hoovered up), and while I’m sure it’ll tail off a little more, it bodes really well for the rest of the series. I don’t think anything above 800K or so could be considered disappointing – and with this week’s result I’d bet (without wanting to tempt fate) there’s a real chance we could stay above that for the remaining four weeks.

  173. Right. The only answer is for Holly Willoughby to erm play Holly next series. Yum. So it lost 300k plus – I think as F&S has had mixed reaction and Lemon’s preview was piss poor next weeks could be under 1 million….yikes.

    Optimism, there.
    Staying above 1m is a fantastic result (particularly given how many people the C4 plane crash hoovered up), and while I’m sure it’ll tail off a little more, it bodes really well for the rest of the series. I don’t think anything above 800K or so could be considered disappointing – and with this week’s result I’d bet (without wanting to tempt fate) there’s a real chance we could stay above that for the remaining four weeks.

    Love the Willy Fog pic and your reply wasn’t bad either!

  174. Surely TT is a small drop in the ocean compared to the guest spot in next episode……
    Maybe as a better gag TT had say a Scottish accent instead?

  175. Since this series began there seems to be a lot of talk of VII and VIII without any real acknowledgment that they’re completely different beasts.

  176. Series VII and VIII are completely different beasts.

    But they both have something in common in that they are both shit pretty much.

  177. Surely TT is a small drop in the ocean compared to the guest spot in next episode……

    Maybe as a better gag TT had say a Scottish accent instead?

    Here you ya racist walloper, leave us fine Scots out of this!
    Still fuming and complaining about last weeks “your brains are smaller than the salad section at a Scottish supermarket” here as it is.

    Racist bawbags, the lot o’ ye!

  178. G&T Admin

    bossk is right, everyone leave the Scotch alone, they’ve got enough to worry about as it is.

  179. G&T Admin

    Finally seen it. I was in hysterics over Taiwan Tony at the recording, but it didn’t work as well for me in the finished episode. Still liked it, though – and actually, liked the whole Chinese Whispers plot (though I agree the ending doesn’t really work). It’s nice to have something different that Dwarf hasn’t done before, and I just enjoy the whole meta-level of the joke. I also liked that it was a few ultra-short scenes – it didn’t feel like it outstayed its welcome for me, unlike the phone stuff last week.

    The other standout scene was obviously the Lister/Lister one, and I DID like it… but I do have a massive problem with Pree being the one responsible for helping Lister predict the future. I’d much rather it was just Lister predicting EXACTLY what he would do the next morning. That’s character – introducing Pree turns it into… just plot.

    Rest of the episode I just can’t get excited about. I see flashes of brilliance, but it’s spoilt by pedestrian line-by-line stuff. I stand by my assertion in the audience recording report that the first and last scene were particularly terrible for this. I’ll try and cover that it my review next week… unless Episode 3 SUDDENLY convinces me otherwise. It might!

    I will defend MED-I-BOT, though – I like the idea that that’s what JMC would regard to be comforting in that kind of situation. I didn’t find it that funny, but neither did I find it annoying.

  180. ‘Eighhtyyy daayss around the world…’ Sorry, got distracted.

  181. Here I am; Rigadon…

    Anyway.

    > but I do have a massive problem with Pree being the one responsible for helping Lister predict the future. I’d much rather it was just Lister predicting EXACTLY what he would do the next morning

    It’s a good point but my incessant need to tie stuff together means I want some kind of link to the other plot, even just a little one. Can’t remember if it’s explicitly mentioned that Pree helped him with predicting his responses. Might be just conjecture from the Dwarf massiv.

  182. But she couldn’t see or predict what Lister had done because it was unfinished, in limbo. Not written down or logged.

    It’s very HAL like, I predict the AE-35 unit would fail, but it was a lie. I just found it all a bit messy.

  183. I found the episode to be a little uneven, but not unenjoyable. Just a few flaky bits that probably should’ve been trimmed.

    Speaking of which, if someone were to Fan Edit this episode (not naming any names here), which parts would be best cut out?

  184. Here’s four stinkers in a row:

    * Lister and Cat in the Dentist waiting room.
    * Lister talking to the Dentist
    * Lister running away from the drill (on a bicycle)
    * Cat talking to Taiwan Tony

    I just watched it again and was starting to think it wasn’t so bad, then that all happened and killed it stone dead (alongside the finale and a few other annoyances). It would be quite easy to cut the first two thirds of the episode down, but you’d still be stuck with the conclusion of the episode where there’s the unfunny callback to Chinese Whispers and the flat ending.

  185. G&T Admin

    There’s the feeling I got when analysing it for review – there’s only a few minor problems with the first two thirds of the episode, then wallop, you’re hit by a wall of shite.

  186. Cat talking to TT was awful, it was a lead balloon. The accent was too strong and Cat’ s reaction was totally flat. I don’t think it was Danny’s acting at all, it was just the line, it didn’t comprehend.

  187. > Can’t remember if it’s explicitly mentioned that Pree helped him with predicting his responses.

    Lister says he’s got a job for her. We can assume that predicting what he would do was her job. Though, the fact that we can’t be 100% about this shows how the episode only just holds up.

  188. Information has been taken on board. Already editing. Trimmed down the ‘Lister and Cat in the Dentist waiting room’, and then cut out everything until Lister Jr’s final confrontation with Lister Sr. Also have completely removed the “Chinese Whispers” storyline, just to see if the plot can stand up without it. Although the Boyz suddenly recover from the laughing gas rather quickly, for the most part, it does.

  189. Information has been taken on board. Already editing. Trimmed down the ‘Lister and Cat in the Dentist waiting room’, and then cut out everything until Lister Jr’s final confrontation with Lister Sr. Also have completely removed the “Chinese Whispers” storyline, just to see if the plot can stand up without it. Although the Boyz suddenly recover from the laughing gas rather quickly, for the most part, it does.

    I would very much love to see the final result of this because I was tempted to cut the episode down myself, first time I’ve ever been tempted to do a fan edit myself.

  190. The other standout scene was obviously the Lister/Lister one, and I DID like it… but I do have a massive problem with Pree being the one responsible for helping Lister predict the future. I’d much rather it was just Lister predicting EXACTLY what he would do the next morning. That’s character – introducing Pree turns it into… just plot.

    Was it definitely established that Dave Snr was using Pree to do this?? I must have missed that on first viewing. Was there a scene where this was spelled out? When I watched it I just took it in exactly the way you suggest, that Lister had known himself too well and wasn’t going to put up with it anymore.

  191. G&T Admin

    Was it definitely established that Dave Snr was using Pree to do this?? I must have missed that on first viewing. Was there a scene where this was spelled out? When I watched it I just took it in exactly the way you suggest, that Lister had known himself too well and wasn’t going to put up with it anymore.

    When I first watched it at the recording, I took it exactly like that too – and loved the Lister/Lister scene.

    Remember, though, when Lister says to Pree “I’ve got a job for you” – I think it’s obvious that Pree helped him.

  192. So, is Lister’s full name now David Lister Senior Junior?

  193. forgive me if I’m being thicker than the offspring of a village idiot and a TV weathergirl I was just taking it that he needed Pree to be in on the story since she was lesson No.2 – and to be aware when that part of the message kicked in to activate her to carry it out, I suppose to assist with the recording. Hadn’t crossed my mind that she would be predicting his reactions until raised in here. I think it works beeter interpreting it that way he knew earlier on the docs advice was tough love and the whole idea I think was Lister’ although it must’ve got blurry and her login in there right enough but makes for funnier viewing accepting that it was Dave himself anticipating the reactions “Don’t swear!” etc. were delivered so well and sliding off the tabletop was very convincing.

  194. Wow. That was totally utterly smegging awesome. For the first time since probably episode one. I didnt get to watch Red Dwarf on the day it airred. Just watched it today saturday. Had to be in London Thursday to attend a Radio 2 band thing, that was equally a couldnt miss focus for me. So unusually Dwarf had to take back seat when im normally checking this site daily and as transfixed to watch as a man whos eyeballs are glued to a television set with bostick. So watching on a relaxed Saturday morning, and just totally loved some new dwarf in a way and to a level i’d have thought probably impossible given the greatness of early series and the departure of mr grant. But that was smegging fantastic. After Episode one and the audience things ive attended I’ve been pretty positive about this series being great. But this episode manages to draw me in with intrest like some kind of missing link between Quegg and Cassandra on the computer side of things. Dealing with the real world Holly casting situation brilliantly while making total sense. The drama reaches end of series 6 or quarantee like brilliance for me, I was gripped. I’ve been a bit worried this series would feel too small given the lack of outside stuff and budget focus. But where in duct soup I felt it was pointless jepordy, this felt real and scary in the moment, they managed to make so much room out of nothing during the chase and breakdown of the ship sequences. And to take ouroborous and turn it into a series 1 or 2 style personal character plot, then having lister play two listers, just works so well im going to call it genius. Dwarf often gives an actor two characters, but this has got to bethe most subtle alternate version yet. Made all the more believeable by Mr Charles real age now. He acts it brilliantly. Here is a series X episode that makes series VII even more important and better to watch! and is just brilliant lister focus. I could kind of guess where the third thred was going, but it was fun enough to fit. Pree was a brilliant character. And only the breasts joke doesnt make much sense given the image of computers used has always been heads, i forgive it, because at least we can ask “how big a tit was norman lovet” in a new way around here now. Trojan’s trek parody might not break into the first 36 episodes much when i eventually play ranking. But this one could bat into the low 20’s. The whinning noise. bit doesnt have much more to it then. It’s just about the ship breakingdown in general? the skutters have got pretty fat havnt they in this series ;-) The poppadom card bit etc. Some were worried in the trailers. But it works fine in the episode. I didnt feel series 8 about any of this at all. In worry of bad joke or over the topness etc. I think now dwarf is back. Last time getting it all in one weekend. what ultimately works better as a tv movie, now this time with a week spaced out series. I’ve settled into the style of X with ep one. To the point im comfortable and into the mode of this series now. Just absolutely loved ep two, feel set up well for 4 more weeks of pure joy. Shame tony hawks wasnt a vending machine mind. I love the fact there are so many types of vending machine in this episode. Rather than the dull generic grey hatch of series 1, you feel that the ship actually needed maintenance men just for the food machines, which is very central to the series first opening scenes etc. Although once again heading into a sun has been used before. This episode didnt worry me or finding me focussed so much on whats being reused as much as previous Doug only penned episodes have, because i was emotionally drawn into the plots for the character pretty much 100% Nice lighting gantry shots too. :-) And lister flying down the scoop. Brilliant. :-)

  195. The other standout scene was obviously the Lister/Lister one, and I DID like it… but I do have a massive problem with Pree being the one responsible for helping Lister predict the future. I’d much rather it was just Lister predicting EXACTLY what he would do the next morning. That’s character – introducing Pree turns it into… just plot.

    I’ve watched the episode three times so far, and up until I read Ian’s review last night, I did assume that Lister was predicting what he would do because he knew himself too well. When Lister said to Pree: “I’ve got a job for you”, from the second viewing, I thought that meant he was going to her right then to resign from Red Dwarf because he had the video planned out and knew what he would do the next day. After reading a few other comments, I’m thankful I’m not the only one who jumped to this conclusion.

  196. G&T Admin

    I’ve watched the episode three times so far, and up until I read Ian’s review last night, I did assume that Lister was predicting what he would do because he knew himself too well. When Lister said to Pree: “I’ve got a job for you”, from the second viewing, I thought that meant he was going to her right then to resign from Red Dwarf because he had the video planned out and knew what he would do the next day. After reading a few other comments, I’m thankful I’m not the only one who jumped to this conclusion.

    I certainly did when I first watched it live!

    It annoys me, because – at least for me – it lessens what was a great scene. Now I know it was just Pree telling him all that, the whole angle of Lister being painfully aware of his own failings is hugely reduced.

  197. I don’t think it reduces it that much. The core of him knowing he could have been so much more and the regret that comes with it is still there and is what drives him to make the message. I think he needs Pree because he knows sober Lister is likely to reject the message and he needs to know how to effectively discipline him and respond to his reactions. How to effectively outsmart himself. In my mind, he knows how Lister Jnr. will generally react to the message but the more subtle, unpredictable details he needs Pree for.

    I think Lister knowing how he would react with such precision would have lessened the scene for me personally because I wouldn’t buy Lister being able to predict his own reactions to the degree of “Don’t swear!” and “I’m doing okay!”. I did like how it still didn’t exactly sync up though. Lister still said some things that weren’t responded too like “How did you know I was going to swear!?”.

    Perfectly executed in my opinion.

  198. G&T Admin

    I think Lister knowing how he would react with such precision would have lessened the scene for me personally because I wouldn’t buy Lister being able to predict his own reactions to the degree of “Don’t swear!” and “I’m doing okay!”

    That had crossed my mind, and I know what you mean. It would definitely stretch credibility. But it was this knowledge of exactly what he was going to do that made it funny to me – that he would know himself that well.

    I do get why it doesn’t bother some people, but it just makes me feel disappointed.

  199. Yeah you nitpicking lot have spoiled it for me now. Bastards!

  200. Phil in regards to you review, the Denti-bot didn’t have the anesthetic because Pree clearly hooked the supply up to the air vents. She clearly predicted potential resistance for the crew and had taken measure to prevent them…..like sealing up the vents that lead to her mainframe……that made perfect sense. Though the Peter Lorre thing was awful all the same but I would disagree about the plots not connecting…..I think they intertwined very well (with exception of the Chinese Whispers which should have been cut from the episode frankly.)

  201. Yeah, to be fair to the episode (and I don’t know why I’m bothering doing that) I’m pretty sure them running out of anaesthetic was all part of Pree’s lickle scheme. Although quite why she had a lickle scheme to kill everyone is one of the flaws that you rightly point out.

    Hopefully we’ll have a series X episode where the crew isn’t suddenly placed in mortal danger 5 minutes before the credits just to give us an “exciting finale”.

  202. Doug isn’t sure how to end an episode anymore without saying, “Okay, now this character wants to kill everyone.” Then the crew manage to shut the computer down because everyone, including Pree, forgot she could predict the future, and they all fuckin’ dance..

    This made me chuckle. The dancing was indeed cringeworthy.

  203. Phil wrote:

    That was something he learned 15 years and 18 episodes ago so it’s a little strange he’s not so much as thought about it again until now

    … um, isn’t the point of the episode that he’s been doing the Father’s Day card thing every year for ages, but this is the first time Rimmer’s noticed and called him out on it? I certainly don’t think it’s the case that he’s only just started realising that he’s his own father.

  204. The fact that Kryten delivers him a Father’s Day card, shows that it’s at the *very* least been going on for a year, but doesn’t Lister says he does this “every year”?

  205. Phil’s reveiw says..

    >First she’s predicting the future, which is a good enough idea in itself. Then that’s gone and her performance must mirror >that of the senior office, so she makes incompetent repairs to the ship. Then that’s gone and she tries to kill Lister. Then >Lister’s gone so she steers the whole ship into a sun.

    I know what you mean it jumps around a lot. But is she only supposed to follow one rule then? isnt that simplistic for a super computer. Even Azimov had at least 3rules to begin with.

    She’s a slightly different take to Cassandra, in that she predicts the future like predictive text. Shes not telling events it seems to me, though she is predicting conversations based on character profile etc. or something. She is predicting commands i think, which makes her like a supercomputer version of the secretary in the sitcom 2012. Anyone that uses predictive text knows that that can be right or a pain in the arse wrong. So she’s got a lower percentage rate of sucess say than cassandra boasted of i would say. But if Doug left it at just that as the rule, it would have been a bit too similar to the previous story of a predictive computer for my liking, so i dont myself feel that that is a good enough idea on it’s own that this is just like a cassandra plugged into run the ship now, so im glad he developes it further.

    So we get a 2nd rule compatibility with senior officer of ship. This is a developement of the first idea because it still fits with the predicting thing anyway because she is predicting rimmers actions as that first officer. It’s like rule one = I predcict commnads. Sub rule = I most closely follow the actions of senior officer predicting these command outcome styles. That makes total sense to me it’s not throwing away one thing and replacing it with another it’s more the information on the how of the 1st rute works. She predicts any operators commands slightly ahead of them commanding, but rank counts for most when modeling that actions outcome on the ship. Put a good officer on the ship get a good outcome. With rimmer, your smegged.

    She then doesnt just try to kill lister out of the blue. She follows a rule set by JMC about non registered crew. Holly used to do that too. Yes this could be a further rule in that she now doesnt follow a crew member she sticks instead to policy.

    Or she could be predicting that this is what Rimmer would do follow rules to the letter against Lister. And rimmer does follow blindly any JMC rule set. He’s done nearly the exact same thing to Lister in Quaranteen (admitted some of that due to a virus) but equally there are other examples of his slavish love of JMC rules at times in the show, and he’s ejected lister in the back of starbug before now, stolen his body and said things like “if we eject their bodies into space, can we reach the asteroid” etc. Now yes we dont believe rimmer would kill lister like a murderer you are right there. But given rimmer believes he once killed the whole crew, or that the ship is currently in a bad way. It’s not totally without the possibility that rimmer would be predicted to follow a rule that doesnt benefit lister. Beyond this yes as a human like mind rimmer can deal better in this situation than pree if he was here and make the right calculation that not killing him is important or rimmer can be heroic etc at times. But the computer can get it wrong being more simple in it’s actions that a human that puts emotion into the picture when deciding priorities or has a strong self preservation rule over riding other logic patterns.

    Given people are saying that lister the father enlisted pree when drunk, to help him predict the outcome of his conversation with his lister son. It’ also possible that pree was over predicting drunk listers commands in this area leading to the situation
    also, at some 2nd level, compatible with rimmer actions in such a matter.

    The last thing with the sun dive, is the rule change yes. No human crew the main rule changes due to rank of the hologramme being unimportant now. But its still a rule that is explained on screen as to why she is doing it. So i didnt find this too complicated of whiplash plot for me on 1st watch i found it developement of the computers actions. Given pree makes a mistake of 99 years vs 99 minutes. We are perhaps looking at bad instalation or holly like computer senility in there somewhere too.

  206. >I know what you mean it jumps around a lot. But is she only supposed to follow one rule then? isnt that simplistic for a super computer.

    Not necessarily, but she’s not following any rules for longer than a few minutes. She can follow as many as she likes…but it gets bizarrely incompatible pretty quickly.

    >isn’t the point of the episode that he’s been doing the Father’s Day card thing every year for ages, but this is the first time Rimmer’s noticed and called him out on it?

    Poor phrasing on my part, absolutely…my issue was that he hadn’t given it this much thought before. That seems strange to me, that you could live with that knowledge for a decade and a half without ever thinking, “Maybe this has impacted me negatively.” Just my own thoughts on it, and that’s an extremely minor quibble in the face of everything else. Again, I LIKED the Lister stuff!

  207. Hopefully we’ll have a series X episode where the crew isn’t suddenly placed in mortal danger 5 minutes before the credits just to give us an “exciting finale”.

    Actually with regards to Pree you could always see how she was a lingering treat just waiting to be set off, which in turn happened when Lister resigned. I actually found that to be the plots working very well together unlike they did in Trojan where Lister’s nonsense over the phone gets Howard killed and thus having the final act collapse in on itself and Crawford’s betrayal at the end just seems to be thrown in just as a way to tie up the loose ends. I actually think that the danger in this episode however was very well thought out and it if wasn’t for a few minutes of Series VIII style stupidness then it could have been one of the best.

  208. G&T Admin

    I think Phil’s nailed a major problem with the series so far; good ideas pissed up the wall in the execution.

  209. Hasn’t that pretty much been the problem since 1997?

  210. Am I the only person to dislike ‘mad goth bastard’? Bastard always seems weird for a woman, and while I don’t think the insult should’ve been gender specific, this is the show that gave us ‘Trans-Am wheel arch nostrils’ and ‘rubber-headed eunuch’. Mad goth, yeah but bastard seemed a bit of a cop out.

    Also the gelf cider or whatever it was looked like a dirty pint.

  211. >Bastard always seems weird for a woman

    Hmm. Wait for “Dear Dave”.

  212. I’ll never get tired of Chris Barrie saying the word “bastard”, to be honest.

  213. G&T Admin

    I find it inherently amusing to hear people directing insults/swearwords that are usually male-specific towards women. The League of Gentlemen’s Charlie does it to Stella on a regular basis, and it creates extra amusement by seeming so out of place compared to the usual accepted context of the word.

    A more obscure example, but a non-scripted one – there was a bit in last year’s Big Brother when Jay was assuring Louise that he had feelings for her, and he said “of course I love you, you stupid fucking bastard”. I was giggling for about half an hour.

    Oh, and a well-placed swearword is never a cop-out. Knowing when and where to use them with precision is equally as skillfull as the more wordy, adjective-based insults.

  214. Oh, and a well-placed swearword is never a cop-out. Knowing when and where to use them with precision is equally as skillfull as the more wordy, adjective-based insults.

    Exactly. Knowing how to use swear words effectively is a skill. It reminds me of Linehan sometimes beeping swear words on The IT Crowd and sometimes letting them air uncensored based on nothing more than which option was the funniest.

  215. G&T Admin

    There’s a great example of a well placed swear (which is better than Howard’s “twat”) later this series, although it’s likely to be cut or censored.

  216. There’s a great example of a well placed swear (which is better than Howard’s “twat”) later this series, although it’s likely to be cut or censored.

    The title of something else makes me think that it was re-filmed afterwards with a different word.

  217. I’ll never get tired of Chris Barrie saying the word “bastard”, to be honest.

    Agreed. His pronunciation of ‘git’ is also particularly fine :-)

  218. Ellard tweeted this a few days ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4UR-apPXfE Check the comments, someone has misheard Rimmer saying “miladdo”.(Link to the comment, as it seems to have been pushed back a couple of pages: http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=m4UR-apPXfE)

    They obviously don’t know Lister’s character very well if they think he’d put up with racial epithets from anyone, let alone Rimmer. The mind boggles, frankly.

    Welcome to the Internet! Your games and champagne package will be arriving shortly via mech. ;-)

  219. Am I the only person to dislike ‘mad goth bastard’? Bastard always seems weird for a woman, and while I don’t think the insult should’ve been gender specific, this is the show that gave us ‘Trans-Am wheel arch nostrils’ and ‘rubber-headed eunuch’. Mad goth, yeah but bastard seemed a bit of a cop out.

    Also the gelf cider or whatever it was looked like a dirty pint.

    I think its because Pree itself wasnt gender specific. Kryten simply loaded her as a lady.
    I guess :)

  220. I’ve just installed Pree as a new Host option on Beat the Geek. Well I tried to, but she answered all the questions herself, got 14 out of 48 deliberately wrong including some embarrassingly easy stuff I should know, and then told me I enjoyed her daft hats, but i would get bored trying the bonus games, so she didnt bother showing me the codes.

  221. I’m still annoyed that this could have been an absolutely classic episode if it weren’t for the Chinese whispers strand and Kerry Shale (As in the episode already had two great plots and medi-bot could have been easily done with a normal voice). It’s so aggravating because neither of these bad elements were even necessary. Easily would have been my favourite so far if not for that.

  222. G&T Admin

    I really like Fathers & Suns, it genuinely is in the running for top spot due regardless of the vending machine stuff…

  223. It’s certainly not out of the running, I think the two main plots are the most successful in the series, but that extra stuff just knocks it down to a similar level as the rest for me. Not that the rest are bad.

  224. It’s just occurred to me that you could very plausibly mangle the Chinese Whispers line into “Do crimes leave Lister in stasis?” Which, of course, they do. It would have been a very fanwanky line to use, but it might have been a slightly more pleasing resolution than that bollocks about Siamese sisters growing whiskers.

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