Re-watching X and XI before XII

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  • #221886

    Better Dead Than Smeg

    I started, randomly, with Give & Take (the theory being that if I mix X and XI together then maybe I’ll warm to the latter episodes of series XI). I liked this one. It was a hair away from being really good. That hair, however, is a gigantic, dark nasal hair. And, in fact, there are two of them:

    1. I’ll just say it. Captain Bollocks. For me, and this is only my opinion (who gives a shit, right? Well, you said it. Yes, I certainly did). For me, it’s out of character for Kryten and goofy rather than witty. You could argue that that’s what Doug was going for, and that’s fine, but to me something as simple as ‘Captain Y-Fronts’ would’ve made for a better fit (and who wants ill fitting Y-Fronts?). I just don’t buy that Kryten would refer to Rimmer as ‘Captain Bollocks’. But, hey-ho, it was a gag.

    2. Snacky. Or, more specifically, the decision to reveal that Snacky wasn’t, in fact, Asclepius, to the audience so early on in the show. What happened to the long wind up? And how much more amusing would it have been to discover it at the end, after all of the therapy and the organ replacement, if Lister, post-op, had pined for a Beer Milkshake and one had just popped out of a dispensing slot on Snacky’s chest panel (revealing the vending machine number and the Whatever Industries Inc. manufactured in … Bognor Regis, or wherever). Ending, obviously, on a push in on Rimmer’s fuming, reddening face. The intro to Body Swap springs instantly to mind.

    So that’s it for Give & Take. Generally good cast performances. For what it’s worth I think it’s probably one of the best of series XI.
    It could’ve been a classic.

    #221896

    bloodteller

    i have no clue what you were talking about in your second point

    #221900

    Dave Wallace

    I get the point about revealing Snacky too early, but the trouble with leaving the reveal until the end is that it robs the earlier scenes of the comedy that comes from the audience knowing what the characters don’t.

    #221902

    SoundableObject

    Rob the episode of LOW ON PRETZELS? Fuck that.

    Captain Bollocks is perfectly in character for Kryten bearing in mind Kryten is able to insult Rimmer behind his back. Rimmer was never supposed to know the name of the folder.

    #221905

    KyoSo

    If Captain Bollocks is out of character for Kryten, then so is the ending of White Hole. It’s clearly established he only has a problem with insulting Rimmer to his face, NOT behind his back. And the ending of White Hole is effectively behind his back, since their memories are erased.

    Besides, there’s no reason to assume Kryten came up with Captain Bollocks. I’d just have assumed he was going along with Lister and Cat’s gag.

    Also “bollocks” must be a far dirtier word than I realize as an American, because I’m kind of baffled anyone could have a problem with that joke going too far. It seems perfectly in line with what we’ve seen before on the show.

    but the trouble with leaving the reveal until the end is that it robs the earlier scenes of the comedy that comes from the audience knowing what the characters don’t.</blockquite>
    I agree completely.

    #221906

    KyoSo

    Fucked that up.

    #221913

    Ben Saunders

    Captain Bollocks was funny, but not t-shirt worthy imho. It’s not a classic line. Nor is it out if character. Butler trying to teach Kryten how to speak Gelf was overplayed as well. It was kind of amusing but not much beyond that.

    Revealing Snacky’s identity early is important because it provides the dramatic irony which makes Rimmer’s counselling session hilarious. Revealing him so early is also an interesting change of pace, something different. The joke is just as funny if they put it at the start as if they put it nearer the end, imo.

    Bollocks is barely even a swear word in the UK. It just means testicles.

    #221914

    Dax101

    My issues with give and take are

    *Doug really dumbed down the cat this season way more then any previous series

    *All that stuff with trying to trick the cat was for pointless in the long run

    *”I need to find the hero in myself” it’s out of place inspirational dialogue that was probably meant to sound better then it does.

    *”I’m a snack dispenser” repeated over and over because it gets less funny each time he says it

    #221919

    Warbodog

    Bollocks is barely even a swear word in the UK. It just means testicles.

    Apparently:

    According to research Ofcom produced in 2010, the word “b*****ks” was more acceptable to viewers pre-watershed than other more offensive swear words, and only second behind the most acceptable swear words such as arse and bum.

    Along with “bollocks”, Ofcom categorised “bloody”, “bugger”, “crap”, “Goddamn” and “pissed” as “higher acceptability” words that can be said on television before the watershed.

    I know the BBC cut it from a Star Trek episode where O’Brien yelled it. And I’d be surprised if it ever came out of Doctor Who’s mouth, though that would be pretty great.

    #221921

    Phil

    Everything involving Snacky is perfect and that is scientific fact.

    #221922

    Ben Paddon

    Snacky. Or, more specifically, the decision to reveal that Snacky wasn’t, in fact, Asclepius, to the audience so early on in the show. What happened to the long wind up?

    But that is a long wind-up, and more to the point it’s something Red Dwarf does very well. Case in point: “Kryten” revealing that the three survivors aboard the Nova 5 were, in fact, dead.

    #221927

    Dan

    Captain Bollocks actually seems to be an old gag between the cast from V (9:21 on this vid), so I guess, more in character for Robert Llewellyn!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YimJb0QKyU

    #221934

    KyoSo

    Wait…crap is a serious swear word somewhere.

    THE MORE YOU KNOW.

    #221935

    Dave Wallace

    Wait…crap is a serious swear word somewhere.

    Where?

    #221942

    Ben Saunders

    >I’d be surprised if it ever came out of Doctor Who’s mouth
    Honestly, hearing the Doctor say “go to hell” at the end of Series 8 was shocking enough. His language is extraordinarily tame, except when he’s telling Daleks to spack off

    #221943

    Ben Saunders

    Yeah the Kryten thing caught me off guard on my rewatch – would it have been funnier if they held the reveal then, too? I don’t think so, I think they’re both played perfectly. And revealing Snacky at that moment is really unexpected, and I like to be surprised by shows that have been going for 20 years

    #221951

    Seb Patrick

    1. “Bollocks” is easily one of the funniest-sounding swear words. It’s never not funny. I submit Blackadder and Father Ted as additional evidence for this.

    2. The scene is funnier precisely because it’s unexpectedly coming from Kryten’s mouth.

    3. Judging by the fact that it immediately trended on Twitter on the night of broadcast, I’d say it’s absolutely t-shirt worthy.

    #221962

    SarahWho

    Give and Take’s one of my favourites from the last series! But kinda agree about Captain Bollox, just wasn’t very funny, like a series 8 line. I didn’t mind the Snacky reveal, but it was just sort of there and there was no real pay off.

    #221968

    Better Dead Than Smeg

    The ending to White Hole works because Smeg is established and had a good amount of build up. Rimmer IS a smeghead. We know this. It had been used against to so much (implied or otherwise) that even Rimmer knew it, whether he would’ve admitted it or not.

    I would’ve preferred the reveal of Snacky towards the end of the episode, which to me (and, before we get upset, remember these are just my opinions) seems far more in line with the style of writing between series I-VI.

    The same goes for Kryten and the deceased female crew of the Nova 5. I remember laughing so hard at that scene when it originally aired. I never laughed at the reveal of Snacky. I liked the idea that he was just the ship’s vending machine, but it would’ve worked far better if it was more of a ‘and he was the vending machine all along’ type of ending.

    Again, just my thoughts on a sudden re-watch.

    #221969

    Better Dead Than Smeg

    Now that I think about it, you’re right, it feels very ‘series VIII’. I can’t remember the last time that I watched VIII. I only remember liking Cassandra as the standout of the series.

    #221970

    KyoSo

    I didn’t mind the Snacky reveal, but it was just sort of there and there was no real pay off.

    Um…the reveal is the payoff?

    #221971

    Dave Wallace

    The other problem with holding back the reveal of Snacky’s true identity is that the audience already knows he’s not Asclepius, because we meet the real Asclepius early on when Lister and Cat encounter him (which of course Kryten and Cat don’t get to see).

    So if you didn’t reveal Snacky early on, you’d just have people wondering who he was, given that we would know he wasn’t Asclepius. Which would make you anticipate the joke/reveal before the show tells you, robbing it of much of its impact.

    #221972

    Dave Wallace

    (Kryten and Rimmer don’t get to see, I mean.)

    #221974

    SarahWho

    Dave Wallace: Probably fair to say that if the Snacky reveal was later then they’d probably have rewritten the rest to fit too.

    KyoSo: And that’s kinda my point I s’pose, that it didn’t really feel like a payoff at all, like it had no impact where I think if it had been built up and left for a longer reveal so that we were discovering it along with the crew (yes obviously other parts would have to be rewritten too), then it would’ve been a much greater payoff. Still love this episode tho.

    #221976

    Dave Wallace

    Probably, but then you’re in the realms of saying they should have just written a completely different episode.

    #221978

    Dax101

    The captain bollocks thing seemed to be an in cast joke during filming series 5 in those rare smeg ups and when i see it used in Series XI it felt abit lazy to me.

    I dunno whether the cast mentioned it, Doug watched those smeg ups or just remembered the captain bollocks thing but its a joke that feels like Doug didn’t actually have to make that much effort at all and its being treated like its one of the classics when that name didn’t even seem good enough for rob and doug back in 1991.

    #221979

    Pete Part Three

    Reveal it to the audience early: audience laughs every time the crew make an incorrect assumption.
    Reveal to the audience at the same time as the crew: audience laughs once.

    You don’t get laughs ‘on credit’ when the audience thinks back to all the times they were incorrectly assuming something. That would only work on a rewatch.

    >The same goes for Kryten and the deceased female crew of the Nova 5. I remember laughing so hard at that scene when it originally aired.

    What’s your point here? As Ben has already been pointed out, we know the crew are deceased before Lister, Rimmer and Cat. Saying revealing Snacky’s identity at the end would be “more like Series I-VI” doesn’t really square.

    #221984

    pi r squared

    For me, it is the combination of the way Robert says “bollocks”, the complete unexpectedness of the nickname (bearing in mind we have also just come straight out of the excellent “and you are…?” gag), and the whole Kryten-insults-Rimmer-even-further-whilst-trying-to-apologise-a-la-Polymorph situation that makes the Captain Bollocks gag a definite highlight.

    It’s not really any more puerile than the likes of “Ace hole, maybe” or similar from the earlier series.

    #221992

    Ben Saunders

    I never said it wasn’t funny, I just said it wasn’t t-shirt worthy. It -is- funny

    #221995

    Hamish

    > ”I’m a snack dispenser” repeated over and over because it gets less funny each time he says it.

    Personally I think Mark Quartley’s performance really saves it from being the tedious bore you feel it to be to actually being quite hilarious.

    “I’m just a snack dispenser, I just dispense snacks” is certainly the line from XI that I find myself quoting the most in regular conversation, which also feeds into one of my lingering doubts about the series – that unlike even with VII and VIII, it just does not have that many quotable lines for me. X was chock full of them, especially the ones about Lemons.

    #222006

    Ben Saunders

    I never thought the Snacky jokes were run into the ground, but I thought Butler teaching Kryten GELF speak was. Interesting how different people have different opinions on the same thing, innit.

    #222009

    Seb Patrick

    #222010

    International Debris

    Mmm, the ‘maargh’ bit was, for me, an absolutely perfect example of a joke stopping being funny and then going back into funny again through the sheer amount of repetition. I’m sure TV Tropes has a name for this kind of joke, but I’m not going to look it up.

    #222014

    Lily

    See, it never completed the loop for me. It stopped being funny and went straight to irritating.

    On rewatching it now gets a titter as I know what’s coming, but I really didn’t understand the love for it at the time.

    #222026

    quinn_drummer

    What bothers me about that joke is that they have clearly taken bits from different takes and stitched them together to make one long gag.

    Next time you watch it look at Cat’s hand movements. He does the same thing from 3 different angles that looks like it’s taken from the last “margh” of each take, a kind of fed up this is so simple why is it taken Kryten so long to get it gesture.

    #222027

    SarahWho

    Dave Wallace: Nah, not really, it’s only a couple of moments in scenes. The episode is easily my second fav of the series, though. Samsara being number one of course ;-)

    #222030

    SarahWho

    BDTS: kinda wanna join in on this re-watch if it’s okay with u? I just started on XI again tonight. I don’t wanna highjack your thread tho? x

    #222035

    Ben Saunders

    Yeah for me it never became funny again, but I laughed at first.

    Speaking of edits, I noticed a lot of odd continuity/edits in Justice when I watched it today. Sometimes I’ll notice the odd one in an episode, but there were a good few in Justice, they must have done several takes then.

    #222036

    Dax101

    I don’t mind the joke but I do agree it goes in abit long.

    It seems like Doug likes to push a joke to see how long the audience will laugh at it.

    #222037

    Ben Saunders

    I mean if the audience are laughing at it, at least some people at home must be too. And iirc other people thought it was a highlight of the episode, so it’s whatever.

    I wonder if every single maargh was scripted, like how the cast claim the GELFspeak in VI was to be followed verbatim, or if the cast milked it a little.

    #222047

    Better Dead Than Smeg

    Sure, Sarah, go for it.
    Some great photos in your portfolio by the way. Do you still model?

    #222052

    SarahWho

    Thanx! I’m rewatching the first half of 11 today, so will post later on tonight maybe.

    #222053

    SarahWho

    Oh, yeah, still modelling. Glad you liked them ;-)

    #222079

    Better Dead Than Smeg

    It’s okay — I have no idea what they’re talking about either.
    You’re a writer? In that case, ‘step into my office’. Are you published?

    #222081

    Jonathan Capps

    G&T Admin

    oh god please stop

    #222083

    Better Dead Than Smeg

    Posted the above in the wrong thread (this thread).

    #222093

    Pete Part Three

    They’re all the wrong thread.

    #222094

    Better Dead Than Smeg

    In many this place is like dinner time at the special school.

    #222096

    SarahWho

    In many? lol.

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