Cultural Reference

It’s not quite as black and white as “references are good” / “references are bad.” (And I’m sure you know that anyway, so don’t take offense…that’s just prefatory.)

A cultural reference, a lot of the time, can get an easy laugh of familiarity. That’s not necessarily a bad thing but, as you say, it can weather poorly with time, and something that once got the show a laugh is now all of a sudden making it look dated (and probably not as funny).

My model for whether or not a cultural reference is “good” (in the sense of “serviceable” as opposed to “funny”) is whether or not you actually need to know what’s being referenced to get the joke. A familiarity should enhance your enjoyment, but not be a prerequisite.

In terms of literature, Gulliver’s Travels is full of specific references and satires of individuals and political figures, but we are still reading Swift today, and discussing it, and laughing at it. Why? Because the references don’t require a familiarity with the individuals, they just require a familiarity with type. By contrast nobody reads Henry Fielding’s Shamela anymore because, though it’s a similar satirical work, it’s a parody of a single novel that—surprise surprise—nobody reads anymore. The humor is lost on anyone not familiar with the source material because it’s too direct and specific, and “those familiar with the source material” is a rapidly slimming group of people.

To return to a contemporary standpoint, I just watched an episode of Arrested Development in which Michael Bluth and his 15-year-old neice sing the song Afternoon Delight at a Christmas party…and everybody realizes at once how sexual (accidental, but therefore disturbing) this gesture is. That’s a cultural reference, but it doesn’t rely on a familiarity with the song. If you know it, yeah, you’ll laugh sooner because you’ll get the joke earlier. But if you don’t, the characters react in a way that you understand what’s funny about it. Realization arrives slowly for the characters, and so the audience arrives at the same conclusion themselves—whether they know the song or not.

Compare this to a specific Family Guy joke (not trying to kick up a specific debate on that show, it’s just the first thing that comes to mind) in which Chuck Berry is hosting a juice commercial and he says something like, “Open up, baby, here it comes.” If you aren’t familiar with his purported sex tape, the joke has absolutely no meaning whatsoever.

It’s really down to how the show handles it. There’s nothing wrong with getting an immediate laugh with a cultural reference, but depending on how they’re handled, you may end up with a shelf-life.

What Phil said.

>the Little Chef waitress, Berni Inn

IMO those kind of references have only aged the show, and must baffle non-UK viewers.
The cultural references that have worked best in Dwarf have been those little sci-fi homages - like the homage to Bladerunner in Justice, or to 2001 when Holly is erased in Queeg (there are others, but I’ve had far too much wine at the moment to think of them).

Well yes, that pretty much summed it up. Great work Phil!

I’m just wondering, that is it easy to use a refrence for a quick laugh, so you’ve got instant relation to the audience watching?

Should it be used in Red Dwarf in the Specials? Ok we don’t know the consept yet, but the original’s (yes it’s new and old already) used this relationship to us watching, when really did they need to do it?

“I’m not a combination of the speaking clock, Moss Bros & Teasy Weasy.” is probably still funny even if someone doesn’t know what the latter two are.

I think the idea that references age the show is unfortunate, Buffy is crammed full of references which hide exposition expertly but which will anchor the series in the era it was made, but of course every show absorbs the era it was made in to a certain extent.

Marilyn Monroe vs Felicity Kendal, in the UK there’s no contest asa to which is funnier. Bafflement abroad, probably, but in Japan its probably dubbed to be more relevant and in the US the only people watching are anglophiles and probably not that bothered by being baffled. To return to Buffy “When I get so worn and wrinkly, that I look like David Brinkley” was a lyric in the musical episode.

Do I know who he is? No.
Do I care? No.
Can I hazard a guess at his skin care regimen? Yes.
Do I understand? Yes.

Phil’s definitely on good form at the moment, eh?

Marilyn Monroe vs Felicity Kendal, in the UK there’s no contest asa to which is funnier. Bafflement abroad, probably, but in Japan its probably dubbed to be more relevant and in the US the only people watching are anglophiles and probably not that bothered by being baffled.

The thing about that joke is that Felicity Kendal wasn’t referenced because she was noted for being attractive - it was more specific than that, it was because she’d won Rear of the Year. Marilyn Monroe, as beautiful as she was (and as obsessed with her as Rob and Doug apparently are/were), wasn’t really famous for her arse - she was famous for, well, all of her (and her actually rather excellent sense of comic timing). If they’d wanted to update the joke, I’m sure there’s someone more appropriate that they could have referenced - although admittedly, I’m unable to think of one off the top of my head…

Well I had know idea about her rear being awarded, so I laughed without the context which almost proves these things don’t date.

Personally I think of the Berni Inn refrence as part of my childhood, I remember been taken to one. So in a way it doesn’t make it old for me, but someone who watches it now would think Berni who? I think Red Dwarf stands up very well for it’s age.

I maybe be wrong, but I think Star Wars - A New Hope is the greatest example of total non refrence to anything but itslef, making it watchable then, as it would be today.

Dave you make some valid and great points here, I’ve never really thought about Buffy in that way before.

I think it’s best to avoid anything too recent and go for stuff that’s stood the test of time.

Works within the reality of the show too. It’s not too much of a stretch that Marilyn Monroe will still be famous in the 23rd century (or whenever the hell it is). It’s a bit more of a stretch to suggest that Felicity Kendall will still be well known.

Oh, definitely (on the relative long-term fame of Monroe vs. Kendall). But on the other hand… well, we’re talking early series of Red Dwarf, here. When you’re writing a sitcom, especially in its early days, you’re not really thinking about how people will view it in fifteen or twenty years. You’re just concerned with making them laugh there and then - and in 1988, people will have found the Kendall joke funny for the context, rather than just “someone noted for attractiveness”.

(see also : “Oh, la di da! Look what I’ve found in my laundry bag! All of Felicity Kendall’s underwear, that needs a good wash!” We did that episode as a school play once - I directed it, and was Vyv - and, since it was in the late ’90s, changed it to Geri Halliwell. Thus our “updating” is arguably now even more dated than the original!)

> Thus our “updating” is arguably now even more dated than the original!)

Never mind that, who the fuck wants to think about Geri Halliwell’s underwear?!

Well, we were just going for a “Someone who a lot of people seem to find attractive”. I can’t remember why we alighted on her in particular, like, but this was at pretty much the height of the Spice Girls’ fame.

What about Champion The Wonder Horse mentioned in Kryten? I certainly didn’t know what the fuck show that was referring to. You still laugh at the mention though. Same goes for Kryten doing Marlon Brando in The Wild One. It’s funny even if you don’t get the reference.

OK, here is a very good page to look at, as many of you will already know. Scroll down a bit to get to the good stuff.

Champion the Wonder Horse works because the joke is simply that it’s a horse. If he’d just said “Champion”, we wouldn’t get it. But you don’t need to have seen Champion the Wonder Horse to know that Champion the Wonder Horse is, in all probability, a horse.

> “I’m not a combination of the speaking clock, Moss Bros & Teasy Weasy.” is probably still funny even if someone doesn’t know what the latter two are.

I confirm that

Screw the context, if the very sounds ‘Moss Bros & Teasy Weasy’ don’t put a smile on your face, you don’t know from funny.

> “I’m not a combination of the speaking clock, Moss Bros & Teasy Weasy.” is probably still funny even if someone doesn’t know what the latter two are.

Stuff like this still works, but equally there are some dreadful lines — “persuade Dustin Hoffman not to make Ishtar” wasn’t even funny at the time.

Stuff like this still works, but equally there are some dreadful lines — “persuade Dustin Hoffman not to make Ishtar” wasn’t even funny at the time.

I haven’t seen Ishtar, but it’s quite easy to get the joke: Ishtar is considered bad, or at least ‘out there.’ No doubt someone having seen it would find the joke all the more funny but it amused me, although I probably didn’t laugh out loud.

The half-life on the Ishtar joke was about 4 seconds. Sure, you understand it, but its impact is pretty much all gone.

The Teasy Weasy one works because it sounds like what it is - it could have been a made-up company name and achieved the same effect. As Seb said, it’s best to stick to ‘test of time’ icons, and Moss Bros fits that. But self-descriptive references - like Champion the Wonder Horse - allow you to get away with it, too.

>it could have been a made-up company name and achieved the same effect.

Correct.

>self-descriptive references - like Champion the Wonder Horse - allow you to get away with it, too

Also correct.

> best to stick to ‘test of time’ icons.

Whilst I agree. Some stuff can generate a warmth by referring to a certain time. The Felecity Kendall gag for example.

Darkplace works on the same level.

This was quite clearly not me. It was Karl.

Enough about QPR Norman, I don’t even like football so couldn’t care less if they were division one champions or bottom of the vauxhall conference.

My Football references are out of date too so I’ve probably proved the thread poster right just with this post.

Yep. I confess. It was me.

I hope you cleaned the keyboard nicely after you played with it?