User login
Recent Comments
- Bobby Llew once again tests the limits of his NDA (106)
- DwarfCast 34 - Red Dwarf X Preview (42)
- Photo! PHOTO! (25)
- Howard Goodall Composing RDX (71)
- First publicity shot released! (121)
- G&T: The Official Fansite (41)
- Red Dwarf X - Episode 4 - Set Report (66)
- Peter Wragg RIP (33)
- DwarfCast 27 - Dimension Jump XVI - Saturday Afternoon (17)
- Red Dwarf X - Episode 1 - Set Report (68)
Quick Links
Who's online
There are currently 6 users and 13 guests online.Syndicate
Recommendations
Doctor Who - Series 5 - Broadcast Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Interesting Moffat interview:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00rlx6k/Front_Row_30_03_2010/
Totally agree on his take on a black and/or female Doctor. And fascinated by the talk of an episode that ‘had’ to be sent to RTD in advance.
In reply to the question what Prisoner Zero was originally arrested for, seeing as all he did for most of the episode was stand around snarling, he was probably arrested for loitering.
German blog about the English language explains custard by the means of Who:
http://49suns.de/2010-04-07/englisch-lernen-mit-tv-serien-28-custard
The official site has some clips from episode 2 up. Looks interesting, a few nice lines and the explanation of why Amy doesn’t explode like confidence when floating in space in the clip seen in the trailers. Also appears we will have an introduction to each episode from the Moff which is nice.
> the explanation of why Amy doesn’t explode like confidence when floating in space
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html
> And fascinated by the talk of an episode that ‘had’ to be sent to RTD in advance.
It’s got to be the one that features the Cybus Cybermen. Of course, RTD didn’t create the Cybermen (‘what???’ I hear you scream) but maybe the use of the Cybus model, presumably coming from the alt-universe that RTD created for series 2, was sent to be okayed by him, if only out of courtesy…? Either that or there’s some connection to Torchwood that RTD needed to look at to make sure everything’s kept in line for the U.S. series he’s working on.
Does anyone else love Moffat’s frankness in interviews? And his bordering on ‘fuck you’ attitude?? You get the feeling he could slag off the RTD era in a big way if he felt like it. Heck, he makes no bones about how shit he thinks a lot of the classic series is, though IMO that makes him much more of a true fan than if he was like ‘oh everything’s brilliant’. His gloves-off, rose-tinted-specs off way of thinking’s gonna bring us some excellent television, that’s for sure.
>Does anyone else love Moffat’s frankness in interviews? And his bordering on ‘fuck you’ attitude??
I wouldn’t say I love it, but it’s very noticeable. RTD seemed a lot more comfortable at the PR side of things.
Interesting Moffat interview:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00rlx6k/Front_Row_30_03_2010/
Totally agree on his take on a black and/or female Doctor. And fascinated by the talk of an episode that ‘had’ to be sent to RTD in advance.
Is there a transcription or a YouTube link of this vid somewhere? I can’t access it from here.
I can’t hear the voice of the host of that radio clip without thinking of this Not the Nine O’Clock News Sketch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npEwra5344s
Re-watching 11th Hour for the 4th or 5th time it struck me that Amy’s wardrobe appears to be painted a Tardis-esque blue, maybe a shade or two lighter, but surely a deliberate touch.
It’s early days, but that really was five out of five stuff wasn’t it?
As well as the Front Row interview, there was a programme on Good Friday about Douglas Adams’ time as script editor, ‘The Doctor and Douglas’. I’m not sure about it. The justification for the programme’s assertion that Douglas Adams ‘changed Doctor Who forever’ is based on the fact that when RTD gave Julie Gardener some Doctor Who vids to watch she really enjoyed ‘City of Death’ and it is fast and funny like the new Who. Not that much new and probably not strong enough for a national radio slot but some of you might enjoy it - hurry, in 12 hours it’s gone.
> but that really was five out of five stuff wasn’t it?
Yep I would give it a 5/5, though it took three viewings to come to that conclusion (the last time in HD and not surrounded by people who are still wondering why Tennant’s not in it anymore (despite every one of them seeing him regenerate on New Year’s Day ffs…), which helped a lot).
Beans are evil. Bad, bad beans!
I think Matt Smith has just become my new favourite Doctor…even more so than Tom Baker, my childhood Doctor!!
I think I already like him more than Tennant.
I’m still trying to figure out who it is that Smith’s Doctor reminds me of ….
>I’m still trying to figure out who it is that Smith’s Doctor reminds me of ….
The Doctor.
That was good, although I found ‘the Queen’s working classy jive shtick corny, but I suppose it was meant to be. The smilers were great creepy monsters.
My virgin box (oo-er) is a bit irritating at the moment though It keeps pausing and jumping and there’s a clicking sound and the volume will suddenly reduce. It’s not enough to ruin the plotting but it gets a bit irritating after a while… I hope it rectifies soon so I can watch a repeat without that nonsense.
> I see elements of McCoy, Troughton and Davidson.
Davidson, definitely. But there’s someone else (non-Who) that he strongly reminds me of.
It’ll come to me eventually.
Oh and I caught the crack at the end. I missed it last time. (Mainly because it appeared on a screen with another graph line on it, if I remember correctly.)
> Davidson, definitely. But there’s someone else (non-Who) that he strongly reminds me of.
It’ll come to me eventually.
Saw someone online comparing him to Basil Fawlty :S
>Smart-Arse.
It wasn’t even that, really. Just that what Smith manages to do - astonishingly - is embody so many interpretations of the character. More than perhaps anyone before him, it’s not that he’s “the Eleventh Doctor” (as Moffat says, there aren’t eleven Doctors, there’s one Doctor with eleven faces) he’s just… the Doctor. Absolutely and entirely. It’s remarkable.
> It’s remarkable
This. ‘The Beast Below’ was essentially the 4th episode shot (I think…) and he has the character so solidly down it’s brilliant to watch. Surely stuff like the little jump over the bench is enough to endear him to everyone watching, and he really can get away with that amount of playfulness without it seeming off.
Matt’s casting is a stroke of genius only matched by Karen’s. Even when covered in sick (maybe especially so, which could be worrying…) I think I could happily watch her forever. Somehow she’s playing everything at just the right level, feisty and a little bit wacky without being remotely annoying. Moffat helps, obviously. I’m glad he hasn’t forced too much shock and awe reactions for Amy, it would feel so much like we were going through the motions. I found last week’s ‘any passing remarks? I’ve heard them all.’ line pretty interesting, it’s as though Moffat was making a point of not repeating the whole schtick, not insulting his viewers’ intelligence.
Last week was kind of a remake of Smith and Jones, this week we had Gridlock.
It didn’t really work for me. Seemed underwritten with lots of stuff unanswered. There were some genuinely interesting ideas, such as Amy’s message to herself…but the details just seemed a bit sketchy (why did they start torturing the whale if it was completely unnecessary? where are the other countries if they’re not on whale-powered ships?). The resolution to the moral dilemma was just…moving the goal-posts. And the Smilers (who looked very promising) did, um, not much.
Sophie Okonedo also annoyed the shit out of me.
>why did they start torturing the whale if it was completely unnecessary?
They made an assumption. What’s that old addage about the word assume? (I think I read it is a Stephen King book once.)
Actually Amy explained this at the end of the episode. There they are in trouble, nothing to power their ship, and along comes a huge space-faring creature. They don’t speak the same language. They probably don’t even know the whale was sentient. They don’t know that it came to help them, they just see an opportunity and use it at the poor creature’s expense.
>where are the other countries if they’re not on whale-powered ships
I’m assuming (this time rightly I think) they’re flying the space-ways with great big engines. There was plenty of tubing etc on the ship which indicated it was intended to be connected to such a thing, and I don’t think it’s a stretch to think that far in the future the engine systems had been developed. As to why the Britain ship didn’t… maybe they just ran out of resources at that point, or the original system was faulty. True, that part was never explained, but I don’t think it really matters for this current story. This is a generation ship and that happened centuries ago.
>The resolution to the moral dilemma was just…moving the goal-posts.
I quite liked that. It was all about making hard choices and although Amy’s turned out to be right… it was certainly a chance to take.
>And the Smilers (who looked very promising) did, um, not much.
I think they did enough. They were creepy and essentially the ship’s government enforcers.
>Sophie Okonedo also annoyed the shit out of me.
I found her quite sassy to start with… but she did irritate me a bit later on too. She should have left out the ‘Landon’ pantomime spiel I think.
>Actually Amy explained this at the end of the episode. There they are in trouble, nothing to power their ship, and along comes a huge space-faring creature. They don’t speak the same language. They probably don’t even know the whale was sentient. They don’t know that it came to help them, they just see an opportunity and use it at the poor creature’s expense.
Yeah, I got this from the episode. Just don’t think it holds up to much scrutiny. I’ll excuse the fact that they wouldn’t know once they got into a routine of torturing the whale over hundreds of years, but not when they first built the starship on it. They never thought to test the amount of pain they need to give the whale to ensure it keeps moving? (And they must have, otherwise they wouldn’t describe it as “torture’).
And is this truth REALLY that bad that it would cause most people to erase the fact from their memory? Considering what humans have done to numerous other species, torturing one whale to ensure the survival of the Brits is actually pretty minor.
One other thing, the final shot showed the whale clearly visible from under the starship. Wouldn’t this have been visible from the TARDIS where they were floating around it earlier?
>Lose Pete. Thanks.
Brilliant.
> One other thing, the final shot showed the whale clearly visible from under the starship. Wouldn’t this have been visible from the TARDIS where they were floating around it earlier?
They were floating way above the ship so couldn’t see it. Though come on this is just storytelling convenience. Surely the Tardis scanner could have shown the whale from the get go, it’s just the kind of thing you need to forget about if you want to be able to enjoy an episode of television.
Moffar’s comment somewhere about the show being fairytale > Sci-Fi probably explains this away (not just for his era). If you want a cold, hard fast based drama then you’re watching the wrong show.
Yeah, I got this from the episode. Just don’t think it holds up to much scrutiny.
And of course everything else in the show like ‘the magic box that can travel time and space and is bigger on the inside than on the outside’ is the stuff of impenetrable logic…
Of all the things one could take issue with in the story concept, the off screen events that led to the whale being tortured seem pretty low on the list.
>And of course everything else in the show like ‘the magic box that can travel time and space and is bigger on the inside than on the outside’ is the stuff of impenetrable logic…
Ah, that old argument which apparently prevents the logic of any Doctor Who story from being scrutinized. 5/5 it is, then.
>If you want a cold, hard fast based drama then you’re watching the wrong show.
No, I’m tuning in to watch a show written by the guy who wrote one of the best pieces of drama I’ve seen in the last ten years. If he produces an episode that seems rather uninspired, I’m going to say so. I’m not going to unconditionally love it just because he wrote it, rather than RTD. Eleventh Hour was good, this was average at best.
> No, I’m tuning in to watch a show written by the guy who wrote one of the best pieces of drama I’ve seen in the last ten years.
You don’t mean that ropey mess Blink, do you?
Agree with Pete. I assumed when the episode ended the way it did that I hadn’t understood something but no, the episode doesn’t make that sense. Matt Smith’s great though so it’s probably a 3/5 for me. I’ll never watch it again though.
It’s internally consistent. Everything that occurs in the episode makes sense. Granted, it could’ve used an extra 15 minutes or so to breathe, but it’s another one of those Doctor Who episodes where if you’re not paying attention it won’t feel complete.
> Ah, that old argument which apparently prevents the logic of any Doctor Who story from being scrutinized. 5/5 it is, then.
Well there’s little point in trying to have any kind of discussion if that’s the maturity of the response is there?
> No, I’m tuning in to watch a show written by the guy who wrote one of the best pieces of drama I’ve seen in the last ten years. If he produces an episode that seems rather uninspired, I’m going to say so.
Then you should expect those who enjoyed it to call you out.
> I’m not going to unconditionally love it just because he wrote it, rather than RTD.
For a minute there I thought you were being serious.
>Well there’s little point in trying to have any kind of discussion if that’s the maturity of the response is there?
There’s little point in having any kind of discussion if someone says “X hasn’t made sense for the last 40 years, so why should Y in this episode?”
>Then you should expect those who enjoyed it to call you out.
Still waiting for someone to. You know, other than saying “You’re wrong”, “You’re watching the wrong show if you didn’t like this”, “You didn’t pay attention” and “Doctor Who isn’t supposed to make sense”.
I’m in complete agreement that Matt Smith is fantastic, but I haven’t actually seen anyone compliment this episode beyond that.
I enjoyed it and so did my Dad :) That’s all I’m looking for really, something to enjoy. I don’t need to scrutinize the science or logic if it’s going to affect my enjoyment of the episode. I’m just not that sort of person. I just like the episode rather a lot.
It’s much easier to express criticism - particularly if it’s nit-picking - than it is to go into detail about why you particularly liked something, though.
It’s a damning indictment of the negativity inherent in the internet that the burden of proof always lies with those who liked something, rather than those that find fault.
And people have replied to some of your specific complaints, it’s just that you don’t agree with them that the explanations/justifications are adequate. That’s your problem, not theirs. Don’t try and claim the high ground by saying “Oh, no-one’s given a proper response to the points I raised”, because some have.
I haven’t actually seen anyone compliment this episode beyond that.
Do you read the internet with your eyes closed?
>It’s much easier to express criticism - particularly if it’s nit-picking - than it is to go into detail about why you particularly liked something, though.
I would disagree that it’s nitpicking to say that a central character annoyed the shit out me, the smilers (who were promoted as being integral to this episode) were underused and the finale was flawed because it made little sense. I don’t think any of them are trivial complaints.
If I’d criticised the CGI, Smith’s bowtie or the size of the TARDIS windows, that would be nitpicking. But the scope of this episode was HUGE, and it just seemed underwritten with lots of holes.
>Do you read the internet with your eyes closed?
No, I just don’t spend my time scouring the web for Doctor Who reviews. This thread is as far as I’ve ventured so far with regards to The Beast Below. I take it from that that this has been greeted with the same boundless enthusiasm that prompted me to come on here and sing the praises of Blink or Midnight after their initial airings.
Looking forward to next weeks ep, Matt Smith’s ‘i am the Doctor, and you are the daleks!’ line sounds corny (i’m sure the audio of that line was leaked the other year and it got people worried) though i’m guessing it might be done for comedy effect, like the ‘who the man’ line in TEH. Out of context that line would’ve sounded worrying as well.
I would disagree that it’s nitpicking to say that a central character annoyed the shit out me, the smilers (who were promoted as being integral to this episode) were underused…
I don’t recall the Smilers ever being promoted as “integral”. They popped up in the 3D trailer, certainly, but I’d hardly consider that “integral”.
…and the finale was flawed because it made little sense. I don’t think any of them are trivial complaints.
It made tons of sense. If you don’t think it made sense then I argue, quite rightly I feel, that you weren’t paying any bloody attention.
It was precisely the fact that I was paying bloody attention that it didn’t make any sense. In fact, the more you think about it, the more questions it poses which will, likely, remain unanswered…much like RTD and The End of Time.
Stuff such as the age of Liz 10 (hundreds of years old) is dismissed very quickly but, when you consider it beyond face value, it poses a question; the public must know that she is hundreds of years old. She, however, can’t even know what year it is. Maybe I missed the bit where it was explained because I wasn’t paying attention.
The Smilers were, indeed, in the trailer. They were also in the synopsis. But, ignoring that, they were an important part of the setup and posed as a threat…and then we found out that they were actually working to protect the secret. That’s completely fine. But there’s no resolution to this and they aren’t seen beyond the big reveal.
You’ve asked two questions there. The first question could be answered quite simply with the “Forget” button. The second is inconsequential and doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things.
Got any more questions?
>You’ve asked two questions there.
Nope.
>The first question could be answered quite simply with the “Forget” button.
Which is lovely. Unfortunately Liz 10 believes she’s been serving for just ten years. And a 15 year old would know that’s not true…because they’ve never forgotten.
>The second is inconsequential and doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things.
So inconsequential that it doesn’t exist. My criticism about the smilers wasn’t a question.
>Got any more questions?
Just the one but you don’t want to hear it.
>Got any more questions?
Does anybody want any toast?….How about a muffin?
> Which is lovely. Unfortunately Liz 10 believes she’s been serving for just ten years. And a 15 year old would know that’s not true…because they’ve never forgotten.
You assume that when British citizens press the “forget” button that it only erases the twenty-minute film they just saw. Granted that’s a bit of a stretch. Alternatively the public know that Liz 10 had her aging pretty much brought to a halt and the only person who doesn’t know is Liz 10. Either way it never particularly bothered me.
> So inconsequential that it doesn’t exist. My criticism about the smilers wasn’t a question.
Actually what you’ve done there, haha, is prove my point. You said, “the more you think about it, the more questions it poses.” I answered two questions (actually one question, but that’s what not paying attention and operating on only a couple of hours’ worth of sleep will do to you). Then I asked fro more questions, and you apparently haven’t got any.
I’ve seen other questions asked elsewhere, but all of the questions I’ve seen were answered in the show itself. This leads me to believe two things.
1.) Doctor Who fans aren’t very observant, and
2.) 45 minutes isn’t really enough time to do this idea justice.
In any case, I’ll be writing a proper review of this episode later for URP!, so I’ll save further commentary on the episode for that.
> Which is lovely. Unfortunately Liz 10 believes she’s been serving for just ten years. And a 15 year old would know that’s not true…because they’ve never forgotten.
Can you point out where this actually generates a conflict within the established universe? A moment whereby the queen screams out to her public “Ere Guv, ‘ow long ave I been on the throne?” and a child would have the opportunity to question the established facts about what occured prior to their 5th birthday?
Exactly how many memories do you recall prior to your 5th birthday, prior to your 10th? Alternatively exactly how much opportunity would children within a ‘police state’ get to challenge such things, especially when you take into account that the entire adult population would be convinced otherwise.
> There’s little point in having any kind of discussion if someone says “X hasn’t made sense for the last 40 years, so why should Y in this episode?”
I made those remarks simply because it’s a conversation that gets repeated after every episode. Not usually because an episode is poorly written, but because each episode is fiction over faction and will always leak the odd plothole in order to give way to a stronger overall story.
To say the episode “Didn’t make any sense” or to imply that Moffat is as unsatisfying as RTD when it comes to tieing up loose-ends just doesn’t appear to be an opinion that’s going to get too much support or sympathy.
I appreciate that it’s frustrating when your enjoyment of a show is ruined by such issues and equally it’s frustrating when everyone seems blind to their importance, but you hardly help yourself by demonstrating a shitty attitude to anyone who dares disagree with you.
>Actually what you’ve done there, haha, is prove my point. You said, “the more you think about it, the more questions it poses.” I answered two questions (actually one question, but that’s what not paying attention and operating on only a couple of hours’ worth of sleep will do to you). Then I asked fro more questions, and you apparently haven’t got any.
Run that by me again…? There, that was almost a question.
>45 minutes isn’t really enough time to do this idea justice.
Who’s fault is that? BBC Schedulers or…(whisper) Steven Moffat?
>Can you point out where this actually generates a conflict within the established universe? A moment whereby the queen screams out to her public “Ere Guv, ‘ow long ave I been on the throne?” and a child would have the opportunity to question the established facts about what occured prior to their 5th birthday?
Ok, you DID ask;
During the events of this episode, Liz 10 has been investigating for ten years (irrespective of the fact that she’s investigated and found out the truth numerous times before), and she hasn’t even found out during her current investigation how long she’s been on the throne for?
The Queen wakes up in a chair in, for argument’s sake, 2500. As far as she knows, she’s just had her coronation.
Unfortunately, there’s people who will have almost another 5 years knowing that she’s actually been in the throne since, at least, 2499. Then the 15 year old pops up and says he doesn’t remember a monarch before Liz 10. Does anyone?
People in “the UK” wouldn’t forget at the same time as they’re all visiting the booths at different times (or not at all, in the case of the people below 16) so they’d always be a confusion about when the coronation actually took place. How do history books work if the monarch has no idea what year it is or the public are constantly having bits of their memories erased? How bad are Liz’s investigation skills if it’s taken her 10 years to get this far?
>To say the episode “Didn’t make any sense” or to imply that Moffat is as unsatisfying as RTD when it comes to tieing up loose-ends just doesn’t appear to be an opinion that’s going to get too much support or sympathy.
Neither is saying “Moffat had an off-day”, evidently. Blasphemy. Maybe I should pay more attention to the “Written by” credit, before daring to state an opinion. I ripped into RTD whenever he wrote a turkey, but I was also happy to sing his praises when he produced something wonderful (Midnight, being one shining example).
I wasn’t actually asking for support, and I certainly wasn’t asking for sympathy. I merely gave an opinion. Ben said I was wrong. You said I was watching the wrong show. Plenty of people dismissed my plotholes and claimed I was wrong. I’m merely elaborating on that. It wouldn’t be an issue, if this episode didn’t have such huge scope. Unfortunately, it’s built on huge ideas and they invite inspection.
To repeat; Blink’s a fucking masterpiece, The Girl in the Fireplace is brilliant. This isn’t. Not sure how this can even be 4/5 when compared to those episodes.
>But you hardly help yourself by demonstrating a shitty attitude to anyone who dares disagree with you.
Lose Karl. Thanks.
Is that more polite?
> To repeat; Blink’s a fucking masterpiece, The Girl in the Fireplace is brilliant. This isn’t. Not sure how this can even be 4/5 when compared to those episodes.
Because you’re not really supposed to be comparing TBB to Blink and TGITFP, that’s why. TBB is the first proper adventure for the new Doctor and companion, Amy’s first journey in the Tardis and the chance for her to prove herself, and we’re still getting to grips with Matt’s Doctor (with ease, it must be said). You just can’t have episodes with as much depth as TGITFP and Blink when you’re so soon into a new setup like this.
Come back when it’s the Angels 2-parter.
Btw is this the most disturbing Who-related clip on youtube…?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqrfTRJboq4
‘My name is Rolex. I will take you to meet the Lord of the Eternal Time Watch - Sekonda…’ Rotf,,,
If thats the sort of descision making moffat is giving amy I would like to see what happens when she makes the wrong descision!
ON THE WHOLE (not breaking it down into tiny pieces!) i though it was a nice episode, it was a good continuation on the ‘letting us meet the new characters’
>Because you’re not really supposed to be comparing TBB to Blink and TGITFP, that’s why.
Just wanted to remind you that in the past I’ve loved Moffat’s writing, and I wasn’t underwhelmed by this just because it was him writing it. I’m not sure why you can’t compare ANY two episodes, but if it helps, I’ll say that Gridlock was much better.
Jolly good. I’m looking forward to being told my opinions are somehow wrong for the next 11 weeks.
> I’m looking forward to being told my opinions are somehow wrong for the next 11 weeks.
Well you’ll be wrong to do so.
I’m away, I’ll watch it Monday after work. Now no one say anything on twitter. No? Ah, ok.
WWII, Daleks and Gatiss, tonight - how can it fail?
That was rhetorical, btw.
Plus the remake of The Prisoner. It’s going to be an interesting night.
> But there’s someone else (non-Who) that he strongly reminds me of.
It’ll come to me eventually.
For some reason he’s started to remind me of Chris Morris.
I largely liked it but there were a couple of rather duff points. I went through a list/review thing describing my thoughts… then noticed this is a spoiler free thread. Silly me. Cool I just noticed before posting.
> Dint like it!
Same. What a bag of wank! I can live with the new Dalek design, though they were wasted with nothing to do (we can only hope we get Moffat-penned Daleks at some point). Cringeworthy performance of Churchill by Ian McNeice, and for what reason did he even need to be in the episode?? Compared with Dickens’s appearance (also penned by Gatiss) it was pointless. The worst ‘historical celebrity’ yet.
Amy not knowing the Daleks is great but Gatiss made zero use of that fact in the episode. Her lack of knowledge of them should have ended up putting herself and/or the Doctor in danger somehow. Also, considering she’d never seen them before she acted pretty blaze around them. Some strange decisions made here…*sigh*
And a dodgy-as-anything sound mix to boot. I thought they might have learned they need to do a stereo mix for broadcast, considering 99% of viewers will never see it with the 5.1 one, but noooo. It was like they didn’t want us to hear the dialogue… The thing is it wasn’t too bad on TEH and TBB. Victory was definitely mixed worse. Maybe when it’s a better episode you just don’t care about stuff like that…
I wanted to be on the edge of my seat with this one, which is probably why I’m pissed off. Where was that moment that Moffat said we would all want to keep rewinding and playing back? Does he mean the new Daleks being revealed?? If so he should have kept them out of the bloody Radio Times!
>And a dodgy-as-anything sound mix to boot.
Wasn’t it just? I’ve seen complaints about this with previous episodes but didn’t notice it. This week it was very poor though.
>Surely it’s not a spoiler once its aired?
Um..
(One re-read of first post later)you’re right. (I wouldn’t mind but I’ve posted spoilers here myself. I thought there was specific threads for each episode, but realise now that’s another site I visit. )
Okay go on then, MAJOR SPOILERS AHOOOOOY!
Sorry, had a funny turn there.
Daleks and WW II, = Good.
Churchill = Good.
Spitfires in Place = Good. (Although that was a quick upgrade. Maybe those systems had already been installed though. I think it was mentioned but I missed it.)
Doctor baiting dalek to prove to others they’re evil= Bit stupid. I know he wants to prove their true identity to the others, but like that? It’s just as well for them they didn’t slaughter everyone in the room in a few seconds flat rather than just a couple of people.
However the plot twist using Doctor for their super-race ends was good. Well, no it was evil.. but I’m sure you know what I mean.
I’ll stop the this = this stuff now.
As for the new colourful Daleks I wasn’t sure from the pictures, but on-screen they looked really good. Not the brightest mentally though when they didn’t attempt to zap the Doctor the moment his jammie ruse was exposed, but they’ve a history of that.
The ‘hand-held explosive device’ ploy was amusing but the ‘unpure’ daleks were stupid not to scan it earlier. Then again they’ve a tendency to judge people by their own terms so… I’ll just about buy it.
I liked the android scientist character. Kind of convenient he was programmed with so much dalek tech knowledge though rather than just the fake memories of creating daleks themselves… but I’ll accept it as the daleks probably felt a bit more honey in the pot helps their ends (oo-er) and they are arrogant and prone to underestimation.
The last twist with the bomb was good, but the solution was…. rather bad. Next time my computer stops working properly I’ll stick a USB lead up my bottom and think sad and saucy thoughts see if the computer stops mucking about. Yeah, I know I’m exaggerating, but that wasn’t good.
Overall it was a decent fun episode though.
> I think it was mentioned but I missed it.
If this had been a well-scripted, well-directed episode there wouldn’t be any sort of confusion. Because it wasn’t made clear to us, when they appear in space it’s more of a ‘what?? bleurghpfft*sigh*’ moment rather than ‘YES! COME ON!!’
OK there was one great moment and that was the Dalek saying ‘you do not require tea!’ when the Doctor was bashing it!
I just wish those Daleks really didn’t know who or what they were. It would have made it far more interesting and that was something I was looking forward to. It should have been played as the Doctor feeling broken because even his greatest enemies are lost to him. What is he without the Daleks? It’s similar to the situation between him and the Master.
> It should have been played as the Doctor feeling broken because even his greatest enemies are lost to him.
Might be an interesting read, but well it’s not much fun for the kids is it?
One of the traits of the Moffat-Era Show already seems to be keeping the spirit of childhood right at the centre of things. We had kids feature heavily in the the first two episodes, we know one shows up during the Weeping Angels story. Tonight seemed to be an extension of that.
Gattiss in all fairness to him did state in Confidential that he set out to capture the feel of bank holiday war movies rather than anything overly complex.
It struck me as being a pretty dumb episode, one of style and name dropping over any particular substance, but again it’s all part of the show isn’t it? The dark, more complicated episodes we treasure of as gems because they’re for us (the grown-ups) and because we’ve gone through all the daft stuff to get to them. Then again I quite liked Evolution.
I just noticed:
‘Spitfires in Place’
should be
‘Spitfires in space.’
Obviously. I’m not sure why I capitalised ‘Place’ either, like it’s a title…
I’ve accidentally substituted the wrong word for another that sounds the same before (there, their, they’re for example) but I’m not sure I’ve substituted another rhyming word.
Liked it. Didn’t have the soundmix problems, but then I’m in America and had to watch the episode by (YARR HARR FIDDLE DEE DEE - Ed.), so I don’t know. I’ll be watching the episode later in glorious pie-definition, so we’ll see if the sound problems occur in that version of the episode.
Despite some duffness - the Bracewell-bot didn’t quite work for me, and the resurrection of the Daleks (arf!) felt very contrived - I would still say that this is probably the second-best Dalek story the show has done since its revival, sitting right behind “Dalek”.
Well, at the risk of being flamed for saying that was a ropey episode; that was a ropey episode.
First 10 minutes were great with a nice air of mystery about the Daleks’ ulterior motives. Doctor losing his temper was similarly impressive.
And then it all went wrong. The jammy dodger stuff was fine, but the reason behind the deception was messy…and the outcome was a bunch of distinctly camp looking Daleks who failed to threaten any future menace by not doing a bloody thing. They didn’t kill anyone (barring a couple of pilots) and their grand scheme - the bomb (how cunning!) failed to detonate. I’m not sure why the Doctor was so downbeat that these particular Daleks scarpered.
And the last ten minutes hinted at a twist that never came. With bucket loads of running time before the end credits, I assumed that something else was going to happen. But it didn’t. We got a bunch of goodbyes and another crack in space/time (and this, sadly, is getting so repetitive it’s becoming redundant…Bad Wolf, it aint).
I don’t really get why this story was set in WW2. Moffat gave Gatiss the premise “Daleks and Churchill”, and he seemingly got bored with that after 15 minutes. A missed opportunity.
On the plus side, Amy was great and the quandry other why she doesn’t remember the Dalkes is nicely intriguing. And it was a damned sight better than Evolution.
> We got a bunch of goodbyes and another crack in space/time (and this, sadly, is getting so repetitive it’s becoming redundant…Bad Wolf, it aint).
The crack patterns are far more blatant than Bad Wolf’s early appearances, but there seems to be another, more subtle mystery building up around the date discrepancies. It’s not just the hospital name badge and Amy’s memories of the Daleks - if I can quote a couple of other people’s posts from over on the xkcd forums:
The Doctor has been landing in the wrong time on every Tardis trip so far. Twice with Amy (12 and 2 year errors), and 1 month late for Churchill. And now I decided to check The Beast Below, and the years don’t add up there either. At the beginning the Doctor says the Earth was fried in the 29th century (800 years in the future), and later estimates that Liz 10 is 300 years old. So he thinks he’s 1100 years in the future, but the computer in the voting booth says Amy is 1306 years old. 200-year error.
You know, it seems like the Tardis is being drawn to the cracks in time rather than the other way around? I mean, that’s why it keeps missing I think. Like trying to throw darts with a big magnet a few inches to the side
I like that theory…
I’m not convinced by the “late landings” as a running theme..
His “12 year late” thing in The Eleventh Hour just seems like a nice plot point to introduce Matt Smith, the time-travel element and an antagonism between Amy and the man that let her down. The “2 years late” thing could simply be due to pushing Amy’s story forward and giving her something to run away from (her wedding).
I’m not denying that there’s more to Amy that we don’t know though, as there’s clearly something weird about her.
As for Victory, the reason he’s a month late is to give him a reason for being there. Churchill said that he’d phoned the Doctor when the Daleks first arrived as he was concerned and wanted his assistance. However, a month has now passed and he has since warmed to them (and no longer feels the Doctor NEEDS to be there); creating tension when the Doctor reveals that they are dangerous.
>I’m not convinced by the “late landings” as a running theme..
Me neither. There could be something in it, but this series is certainly not the first time he has been late.
> I’m not sure why the Doctor was so downbeat that these particular Daleks scarpered.
Because they’ll be out there causing mischief and he knows at some point he’ll have to confront them again, and by now, he is so very tired of them I’d imagine.
Interesting stuff concerning time discrepancies, in episodes so far. So possibly spoilers.
I’ll admit, I didn’t notice most of that.
It was pretty good though a number of poor moments.
The first ten minutes with the mystery of what was happening with these Daleks was more interesting than the rest of the episode. After that we enter historical romp mode and after the admittedly fun battle with the spitfires in space, it seemed that this would have been a better episode if it was constrained by a smaller budget. Given the miracles they work with money on the show, this isn’t really a fair point but there may have been a better episode in a different version of the story.
Also, even though it totally contradicts my previous point about budget, I’m disappointed we didn’t have a WW2 Dalek version of Dr Manhattan vs The Viet Cong.
Getting sick of The Doctor’s self-mythologising - “You Know What Davros Called Me - Iron Balls the Badaass” etc etc.
The final scene with the Android was unsatisfying. He’s an immortal with a bunch of fake memories (Am I right? I may have not heard some dialogue). Quite what he’s going to do in 1940 I don’t know. May as well have gone with the Doctor. There was a lot more that could have been done with the character rather than run after a non-existent woman (Am I right? Someone tell me).
Despite these concerns, it was enjoyable enough to merit four stars for me.
I’m fairly certain the Doctor said at some point that Bracewell had been given someone else’s memories. So it’s possible the things he remembered did indeed exist.
Watched it a second time (the HD version with vlc player, and the sound mix was perfect) and it’s even more apparent what a weak episode it is.
Amy saving the day again would have been great if she had had more than two meaningful lines before that moment. When she says ‘ever fancied someone you know you shouldn’t?’ it’s like she’s about to declare her love for Bracewell! Relating this statement to anything real on Amy’s part would have been a good idea here, even if it meant suggesting she fancies the Doctor. She calls him ‘Paisley boy’ a couple of times and then she’s supposed to be able to have this meaningful moment with him? Nope, it’s hard to buy, harder to buy than spitfires in space. Really poor scripting and directing.
> it’s like she’s about to declare her love for Bracewell!
I thought that. I also thought it was a little dissappointing that after The Doctor saving the day with such brains and swagger in the first episode that the resolutions have been handed to Amy in the first two adventures. Not that there’s any reason to keep count, but so far I’m waiting for more from The Doctor himself.
Aside from whether it was actually any good, could it be that the episode suffered a bit from just not being Moffat penned? Sure we had Moffat episodes in the RTD era, but for Gattiss the reference points would be David Tennant and the RTD era. By all means Moffat could have shared scripts and provided information on Smith’s Who, but it’s not the same as seeing the end product. It’s a little early perhaps to start discussing Smith’s own personal tropes, but both The Doctor and Companion felt a bit more generic in VotD than they had previously.
I think Amy is causing the cracks. I don’t think the TARDIS is finding the cracks. i think the cracks are finding her. Of note is that we’ve only seen cracks in the last two episodes after they’ve left, as though she’s leaving them in her wake.
I thought that. I also thought it was a little dissappointing that after The Doctor saving the day with such brains and swagger in the first episode that the resolutions have been handed to Amy in the first two adventures
The Doctor saved the day in the first episode, and Amy did in the second, true. In the third, I saw it as more of a team effort though. The Doctor came up with the idea of how to stop the bomb and Amy took it that step further, rather than opting for a different option altogether like she did the previous episode. I quite like that… although I thought that the idea that persuading a robot he is human would cause the bomb to deactivate was so much bum-fluff.
It’s also curious that people complain about the companion saving the day rather than the Doctor. As if it’s a new thing. I’ve seen Old who episodes (not many granted) where the companions would often save the day.
I think Amy is causing the cracks. I don’t think the TARDIS is finding the cracks. i think the cracks are finding her.
Good thought!
14-minute Steven Moffat video interview:
http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/features/steven-moffat-interview-doctor...
Very interesting - but I was a bit surprised by how many hints he gave about certain things (including something about the 2-parter coming up), so don’t watch it if you don’t want any hints at all about what’s in store.
The interviewer does mention the 1990 date on Rory’s hospital badge, and Moffat gives a surprisingly definite answer about that… BUT DO WE BELIEVE HIM…?
When asked about the scale of the series finales (“season finales - now more intimate than ever!”), he gives some vague-ish hints about how grand the scale might be for both this series and what he’s sort-of got in mind for series 6 - another thing I was surprised he said anything about at all! But this line will be very promising to those who thought that RTD’s finales were undermined by their universe-in-peril ambition:
“It’s dramatic if you’re threatening the universe - it’s equally dramatic if you threaten one person. It has to be huge for the characters.”
He’s also asked about the possibility of companions from other time periods, and mentions that RTD was very close to introducing a Victorian companion. I’m not sure if that’s ever been revealed before (haven’t read The Writer’s Tale).
Interview with Alex Kingston
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s7/doctor-who/tubetalk/a215175/alex-kings...
Rather pleased that TTOA is not the first time that River meets The Doctor as it seems that they’re taking their time with this arc and revealing the extent of the relationship gradually.
The first episode of the downloadable games is to be called ‘City of The Daleks’. More interesting is this:
The TARDIS materializes in 1963 - and London is in ruins. The Daleks have seized control of time and the only chance of saving Earth lies in a desperate quest to Skaro, the Daleks’ home planet - before time catches up with Amy, the last survivor of the human race!
I imagine a large ammount of continuity debates have just opened on Galifrey Base…
>But…but…Skaro blew up!!
If only they had a time travelling device hanging around somewhere….
Oh.
;)
> I’m not sure if that’s ever been revealed before
Yeah, the maid role that Martha ‘played’ in Human Nature/Family of Blood (set in 1912? thereabouts) was at one stage what her original character was going to be. I’m glad RTD didn’t go that way in the end, even though Martha was kind of wasted and unfairly held up as not being Rose in her modern incarnation.
Despite Moffat’s comments I think Amy will be harder for audiences to relate to, partly because she’s a bit wacky and her story is fairly mysterious, and also because she seems to be a lot more on the ball than past companions, already saving the day twice in her first three episodes. The Doctor is the more familiar character where Amy is a bit of an enigma.
While he dismissed the ID card again he didn’t confirm Amy’s timeline. I’m not sure if he has in a past interview but he didn’t answer it here so it could still be an important point.
Steven Moffat BBC blog post talking about the next two episodes, with a short clip that’s just as good as the other one that’s been released so far. Spoilers! ;)
Eurogamer and Guardian previews of the adventure games. The Doctor and Amy talking about the Beatles? A trip to Skaro? I’m in! Instant-death stealth sections where you use a point-and-click interface to negotiate the Doctor around Daleks with Commandoes-style vision cones? Uh-oh…
> If only they had a time travelling device hanging around somewhere….
> Oh.
> ;)
Wait. No. This has blown my mind. Surely if the Doctor could travel back in time and land on Skaro at a point when it hadn’t been blown up then the Daleks living on Skaro at that point in time would still be flying around invading God knows where and generally causing havock. And yet the Doctor is always still surprised when he encounters them, suggesting Skaro and the Daleks no longer exist at any point in time. So surely what you suggest isn’t possible?
Maybe :S
Is there something I haven’t thought of?
The Daleks are very much a part of the Doctor’s own personal timeline, and it’s already been clearly established that he can’t cross his own timeline.
But then that doesn’t explain River Song.
Ow. My head.
Um have we officially decamped the Who talk from the G&T forum now?
Only, y’know… THE TIME OF ANGELS. Possibly the most un-Tottenham thing in exsistence. Completely non-non-non-non-non-hotspur
I honestly hand on heart think it’s up there. So many great lines, moments, looks, reactions, ideas. Absolutely everything I hoped the Moffat Era would deliver.
It was very good and nicely sets up part 2 with some interesting questions, but it wasn’t perfect.
I disliked the Angels murdering people. The idea of transporting them to the past and living off the potential energy of their unlived days was such an elegant, novel idea. Snapping people’s necks, in comparison, is a bit boring.
On a similar note, wasn’t keen on the “image of an Angel becomes an Angel”, mainly because it’s just seems like an unnecessary extra attribute. Ditto the Angel escaping the TV. This sort of thing would have worked perfectly well for another, original, monster. Well, just as long as it’s not a remake of The Idiot’s Lantern.
Oh, and River Song annoys me. But that wasn’t a surprise.
Yeah it was good.
Spoilers ahead:
I have mixed feelings about the extra powers the angels have developed though. The ‘image of an angel becomes an angel’ thing was brilliant in it’s creepiness. Genuinely quite scary.
That whole ‘doorways of the soul’ thing though… I’m not so sure. On one hand it adds a bit of extra menace, i.e. to stay safe from these things you have to keep looking at them, but if you look in their eyes (which in the circumstances is probably the most natural thing to do) they still might get you through the back door, so to speak. However it just wasn’t an issue in Blink! at all! Sure, the ‘image’ thing wasn’t either, but then the situation never cropped up, so that still fits. There probably would have been plenty of eyeballing going on though.
I guess that could be explained two ways:
1. the angels in Blink! as scavengers were under-powered, and the one on the ship was in it’s prime, having had time to soak up so much radioactive nourishment.
2. Maybe the characters just didn’t look at them in the eyes so long. From what I remember there was plenty of staring though.
And then there’s the ‘feeding on destiny’ concept in Blink! that was quite unique. That was explained okay in this episode (and what a creepy grotesque explanation that was) but it’s kind of been done before with the shadow beings in the library episode. It’s a shame they didn’t do something interesting with the angels established power. Sure that would have been a bit of repetition of Blink! but it would have kept things consistent and could have still be utilised in an interesting way for this situation I think. And radiation as nourishment is a far cry from destinies, I’d think, unless it just feeds different things in the angels. They might still do something with it next episode though.
I’m probably nitpicking though. The overall episode was great, and creepy, and I liked the two head/one head twist. I actually thought it strange why two headed beings would create lots of one headed statues. My mind didn’t take that extra step though. I thought maybe they were statues created from the later human colonists rather than the natives (although I didn’t quit buy it)… so that extra loop was brilliant.
Okay, looking back I realise I repeated what Pete said pretty much. (Sorry I didn’t notice his post. Surely I didn’t take 20 minutes typing mine and it slipped in the background?) As I said, I really did like the ‘image’ power though. And River Song is a lovely saucy minx.
After feedback from his friends, Skinner turned in a performance that was thankfully free of mugging.
It wasn’t really ‘strange’ as such. Though Mike’s appearance obviously happened because it was Adam Smith directing the episode (he directed various Streets videos, like Blinded By The Lights, which the opening of the ep kind of referenced) it’s just a small part, it’s not that jarring.
The pre-credits sequence was brilliant IMO, the kind of setup the RTD series’ tried to do on a number of different occasions and never quite got right but this time it was bang on. It felt exciting and it had a real scale to it. The whole ep did.
While a few things didn’t sit well with me (the Angel ‘speaking’ to the Doctor through the dead soldiers, and yes the snapping of the necks, though I don’t reckon that will be the full story, we never actually saw their bodies) this is probably the best first part of a 2-parter since The Impossible Planet (yep I rate it above Human Nature).
One thing…the supposed ‘scary’ part with the image of the Angel was slightly marred for me by the fact that all I could think of was how beautiful Karen Gillan looked! When she was looking straight down the lens I think I actually died for a moment there…ohhh come to me, and YES in that red jumper! ahem.
I’ve just seen a lineup commercial on the BBC involving a cartoon Graham Norton being chased by a cartoon dalek. Does anyone know if that existed before the banner fiasco or in light of it?
>The pre-credits sequence was brilliant IMO
Pound for pound, the best five minutes of Doctor Who for ages.
I’ve just seen a lineup commercial on the BBC involving a cartoon Graham Norton being chased by a cartoon dalek. Does anyone know if that existed before the banner fiasco or in light of it?
Before.
They should just go ahead and cast Graham in a series 6 episode, he’s obviously so desperate to get on Who. :P
Wow. Just watched this. Very strange stuff but rather good. In two minds about it, really. The Angels stuff underwhelmed me (what has happened to their powers of time displacement, dammit? and, most irritating of all, WHY can’t they attack Amy when she has her eyes closed?).
But then, that bloody big crack appeared and it took the story in a completely different direction. Madness. To be honest, with the way Moffat totally rewrote the angels as neck-snapping aliens with a bunch of new powers, it seemed a bit pointless bringing them back at all. Especially since they were suddenly sidelined.
I didn’t like the final scene; Amy pouncing on the Doctor. I get WHY she’s doing it, but it makes her seem a little too needy and vulnerable. And also a bit of a bitch to Rory. When Rose and the Doctor hinted at romance, it was “love”, this was just a quick shag before her wedding. Seemed off.
I guess we’re supposed to think that River will murder the Doctor at some point. Although since we still haven’t seen River meet the Doctor for the first time (and, presumably won’t be this series), it’s unlikely that we’ll get a proper explanation anytime soon.
Intriguing stuff about Amy’s true time. The manner in which it was revealed means that everyone is right to be bloody confused. Which is nice. Accidental placement of the 1990 ID badge, my arse…
Not really looking forward to Vampires in Venice to be honest. Looks distinctly filler. More interested in Simon Nye’s episode the week after.
> most irritating of all, WHY can’t they attack Amy when she has her eyes closed?
Well, I thought it was a nice little angle… monsters that attack you when you’re not watching them, coupled with a person who literally cannot open their eyes or they will die… I thought that was a great idea that didn’t actually end up going anywhere.
The teleport was jarring and annoying. Almost makes me want to use the dreaded DEM phrase…
As for WHY they didn’t attack Amy when her eyes were closed… there was an explanation although it wasn’t great. They were too preoccupied with the time crack to pay close enough attention to her; they just assumed, in their haste, that she could see as usual. Suspension of disbelief in full force there.
Although this series so far has left me underwhelmed most of the time, I am enjoying the detail and intrigue put into the story arc, and this two parter was just brilliant. And I still haven’t gotten to Blink or Silence In The Library yet, so I’m guessing I will appreciate it even more when I have caught up with the Angels/River Song backstories.
> The teleport was jarring and annoying. Almost makes me want to use the dreaded DEM phrase…
Yeah, if only River and the Doctor had discussed her attempts to set up the teleporter in advance of that escape. Then it wouldn’t be remotely DEM-ish.
OH WAIT THEY DID.
> Not really looking forward to Vampires in Venice to be honest. Looks distinctly filler. More interested in Simon Nye’s episode the week after.
I strongly expect the Vampires to be the hook, but the Amy story - which then leads on into the Nye story - to be the real meat of the thing. The fangs and bosoms are good for the trailer, but after that ending, and the ep we’re heading to afterwards, Amy’s issues are likely to be a bigger deal.
> Yeah, if only River and the Doctor had discussed her attempts to set up the teleporter in advance of that escape. Then it wouldn’t be remotely DEM-ish.
OH WAIT THEY DID.
I said ‘almost’, and whether they discussed it beforehand or not, it was still an easy out.
You’ve got to love that we’ve just had one of the most blatantly ‘wahey’ sexual moments in all of Who, backed up in Confidential by Moffat more or less saying Amy wants to shag the Doctor and there’s nothing more to it. Methinks Rory isn’t doing a good enough job of satisfying her…
OK it wasn’t played too overtly but Amy was trying to take his clothes off and she did throw herself on the bed ready and waiting for him to ‘sort her out’! While it was a nice, funny scene that they both played really well, it definitely does mess up Amy’s character somewhat. She goes from hugging him like a best friend two episodes ago to ripping his clothes off?? RTD must be rolling on the floor pissing himself laughing at this!
> While it was a nice, funny scene that they both played really well, it definitely does mess up Amy’s character somewhat.
No it doesn’t. If anything it makes her stronger - she knows what she wants and she makes no bones about it, whereas Rose just subtly hinted at her feelings, and Martha was too busy waiting to be noticed to actually grab the bull by the horns.
Amy grabbed. Hard.
>she knows what she wants and she makes no bones about it,
But the implication is that she doesn’t want THAT at all. And she doesn’t seem to want to get married either…and she’s doing that too.
>Well, I thought it was a nice little angle… monsters that attack you when you’re not watching them, coupled with a person who literally cannot open their eyes or they will die…
The Angels are not allowed to attack because they are quantum locked as soon as they’re seen by any living creature. And, according to 10, this isn’t a CHOICE, it seems to be completely out of their hands. So, if there’s no thought process on behalf of the angels that allows them to move…it’s not really a conscious decision to decide whether to move in the presence of Amy when she has her eyes closed.
>And I still haven’t gotten to Blink
You need to watch that now. Seriously. It’s not reliant on any surrounding stories and won’t spoil any other stuff you haven’t seen. But it’s bloody amazing.
I think Moffat was on the verge of blowing it with the sheer convenience of the Angels ‘instinctively’ thinking Amy would have her eyes open when she was walking around. You still blink when you walk, yes? We can let him get away with it though because it gave us the chance to see them move.
Well, I’ve never counted myself as a much or a Doctor Who fan, I tried watching Christopher Eccleston’s Doctor and fell behind after about 3 episodes…
I tried watching David Tennant and fell behind…
But I am so far sticking to this one so far, and it’s very intrigued so far. I’m finding Matt Smith to be an excellent doctor. It’s only been 5 episodes and already we’ve seen so many facets of his character.
Anyways, I’m very intrigued by this ‘crack’ idea that I thought would be a lot less signposted than it has been to be honest. But this I would count as my first ever piece of Doctor Who Fan Art and it looks like this:
The tracing of the crack itself took about 25 minutes, using two Screenshots from “The Eleventh Hour” which is a bloody long time minutely scrutinising every mouse click.
Anyways, there it is.
Enjoy!!
>But I am so far sticking to this one so far, and it’s very intrigued so far
So far, so good! :oP
Good job, Danny, with keeping on with the show, especially after the excerable ‘Victory of the Daleks’! Decent art too. It wouldn’t surprise me if an image very much like this makes it into the series itself, probably the finale. A huuuge crack across a starfield.
Good job, Danny, with keeping on with the show, especially after the excerable ‘Victory of the Daleks’! Decent art too. It wouldn’t surprise me if an image very much like this makes it into the series itself, probably the finale. A huuuge crack across a starfield.
>Good job, Danny, with keeping on with the show, especially after the excerable ‘Victory of the Daleks’
1. It was very, very far from execrable.
2. If you were to give up on Moffat’s Who after the quality of the first two eps, purely because of one slightly weaker one, you’d be a FOOL.
It wouldn’t surprise me if an image very much like this makes it into the series itself, probably the finale. A huuuge crack across a starfield.
Looking at it now, do you know what it reminds me of? The rip in space from The Beast with a Billion Backs.
One thing that does intrigue me is the shape, from a design point of view I would imagine it’s very hard to make something that is distinctive as a crack that needs to be recognised as it’s going to show up more than once, in various ways and forms. Very clever work by the production team. Than again it’s Doctor Who isn’t it?
If this does end up in Doctor Who, then it would technically be a spoiler, in which case I apologise. But if it’s doesn’t, then it’s not and therefore I don’t.
:)
> 1. It was very, very far from execrable.
When Daleks that look like huge, multi-coloured, plastic toys you could hire for a 6-year-old’s birthday party are one of the only passable elements of an episode, I say that makes it pretty close to execrable.
No more Moffat till the finale 2-parter. OK his mucky little fingers will be all over the following scripts (hopefully, in regards to Chibnall’s and Simon Nye’s…) but it’s worth noting we could be in for a rocky ride until episode 12. Though there’s been a bit of raving about the Richard Curtis ‘Vincent and the Doctor’
Looking at it now, do you know what it reminds me of? The rip in space from The Beast with a Billion Backs.
Actually the BwaBB crack reminded me more of the crack at the end of “The Sound of Drums”.
I’m loving Smith’s Doctor more and more with every ep - there were so many stand-out moments for the character in that last episode. He’s my favourite New Who Doctor, no contest.
> She goes from hugging him like a best friend two episodes ago to ripping his clothes off?
I don’t see it as inconsistent. There’s no ‘romance’ here, rather an understandable emotional reaction to a near-death experience.
> Hellooooo, new desktop wallpaper.
Likewise.
Nice one, Danny.
> I don’t see it as inconsistent. There’s no ‘romance’ here, rather an understandable emotional reaction to a near-death experience.
And the fact she’s supposed to be getting married! Knee-jerk reaction - ‘am I with the right man’, ‘will I ever sleep with anyone else?’ etc. I thought it was well done.
> Looking at it now, do you know what it reminds me of? The rip in space from The Beast with a Billion Backs.
Doesn’t it also remind you of the rip in time and space in the episode Ouroboros?
> Doesn’t it also remind you of the rip in time and space in the episode Ouroboros?
Nah, that was more dirty yellowy and sparkly glowy. And cheaper looking.
Don’t get me started on ‘non-space’
Hey, red heads are fiery, and I think you could always tell that she wanted to shag him ;) (well, it was a childhood obsession that stuck with her through puberty… y’know?)… Yes, my main contribution is about sexual tension.
I am loving the new series, though. I take back all my “he’s not Tennant” comments… he is brilliant!!!
> I think you could always tell that she wanted to shag him ;) (well, it was a childhood obsession that stuck with her through puberty… y’know?)
It’s very reminiscent of The Time Traveller’s Wife which I’m reading at the moment - where they meet when she’s six years old and he’s thirty-two. There, a childhood companion and confidant develops into a loving and sexual obsession….
> Yes, my main contribution is about sexual tension.
I can relate to that. Maybe we should talk about that instead? ;-)
I finally figured out who Matt Smith’s Doctor reminds me of: Michael Palin, anybody?
Thought ‘Venice’ was great for what easily could have been another episode 6 throwaway. Matt’s Doctor continues to amaze and delight. The added Rory dynamic worked really well I think. OK it’s predictable that he’s jealous of Amy and the Doctor’s adventures but this didn’t feel annoying and the Doctor was straight with him, treated him with respect and was his friend by the end of the ep. The key moment is the Doctor shouting at Amy (very parent-like) to go back to the Tardis, then Rory’s ‘thanks’.
An average episode, but easy to watch due to Smith’s performance and all the good lines. Rory was surprisingly good, given how irritating he was in the Eleventh Hour.
Meh to that one and not a big surprise. I usually rewatch the episodes part way through the week, but I can’t see myself giving that another airing. Typical filler stuff.
I really liked the Stag-do scene, particularly the unusual cut to the credits…but it lost me soon after. Slightly surprised that none of the people in Venice were particularly interested in the Blue Box that suddenly materialised in the middle of the town. I don’t recall it every arriving in such a crowded place.
I like Rory and the dynamic with the three of them is nice. Also good to see a bit more of that Tardis set.
Next week looks very interesting.
> Slightly surprised that none of the people in Venice were particularly interested in the Blue Box that suddenly materialised in the middle of the town. I don’t recall it every arriving in such a crowded place.
Hasn’t there been an explanation thrown out about a perception filter in a previous episode? I think Eccleston mentioned it a few times, I think.
It’s the same reason no-one bats an eyelid seeing someone walking down the street in a stag do t-shirt. It’s Doctor blummin’ Who. And yes the Tardis has a perception filter making normal peeps hardly notice it at all. Though the Doctor could remove it if he was going to contemporary London. If it materialized anywhere around the city it wouldn’t get a second look.
Nah, if it materialised in modern-day London you’d just get loads of nerds clustering around it taking photos, like the one at TV Centre.
>Meh to that one and not a big surprise. I usually rewatch the episodes part way through the week, but I can’t see myself giving that another airing. Typical filler stuff.
This is the first episode I’ve really enjoyed. I was aware of the bits I should like in the first five, but I didn’t love any of them. This one I actually sat and watched and was able to enjoy.
>Hasn’t there been an explanation thrown out about a perception filter in a previous episode? I think Eccleston mentioned it a few times, I think.
In Boom Town Eccleston says humans ignore it, Torchwood’s magic lift is where the perception filter bit comes from.
Oh yeah, that spot is where the Tardis landed in Boom Town, yes? There’ll be some bullshit line of dialogue about the spot gaining residual energy from the Tardis or something, leaving the pavement with a perception filter.
So, if they are using a perception filter, they never needed a chameleon circuit then?
It was all a dream…
Anyway, I rather liked that despite the rather large central problem that Upper Leadworth was never going to be reality (a shame they over-egged it with making Amy pregnant). The Dream Lord stuff was interesting. Not sure about the final reveal as it creates the problem that it was all a big joke with no real danger, but the self-loathing that the Doctor seems to feel for himself is certainly an interesting aspect.
I found it a bit boring but interesting at the same time this week. Like watching a documentary about something boring like coffee mugs but with interesting talking heads like Peter Cook. If that makes sense.
I found the majority of the episode frustrating. It needed to have a satisfactory pay off for me to decide whether I liked it or not.
In the end, I liked it. Especially the final reflection. Doesn’t look like the end of the Dream Lord… an episode to set up a future story by the look of it.
> Especially the final reflection. Doesn’t look like the end of the Dream Lord… an episode to set up a future story by the look of it.
I really hope so because Toby Jones is bloody brilliant and that hint that he could return pretty much saves the episode.
A sort of despair squid situation this week! Loved it. It hit me partway through that the Dream Lord could be the Doctor or a version of him because of the bow tie. It’s not clear cut how much the whole thing was actually setup by the Doctor and how much was out of his control. Is he really that desperate for Amy and Rory to stick together? He obviously knows more than he’s saying at this stage.
Anyone spot a little Men Behaving Badly nod (Simon Nye wrote this after all), it was when Rory said Amy looked lovely, I’m pretty sure the lines were taken straight from an episode, Gary saying it to Dorothy.
I thought it was more like Rimmer’s Self Loathing Creature than Despair Squid
did anyone spot any of the time cracks in the episode last night ?
> Anyway, I rather liked that despite the rather large central problem that Upper Leadworth was never going to be reality (a shame they over-egged it with making Amy pregnant). The Dream Lord stuff was interesting. Not sure about the final reveal as it creates the problem that it was all a big joke with no real danger, but the self-loathing that the Doctor seems to feel for himself is certainly an interesting aspect.
This.
>I thought it was more like Rimmer’s Self Loathing Creature than Despair Squid
A bit of both really. It was a dream (Despair Squid) but controlled by the (self loathing) Dream Lord . Oh and a bit of a twist reminiscent of a certain film* at the end too.
I guessed the twist relating to the dream(s) but not the identity of the Dream Lord.
* I won’t say which film in case you haven’t seen it yet and it gets spoiled. Here are clues in case you’ve seen it: Vietnam. Freaky demon people. Cherubic doctor.
About halfway through I started to suspect the Dream Lord was an alter ego of the Doctor, but I thought he was doing it deliberately and knowingly (to force Amy to confront her feelings for Rory), and we were set for a Queeg-type reveal at the end.
So I kinda sussed out that twist, although I didn’t expect both to be dream worlds. It definitely felt a little familiar as a Red Dwarf fan (“well we’re back in real life now - oh wait, no we’re not!!” a la Better Than Life, Back to Reality, Back In The Red pt 3).
Still I actually quite enjoyed it because it had a different feel. It all felt a little disconnected but in a good way, which made it interesting. I may be inclined to say this was my 2nd favourite episode so far this series (after the 2-parter) but it warrants a second viewing before I commit to an Earth-shattering statement like that!
Something I’ve realised about this series, I’m really on edge during each episode, it never feels ‘safe’. This didn’t happen much during the Tennant era where sometimes I was stifling yawns left right and centre, there wasn’t enough intrigue or danger. Yeah you’d get it sometimes, particularly with Moffat’s episodes an then select others like Midnight.
Part of this has to do with Matt’s Doctor and also Amy and now Rory - there’s plenty that we want to know that hasn’t been revealed yet, giving us mysteries that we want to tune in for AS WELL AS seeing the monster of the week and all the fluff that goes with that. Moffat is delivering the series as one glorious whole.
In the past we didn’t really give a toss what happened with Rose or Martha’s stories (did we? and did they even have much of a story really??) though RTD decided to shake it up a bit with Donna in Turn Left and her ending. Moffat has placed the characters’ journeys above everything else this season.
Did anyone else enter the Big Finish not-a-competition writing opportunity?
This is my scripted scene for the Fifth Doctor & Nyssa audio play:
http://davewrotethis.blogspot.com/2010/05/big-script.html
This is my short trip:
http://davewrotethis.blogspot.com/2010/05/short-trip.html
First game episode out:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/theadventuregames/download/cityoftheda...
Downloading now…
Note that it’s still an “in testing” release - basically, a last-minute public beta - rather than the absolutely final version which will go live on Saturday.
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/39261/BBC-explains-early-Doctor-Who-release
Just watched “Vincent and the Doctor”, and I have to say Tony Curran as Vincent Van Cough was brilliant!
I didn’t notice any cracks in this episode, did anyone else?
I think there was a crack in the first painting we saw him doing. Not sure, I’ll have to check that later.
There wasn’t a crack in Vampires either, aside from the dialogue mention. The cloud thing is all viewer rorschaching.
There was a crack in the Tardis lock in Vampires, wasn’t there? Or was that a different episode?
EDIT Oh no I’m quite wrong.
Well that was a bit world cup tie in then. Hard to sympathise with Corden’s character given I’ve not seen G&S, think his world cup anthem is shit, and didnt like to see him and Patrick Stewart spatting at that award ceremony. Given all that I’d have been happy enough if the room upstairs had swallowed him, he was capable of much more sympathetic acting in cruise of the gods before fame went to his head. Matt Smith continues to be brilliant. The trailer at the end has got me pysched up for next week.
> Hard to sympathise with Corden’s character given I’ve not seen G&S, think his world cup anthem is shit, and didnt like to see him and Patrick Stewart spatting at that award ceremony.
D’you know, even though he’s been so in-your-face recently I still managed to buy him playing a character in this easily enough. I really wish he’d just stick to doing this kind of thing though. He thinks he’s an actor, writer, presenter, comedian, singer, everything. It just makes everyone want him off their screens when in fact we should have been looking forward to seeing him in ‘The Lodger’.
This series has failed to grab me as I thought it would do, mainly because it hasn’t had a run of excellent episodes, and the second two parter was so awful. I was looking forward to something on a par with Series Three, but this failed to build much momentum. I’m actually having a hard time with Amy. She showed promise in the first few episodes but the rest of the time has seemed to alternate between smugness and that wide-eyed expression.
That said, I rather liked The Lodger. I detest Corden “the celebrity” with a passion, but am fairly indifferent to him when he’s acting. This was an entertaining story although the finale felt rushed and underwritten. Not sure I buy the Doctor airkissing people. There’s a fine line between eccentricity and idiocy.
The Eleventh Hour : 4/5
The Beast Below : 3/5
Victory of the Daleks : 2/5
The Time of Angels : 3/5
Flesh and Stone : 3/5
Vampires in Venice : 2/5
Amy’s Choice : 4/5
The Hungry Earth P1 : 1/5
Cold Blood : 2/5
Vincent and the Doctor : 3/5
The Lodger : 4/5
For me, the whole series feels like it’s slipped out of order somehow. That the action and underlying thread built to a crescendo (with The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood - especially the ending with pulling the Tardis piece out of the crack) and has then fallen off again for the last two episodes.
I’d have rewritten the odd line (to allow for the loss of Rory) and slotted the last two weeks episodes earlier in the series - perhaps with Vincent as the new episode four and The Lodger as the new episode six. That way - the first few episodes of the series are suitably dramatic enough to reel in new viewers, and then you get a steady build up to the finale. I was left this week thinking ‘is it really the beginning of the finale next week?’ The only thing that had me geared up was the trailer!
So, what, pushing all three two-parters into the back half of the series, with the last two running consecutively?
I can see the argument for pulling The Lodger forward to, say, ep 4 (filming realities notwithstanding) and arranging for the ring-finding scene (the only part which has to be post-Rory) to be at the end of Vincent & the Doctor - where the “not crying” scene would have been fresher in the non-hardcore fans’ minds, but that “not crying” scene is absolutely essential, and you need SOME pause between THE/CB and TPO/TBB.
> So, what, pushing all three two-parters into the back half of the series, with the last two running consecutively?
Why not? It worked perfectly well in Red Dwarf series VIII and OH WAIT
No, I didn’t mean all three two-parters at the end (my bad if I intimated that), Vampires in Venice and Amy’s Choice would still precede Hungry Earth etc. I guess I felt disappointed in how little reference there came in Vincent and the Doctor (i.e. at this late stage, no appearance of the crack etc)
Yes indeed, the crying inside bit is intriguing but really that line can be said by any vaguely psychic character in any incarnation of a late solus episode, not necessarily Vincent. After all, the 10th Doctor’s prophecy was given to him by a woman on a bus - random. I guess the (as you put it) ‘pause’ episode between the pair of two-parters in my opinion should have still maintained some form of energy and urgency which I guess I felt the Vincent episode was lacking.
> After all, the 10th Doctor’s prophecy was given to him by a woman on a bus
I wouldn’t hold that up as a particularly good example of arc-building…
Anyway, I wouldn’t trade the amazing undertone that Vincent’s depression is akin to mourning the loss of someone you don’t remember for anything. And certainly not so we can skip over the loss of a companion in order to keep the cracks-in-time truck rolling at top speed.
The idea that the episode could be adjusted by ‘a few lines’ to account for Rory seems to miss so much of what was implicit. SO much of that episode is about Amy’s loss. That it’s not hammered away in literal dialogue doesn’t mean it’s not there.
I don’t think you can equate an entire episode about intangible pain with a single line of thrown-in dialogue.
> After all, the 10th Doctor’s prophecy was given to him by a woman on a bus
> I wouldn’t hold that up as a particularly good example of arc-building…
Nor would I - I used it in the context of demonstrating that it doesn’t necessarily have to be characters of great standing who deliver the most powerful lines - lines that are central to the slow reveal.
> I don’t think you can equate an entire episode about intangible pain with a single line of thrown-in dialogue.
I wasn’t trying to, sorry if it seemed that way. I thought it was a great episode but for me the positioning (combined with The Lodger) seemed to wind down everything that bit too much before the finale - as per my original point, I almost felt a sense of surprise to learn that next week was the begining of the end as ‘twere compared to the earlier DW series.
It’s only an opinion - other people might have found the action across the series to be perfectly paced. But I thought I’d air my thoughts on it.
The past two episodes reminded me of how several times during The X-Files run you would get massive, earth-shattering arc events and revelations then next episode straight back to monster-of-the-week fare, and it often felt jarring. At least there have been some references to the main story within VatD and TL, no matter how small. Not to mention the fact that these have been two of the season’s best.
‘Victory of the Daleks’ aside (can we flush that one out an airlock please?) the only real balls-up this series is the sheer mediocrity of 90% of ‘The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood’. I know some people got a kick out of how classic series (specifically Pertwee) some of it felt but, frankly, it bored the arse off me. The good ending was sitting there, and probably Moffat-penned, but the rest was the only time it’s felt like autopilot on, yeah this’ll do etc.
The finale is obviously where the money lies, both literally in terms of budget and in delivering what we’ve been waiting for since ‘The Eleventh Hour’ (gonna watch it again before Saturday).
Normal service has been resumed. I am watching World Cup Live and I hate James Corden again. Phew.
I’ve only just seen The Lodger, but I’d say it was easily the best episode for the past few weeks.
The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood was disappointingly dull - I mean it *should* have been good, but never quite got there, and even Vincent wasn’t especially exciting for me.
There definitely has been a lull … I kind of lost the impetus to watch it as it was broadcast over the last few weeks, but I absolutely loved this last ep.
The revelation of the TARDIS shard should definitely have come last week, as the lack of the crack has made the impending finale seem sudden. Still, the Lodger is one of my favorites of this season. For those keeping score, my favorites have been:
The Time of Angels
Amy’s Choice
The Hungry Earth
The Lodger
Pete Part Three:
The Eleventh Hour : 4/5
The Beast Below : 3/5
Victory of the Daleks : 2/5
The Time of Angels : 3/5
Flesh and Stone : 3/5
Vampires in Venice : 2/5
Amy’s Choice : 4/5
The Hungry Earth P1 : 1/5
Cold Blood : 2/5
Vincent and the Doctor : 3/5
The Lodger : 4/5
My scores would generally be a point or two higher than yours: I’d give 5s to The Eleventh Hour and the Angels two-parter, and The Beast Below and Vincent and the Doctor would both get 4. And The Hungry Earth and Cold Blood would only be 1’s relative to the rest of this series - neither of them came close to “Fear Her” levels of badness.
For what it’s worth, using the time old tradition:
Utopia >>> The Lodger > Boom Town >>>>> Turn Left
>and the Angels two-parter
See, I like the Angels Two-parter. But I can’t help thinking that, despite the fantastic opening of TTOA, it went off the boil quickly. My main stumbling block with Flesh and Stone is that the stuff with the angels gets derailed by the crack stuff…and manages to be far more interesting.
>Utopia >>> The Lodger > Boom Town >>>>> Turn Left
Yup. Although waking up to find a dog doing a shit in your mouth is better than Turn Left.
That was even more epic than RTD’s bombastic big ‘uns.
Hang on… Russell T. Davies’ Bombastic Big ‘Uns… thats a spin-off book too far isnt it…
Will Doctor Who showrunners ever tire of falling back on the Daleks and/or Cybermen for virtually every series finale? I get it, they’re his main antagonists, but they could be used more sparingly.
Still, that has no bearing on the quality of the episode which I thought was one of the best of this series. Niiiice cliffhanger.
The Cybermen scary for the first time in new Who? For that reason alone I rate ‘The Pandorica Opens’ extremely highly. Then there’s…well, just about everything else in the episode, which was amazing!!
Roman Rory is a friggin’ Auton! Amy’s dead!! (we’ll see…:D)
All the enemies teaming up is a little hard to buy (particularly the Daleks’ involvement, they’re coming across so pathetic atm) but you can’t fault the way it was pulled off.
How in the holy heck do you get out of the cliffhanger?? Er, apart from using the vortex manipulator that was set up earlier in the episode…
I liked it a lot. I loved how they tied together characters from various episodes at the start… . And they used a Hitchiker’s Guide gag too with the big writing on the cliff-face! (I wonder if that was intentional or just a coincidence?)
And a nice twist at the end, although I guessed the identity of the most dangerous being in the universe. Except I thought it might be a future (or rather possible future) insane version rather than who we got.
I’ve spent all afternoon trying to work out why the sound the mechanical Cyberman head makes is so bloody familiar. Then it occurred to me – it’s the “laughing” sound the Skutter made when Rimmer’s photo went from LEVEL to NOT LEVEL in “Back to Earth”.
Will Doctor Who showrunners ever tire of falling back on the Daleks and/or Cybermen for virtually every series finale? I get it, they’re his main antagonists, but they could be used more sparingly.
I’m still waiting on the Raston Warrior Robot to return. I’m sure a full story could be built around them.
…pandoricaopensdidntreallydomuchforme…
Ha Ben you’re right!
Plenty of times on new Who I’ve heard certain library sound effects that I (very sadly, I know) recognise from other shows and games. Don’t know if anyone’s played Perfect Dark or Morrowind but sounds from both have definitely been in Who. A noticeable one in ‘The Eleventh Hour’ is the sound coming from the crashed Tardis when young Amelia approaches it, it’s the Morrowind dungeon background fx! Spell casting sounds get used a lot too.
Will Doctor Who showrunners ever tire of falling back on the Daleks and/or Cybermen for virtually every series finale? I get it, they’re his main antagonists, but they could be used more sparingly.
I think the episode would have felt odd without them, to be honest. “Yes, Doctor, we are an alliance of your deadliest enemies! Except the Daleks. They weren’t in when we called. And I think the Cybermen are watching the football tonight. But apart form them, muahahahaha, etc.!”
That episode was MADE of fucking win. And a fantastic cliffhanger. The Doctor’s challenge speech to the ships really gave me the chills as did seeing the crack on the screen of the Tardis. And the moment they put the Doctor in the Pandorica was awesome on a stick.
Loved the fact they drew the threads from the rest of the series all together. Nicely done. Can’t wait for next week!
I think the Doctor’s defiant speechifying is the one thing I’m not keen on in these series. I understand while it makes the hair rise on other people’s back though, it’s certainly dramatic.
I found it amusing when they turned the joke back on him in The Lodger. “I’m the oncoming storm! Oh wait, you meant…”
(Not exact words not having a photographic memory.)
> I found it amusing when they turned the joke back on him in The Lodger. “Not on my watch. I’m the Doctor, I am the oncoming storm and…you meant the football, didn’t you…?”
I did snort with laughter at that bit. And I’d say that was a bit of piss-taking on Curtis’s part.
> The Doctor’s challenge speech to the ships really gave me the chills
I really loved this too. I don’t think anyone but Matt could have delivered it in that way either, at the right level of fearlessness but not so grand that you lose the fact that it’s the Doctor and not just a shouting actor.
> And I’d say that was a bit of piss-taking on Curtis’s part.
‘The Lodger’ was the Gareth Roberts episode. Get it right, girl! :)
> ‘The Lodger’ was the Gareth Roberts episode. Get it right, girl! :)
*facepalm* Never write about piss-taking WHILST pissed. Never a good idea…
The speech scene was great… but, in retrospect, makes no sense. The Doctor seemingly persuades them to go to war with each other so they all bugger off, apparently to have a massive ruck. We later find out that they’re all chums.
For me, that’s why that scene makes PERFECT sense. It’s a speech so sharply written that it’s entirely credible as a plot development, while at the same time the content illustrates the very reason they’ve clubbed together against him. He thinks he’s cleverly pitted them against each other, but it turns out that his world-saving bravado is meaningless - they’re sat waiting for the Pandorica to open just like he is. They were going to wait regardless.
They just need him to *think* he’s been successful in his speechifying, so he’ll stick around for the opening. It undercuts the Doctor entirely, rendering something that’s been a key skill useless at exactly the right moment.
Made sense to me.
>They were going to wait regardless.
So why turn up thirty minutes before the opening?
>so he’ll stick around for the opening.
Was there ever really a chance that he wouldn’t?
>> They were going to wait regardless.
> So why turn up thirty minutes before the opening?
Bazillions of ships arriving at the same place from all across time and space…I think we can describe turing up half an hour before the opening as ‘on time’.
But the answer, to me, is “to lock the Doctor in place”.
Letting the Doctor think they’re having a ruck so as to strengthen his position on the ground - making it even more certain that he’ll place himself directly between the Pandorica and them, where he wants to be AND where they want him - adds up as far as I’m concerned.
Turning up at the last moment wasn’t an option, since the stones were transmitting and the Doctor knew things would be on the way. Showing up at the last second, he might not have placed himself where he did.
>> so he’ll stick around for the opening.
> Was there ever really a chance that he wouldn’t?
He might have gone for the TARDIS. Not to flee, but to work. Was it a big chance? Maybe not. But you don’t build a strategy and then leave a gap if you can help it. Sure he might have run (River asks him to). He might have come up with another idea if he’d had the chance, something that took him away from the doors of the Pandorica.
If he’d run off to the TARDIS - him instead of River, and that ain’t outside the realms of possibility - the whole thing fails. Drop in Daleks and Cybermen and you fix him in place. Taking a stand is what this Doctor does. And he takes it between foe and quarry. No foe means room for fluctuation.
Ah well, anyway - as with anything like this it’s basically possible to argue either side within the fiction. It either ‘feels’ right or it doesn’t. (The cause of the Doctor being stranded in The Lodger never felt right to me, ‘explanation’ or not.) If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. Just did to me.
I think I would have preferred less enemies in the room at the end. Just one of each race would have been a lot better, and definitely not as many races (the Judoon and Silurians are so obviously there to make up the alien-y numbers). The supreme Dalek trundling out of the shadows flanked by a Cyberman and a Sontaran, perhaps. Or maybe just the Dalek representing all of them. It would have made it more personal.
Theory for next week - we’ll come back to Amy and Auton-Rory and Amy will come around; she’ll be alright due to some timey-wimey thing stopping her from being killed OR it’s similar to Back To The Future where she knew she was going to be shot so wore something to protect her, even if she only knew to put it on subconsciously, the memories of what the Doctor told her when she was seven (what we will see him tell her in ‘The Big Bang’) filtering through…
More emotional stuff with Amy and Auton-Rory where they wonder whether they can stay together in Roman times, even though he’s a bloody Auton. The Doctor or River will eventually come for her and she has to leave him, cue more tears.
By rights, once the Doctor is safely (if temporarily) disposed of, the Daleks, Cybermen, et al should all get down to kicking seven shades of crap out of each other - anything else would be OOC.
That I would like to see. But it ain’t gonna happen.
OR it’s similar to Back To The Future where she knew she was going to be shot so wore something to protect her, even if she only knew to put it on subconsciously, the memories of what the Doctor told her when she was seven (what we will see him tell her in ‘The Big Bang’) filtering through…
Oh damn, I must have left it on the dresser…
Awesome awesome awesome! LOVED the playing around with time.
The bits that really touched me:
1) Rory choosing to wait 2000 years for the woman he loves.
2) The Doctor talking to the sleeping Amelia - “I thought you might remember me. Stupid old Doctor.” Fantastic stuff. He’s never seemed so ancient and tired to me.
Question - the ‘sad/reminiscent’ music - wasn’t that used at the end of Tennant’s last episode? If so, I found the continuation really touching. Lovely piece of music.
Big spoilers ahead:
They used the Kryten time gag from The Inquisitor to get The Doctor out of the Pandorica!
Okay, I’m sure it wasn’t intentional. It’s not difficult to come up with that idea for timey-wimey stories. It makes things really confusing and a bit of an easy get out (with time travellers you could use that to get someone out of trouble every time if you wanted. Not that they do that often in Who.). It’s a plot device that I think works better in the more comedic universe of Red Dwarf though… but with all the other time stuff in this episode it was interesting nonetheless.
Just using the sonic screwdriver to open an unopenable box though….
Oh well.
Wonderfully entertaining and interesting episode overall. Some terrible plot resolution though.
Bad stuff:
- People vanish from time. Completely. Unless you want a threat to be regenerated by Pandorica light* in future in which case they leave convenient 3 dimensional solid ‘echoes’.
- Exploding Tardis conveniently in placed with just the right amount of distance/space to act as an artificial sun. Unless that was intentional by River or whoever hijacked the Tardis…. (there are still dangling threads yet to tie, to be fair.)
- Many are deleted from exitence except our heroes who are conveniently in the eye of the storm. Why? How?
- Planting a memory somehow magics the Doctor back from the other side. Okay, I get that she’s absorbed a lot of ‘crack energy’ but… how does that work? That’s as bad as the rejuve gag in the episode with the flying balls. No, no, no.
Good stuff:
- The time stuff. That really was interesting. I’ve often thought the fact Doctor Who hardly ever uses time travel except as a plot device to get people from a to b was a shame, so this was really welcome. And that was a long sentence.
-Tying up stuff from other episodes.
-Silly dancing.
-Fez shooty bit.
-Amy (almost) says future Rimmer’s line from Stasis Leak!
So an entertaining episode overall. But that plot resolution at the end….Dear me…
*I actually didn’t mind the regenerative affect of the light and it’s method in bringing Amy back. It makes sense that a box created by beings, some with the most evil minds to have exited, would want to create a hell for the person imprisoned. Constant regeneration with no escape… that’s pretty nasty…
Well what a big old pile of pants that turned out to be.
EDIT
“Well what a big old pile of pants that turned out to be.” is a lie
…and so the Doctor filled in Amy’s crack!
Sorry…..I’ve been waiting weeks to type that.
There were many things that slightly narked as I was watching the finale, but overall, it didn’t bother me. I enjoyed it!
Agree with the “bad stuff” from ChrisM’s above post……Also, Rory waited for 2000 years and was still wearing the Roman centurian uniform up until WW2. Then he decides to upgrade his clothing to blend in.
> Just using the sonic screwdriver to open an unopenable box though….
It was always meant to be openable with the sonic screwdriver, that’s how I see it. The Daleks, Cybes et al (or whoever really created the Pandorica) didn’t expect the screwdriver to be anywhere but inside.
I loved a LOT of it, especially Matt, Karen and Arthur’s performances. Matt in particular giving us his very best and, for me, selling the Doctor as, well, the Doctor more than Tennant ever did and probably Eccleston too. Love love loved his quiet scenes with Amy, both young and old. And a great big HA to anyone who stubbornly believed that scene in Time of Angels was a continuity error!
Does it all make sense?? No. Did we get all the resolution we wanted?? No (though we should have guessed he wouldn’t reveal River yet, this wasn’t really her story). It entertained me, that’s the main thing, and I can’t wait to watch it again in HD.
More garbled than Journey’s End and nowhere near as fun. I think we’ve all become used to RTD making us worry about every character in his season finales and all we had was a stone Dalek before the inevitable, impossible reboot bit. Disappointing stuff. This series really has been a bit of a lightweight and in my opinion the first series of the new run not to have a great episode. A lot of very good ones but nothing really special.
This series really has been a bit of a lightweight and in my opinion the first series of the new run not to have a great episode.
You, sir, are certifiably insane.
I enjoyed it A LOT, but I couldn’t help thinking of the mainstream audience being uttery, utterly bewildered by it. It was just as batshit crazy as anything RTD has done, with the disadvantage that casual viewers really wouldn’t be able to follow much of it. I realise that most of the people in this thread aren’t casual viewers, but the majority of the 6 million people who watch this weekly are. Not what I expected from a season finale, more what I expected from a mid-season episode.
It didn’t make much sense which I was surprised by. You could argue that time travel stories rarely do, but Blink, to use an exhausted example, makes perfect sense. A
Who was the voice in the TARDIS? Are we going to get a definitive answer, or is this another case of “Who was the woman in The End of Time?”
Journey’s End and The Parting of the Ways were better. It was about 2673 times better than The Last of the Time Lords though.
> Who was the voice in the TARDIS? Are we going to get a definitive answer, or is this another case of “Who was the woman in The End of Time?”
Both of these questions will be answered, I’m sure.
As for this series not having a truly great episode…I can see why someone might come away from it with that opinion, mainly because there haven’t been big standouts of pure amazingness like we saw in series 1-4 (many of those, of course, coming from Moffat, and Cornell’s two stories). What we did get was a standard that was high throughout (save for Victory) and thankfully free of the embarrassing bollocks that also plagued the RTD era (again, spitfires in space…).
What we need for series 6 is an extra-awesome effort from at least one of the other writers. Toby Whithouse, Gareth Roberts and particularly Simon Nye did commendable jobs this series but we really need someone to come in next series and…do a Moffat. ‘Amy’s Choice’ was the closest we came to that this time.
I’ve just watched it for the second time and I’m still blown away by the scale of the awesome.
Too many wonderful moments to mention …. but the scene at Amelia’s bedside has to be the greatest thing ever - can I have Smith’s babies now, please?
Any plot niggles I have are just that - niggles.
I just watched it because I was on my way to a They Might Be Giants concert when it was aired, and I must say it’s my favourite finale out of the 5 series and the specials. Then again, I thought the last Christmas special was a bit naff, and according to my friends-who-are-Who-fans it was really good.
Matt Smith had me as a fan right from the Eleventh Hour, he’s been just wonderful. Also the lack of a whole Rose-type romance thing let me enjoy this series a helluvalot more than the previous series.
The thing for me that Matt Smith does well is to play the Doctor as both a youthful and young life loving individual and an aged wisened timelord……often in scenes that followed on from each other. He is totally convincing as both and is exactly how the Doctor should be played. I can see why he was cast in this role…..could it possibly have been anyone else!!?
(Please, DON’T answer that!!)
> could it possibly have been anyone else!!?
Unlike with Tennant I’m really dreading Matt’s departure, even now with it (hopefully) being many years down the line. Who exactly could follow this portrayal?? It probably would take someone like Eccleston, a total contrast in tone and no nonsense, for it to be even worth bothering with a 12th Doctor.
The way Matt combines newborn giraffe-like actions, your history professor trying to be cool, an old war hero who’s gone a bit loopy, somebody’s home and the lights are flickering with genius. He IS the Doctor in a way that very few have been before him.
‘jump starts the second big bang?!’
Brilliant end to the most consistently good series of Dr Who yet in my opinion. Even Cordon didn’t ruin it.
Disappointing stuff. This series really has been a bit of a lightweight and in my opinion the first series of the new run not to have a great episode. A lot of very good ones but nothing really special.
Were we watching the same stuff?
I loved about 95% of that. As a finale it had a lot going for it, the potentially confusing time travel was handled well and it answered some bits well while leaving enough questions to suitably intrigue and irritate. The married couple travelling with the Doctor is an interesting dynamic to explore and I look forward to the exploration of River Song’s background.
Matt Smith has totally captured the character of the Doctor as the irrerevant, dark , damaged, mind-game playing old man that is desperate to survive. The boy can act like he’s fifty years older than he is and its a joy to watch.
Having said that it is quite amusing to see how the Doctor seems to be extermination proof. I suppose its the whole thing that he can’t be killed the same way twice, Tennant survived a several hundred foot fall through glass which would have killed Baker, Tennant had already been exterminated so it just mostly killed Smith.
Well that was a bit fucking good wasn’t it? Sorry I’m late to the discussions. Spoilers are hard to avoid…
This was my first full series of Doctor Who, I’ve stuck at it, and although i’ve only seen a handful on broadcast, I’ve watched them in at least the same week so IT COUNTS.
I’ve seen snippets of other people playing the Doctor, briefly, but I really haven’t seen anyone play a character with so many facets. Brooding, moody, and downright mental at times, and yet energetic, sympathetic and downright mental at times.
I have to agree with Hummingbird’s comments about the bedside ‘talk’, and I don’t know whether I am just remembering people telling me that Matt’s incarnation is more akin to the Older more classic Doctors, but that scene. I was watching and hearing an old man, in his ‘final’ hour and that was really powerful to me. I also guessed the ‘old, new, borrowed, blue’ thing early on as well. Was fairly pleased with myself there.
From what I’ve seen from Steven Moffat’s stuff outside of Who I’ve always found intriguing and extremely clever, so wasn’t worried about Who (and as I understand, no one else seemed to be, either)
So for my first series, it was brilliant really brilliant fucking awesome.
Saw this on another forum…….
……looks like the crack in time to me!!
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2010/06/image-of-the-day-the-ghost-...
> So for my first series, it was brilliant really brilliant fucking awesome.
<Cyberman>
Excellent!
You will be like ussss
</Cyberman>
I haven’t rally enjoyed any of the new Who series… well, the Eccleston one was okay but Tennant was awful. However I have very much enjoyed Matt Smith and this series. That is all I have to say.
I really have to stand by my comment above. I really don’t think there has been a 5/5 fantastically brilliant episode in Series 5. Certainly no Blink or Human Nature/Family of Blood.
And the series has been a lightweight. The series finale had no bad guy. Most of the series had no bad guy. The Dream Lord or whatever Toby Jones’ character was called was a Stone of Hallucination +4, Van Gogh was battling a very unimpressive invisible bird that couldn’t see. I suppose the Silurian episode had a good villain because Welsh people having tedious dilemnas with lizard things gave me a horrible flashback to Series 1 of Torchwood. The Hungry Earth had some spaceship that had a misunderstanding or something. God knows. The Weeping Angels? The Weeping Idiots more like. Her eyes are closed, do what you always do when their eyes are closed. Send them back in time! What? Snap their necks? Oh okay. And the finale was just the Doctor in a museum for an hour while a Stone Dalek showed up and shot him but didn’t kill him for no clear reason and then River Soong killed it with a Gun of Plot Convenience after telling the Dalek her name.
This series has never made any sense. The bomb in Doctor Bracewell, torturing the Star Whale for no possible reason, Amy remembering the Doctor makes him magically cross whatever impenetrable thing he couldn’t cross. In fact everything in the Series Finale didn’t make any sense. Rather than being a crack in the universe I think there’s been a crack in Moffat’s logical thinking. And something. And stuff.
Though I have to admit even though I don’t think there was a truly great episode, it has been always very good (apart from the Star Whale episode) and is the most consistent series of New Who to date. and Matt Smith and Karen Gillan are wonderful. But with the loss of the Time War mythos and the low number of decent adversaries this series did feel lightweight to me.
It doesn’t really seem like you’ve been paying proper attention to the series, Rad. Pity.
What Moffat achieved was something DIFFERENT in terms of series arc, villains etc. I’m so glad it didn’t follow the formula of series 2-4 of all the shit episodes in the middle and the dire dire finales, along with taking the companions’ characters in stupid directions (Donna was okay), too much flash and no depth, all the cheese (of which we saw faaaaaaaar far less this series, you’ve got to admit) etc. etc. etc.
Bottom line is…this was Moffat’s first year as showrunner and it clearly wasn’t without incident behind the scenes, so let’s see what series 6 brings!!
“Amy remembering the Doctor makes him magically cross whatever impenetrable thing he couldn’t cross.”
Amy grew up near a crack in spacetime caused by an exploding Tardis. When Rose did a bit of sniffing the old tardis juice for a short while she gained powers over life and death at at least the atomic level throughout all of spacetime, that lead to both the non exsistence of the nearby daleks and the permanent exsistence of Jack Harkness. Amy had years of inhaling a Tardis/Spacetime cocktail. Giving her a stronger mental ability to mess with the quantum mechanics of the edges of the newly known universe, creating a rent in the space-time continuum. A singularity, a point in the universe where the normal laws of space and time don’t apply. Using this magic door she allowed 1 immagrant in. There goes the universe!
The series made sense, there is both high concept sci fi ideas based on the kind of science in the more head scratching chapters of a stephen hawkings book, and multi layered theme’s appealing explaining the same ideas to children and non scientific minds in a more poetic manner.
Dr who episodes dont always need a big enemy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Edge_of_Destruction
I’m glad they broke the need for monster of the week, and moved on from time war mythos.
I, for one, am glad there wasn’t a Doctor-lite episode. Or was there one that I didn’t notice?
But all of the Doctor-lite episodes so far have been brilliant - including the Moff’s own “Blink”. What kind of point are you trying to make?
They have, but by the same token - Smith is so utterly brilliant that an episode without much of him in would have been a waste of a precious episode slot.
It sounds terrible to say it, but we could actually cope without much Tennant for a week each year…
> But all of the Doctor-lite episodes so far have been brilliant
Turn Left was arse.
They have, but by the same token - Smith is so utterly brilliant that an episode without much of him in would have been a waste of a precious episode slot.
It sounds terrible to say it, but we could actually cope without much Tennant for a week each year…
Indeed. I had issues with Tennant for most of his tenure, and I actually enjoyed ‘Blink’ all the more for his absence.
Seems a lot of Smith praise requires pooping on Tennant…
Dr who episodes dont always need a big enemy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Edge_of_Destruction
Turn left was a great concept. Granted, it could have been executed better if it had been written by anyone who wasn’t Russell T Davies, but “creepy pointing Spanish housemaid” aside I rather enjoyed it.
>it could have been executed better if it had been written by anyone who wasn’t Russell T Davies
I have a Chris Chibnall that disagrees with you.
Can’t think of anyone but Moffat who could have given it better treatment. And even then it might have gone all timey wimey and lost the emotional core. We will never know…
I think it’s a shite concept. It’s meanders through a bunch of sequences showing different POV’s to the events of old episodes, tied together by Rose somehow having all the answers for no conceivable reason. People who like it no doubt look at the sombre tone and think it’s deep and thoughtful. It’s not.
> tied together by Rose somehow having all the answers for no conceivable reason
Except she works for Torchwood on Pete’s World, and by that point has been for at least two years.
I think it’s a shite concept. It’s meanders through a bunch of sequences showing different POV’s to the events of old episodes
How is that a shite concept?
Showing old stories as they happen - differently this time - is a good concept. It’s why it’s been done so often. (To death, one might say.)
Showing old stories to a character who doesn’t have a direct connection to much of it (“who are Torchwood and why do I care if they’re dying in space?”), and who only acts as witness rather than protagonist, is a rubbish concept.
And doing a story about how ‘important’ a character is, only to discover the only useful thing they ever did was made an arbitrary decision based on traffic - after which they remained passive for the rest of their existence - is disastrous.
Turn Left wasn’t a “Donna is special” episode, despite constantly repeating that it was. The actual message was “We’d be stuffed without the Doctor, and Donna would be stuffed along with the rest of us”. Which I don’t think came as news to anyone.
Lots of good bits, but overall it’s a massively clumsy script.
> Lots of good bits, but overall it’s a massively clumsy script.
Well you would know.
If you’re going to be a cock end, pm, at least try to be a correct one.
Hey I’m simply referring to the fact that Andrew knows what he’s talking about regarding clumsy scripts, with him being a script editor and all.
Donna’s big decision in Turn Left isn’t Left or Right, it’s whether or not to help Rose on the promise of a better life which at the last minute she discovers she won’t live to enjoy and yet she does it anyway.
If Donna is special it’s because she gaveth of her life so that we might live.
Re-using elements and reappropriating them, does not a clip show make, go and watch TNG’s Shades of Gray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNP3LM2GiDk
that’s a fucking clip show. 17 minutes of new footage spread over 44 minutes with clips showing events that the character in question wasn’t party to the first time around.
Speaking of which, the original, unused ending to “The Eleventh Hour” found its way to YouTube today. Definitely worth a watch.
Jonathan Capps / Tue, 2010-04-06 11:07
As the old thread is getting dangerously close to paginating and we’re now into the broadcast of series 5, let’s start afresh.
I think the best rules for this thread would be to ban all known spoilers for future episodes and keep it to discussion of episodes that have already aired in the UK, information released through official channels and good old fashioned speculation.
So, GO.