Bad Continuity in Gunmen

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  • #223526

    Ben Saunders

    I’m sure everybody and their mum is already blatantly aware of this, but at the start of Gunmen, Rimmer is in his old, red, hard-light get-up. I thought this was a case of the episodes being in the wrong order/Gunmen being shot before Legion and him actually just being soft-light because he hadn’t touched anything by this point, but then Lister has that line about firing up his “hard-light drive” so what the FUCK.

    And then when they come out of the AR machine, Rimmer is wearing his blue suit again for NO REASON.

    It’s shit like this that really makes me hate Red Dwarf, honestly.

    I don’t think I can even watch M-Corp after this.

    #223527

    Pete Part Three

    The line itself was an attempt to fix the continuity mistake of Chris being in the wrong costume.

    #223529

    Ben Saunders

    Was it really, hahaha. It did feel a bit tacked on, honestly. But it doesn’t really fix the continuity error because he still changes jackets at the end of the episode. Was all the blue jacket stuff pre-record ( or the red jacket stuff) or did they realise midway through the recording and change jackets like idiots?

    #223533

    bloodteller

    watched the episode again to see what you were on about, and he changes into the blue (hardlight) uniform just before entering the wild-west AR simulation, then he’s still wearing the blue uniform when he leaves. i fail to see the problem

    #223534

    Seb Patrick

    Yeah, it’s very simple: at the start of the ep he’s in soft-light mode to conserve power, then he switches to hard-light to be able to play the game. They literally say it in dialogue.

    #223536

    Hamish

    Pardon me for being thick, but just because Rimmer has hard-light available does that mean he must have it on all of the time?

    It is not like you see him touching anything with the red jacket on?

    #223537

    Hamish

    And that, ladies and gentleman, is what happens when you fail to reload a thread.

    Good points lads, well made.

    #223539

    Ben Saunders

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmnm do they say it in dialogue? I must have missed that line. It actually would make sense given the whole silent running thing. So was it a cock up quickly covered up with last minute dialogue, or not a cock up at all?

    #223542

    performingmonkey

    > So was it a cock up quickly covered up with last minute dialogue, or not a cock up at all?

    Well, when your arse is on the line…best to get it sorted.

    #223543

    performingmonkey

    This whole debate clearly influenced Father Ted. ‘you were wearing your blue jumper’

    #223544

    Pete Part Three

    >So was it a cock up quickly covered up with last minute dialogue, or not a cock up at all?

    I think it’s stated in The Programme Guide that it’s last minute dialogue. It’s definitely *somewhere*. You can quote me on that.

    And let’s face it; it seems like it s too. Rimmer’s power-source (his light-bee) is obviously independent from Starbug’s (he doesn’t switch from Blue > Red when they go to “silent running”, he’s already in red).

    Would anyone be particularly fussed that they he was in blue, despite Starbug powering down? Unlikely. Would they get a ton of complaints if Rimmer could touch the gamepad while dressed in red? Probably.

    #223545

    Seb Patrick

    >he doesn’t switch from Blue > Red when they go to “silent running”, he’s already in red)

    Maybe he had already switched to soft light as part of the process of going to silent running, with Lister’s game being the last thing left?

    I really don’t see the issue here. Legion makes it clear that soft light = red, hard light = blue. At the start of Gunmen they are in the process of powering down systems, so Rimmer has gone back to soft light. In order to play the game, he switches to hard light, something Lister explicitly says in the dialogue that they will do.

    If the costumes were a continuity error, they’re an extremely fortunate one that fits the plot of the episode exactly.

    (Now, as to why Rimmer has his hard light outfit in the Blue flashback, that’s another question…)

    #223547

    Taiwan Tony

    Just don’t watch Gunmen of the Apocalypse. It’s not that good an episode anyway!

    Troll mode: cancel.

    #223550

    Pete Part Three

    >If the costumes were a continuity error, they’re an extremely fortunate one that fits the plot of the episode exactly.

    It was. They were.

    I’ll dig out the Programme Guide later, but it’s something like “…when someone on the crew pointed out that Chris was dressed in his original red costume, a line was hastily added to imply that he could switch between soft-light and hard-light”.

    >I really don’t see the issue here.
    My point is that if they really wanted to sell the point that Rimmer needs to power down to soft-light. they’d have done something with the idea in the scene itself. As it is we get a somewhat clunky line later that serves no actual purpose except to explain that he can switch between the two.

    #223552

    Toxteth O-Grady

    >As it is we get a somewhat clunky line later that serves no actual purpose except to explain that he can switch between the two.
    He also does it again much later in the series 10 episode where he switches to soft-light to walk through a wall (Entangled was it?). It’s nice that this ability was established in a bit of clunky dialogue 19 years earlier

    #223553

    McAleeCh

    To be honest, at least with <i>Gunmen of the Apocalypse</i> they noticed the costume error and managed to add some dialogue to make sense of it! Whereas in <i>The Inquisitor</i>, Rimmer’s randomly wearing his green outfit from the previous two series (though with the newer serif-font “H”) for all scenes prior to Lister and Cat being erased from existence, only to switch to his regular Series V costume for the rest of the episode. Given that it wasn’t even shot first, and doesn’t seem to have been intended to go out first either, does anyone have any idea how exactly <i>that</i> gaffe happened?

    #223554

    bloodteller

    given that when Rimmer’s green outfit changes to the red one, Cat’s outfit also changed, i always assumed it was to signify that these are the versions of Cat and Rimmer that no longer remember Lister and Kryten- the timelines have just been altered when the costume change happens

    #223555

    McAleeCh

    That makes sense – but then if we’re following that logic, surely he should change back to green when the Inquisitor’s erased at the end of the episode?

    If that was indeed the intention, since the red version was intended to be his regular outfit for Series V, they should have reversed the two and used his green outfit to signify that this is the Rimmer who doesn’t remember our Lister/Kryten – and obviously change him (and Cat?) back at the end!

    …Maybe they just really, really wanted to use the no-jacket-and-braces version of his outfit in the opening scenes? I can’t recall ever seeing that being done with the red version of the outfit…

    …Incidentally, although it’s off-topic, all this talk about Rimmer’s outfit has made me realise his most consistent look throughout the series is now the Series X-XII look – none of the others have lasted more than two series!

    #223556

    Toxteth O-Grady

    I don’t think the Inquistor costume thing can really be counted as an error, unless you consider his colour change between series IV and V an error too.
    Sometimes he’s in green and sometimes he’s in red. There doesn’t really need to be any logical reason behind it, so there’s really no error.
    Isn’t there both a red and green hologram when the crew are interviewing Rimmer replacements in Holoship? Plus the Hologram-Camille was in red while Rimmer was in Green. I think it’s just a way of differentiating people onscreen (particularly in the Inquistor case).
    In the real world, wasn’t the costume designer inspired by the Hologram-Camille to put Rimmer in red for series V?
    One of the reasons the Rimmer munchkin scene from Blue is a highlight of the series for me, is the attention they put into the differing Rimmer costumes of the puppets!

    #223557

    McAleeCh

    I guess you’re right re: it not really being an error as such – it just sticks out to me as it’s the only instance of him not wearing red in Series V! Good catch with the different-coloured holograms during the interviews in Holoship. = )

    And yes, completely agree re: the munchkin song puppets! Wish they’d had a Series I-II version in there somewhere too, though that probably wouldn’t have looked spangly enough compared to all the others. XD

    #223558

    Dave

    I just can’t believe no-one has mentioned the hard-light yellow outfit from Out Of Time yet.

    #223559

    si

    What about the the hard-light yellow outfit from Out Of Time?

    #223560

    si

    No, actually, what about the Rimmer from the double-double future, with the blazer and pencil moustache?

    #223561

    International Debris

    (Now, as to why Rimmer has his hard light outfit in the Blue flashback, that’s another question…)

    I always put it down to simply being a bit of an inaccurate memory, as it’s effectively Lister telling a story of them having fun. But maybe I can just deal with it better because it makes more sense than the blue uniforms in the Ouroboros flashback.

    #223562

    Jawscvmcdia

    So can somebody explain why Rimmer is in a red costume in what is clearly a Series VII promotional shot?

    #223563

    KyoSo

    That configuration of the crew never existed anyway.

    #223564

    Seb Patrick

    >So can somebody explain why Rimmer is in a red costume in what is clearly a Series VII promotional shot?

    Because that’s the costume he wears throughout series VII?

    #223565

    Jawscvmcdia

    Seb, doesn’t he wear a blue costume in Series VII?

    #223566

    KyoSo

    It’s called a light.

    #223567

    International Debris

    Rimmer’s in four episodes of VII, and the only version of that padded costume he wears is blue. So that is an odd photo.

    Mind you, the appearance of Kochanski in her JMC Blue Uniform That Nobody Ever Wore Other Than In That Scene getup whilst in Starbug is also odd.

    It’s almost as if promo shots aren’t canon. :/

    #223568

    Jawscvmcdia
    #223572

    Captain Bollocks

    “Sir, are you absolute sure? It does mean changing the [Rimmer’s costume].”

    #223574

    Darrell

    We worked this out a while back – that’s Chloe Annett’s first filming day (insert sequences for Ouroboros and Blue) and they wanted to do some press shots while Chris Barrie was still on the production so they threw together what they could on the day. Chris Barrie has been hastily thrown into his red VI costume changing out of his blue JMC uniform (to look more recognisably Rimmer-y, and perhaps the blue version was out of service or being prepped for another scene), Danny John-Jules is wearing a cobbled together non-canon Cat costume (my guess is that he was either playing alternate universe Cat that day or brought in specially) and Chloe’s wearing that because it’s the only costume she’s had that’s yet screen-ready. The Kryten costume looks a bit lop-sided, *possibly* because Robert Llewellyn had the gold version on (if they were shooting the alternates scene I just mentioned) and changed on the hoof.

    #223576

    Seb Patrick

    >Seb, doesn’t he wear a blue costume in Series VII?

    Nope, definitely red. I checked.

    #223592

    Ben Paddon

    Um.

    #223593

    MANI506

    Don’t make me watch VII again!

    #223594

    Seb Patrick

    Seriously, it’s red.

    #223599

    Lily

    OK, you clearly needed someone with too much time on their hands, and that person is me!

    Series 1
    Uniform
    Undies, Uniform
    Uniform
    Uniform
    Uniform
    Undies, Uniform, PJs, Clive of India

    Series 2
    Uniform, Clive of India
    Uniform, Arthur Dent
    Uniform, Variety of clothes in BTL (also in game doesn’t have H until “my brain’s rebelled” line
    Uniform, PJs, Suit
    Uniform, PJs, PE Uniform
    Cycling Lycra, Uniform

    Series 3
    Shiny Green with HHGTTG, Hot pink glitter suit, Noel Coward
    Shiny Greeen, Quilted Green jacket with HUGE RD logo
    Green tshirt and braces, Shiny Green, Give Quiche A Chance
    Shiny Green, Grey silk PJs, Lister clothes (white tshirt, black jacket), green tshirt + braces,
    Shiny Green, Green tshirt + braces,
    Green tshirt + braces, Black tie suit, Shiny Green

    Series 4
    Shiny Green
    Shiny Green
    Shiny Green, Mountain goatherd, Prision uniform
    Shiny Green
    Silk PJs + dressing gown, Shiny Green
    Green tshirt + braces, Shiny Green, US General uniform

    Series 5
    Shiny Red, Towel, Holoship uniform
    Green tshirt + braces, Shiny Green, Shiny Red
    White robe/Loin cloth, Shiny Red (No H until they lift off from Psymoon)
    Shiny Red, Gingham Dress (No H in King Potatoe People scene)
    Shiny Red, High/Low outfits
    Shiny Red

    Series 6
    Quilted Red
    Quilted Red LEGION APPEARS Quilted Blue
    Quilted Red in several scenes then ‘powers up hard light drive’, Quilted Blue
    Quilted Blue
    Quilted Blue (last week version Quilted Red)
    Quilted Blue, Quilted Yellow

    Series 7
    Blue quited with black line, Brown coat
    Blue quited with black line, Ace (no H?)
    Flashback Blue RD uniform,
    N/A
    Blue quited with black line
    N/A
    N/A
    N/A

    Series 8
    Ignored, as not a hologram

    BtE
    Shiny Blue

    Series 10
    Shiny Blue, Trojan uniform
    Shiny Blue
    Shiny Blue, Dusty robes
    Shiny Blue, Parka jacker
    Shiny Blue
    Shiny blue

    Series 11
    Shiny Blue, Suit
    Blue PJs + dressing gown, Shiny Blue
    Shiny Blue
    Shiny blue, Clive of India
    Blue PJs + dressing gown, Shiny Blue
    Shiny Blue, Operating scrubs, Artic jacket

    #223600

    Dave

    Quilted Red LEGION APPEARS

    I don’t remember a quilted red Legion appearing.

    #223601

    Lily

    Oh, I forgot to add that in Entangled when he switches to soft light, it’s a dodgy vis effect to make the blue suit look red. When he comes back out he’s blue again, but you see Chris give a little shimmy like he’s ‘changing back to hard light’. It was obviously too hard to put the red effect over him as he walked out the door so they left him blue and just randomly wiggling about.

    #223606

    McAleeCh

    Pretty comprehensive list there Lily – thanks muchly! = D

    One thing – I notice the list doesn’t differentiate between the Back to Earth and Series X-XII outfits, labelling both “shiny blue” even though they’re quite different takes on the same general concept. Otherwise it’s a pretty damn solid reference for all holo-Rimmer’s outfits, even noting the minor difference between the VI and VII “quilted blue” outfits! = )

    #223613

    Lily

    I nearly did make a point that the BtE outfit was a terrible cut and fit, but considering colour was the main point that just seemed to be splitting hairs.

    I think I actually like the series 3 outfits best. Having distinctly different sleeping, relaxing and working outfits seems more human than wearing the single same outfit 24 hours a day. Series 11/12 have at least bought back the PJs and dressing gown look, but tbh they don’t really -look- like PJs, just a blue shirt. There’s no real visual difference between them and the blue uniform.

    It’s a shame, he clearly -can- change how he looks when the story demands it, so why keep him in one outfit all the time?

    #223616

    Ridley

    <omg src””http://www.ganymede.tv/wp-content/uploads/beginning_review_1.jpg”>

    #223617

    Ridley

    Still a good joke.

    #223618

    Bexley Heath

    Meticulous charting and discussion of Rimmer’s various costumes? This is the thread 7-year-old me would have been over the moon to discover.

    30-year-old me’s pretty keen on it too.

    #223621

    Seb Patrick

    Pfft, come back when you’ve done it for Cat. And screengrabbed every one.

    http://www.reddwarf.co.uk/features/history/evolution-of-cats-costumes/index.cfm

    #223622

    Seb Patrick

    I was joking about the red costume in VII, by the way, but nobody really took the bait.

    #223641

    International Debris

    I was slightly hoping you’d get annoyed by us not taking the bait and then write an article on the official site about it to try and get us to bite. Didn’t happen, sadly.

    #223642

    Lily

    Pfft, come back when you’ve done it for Cat. And screengrabbed every one.

    A whole bunch of those are publicity shots! Speaking of which, this one – http://www.reddwarf.co.uk/features/history/evolution-of-cats-costumes/cat3-2.jpg – looks … odd.

    #223643

    Ben Saunders

    For YEARS I thought Chris Barrie wasn’t wearing an H in that infamous VII publicity shot, and that his forehead was just incredibly shiny.

    #223645

    Ben Paddon

    I figured you were joking, Seb, but I tripped over myself trying to find a way to “yes and” the gag.

    #223701

    Ben Saunders

    Alright, actual bad continuity (maybe): the Simulant ship gets blown the fuck up in Gunmen, but is intact (on the outside) in Rimmerworld. I did think they cut away from the explosion distractingly quickly in Gunmen, but now I’m thinking it was deliberate.

    I’m actually quite taken aback that we have real episode-to-episode, non two-parter continuity between two non-consecutive episodes in a series of Red Dwarf, with the same models and actors and everything. I hope it wasn’t laziness/cost effectiveness because I really like it.

    #223714

    Hamish

    Yeah, that is why I quite like Rimmerworld. That is until you actually get to Rimmerworld and it becomes Terrorform II.

    The teleporter gags good though.

    #223731

    Ben Saunders

    It is a bit Terrorform II in places. Feels a bit Meltdown too, mostly because of the jail+music.

    #223740

    Warbodog

    >real episode-to-episode, non two-parter continuity between two non-consecutive episodes in a series of Red Dwarf, with the same models and actors and everything.

    Earlier examples that come to mind:

    Same model: Meltdown matter paddle adapted into Demons & Angels triplicator

    Same actors: series I & II flashback / time travel scenes, Kochanski in Psirens and earlier eps, Bonehead’s mum.

    Series VI (mainly Emohawk) did seem to kick off the masturbatory continuity that made VII even more off-putting, with the return of the (different) Time Drive, Ace, the Kinitawowi in Ouroboros (for no reason) and the Back to Reality planet in Nanarchy. From series VIII, there’s generally been an anxiety of influence with callbacks and name-drops aplenty.

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