Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Ouroboros flashback sequence

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  • #1821
    Tonguetied
    Participant

    I have to say, the flashback sequence in Ouroboros is a strange segment indeed. The way those scenes are written remind me of the old relationship between Lister and Rimmer, it’s beautifully nostalgic, certainly for me since I adored the first few series. And of course it should be since it is a pre-disaster, pre-series 1. If only series VIII could have had more of the classic Lister/Rimmer banter, it would have been a much better gig. I really like the way Lister is given a hawaiian wardrobe, mixed with a leather waistcoat, thus merging the first few series with the later shows. Very nicely done. The blue jumpsuits used for the rest of the crew, obviously show what Doug would have liked the first few series pastel shirt, tie and trousers to have been like. But since this little nugget takes place in an alternate reality, it really doesn’t matter, I quite liked the different look, not as much as the original space core uniforms though, but they had their own sense of character. The dialogue is just so reminiscent as I mentioned before, of the original, two man show; ”You’re supposed to apply to a superior officer before you get shore
    leave, Lister.” and ”Didn’t I tell you you’d never bridge that class division? Take her:
    navigation officer, cadet school, Space Corps., well-spoken, can stay awake
    during operas, knows her cheeses. She’s class. And you? What are you?
    I don’t mean to sound cruel but in comparison you’re scum. And second-rate
    scum, at that.” and of course
    ”Your type isn’t Kochanski, Listy. It’s someone called ‘Tiffany’. It’s
    someone who drinks Campari and soda and wears orange crotchless panties;
    someone who thinks Deely-boppers are funny; someone who says ‘sumfink’
    instead of something.” This is great writing, and it’s why I think it’s probably one of my favourite parts of series VII. Of course across the whole series we have a number of flashback moments; Lister talking to Selby, Chen and Peterson in the bar. And they have all been some of the most memorable moments of the show. Watching these sequences it makes me think, yeah they should have had more flashbacks, deepening and enriching the characters stories, for example Lister’s arrival on RD would have been marvelous, his enrolment and meeting of peterson, just like in Infinty Welcomes Careful Drivers. Ah that would have been just magnificent wouldn’t it? Or what about the Cat, imagine if we could see how developed, or how the cat people created the portable crease iron. I think when these parts of the show come, they really deliver, they are short but sweet.

    #124149

    They could have even done a few pre-radiation leak episodes.

    #124150

    >Or what about the Cat, imagine if we could see how developed, or how the cat people created the portable crease iron.

    Yes yes yes yes yes! I’ve said it before and I’ll reiterate: The Cat’s character was almost criminally unexplored and underdeveloped in Red Dwarf, particularly in later series where he received almost no real attention in the scripts and became little more than a parody of himself. Even a flat character such as the Cat needed–deserved–to be explored more fully. Even if it came at the expense (as it probably would) of one of the excellent episodes that helped flesh out Rimmer’s character.

    #124151
    Tonguetied
    Participant

    (Yes yes yes yes yes! I?ve said it before and I?ll reiterate: The Cat?s character was almost criminally unexplored and underdeveloped) Exactly. It’s a real shame that a good indepth exploration wasn’t made into either the Cat himself or The cat race. It would have made for very intriguing viewing. And Identity Within could have been a really exceptional episode furthering the Cat’s development. However I do also believe that that’s the beauty of the Cat and his race, most of it is left to our own individual imaginations. For example where does the Cat sleep? We all have our own ideas. The fact that sometimes, there is no hard evidence on screen for certain aspects is great. No one is wrong and no one is right, we can all let our fervent brains run loose, we can be the creators. And I like that.

    #124158
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Yes, I really love this flashback scene. It captures the feel of series 1 and 2 about a million times more than series VIII could even dream of. It’s probably the only scene in VII that I’d say was flawless. But, right down to the characterisation, the dialog, the set, the costumes it was absolutely spot on.

    #124167
    pfm
    Participant

    > ?Your type isn?t Kochanski, Listy. It?s someone called ?Tiffany?. It?s
    someone who drinks Campari and soda and wears orange crotchless panties;
    someone who thinks Deely-boppers are funny; someone who says ?sumfink?
    instead of something.? This is great writing

    It’s all right but, like most of the later series’ jokes, it’s over-egged. The first line (which is definitely funny, especially said by Chris) is enough, or perhaps the second line too, but there’s absolutely no need for ‘Deely-boppers’ and ‘sumfink’. I’m convinced that copious script editing could have seriously improved VII & VIII episodes. Of course, once I’d finished with them the episodes would only be 5 minutes long, which kind of poses a different problem…

    #124168
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    How is that joke anymore over-egged than Rimmer’s mocking of Lister’s ‘plan’ in The End? There’s lots of bits added on to the end of the original joke, yes, but in both cases all the added stuff is actually *funny*, which overrides any problems with over-egging.

    #124169
    Phil
    Participant

    I’m actually with performingmonkey on this…though, for me, the “sumfink” bit is the best part. Both he and I feel the scene could be heavily edited…I guess it’s just a question of what would fall to the cull.

    (And for the record, I also think the mocking of Lister’s plan in The End is kind of horribly unfunny. “Mornin’ Farmer Lister!” is right up there with “What’s an iguana?” for me.)

    Me, I’d get rid of Kochanski’s order to Rimmer to have sex and Lister giving him the phone number…granted, most of the best stuff in all of Dwarf has to do with Rimmer being humiliated, but that one’s the only thing that seems truly mean-spirited. Perhaps because it’s not very funny. When you’re not laughing it’s easier to pick up on other things.

    And as much as I like Ouroboros, I must really be in the minority because the flashback bit is probably my least favorite scene. (“Oh ha ha” is classic, though, I have to admit.)

    #124172
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I?m not keen on the flashback scene at all, I?m afraid. The set and costumes are beautiful, but? well, what can I say? It just doesn?t make me laugh. At all. It feels like a recreation of the Lister/Rimmer relationship of Series 1, but devoid of all the things that actually makes me laugh at it. Sure, VIII has exactly the same problem – and again, I’m only defending it as compared to VII, rather than on its own terms – but it at least has more utterly stupid jokes that I can at least laugh at in a different way.

    I don?t think the first bunkroom scene in The End is the best thing Rob and Doug have written either, mind you. But it makes me smile – probably because it’s got the context of the rest of the episode backing it up. And the first part of it to do with the exams is quite good.

    #124181
    pfm
    Participant

    The ‘plan’ stuff makes me cringe a little, but fucking hell I think we can forgive them for it seeing as it’s in the first episode. I think the problem is it’s one of those moments where they make Lister seem genuinely stupid and thus annoying. Thank god Rob and Doug got over that hurdle

    #124182
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >right up there with ?What?s an iguana??

    Alright, people need to stop proliferating this crazy view of John’s.

    I’m only going to say this once : “What’s an iguana?” is a quite funny line, well-delivered by Craig. So stop ragging on it, y’hear?

    #124184
    Andrew
    Participant

    > ?What?s an iguana?? is a quite funny line, well-delivered by Craig.

    I concur.

    #124185
    Phil
    Participant

    >Alright, people need to stop proliferating this crazy view of John?s.

    I actually had no idea this was a view of John’s. I’ve been using it as an example of my own feelings on how shaky series I was. (I know I’m in the minority here, but at least I’m willing to admit it…)

    The Farmer Lister bit and What’s an Iguana? were downright cringeworthy for me. Though, as I say, I started watching much later in the show, when the writing was sharper and the performances more confident. It’s unfair to have judged the early stuff against the later stuff but…well…so be it. And series II has stood up like a powerhouse over the years, where series I is just full of little niggling bits like that that drive me batty.

    #124187
    pfm
    Participant

    > I concur.

    You’re brimming over with wrongability.

    #124188
    John Hoare
    Participant

    > ?What?s an iguana?? is a quite funny line, well-delivered by Craig.

    I concur.

    The strange thing here, of course, is that I think The End is far better than you do!

    Truth be told, I don’t really cringe at the line. I probably overstated my case somewhat – I hadn’t seen Series 1 in a while, and when I watched it again, it didn’t really bother me that much. It’s a throwaway line that doesn’t work for me, and I’d built it up in my head.

    But I don’t find it funny, and it does sit awkwardly with me in a way that very little of Series 1 does. It just doesn’t feel right. It’s just a weak “Lister’s stupid” joke that just doesn’t work for me.

    I think the timing is off as well, though. I wonder if a cutaway to a reaction shot of Rimmer after the line might improve it…

    #124191
    Andrew
    Participant

    > The strange thing here, of course, is that I think The End is far better than you do!

    I know, I was thinking the same thing!

    It is a ‘gag’ gag, though, of the type Series I barely did, but Series II+ used all the time. So maybe that’s part of the problem. It’s not the cutting, I don’t think – but it could be the utter lack of an audience laugh. Which, played right, it should have got.

    Then again, they didn’t go for it in The Original Assembly either…

    #124192
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Ah, I think you’re onto something with the audience laugh! I don’t think I would have found the line any *funnier* – but then, there’s plenty of Dwarf jokes that don’t make me smile that I never mention. It’s the lack of laugh that makes the line feel awkward for me.

    #124195
    The Disillusionist
    Participant

    Speaking of lack of laughs, has anyone here gone through every episode and noted down all the lines that don’t get an audience reaction? I started doing just that recently but then thought about what I was actually doing and promptly stopped. Also, it was harder than I thought to decide whether a certain line was *supposed* to get a laugh sometimes.

    For what it’s worth there were 17, um, laughlessnesses in The End (the iguana line has an asterisk next to it because one person stifles a chuckle) and only four in Holoship. But then again the audience were bankers for the first series(?) Or something.

    #124196
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I started doing just that recently but then thought about what I was actually doing and promptly stopped.

    This made me do a LOL.

    I think Series IV is *very* short on laughs from the audience, when you actually listen out for them – especially compared to Series III. There was a discussion on here about it a while back, and Andrew suggested that as it was their first year at Shepperton, they were still getting used to setting up the audience microphones, compared to the Manchester studios, where sitcoms were more often recorded.

    #124197
    The Disillusionist
    Participant

    Ah, interesting suggestion. I thought maybe the editing of some scenes might also have been the cause for some moments of audience silence and since I don’t know anything about editing it was just further proof that the project needed binning.
    Oh, and I hadn’t actually noticed Series IV being lower on laughs, but I’ll sure enjoy listening out for it next time wahey.

    #124199
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    “What’s an iguana” is awful. But then, consider the lead-in;

    “I’m alone in space with a man who’d lose a battle of wits with a stuffed iguana”.

    I’m not particularly keen on this kind of joke either as “a stuffed iguana” is more or less interchangeable with “a glass of water”, “a can of spam”, “12,000 PE Teachers” etc.

    It’s an extension of the torturous similes that peaked and died with Blackadder and the result is usually as lazy as an incredibly lazy thing.

    #124200
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I actually like those last three gags, although I think a lot of it’s to do with the delivery – something I don’t think Craig’s got on his side with the iguana line.

    But I think there’s a bit more to them than just the similes – the glass of water line is funny because of Norm’s indignance, the can of spam line is funny because it’s emphasising the real joke (“Yes, that’s because I’m dead!”), and the 12,000 PE Teachers gag has an extra twist – Holly’s IQ is 6000. If it was just 6000 PE Teachers (like the less amusing car park attendants joke) , it’s a straightforward gag – but the idea that each of them only has *half* an IQ point lifts it, for me.

    #124201
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Curtis and Elton seemed to enjoy taking the formula as far as it would go (“This is the stickiest situation since Sticky the stick-insect got stuck on a sticky bun”), and Simon Nye even offered a parody of sorts (“Are you mad? Are you madder than Brian Mad? Of Madcastle?”). Both make me laugh.

    I think my problems with Red Dwarf’s use of the formula are the same as with the Space Corps directives. It essentially a DIY joke because the formula is already there. “You’re about as X as Y”, and if y isn’t particularly inventive it doesn’t work for me.

    “You’ve got as much warmth as a service station chip”, for example, is just “You’ve got as much warmth as something that’s not particularly warm”. There has to be something more to it.

    Examples I like; “Death? It’s like being on holiday with a group of germans”, and “You’re about as much use as a condom machine in the Vatican”

    #124205
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I also dislike the service station chip line. For some of the same reasons that I don’t like the iguana line – I don’t think it’s performed very well, and it’s just a weak joke. And more than that, it just feels really forced – the rhythm of the line is all wrong. “Chip” just seems to hang in mid-air…

    But, well, as you know, I love the Space Corps Directives. I have no problem with formula comedy… if the formula’s a good one, and it’s done well.

    #124206
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    “There must be more electricity out there than the surge that went through the national grid during the commercial break in the Olympic all-girls custard wrestling finals!”

    ARGH! This line is probably one of a very few that jar with me. It’s just too longwinded. Yes it’s funny in context, but it’s just too long.

    ?You?ve got as much warmth as something that?s not particularly warm?.

    That line belongs in Blackadder, Pete.

    “I’m as excited as a very excited person, whose got a very special reason to be excited”…

    and so on…

    #124207
    Tonguetied
    Participant

    Yes, the service station chip line always makes me a tad annoyed. What were they thinking including that line in, it’s about as funny as a Men behaving badly episode.

    #124222
    Turk Thrust
    Participant

    I agree that that’s a poor line and the ‘it’s harder to get into than an airline Mini Kiev’is another example of that formula going wrong imo. First of all, it isn’t inventive as this sort of joke needs to be as someone already said and it also is something that probably very few of the audience can relate to at all.

    #124230
    pfm
    Participant

    > What were they thinking including that line in, it?s about as funny as a Men behaving badly episode.

    Yeah, I think it’s time we faced facts – Rob and Doug obviously couldn’t write for toffee. Simon Nye pissed all over them (now THAT would make an interesting television show…).

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