Should they have continued Red Dwarf after Series VI?

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  • #216661

    Jawscvmcdia

    I refer to a comment on Den of Geek, which was:

    “Once a story’s been done, characters are explored, there’s no point in continuing something just because you liked what came before.

    Red Dwarf wrapped up in season six really – the departure of Rob Grant and the lack of enthusiasm of Chris Barrie after that should have meant they left it alone. I understand the draw for continuing – it’s similar to our draw towards re-watching it, but it should have been resisted.

    Sometimes it’s just better to leave things well alone and keep them as happy memories. This show should have been quietly taken out to the woods and shot in the head years ago. Since Rob Grant’s departure, laughs have been very rare. It’s obvious from their two separate novels, Last Human and Backwards that Rob Grant was the creative force behind the show.”

    Thoughts?

    #216662

    Darrell

    That makes no sense about the books, it’s such an empty cliche that always gets trodden out. “Obvious”? I love both books fairly equally but there is demonstrably more ‘creative force’ in Last Human, regardless of what you think about each novel or what your favourite is. It’s spitting with fresh ideas amongst the recycled bits, even despite the odd stumble in executing them, whereas Backwards is slickly executed but only really has the Agonoids section that isn’t adapted from existing material (and even then they’re amalgam of the Simulants and the Lows).

    Over 20 years since VII was shot and still this bloody argument…

    #216664

    Dax101

    Thats a tricky one as did Series 7 and 8 live up to the past 6 seasons to the point it makes them worth existing, i dunno how to answer that one, they are bumps in the road of the franchise and BTE wasn’t all that amazing either.

    But we as fans always want more no matter either way.

    #216665

    NoFro

    I think Red Dwarf is a show that works so well in continuing on, even if the execution hasn’t always been as good as in those first six series*. If they brought Men Behaving Badly back now and Gary and Tony were still doing the same thing it would likely be depressing. Alternatively they might have had kids or something and, whilst such a change to the status quo could be pulled off, many shows have had such a change ruin the whole thing. With Red Dwarf you can return 20 years later and still have the exact same set up. It’s in a bubble, it’s world doesn’t change with ours and there’s no outside force that should be massively changing our characters over the years. That makes it quite unique for a sitcom and is probably part of the reason it feels so natural for it to come back.

    *For me VII is okay, VIII is atrocious, BTE is good, X is okay though with different pros and cons to VII, XI is very good so far. For reference, the first six would be described as amazing.

    #216674

    Ian Symes

    G&T Admin

    Christ almighty. We’re in the middle of a new series. Do we need three separate discussions about the merits of Series VII and VIII right now?

    #216690

    Darrell

    It’s the rule of VII.

    #216691

    International Debris

    Yes. Yes we fucking do.

    #216692

    Pete Tranter’s Sister

    Yes.

    #216693

    Ridley

    Link to the Den of Geek comment, plz.

    #216694

    Jawscvmcdia
    #216696

    KyoSo

    Backwards better than Last Human?

    Nah.

    No.

    No, no, nope. Last Human was a much better novel. I enjoyed Backwards, but I didn’t get invested in its story the way I did with Last Human. Plus, it also provided the closest thing we’ll ever get to a true ending to Red Dwarf. The stuff with Rimmer’s damaged light bee felt like a great send off to his character.

    #216697

    si

    Currently rereading Last Human, not my favourite of the four. Can’t quite work Kochanski in my head. The characterisation is obviously a step away from Claire Grogan’s Kochanski, and towards the way she’s portrayed in RDVII, but when reading it before then, before Chloe was even cast…and found it awkward. I think Backwards is a better novel, really; the adaptation of onscreen scenes and dialogue is much more noticeable in Last Human, Backwards is more about the idea. My main problem with Backwards, though, is the amount of time Lister and Cat spend as kids. Similar to Kochanski in Last Human in that it’s a little more difficult to visualise. But to be honest, neither reach the level of Infinity or BTL.
    I’d be interested to see what a new book might throw up, though. Maybe Robert could have a go.

    #216698

    MANI506

    I think Backwards is better purely for the Ace Rimmer stuff but both novels are best in their abridged audiobook form I think. That said, unabridged new Chris Barrie recordings are still top of my Christmas list. Come on boffins – sort it out!

    #216699

    ChrisM

    I can understand people preferring Backwards to Last Human (I’m not one of them, although I liked both books) but it seems that post writer is equating preference with creativity, which is smegging annoying and just not true.

    I find Last Human a much more creative novel. And I’m not just saying that because I prefer it. There is just so much more going on. Cyberia. Whole new gelf cultures. Parallels self shenanigans. Plotting and action and… it dares to be sad and poignant too. (Although there’s a bit of that in Backwards as well.)

    I don’t say that to criticise Backwards though. It was a tighter novel and its realisation of a Backwards reality was far better than the episode of the same name. It was a good novel with a lot of merit, but I thought Last Human beat it where creativity is concerned.

    #216700

    Ridley

    >http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/red-dwarf-the-movie/37144/red-dwarf-and-the-movie-that-never-was

    Grazie. Why did you combine three separate people’s opinions into one though?

    Matthew Hewitt [to] George • a year ago

    Seasons 2 & 3 were the absolute peak for me, after that it was a long, slow decline. Season 7 was awful, season 8 only slightly better and the Dave episodes are plain embarrassing. Sometimes it’s just better to leave things well alone and keep them as happy memories. The only idea of interest to me would be to re-cast and turn the first couple of books into feature films.

    George [to] Matthew Hewitt • a year ago

    Yeah, for me it’s 2-3-4 with 5 and 6 being much patchier (probably because Ed Bye was no longer producing).

    I think that once a story’s been done, characters are explored, there’s no point in continuing something just because you liked what came before.

    Red Dwarf wrapped up in season six really – the departure of Rob Grant and the lack of enthusiasm of Chris Barrie after that should have meant they left it alone. I understand the draw for continuing – it’s similar to our draw towards re-watching it, but it should have been resisted.

    I like your idea of a recast and turning the book into features. The idea is sound, and “that sort of thing” is easier to do now than it ever was (in terms of an appetite for science fiction, more unusual comedy, etc). Just: no cameos, please.

    Neal Murdoch • a year ago

    This show should have been quietly taken out to the woods and shot in the head years ago. Since Rob Grants departure, laughs have been very rare. It’s obvious from their 2 separate RD novels, Last Human and Backwards that Rob Grant was the creative force behind the show.

    #216706

    International Debris

    I’ve never been that fond of Last Human. It just feels a bit too populated. Backwards manages to have half the book set on 20th century Earth and still focuses largely on the main four, whereas Last Human has such a large cast despite being set in deep space. Is the title a joke, by the way? Given that it features Kochanski, alternate Lister and Rimmer’s son as important characters. It’s a pretty good SF novel, but I just find Backwards funnier and just overall more Dwarfy.

    #216707

    Pete Tranter’s Sister

    Better Than Life and Backwards are just fucking lovely.

    If Doug decided to write an episode based purely on Ace circa the test flight, I would be so happy, he’s a diamond in it.

    #216710

    Kris Carter

    Yes, they absolutely should have continued Red Dwarf after VI, and I’m glad they did.

    Although, yes, it has taken a very long time to recapture itself after all the upheaval that was wrought between VI and VII, but we’re now into the strongest run of episodes for a long time, and I’m glad we’ve got them and more to come.

    #216711

    Pete Part Three

    I find the prose in Backwards more similar to Infinity and BTL.

    The tone of Last Human just feels all wrong too. And Kochanski is even worse than she is in VII (though not quite VIII levels of rubbishness.

    #216712

    Dax101

    Infinity welcomes careful drivers is a great novel, better than life has a slight tone change towards more complex sci-fi but it is still pretty damn good, last human and backwards both are decent but both feel like there is something missing

    #216713

    Dax101

    It does feel like a star trek or star wars novel in some ways where gelfs, robots and holograms stand in for aliens and Doug fully takes advantage of as many other characters he can fit in as possible.

    #216714

    Dax101

    Oops i tried to quote someones elses post and somehow my own post ended up quoted and edit doesn’t work, ah well you get the point ;p

    #216719

    Taiwan Tony

    Yes I believe they should. Because you can ignore series VII & VIII and BTE and great swathes of X and an episode of XI, and enjoy the good ones.
    And who wouldn’t love another book or two.

    #216722

    Pete Tranter’s Sister

    I’ll be as honest as ‘Honest’ Bill Honesty here, the most honest man south of Honest-upon-Upton.

    I really cannot stomach Series I. I tend to start at Kryten, race through to Blue, then do ten minutes of Nanarchy and end up at Series X.

    I really do like Series I but it’s never been a must-watch for me unlike Kryten or Out of Time or Dimension Jump.

    #216733

    International Debris

    After watching the lot of them umpteen times, I find the first series the one I’m less inclined to come back to*, just through it generally being less textured (both visually and in terms of of script and characterisation). Humour-wise it’s fucking excellent, but it’s only at Me² that the rewatchability level really steps up.

    *other than VII and VIII, of course. I’ve only watched those two once in the last, seven or eight years.

    #216737

    Nick R

    Christ almighty. We’re in the middle of a new series. Do we need three separate discussions about the merits of Series VII and VIII right now?

    It seems that with a lot of fandom discussions, the stuff they hate the most seem to get returned to more often than the stuff they should celebrate.

    Case in point: there’s a brand new RedLetterMedia Harry Plinkett video on The Force Awakens. But it ends up spending nearly 50% of its time reiterating or continuing arguments related to the problems with the Star Wars prequels, which by this point must surely be the most-discussed films on the Internet. (It also happens to be a relatively poorly-argued critique compared to those earlier videos.)

    Fandoms love to hate…

    #216744

    Pete Tranter’s Sister

    Oh go on then, I love Series VIII.

    Anyone wanna match me?

    Come on, who put Pete at No. 1 in the Silver Survey?

    #216751

    cwickham

    As another thought: what would have happened to the franchise if Doug hadn’t decided to carry on after Series VI? Would the revival have happened? Would the DVDs be anywhere near as good as they are? How different would this site, and indeed Red Dwarf fandom in general, be? How would the show be thought of now?

    #216753

    Pete Tranter’s Sister

    Good point really, the wind may have went out Doug’s sails if both Rob and himself decided to call it a day after Series VI.

    We’d have vanilla DVD releases with virtually no special features and a foolhardy, limited scrap of fan websites reporting on the most bollocky associative minutae regarding the cast of the show in their post-Dwarf careers.

    Wait a minute…

    #216761

    Darrell

    Whatever you think of the post-split series (and please to god let’s keep it to ourselves now), if it hadn’t have been for the two-year run of VII/Xtended/Night/Remastered/VIII then Red Dwarf would have basically disappeared. Doug, Ed Bye and the GNP team worked themselves into dust to turn Red Dwarf from a parochial, already-seen-as-past-it, zeitgeisty (and to some extent borderline *disgraced*) cult TV property into a resurrected, reborn, international legacy brand with massively improved sales potential and audience reach.

    What they achieved, with infinitely less resources than they made it appear, wasn’t far off the impossible. How can you not have wanted all that to happen? It’s the reason you can enjoy “IT’S A COMEDY SPRAY” and 16mm footage of Pete Tyler’s hands in the comfort of your own living room, and the reason Sunday afternoon repeats of Queeg can still appear on BARB ratings charts.

    #216765

    Pete Tranter’s Sister

    It wouldn’t have worked regardless, Dona was too petite for the shot and her hands are not of the same hue as Danny’s.

    How distinctly unique and odd it is to discuss rushes from an episode of a cult sci-fi show made 28 years ago in a Manchester hotel.

    #216801

    Dax101

    Really i think the movie was a driving force for Doug to continue making this show, infact Series 7 and 8 both feel like testers for a movie with series 7 not being filmed infront of an audience and having orchestric music, while 8 brought the crew back which the movie was gonna be a reboot and was likly to have Hollister and Co in and Doug attempted a 3 part story for the first 3 episode which was film length

    If Red Dwarf had stopped after 6 it probably would have came back in some form or another, whether rob would have been more likely to come back or not who knows

    As for keeping the show alive with Series 7,8 and the remastered… thats a tricky one, yay to keeping the show alive but they still sorta feel like bumps in the road.

    #216807

    Ben Paddon

    Really i think the movie was a driving force for Doug to continue making this show, infact Series 7 and 8 both feel like testers for a movie with series 7 not being filmed infront of an audience and having orchestric music, while 8 brought the crew back which the movie was gonna be a reboot and was likly to have Hollister and Co in and Doug attempted a 3 part story for the first 3 episode which was film length

    You’re half-right, at least according to the Series VIII book – Doug planned VII as a test run for the movie (which is what convinced Ed Bye to come back).

    #216830

    cwickham

    Here’s another suggestion: in a parallel universe where Red Dwarf’s original run ended with VI and Back to Earth didn’t happen, would the Beeb have considered making a new episode for their recent Sitcom Season? Would Rob and Doug have been up for a reunion for it? (Alternatively: a universe with the same scenario, except VII and VIII did happen?)

    #216831

    Pete Tranter’s Sister

    I can’t see how it could’ve ended after VI with a neat or positive ending. There were books, out-take tapes, merchandise, conventions, all sorts that would that in a way, wouldn’t have allowed for Red Dwarf to simply snuff out for a number of years post-1993 bar Doug running in and doing a KLF, namely deleting the back catalogue and telling everyone to sod off.

    Would be interesting though, I wonder what fandom would be like now if we had just six series and the odd bit of archive material along the way.

    #216834

    Stephen Abootman

    In that universe, doing a version of Bodysnatcher as a one off would surely have been the ideal choice.

    #216838

    destere

    I get so tired of this line of view. I will flame people, but it’s through honest opinion backed up with logic.

    Very simply: The series post VI are not the dismal ‘mistakes’ that they are made out to be. (Apart from BTE which was a step too far – IMO)

    The vast majority of RD’s audience do not care or feel so deeply about this issue, and can enjoy the programmes perfectly well. They are funny. They are different, and maybe not quite as consistent, however anyone that says there ‘isn’t a single laugh’ (or along those lines) is a liar who simply needs to get off their heigh horse and find out what a life is.

    The vast majority will not be 1% as vocal as those that take this ‘issue’ to heart.

    If you don’t like it, don’t watch it. The rest of us will be perfectly happy watching the rest of XI, XII and beyond.

    #216840

    Pete Part Three

    >Very simply: The series post VI are not the dismal ‘mistakes’ that they are made out to be. (Apart from BTE which was a step too far – IMO)

    So, we’re allowed to say BTE is a dismal “mistake” but not anything else? Just as long as we know how to adhere to the “correct” opinion.

    #216841

    destere

    You can call it what you want. Possibly not my best wording admittedly. But all I’m saying is that many more people enjoy the newer series, which isn’t necessarily reflected on sites like this.

    I never said people can’t have opinions, and I never said it shouldn’t have been made. I may not like BTE so much, but someone out there will like BTE very much. Furthermore it was a restricted production in so many ways, but it paved the way for X and so on. So it was very much worth making for that reason alone.

    Adhering to the ‘correct’ opinions is what these questions always suggest. To the point where people don’t want others to enjoy the newer stuff because it so badly regarded (apparently/allegedly/so I say). That’s what annoys me. Live and let live. We’ve heard it all before. Just don’t watch it – don’t wish to deny the majority the joy of more Dwarf.

    #216847

    si

    You’re all wrong.

    And so are your mums.

    #216853

    Pete Part Three

    > I may not like BTE so much, but someone out there will like BTE very much.

    People are entitled to agree with that, but I don’t see how that’s any different to what people are doing here. Your negative opinion on BTE doesn’t change my opinion on BTE one iota; just as negative opinions on VII, VIII and X really shouldn’t bother you.

    Opinions work both ways, irrespective of whether they’re positive or negative. And if you visit a fan-site, you’re going to see extremes of both which may not align with “the vast majority of RD’s audience”.

    I think this thread is odd, sure. Alex S has edited together three comments made a year ago on a different site, and it does seem to be a stirring the pot. However, it’s all been fairly tame and based on conjecture and hypothetical situations. Right up until someone expressed boredom with an opinion and threatened a bout of flaming.

    >Live and let live.

    Exactly.

    #216856

    Taiwan Tony

    >Just don’t watch it – don’t wish to deny the majority the joy of more Dwarf.

    Just don’t read this thread?

    #216858

    Chris Stokes

    I definitely think I-VI are more consistent but I just can’t agree with the hardline view that ANYTHING post VI isn’t as good.

    We have a habit of viewing Dwarf in the past tense, even when it’s on telly, and as such hold the original 36 up to standards *some* of them don’t deserve.

    This isn’t to say that some of the criticisms of Vii onwards aren’t without merit, but I’d argue that many of those criticisms can be levelled at a chunk of the original run as well, we just tend not to because of rose tinted specs.

    Obviously there was a hey day, obviously it was prior to 1997 and we are unlikely to recapture it but I definitely think VII, Bye, X and XI are criticised under more scrutiny.

    VIII too, I just happen to agree with the consensus on that one. I remember being the only one of my friends having misgivings at the time.

    #216863

    destere

    >Just don’t read this thread?

    A tad silly. Just don’t read MY comments? Just don’t go near a computer? Sit in a corner of a dark room, close your eyes and put your hands over your ears? Where does this end?

    Chris makes a good point: It’s the hard line views that just don’t make sense. That’s what I’m getting at. It’s this line in the OP that invoked me: ‘Since Rob Grant’s departure, laughs have been very rare.’ Objectively, that isn’t true on any level.

    #216865

    Pete Part Three

    >It’s this line in the OP that invoked me: ‘Since Rob Grant’s departure, laughs have been very rare.’ Objectively, that isn’t true on any level.

    Maybe flame the person who made it then? On a different site. A year ago.

    #216867

    Taiwan Tony

    >>Just don’t read this thread?
    A tad silly. Just don’t read MY comments? Just don’t go near a computer? Sit in a corner of a dark room, close your eyes and put your hands over your ears? Where does this end?

    Exactly. And that was YOUR argument, you daft cunt. “If you don’t like it, don’t [read] it.”

    #216870

    Pete Tranter’s Sister

    #216879

    International Debris

    Good thread this.

    #216880

    destere

    Haha. I have a feeling that much of the response is down to the fact that I don’t conform to the usual I-VI is holy club. Fair enough. I should have expected that.

    > Maybe flame the person who made it then? On a different site. A year ago.

    Unfair comment. The thread starter did ask for ‘thoughts’.

    >Exactly. And that was YOUR argument, you daft cunt. “If you don’t like it, don’t [read] it.”

    Doesn’t mean that I can’t air my opinion. The thread was started with an opinion, and I responded to it. Nothing wrong here. All I’m saying is that this argument has been done to death, and that there are plenty of people that enjoy the post VI series. You’re not making any real point. You’re just being rude for the sake of it.

    #216882

    Taiwan Tony

    Dude. As an opinion, it’s fair enough. Don’t watch what you don’t like.
    In turn I suggested that you don’t read things you don’t like. As a kind of “joke”. However, you failed to see the irony (as only a fan of series VIII would do), and took it at total face value. You called it a silly argument. I agree. It is a silly argument. Ahhhhhhhhh.

    By the way this has nothing to do with your not conforming to the views of the ‘holy club’, as you put it. You just seem like a bit of a git.
    Who says they “flame” people?!
    Peace and love. TT.

    #216883

    jamstead

    Thought I’d just jump in here, especially after our ‘flamer’. Partly because I kind of agree with him… His argument isn’t all that eloquently put, but he makes a point.

    Personally I can’t get into Series I at all. It really feels like a practice run for series II, which apart from the last episode was all superb to me. In contrast, I enjoy VIII. It’s a laugh if you don’t analyse it too closely in comparison to the rest of the series. 8 million viewers can’t be all wrong – especially in the wake of a slightly shaky Series VII.

    The series has had dips here and there, but I don’t feel that they have been so detrimental to the series that I would say that they shouldn’t have happened. If Back to Earth was the new standard for new series X onwards, then I feel it would have crossed the line. Thankfully it was a one-off, and served as a catalyst for something markedly better.

    #216885

    si

    Red Dwarf is all shit, anyway. I prefer Hyperdrive.

    #216886

    Pete Tranter’s Sister

    It’s all went a bit ShaneG in here.

    #216887

    Pete Part Three

    >I have a feeling that much of the response is down to the fact that I don’t conform to the usual I-VI is holy club.

    Ah, gotcha. VII, VIII and X are fine, because Red Dwarf I-VI was just “fine” too? OK. Wait for the huge swathes of people to criticise you for not holding I-VI to lofty standards.

    Or not. Because no one actually cares. No one is going to bother trying to convince you your opinion is wrong or express exasperation that you’ve decided to air it. They’ll only kick-off if you wade in and get personal.

    >Unfair comment. The thread starter did ask for ‘thoughts’.
    Sure, but this isn’t Disqus with threaded comments. if you’re replying specifically to a quote (from someone on Den of Geek, a year ago) in the original post, it’s probably a good idea to quote it. Your first reply was about 40 posts in, and it just appeared you were dismissing everyone who’s contributed to this thread. If I’ve got that wrong, I apologise. If I got that right, huh.

    As I’ve said, the thread title and first post are antagonistic, but the comments it spawned were interesting. And now it’s been somewhat derailed by talk of “liars”, “high-horses” and “flaming”.

    >Objectively, that isn’t true on any level.
    Objectively, it’s not objective at all. It’s subjective.

    #216889

    Jimboid

    OK?

    OK.

    OK. We’re going to get through this.

    #216899

    Darrell

    No, everybody keep going nuts, it makes me look relatively more reasonable when I go on about shortened DVD extras.

    #216900

    Pete Tranter’s Sister

    Since it’s you.

    FUCK THE LOT OF YOU, FUCKING IMBECILES, YOU DON’T KNOW REAL RED DWARF.

    Listen, I’ve been watching Red Dwarf since 1981, I’m true Dwarf, I was in the audience on the first night and I actually helped rope in drunkards from the pub across from BBC Manchester.

    Ok, I live, breathe, and meme Red Dwarf, just don’t go there ok? I’m at every Dimension Jump, every recording, I’ve slept with three of the cast and I’m half-feline sapian.

    #216970

    Magic Me

    McDonald’s should have called it quits after selling their millionth hamburger.

    John should have quit making burgers after he earnt his second star.

    Making Dwarf is Doug’s (and the cast, crew etc) job, his livelihood and a damn fine hobby all in one. Why should he call it quits and do something else less successful, less fun and that earns less just because some people on the Internet who are under no obligation to watch it say so? Should Maroon 5 have calls if quits after their second album? Perhaps they could have gone and got shitty jobs rather than taking in another few million quid performing music, and that would have opened a space for another crappy band to take their place that you’re also not obliged to listen to so I don’t see how it makes any odds to anyone if people who make money creatively continue to make money creatively.

    #216972

    Darrell

    They should never have done Maroon 7 & 8.

    #216973

    Pete Tranter’s Sister

    This is why I think Series VII needs another go for the 20th anniversary.

    New CGI shots which will look great with todays technology, re-edit from the 50i tapes rather than process down to 25p, edit and tweak with hindsight as a guide and present it as the 20th Anniversary Editions, not as the replacements.

    It’s a lovely little series with a real heart and it deserves to go out best foot forward.

    #216974

    Darrell

    The only thing wrong with VII is the fact it’s performed to an imaginary audience rather than more naturally, particularly as that audience are largely fake in the final dub. Would gave been better to keep it dry and give the performances a bit more pace. (And keep a bit more Howard Goodall in the edit too.)

    Other than that I’ve always loved it, it’s one of my favourite series of the show and I like every episode. The stories are great, there’s tons of variety and texture and colour, the co-writers all work, it looks beautiful, and it’s got loads of brilliant set pieces. I also think some of the less successful parts of VIII would have come out better made the same way, the weirdness of say Only The Good or the second half of BITR would have been allowed to breathe more and there’d have been a lot more charm and coherence to the piece. You’d lose plenty as well but it’d probably change a lot of people’s opinions of VIII if they were to see it made the summer 1996 way.

    I actually like nearly all of Red Dwarf though. I’m fairly egalitarian about the show and the few bits I don’t like are scattered evenly across the show’s history. There aren’t even any episodes I think are unilaterally bad, even my least favourites have a good first half or a killer five minutes in there.

    (See, I’m nice sometimes.)

    #219993

    Manbird

    Personally speaking, and I’m speaking personally here, I like that there’s a very clear cut-off point between the BBC and Dave eras. Back to Earth reset the show’s continuity, and although the show still occasionally harks back to past glories (Fathers and Suns, Can of Worms, etc) the later episodes themselves largely stand on their own.

    I know quite a few people who’ve gotten into the show via X and XI, and they don’t give a shit about supposed tonal and stylistic inconsistencies in the way you and I do. For them, looking back on older episodes isn’t visiting a by-gone age so much as seeing new material. They don’t have the dangerously proprietorial attitude we long-term fans have.

    Let’s rephrase the title of this thread: would we rather the programme ended after VI just to please a lot of hard-core, joyless fans, or are we better off welcoming new audiences to one of the smartest, most imaginative shows ever to grace British television?

    #219994

    Ridley

    Why did you combine three separate people’s opinions into one though?

    #219997

    Phobos And Deimos

    One of the issues about ending the show after Series VI is that there would be a lot of people sitting 24 years later saying… my word, what would a potential Series VII been like? And we’d have elevated the unknowns and little morsels of information to come out over the years into near-mythical status. We might’ve heard about plot points regarding time travel, the return of Kochanski, catching up with Red Dwarf, intelligent viruses and drove ourselves mental. Doug might’ve even created a few scripts and put them out in a 15th or 20th anniversary book celebrating the show.

    A new audience for the show and new episodes are a good thing and it’s a rarity, if not a singular achievement that a BBC 2 sit-com has persisted and continues to be made to this day after thirty years, but if the writing isn’t up to scratch, then forget about it.

    There’s reasons why the first six series worked.

    And there’s reasons why it began to falter afterwards.

    There’s always reasons, or a reason.

    #219998

    Dax101

    Had the show ended around Series 6 it probably wouldn’t have the status it has today since Red Dwarf continued to grow bigger even through the late 90s.

    Personally i am abit mixed on it since in a way i am glad the show didn’t end at series 6 but at the same time when i look at Back to Earth for example i just think… this isn’t exactly a example of why continuing after 6 was a good thing.

    Its a shame that continuing after 6 has left the show with abit of a mixed track record in terms of quality.

    #220003

    Phobos And Deimos

    The Next Generation Season 6 – A shining light in the Star Trek canon.

    The Next Generation Season 7 – A load of fucking wank bar ‘All Good Things’.

    #220010

    Paul Muller

    My memories of Series VII are undoubtedly coloured by the fact that I was an excitable 10 year old when it first aired, and aside from a couple of times my parents let me stay up late to watch it, VII was my first proper exposure to Red Dwarf.

    At the time, I was totally in love with it. Explosions, spaceships, robots and loads of jokes that flew completely over my tiny head. Recently I was clearing out a load of old stuff at my Mum’s house and found a sketchbook of drawings of Starbug, Gelf cruisers, various attempts at Kryten’s head and some extremely unfunny fan fiction.

    The next few years were an exploration of the previous series, in completely the wrong order. I think I probably watched Series VI first, then III, then I. Eventually I got round to the other series, just in time to be hugely disappointed by Series VIII (even as a 12 year old I found it pretty cringeworthy).

    The point I’m making is that our memories of Red Dwarf are often tied into our experiences watching it the first time round.

    I have happy memories of VII, therefore I’m tempted to look at it through rose-tinted lenses. As my first exposure to the series, it formed my first ideas about what Red Dwarf should be; an exciting, funny, ambitious ensemble show with a different weekly premise and the occasional dramatic and affecting moment.

    With that in mind I was never going to feel much affection towards Series VIII.

    I’m still glad it was made though. Doug’s willingness to change and adapt the style and content of Red Dwarf over the years has probably contributed to its longevity. You can never be quite sure what you’re going to get next…

    #220011

    Phobos And Deimos

    Iain Lee put it best…

    “Oh, don’t talk to me about Red Dwarf, I’m not going to listen, it’s rubbish. It’s just ‘smeg, smeg, smeg, smeg, smeg, oh look a cat, smeg, smeg, smeg’. It’s not sci-fi, it’s not comedy, it’s RUBBISH”.

    Buncha bollocks that Red Dwarf, I just bought the complete series of ‘End of Part One’ on DVD from Network. Now there’s a fucking lost gem of a comedy.

    #220014

    KyoSo

    Oh wow, Iain Lee IS a cunt. See I never quite knew who he was, just that everyone here said he was a cunt. Seems that’s a very apt description.

    #220020

    Ridley

    Ian other news: The Award Winnianing Ian Ian Symes patched thiangs up with Iain Lee on behalf of Ganianmede & Titian years ago followianing his, Iain not Ian, Googlianing of himself.

    We hate Caitlin Moran and Mark Kermode now.

    #220022

    clem

    Why do we hate Mark Kermode?

    #220023

    Ridley
    #220025

    Phobos And Deimos

    Oh, look, a cinema loving Stewart Lee’s let himself go.

    #220043

    KyoSo

    I feel like a lot of people who hate the new episodes with a passion would find many issues with the classic episodes they hold in highest regard if they could rewatch them brand new today. They saw those original episodes when they were young and completely uncritical, but watch these new ones for the first time much older, with profoundly high expectations and more refined tastes.

    I just have to question when I see people who consider Series VIII to be on par with Series III-V, but complain that Series XI “doesn’t feel like Red Dwarf”. If Series VIII feels like classic Red Dwarf to you, then how could you consider something much closer in every respect to not? Or maybe you’d have exactly the same complaint about Series VIII if you hadn’t first seen it in 1999 as a teenager.

    Really I’m just annoyed at the kinds of fans you see in social media groups. They’re either the type who claim their favorite episode is “all of them” or the type who unironically bitch that the new episodes are terrible because they don’t look 30 years old. I wish there was one filled with non-stupid people, but I gave up that search a while ago.

    #220044

    Dollar Pound

    i thought this recently when i watched polymorph and the fact they leave lister behind and come back makes no more sense than anything in can of worms. i never noticed this before, i was just going thru the motions. it didn’t ruin it for me tho and i defended cow.

    i thought *this* was the place to talk smeg with non-stupid people!

    #220047

    KyoSo

    It is, but I’d enjoy a social media group where we could goof around and share images and the like. Unfortunately all Red Dwarf social media groups are just eight hundred people sharing the SMEG toaster per day and unironically espousing the opinion that you can’t be a true fan if you criticize the show in any way.

    #220051

    Phil

    You know, you can always *start* that social media group.

    #220055

    flanl3

    Or, even better, and this is just a thought, start the Facebook page “the same photo of the SMEG toaster every day”. There’s loads of pages of the like. Not a particularly hard format to keep up with.

    #220057

    flanl3

    Advertise it in all those groups. You’ll get thousands of likes instantly.

    #220059

    Ridley

    They like it when you say smeg.

    #220060

    flanl3

    Honestly, though? I’m concerned by what smeg toast would be.

    #220115

    Plastic Percy

    I’m glad it didn’t, as it would have been disappointing to end on such a down ending and cliffhanger. Much as I’m glad they didn’t end VIII with the awful idea for ‘Earth’ – Red Dwarf, powered by anti-matter from a parallel dimension, makes it back to Earth and crashes into it, sliding across the world and wiping out civilisations and famous landmarks, with the last scene being Lister climbing out of the wreckage to exchange insurance details with one of the survivors.

    #220116

    Phobos And Deimos

    At least with that ending there’s the possibility of wrapping up Series VIII as one of Lister’s mental curry-induced dreams.

    I’ve always maintained that Series VIII is non-canon and is no more than a sideways ‘Carry On’ style look at Red Dwarf and that’s about as complimentary as I can be. For me, the nanites rebuild the ship, there’s a bit of fit and finish to be had in terms of the ship shrinking but it settles down, they escape Starbug and we cut to ten years later with Lister walking down a service corridor with a bag of tomatoes. No resurrected crew, no prisoners, no fucking nonsense.

    I admit, I get a chuckle from Krytie TV but come on, there’s limits.

    #220117

    Ian Symes

    G&T Admin

    I might have been able to subscribe to this view were it not for a couple of moments in The Beginning…

    #220118

    SoundableObject

    I only consider the Series VIII PBS idents to be canon.

    #220119

    International Debris

    Yes, those two jokes in The Beginning make it very difficult for me to accept my head-canon that would otherwise allow me to skip from VII to BtE.

    #220120

    Phobos And Deimos

    Those jokes are related to events now off-screen and unseen and that’s why the context of them has changed because we’re told of Rimmer being the hero and yet he isn’t given a platform to brag about it. He’s cut off by more pressing matters such as actually being the hero onscreen in ‘The Beginning’.

    See? There you go, fixed! Now go into the night and write a comprehensive fan-fiction about the twelve year gap between Series VII and Back To Earth.

    Issues to be resolved…

    Why is Rimmer back? Could he not hack it as Ace or is this a new Rimmer generated by Lister to keep himself sane?
    Why did Kochanski hop it? She seemed settled in by the end of Series VII.
    Where did ol’ half-eaten lollipop head go for his first holiday in the ship?
    Why didn’t the nanites resurrect the crew and long-rumoured prison population while they were at it? That would’ve made for the best series of Red Dwarf yet.

    Good call on the PBS idents, they are funny. I remember someone posting a BBC-era Red Dwarf IX trailer years ago using the ident footage, pre-Dave revival and it was heartbreaking to watch as it seemed like another series of Red Dwarf was very unlikely at that point.

    #220121

    Plastic Percy

    It’s interesting to speculate on the origin of this current Rimmer. Personally, I like to imagine he’s the original Rimmer returned from adventuring as Ace Rimmer – breaking the cycle by retiring whilst he still had a chance to get out ‘alive’ and not killed in a heroically silly manner as his predecessors. If that’s the case, perhaps he did return as Ace to save Red Dwarf and sent the Rimmer clone off as his replacement (or, more hilariously as I read in one fanfic, sent Kill Crazy off as the new Ace).

    Of course, if he’s had a couple of years of adventures as Ace Rimmer, it would be a little odd that he’s still hung up about his lack of a sex life and his failure to be an officer (and also ignores how he was posthumously promoted to First Officer).

    #220123

    SoundableObject

    He was the one Rimmer in an infinite number of universes who couldn’t cut it as Ace Rimmer and couldn’t shake his neuroses and hangups.

    I also consider the Drunk feature from the DVD to be canon. And the weblink. And the comic relief thing filmed on the DNA set. Nothing else though.

    #220124

    International Debris

    Phobos and Deimos, stop calling the nanobots nanites in a tedious discussion about continuity.

    #220127

    flanl3

    We should make a comprehensive list of shows with nanobots, nanites, or both.

    But knowing this site, we’d only come up with a list of the ones with neither.

    #220129

    performingmonkey

    I see Dwarf as split 5 ways, and in theory you could like only one of these, and/or treat each of them as separate canon.

    1 & 2 – it’s own thing

    III to VI & X to XII – the heyday and ‘proper’ Red Dwarf

    The novels – totally their own thing

    VII – a neat comedy adventure series with slightly dodgy execution

    VIII – the ‘I took Prozac for a laugh’ year

    BtE – okay

    #220130

    performingmonkey

    Okay it’s split 6 ways, but seeing as I can’t edit I’m gonna chew on a tulip instead.

    N.B. there’s some mad fuckers in the Dwarf community, right?

    #220131

    Phobos And Deimos

    It’s my Trek background, y’see. Nanites, nanobots, nanos, they’re all nano-bastards in the end. I’m pretty sure there’s no nanotechnology in the third episode of series one of ‘Agony’, a sitcom starring Maureen Lipman.

    There’s no easy way to reconcile the return of Rimmer and we should vote to just treat the entire show and the majority of the cast and crew as non-canon. Saves a lot of headaches and repeat broadcast payments.

    Series I & II – Feels like theatre productions directed towards the audience because they mostly hang around the bunk and there’s a lot of back and forth. That’s not me dismissing the humour though, they’re mighty fine episodes and I like the slow build of them. You could imagine a third series of Red Dwarf along the same lines of the first two but I don’t think you could’ve got away with a fourth as Series II has moments in it that are clear nods towards what the cast and crew wanted to in the future such as ‘Better Than Life’.

    Series III to V – The Boys from the Dwarf. We’re taken on merry adventures, both on the ship and beyond and we can really see how Rob and Doug wanted to branch out and not only use locations and more expressive studio sets, but push the concepts that will drive the episodes.

    Series VI – It can easily be grouped with III to V but it does have a distinct feel. We’re off the ship, there’s an immediacy and cosiness to the sets and it feels like a weekly serial. Plus it has ‘Out Of Time’, my favourite episode.

    Series VII – I like Series VII, I really do. It has some duff moments but it has a heart to it and in terms of design, scope, the shift from comedy with some drama to comedy-drama, it holds up. If you take off the film filter and tighten some of the editing and remove some of the right dodgy moments, I’ve always maintained that Series VII is a good candidate for the title of Series VI – Part II.

    Hell, I’ll say it right now, take out Emohawk in Series VI, push it as the first episode of Series VII and put Tikka to Ride into Series VI and rename it Out of Time – Part II and have Series VI end with a bumper double episode, cliffhanger intact and everything. It bloody works.

    Series VIII – Fuck off.

    Back To Earth – Fuck off, slightly less.

    Series X – Lovely stuff.

    Series XI – Well…

    #220133

    International Debris

    I really don’t get what it is people enjoy about Tikka. From the opening section of cameras exploding because of (not actually very complex) complex science to the over-egged curry scene, the totally unnecessary introduction of the TARDIS-like interior of Starbug, the start of lolrandom Kryten, complete non-jokes like ‘picking on the chickens’ and the giant pizza, the crew brutally jumping on Lister and the most ridiculous plot-hole in a Dwarf episode tying it up, it suffers from absolutely everything I hate about VII. The last few times I did a start-to-finish run of Dwarf it just totally sucked the joy from the show within minutes. Blue is the only VII episode I ever particularly want to watch.

    #220134

    Phobos And Deimos

    I’ve had a fan-edit of Tikka running around my head for a while and I might just give it a shot.

    – You trim the opening down, you start the episode with a stylised, widescreen recap of the final scene of ‘Out Of Time’ without any dialogue by utilising the soundtrack audio and then you fade to black and onto the Lister camera scene. Trim out the fat, trim down the camera explosion and just tighten it up.

    – New in-episode title – ‘OUT OF TIME – PART II’

    – The larger Starbug scene can be halved in running time or thereabouts. Shots of them climbing down stairs and so on can be whipped out.

    – The chicken joke is great, you need to show how far the other way Kryten will lapse when not fully moralised up in the head.

    – Fat Basteria, come on, the delivery is great even if the joke’s a bit iffy.

    – Trim the ending down to one kick or punch each and freeze at that point. It’s funny with one or two smacks but I agree, the prolonged beating is a bit crazy. Hell, even fade out from the beating into a final scene taken from the extended edition, there’s plenty of ways to go about it.

    – Reformat the titles and credits and remove the bloody Times New Roman font. Every time I see it, I feel like I’m watching an episode of Keeping Up Appearances.

    #220135

    Plastic Percy

    Tikka to Ride also has the awfully acted police officers, who manage to deliver some of the worst exposition I’ve ever heard. They try to cram Kennedy alive, Oswald dead, foiled assassination into just two sentences. Not to mention firing guns that are clearly just sparking and not damaging or impacting anything they’re aimed at.

    It’s also bizzare that suddenly Lister has no knowledge of or interest in twentieth century pop culture. I mean, he can play a Michael Jackson song on the guitar and knows who Marilyn Monroe, Brooke Shields, The Flintstones are. Not to mention having seen every episode of St. Elsewhere.

    TARDIStarbug is something that’s annoyed me. It’d been creeping in since VI where you had engine decks and sleeping quarters in a ship that had previously been established as being little more than two rooms. VII takes it to ridiculous extremes with having multiple cargo bays, two miles of air ducts, a VR suite, stasis booths and even an entire landing bay so Ace can land his ship inside. Worryingly, X and XI seem to continue the trend – the way the characters leave Blue Midget’s cockpit makes it look like there’s a whole corridor outside, and Starbug in XI has multiple entrances in its midsection and even mentions having a games room with a pool table in it.

    #220136

    International Debris

    The thing about ‘picking on the chickens’ is it isn’t a good joke. I like the idea of a Kryten with no moral guidelines, but given that all it seems to do is make him say “you bet your ass” and make “observations” that are little more than very poor picking/chicken wordplay it seems like a wasted attempt. I’d prefer something more insidious in which he gradually leads them down a very bad, dangerous path rather than just some very broad comedy.
    The pizza joke is unforgivable. A few minutes on from being so scientifically knowledgable that he confuses a video camera into annihilation, Lister suddenly can’t tell a corpse from a pizza? Horrible, horrible rubbish.

    Ugh, Plastic Percy’s reminded me of the whole shooting scene. Those cops are absolutely terrible. Not to mention “I’ll carefully take this cable off but very deliberately leave my foot in a loop” followed by “look, some cable is moving, everybody pull it for no reason!” Absolutely appalling plotting, just characters doing incredibly unlikely or stupid things for no reason other than to achieve a plot goal.

    re: TARDIStarbug in VI, I either have head canon or have actually read that it’s suggested Kryten spent the deep sleep period remodelling the ship from the inside to make it more liveable as it was their permanent home for the foreseeable future. It’s a push, but I can just about forgive it. But the whole idea of “dimensional anomalies” causing the ship to expand on the inside only seems to exist so Doug would write in stuff including a VR suite (as opposed to the much more believable headset version in Gunmen), cargo decks etc., not to mention including that scene in the turbine room which looks cool, but is totally unnecessary. And obviously the whole of Duct Soup, in which miles of ducts are cleaned with water and then dried on a regular basis – on a ship-to-surface transport vessel.
    If only Doug had had a simpler, more straight-forward way of having the characters in a much larger, labyrinthine ship – say a mining ship of sorts.

    #220137

    International Debris

    I mean obviously there’s really funny stuff in Tikka (“just programming it now, matey boy”, “Texas Book Depository”, “his was just… higher up”) but as an overall episode it feels like a horrible convoluted mess and no better than the bulk of VII.

    #220138

    Phobos And Deimos

    I always thought the Starbug expansion between Series VI and VII was down to the future Starbug and present Starbug somehow amalgamating in some space-wacey, time-wimey dimensional hoo-hah resulting from the temporal paradox. I assumed the future crew had a dimensional expansion machine that gave them more space within Starbug to fulfil their decadent ways.

    As with between Series V and VI where they lose Red Dwarf and go into hyper-sleep, I thought Kryten spent the best part of a few decades completely retrofitting the ship to accommodate a permanent crew.

    #220139

    Plastic Percy

    VI Starbug just about works, as whilst there is more than we’ve seen before you can just about make it all fit (the engine decks and living quarters making up part of the rear section of the Bug) and I’ve always understood it that the sleeping quarters/science room/medi-bay are all the same room but with various pieces of equipment wheeled out when necessary. Plus we do see some economy in Gunmen of the Apocalypse when it’s clear that Lister and Cat are bunkmates.

    And Phobos, you’re right – the design ethic was that Kryten had spent two hundred years refitting the ship to make it both suitable for long term habitation and to better chase Red Dwarf.

    #220140

    Plastic Percy

    Here’s the deckplan from the roleplaying game. The creators have said they put it together watching VI and that they’ve had to fudge it to make things work. The medi-bay is clearly an entrance to the cargo decks in Psirens and it’s clear there’s a door under/next to the stairs in Out of Time when Rimmer runs out to shoot the Time Drive.

    http://www.coldnorth.com/owen/game/startrek/universe/source/fun/starbugdecks.jpg

    #220141

    Phobos And Deimos

    The Kryten retrofit does work in that deckplan, the cargo hold is a touch too small but overall it makes sense given the limited internal capacity.

    As for the Series VII Starbug, oh boy, you have to assume the inside was expanded by a factor of a hundred to even begin to make sense of the gargantuan engine deck, the crawlspaces, the medi-bay, everything. Plus, some of those areas didn’t exist even as more compact versions before the temporal paradox so I’m leaning towards the idea that the future and present Starbugs amalgamated somehow, retaining features of the present-day ship and adding new volume and features of the future craft.

    It begs the question, why didn’t the future crew upgrade to a luxury cruiser? Were the time and faster than light drives hardwired into Starbug and unable to be transferred?

    #220142

    Plastic Percy

    Kryten does mention that the cargo decks alone have expanded by 212% in Tikka to Ride.

    One thing I don’t like about the changes, more of a niggle really, is that the Starbug control sticks have turned into simple black handles instead of the white triangular ones used in IV – VI.

    Speaking of the Starbug cockpit, I’ve recently noticed how shoddy it looks in III. The controls are just a set of keyboards and instead of the jet fighter style pilot chairs they have to sit on simple folding chairs instead. Except for in Backwards, where Rimmer is sat on a high backed one that looks rather shabby.

    #220143

    Dax101

    They did go abit far with the starbug expansion for series 7.

    #220144

    Dave

    I don’t think they went far enough. I think they should be able to dock Red Dwarf inside it.

    #220145

    International Debris

    The dimensional anomalies thing is a fairly flimsy excuse for it all really, although yes it is there. But it all just seems so utterly convoluted when the far simpler solution of ‘they find Red Dwarf’ would have it all make much more sense in-universe. Most of VII is blatantly written for a Red Dwarf-sized ship, I just can’t get why Doug thought a ‘bigger on the inside’ Starbug would be the best way to achieve that.

    #220146

    SoundableObject

    We need to ask Ed Bye about this.

    #220147

    flanl3

    Then where do we place the starbug upper deck set?

    #220148

    Phobos And Deimos

    Now that I think about it, we all casually accept that they just lost a five mile long interplanetary tramp steamer between Series V and VI and there’s nary a peep as to how, why or exactly when. If Doug had pulled that trick, say between Series X and XI, they’d be fucking mayhem on this forum.

    So it’s not out of the question that they’re on a Sunday drive one day between Tikka To Ride (OUT OF TIME – PART II) and Stoke Me A Clipper, Cat’s at the helm snoozing and they whack straight into the side of Red Dwarf purely by chance.

    I think the original arc of the movie was to be on Starbug for Act I, find Red Dwarf with a full crew mysteriously enough for Act II and some heroic simulant bashing and saving the ship and the day in Act III so it made sense to keep them on Starbug for Series VII which also acted as a visual test-run for the movie.

    #220149

    Phobos And Deimos

    Pray I don’t go any further.

    #220151

    bloodteller

    “I think the original arc of the movie was to be on Starbug for Act I, find Red Dwarf with a full crew mysteriously enough for Act II and some heroic simulant bashing and saving the ship and the day in Act III”

    wasn’t the movie supposed to be an entire reboot of the series though? it was mentioned as being a “non-sequel” several times i think.

    #220152

    Phobos And Deimos

    Thank fuck the Duke of Manchester nixed the idea then.

    #220153

    Dave

    Now that I think about it, we all casually accept that they just lost a five mile long interplanetary tramp steamer between Series V and VI and there’s nary a peep as to how, why or exactly when.

    There’s the whole conversation in Psirens about the ship being stolen that sets up the overarching story. It’s a long-running mystery that doesn’t get resolved until the end of series VII. It’s not like they just forget to explain it.

    #220154

    Phobos And Deimos

    I know but it’s the casualness I find funny. Older Doctor Who was the same, they would just chuck canon, continuity and whole characters out of the window with no explanation, leaving that canon-loving bastard tinker Moffat to skip amongst the ruins and pick off the best bits.

    #220155

    Dave

    I don’t tend to mind overlooking canon and continuity concerns if it makes for a better story. And Red Dwarf has done enough rewriting of its past history that it shouldn’t be surprising when it happens.

    But the plot about losing the ship doesn’t fall into that category for me. It’s just an attempt to do something a bit different with a series arc (that obviously ended up running for a couple of series).

    Rewatching Psirens recently, I realised how much it felt like a ‘soft reboot’ for the show (a bit like the first episode of the latest series of Doctor Who). It spends a fair bit of time at the beginning restating the concept of the entire show, and in doing so moving it on from the point where we left it at the end of the previous series. It’s a bit of a jump for regular viewers but I think it works fine.

    #220156

    Darrell

    ‘Canon’ is an overvalued, very modern dogma. If anything it actually contradicts and runs counter to the fluidity of human memory.

    Canon spring-cleaning/gatekeeping dressed up as entertainment is always joyless bollocks.

    #220157

    Phobos And Deimos

    But I like the joyless bollocks of it all.

    #220158

    International Debris

    I’m not the biggest fan of the losing Red Dwarf idea as it takes things a touch too heavily into the action/adventure approach for my liking, but I can completely appreciate it as a creative decision to take the show somewhere new. It gives VI a very distinct feel, and while it isn’t one I always appreciate, I have no criticism of the decision to do so. It also adds a touch of peril to their situation, which returns to the sense of bleakness from the earlier series.

    VII just feels like a case of Doug wanting to have his cake and eat it. Let’s have them flying round in Starbug, but let’s also have Starbug big enough to have miles of ducts, a massive VR suite, large cargo decks, a science room, a big misty turbine room etc.

    Put it another way: in Dimension Jump, when the Wildfire hits Starbug, the ships are the same size. In Stoke Me a Clipper, the Wildfire docks in a comparatively cavernous room in the rear section of Starbug. If Doug wanted the scale of the mothership back, I cannot fathom why he didn’t just write it back in.

    #220159

    Phobos And Deimos

    Well I can’t bloody well make it all non-canon. Right, here we go…

    Rimmer destroys the time drive, Starbug explodes in a ball of temporal flame and nineteen years later, we’re somehow back on Red Dwarf as Lister watches a pig race. At this point, we’re going to be down to the second half of Marooned and a seven minute video of autograph signing at Dimension Jump XV in which I’m caught almost tripping over in front of Chris Barrie.

    It’s never irked me how big Starbug is in Series VII up to recently. Now I can’t shake the ridiculousness of it.

    #220162

    International Debris

    I remember finding it a tiny bit strange at the time (I also remember really cringing at the pizza joke on first watch, thinking ‘wow, I hope it all isn’t this unfunny’), it’s just got more annoying every time I’ve watched it.

    #220163

    Dave

    I remember thinking that the whole thing with Starbug expanding was just an excuse to get those turbine shots in.

    Obviously it was more than just that, but even at the time I remember it feeling quite forced.

    To be honest though, even in VI there are times when it feels like the ship is a bit too big and they’ve had to stretch it for plot reasons – especially the location in Psirens with the waste compactor.

    #220164

    Phobos And Deimos

    Godley & Creme – The History ~ Of Changes To Starbug’s Interior Volume ~ Mix Volume 1

    #220165

    Plastic Percy

    I’ve often wondered if it was the notion of not filming in front of an audience that spurred Doug to expand (Xtend, if you will) Starbug’s interior. I – V were limited to basically the bunk room, science room/drive room, a bit of corridor and one or two guest sets.

    #220166

    Paul Muller

    The fact that they have a time machine which can transport them through time and space, as it does in Tikka, begs the following question:

    Why didn’t they just time-jump back to Red Dwarf’s last known location before it went missing, lurk around waiting for their past selves to fuck off in Starbug then collect Red Dwarf and carry on their merry way?

    That would also give a nice paradoxy, warped logical explanation as to why it went missing in the first place and avoid all the nanobot bullshit.

    #220167

    International Debris

    Yes, that would be a superb way to a) bring Red Dwarf back and b) get rid of all the daft TARDIStarbug nonsense from VII.

    The “we can’t use the time drive to go back to the past because it could interfere and fuck everything up” idea is a sound one, but as you say, why not just go back to Red Dwarf around the time they lost it, as that’s not going to be interfering with any timelines.

    Along the same lines, searching for the cure in Epideme could have been achieved by just using the time drive to get to the planet rather than tricking the virus into updating the ship’s engine. Just go two seconds into the future and set coordinates for the planet.

    I fucking hate the time drive.

    #220168

    bloodteller

    they COULD’VE used the timedrive to get back to Red Dwarf, but for most of Series VII the characters seem to stop giving a shit about finding the ship at all. they never even mention that they’re even searching for it, and it isn’t even spoken of until Nanarchy (i think?) like even a brief mention that they need to find it would at least be something, but no they just spend the entire series driving around deep space in search of nothing in particular

    #220171

    International Debris

    There’s the deleted ‘long story’ joke in Ouroboros. A very funny joke that’s driven into the ground, VIII-style.

    #220174

    Phobos And Deimos

    All I’ve ever wanted was a standard issue Aigburth Arms Grav-Pool table held up by chains.

    #220175

    Plastic Percy

    They could’ve used the time drive when they got back to the ocean planet from Back to Reality. Go back two hundred years or so and find Red Dwarf where they parked it. If they were the ones who stole Red Dwarf from themselves they could’ve avoided VIII.

    #220176

    Paul Muller

    “Gosh, I just said that!”

    “Did you, really? That’s incredible! What a lovely story!”

    #220177

    Stephen Abootman

    We badly need some Series XII news.

    #220178

    flanl3

    What? No! This is the regular discussion of a fandom which is completely and totally not bored!

    #220179

    Dave

    Yeah, but listen – what if they used the time drive to go back and steal Red Dwarf from their past selves? That would tie it all up nice and neatly, and avoid VIII and the nanobot stuff altogether.

    #220180

    Phobos And Deimos

    I know what we would all do with the time drive.

    Snipe Hitler? No.
    Persuade Rob Grant to remain on for another two series? No.
    Forge the signatures on contracts promising at least two American seasons of Red Dwarf? No.

    We would crowdfund an entire series worth of barely watchable, badly compressed mobisodes and then fuck each other!

    That’s what we would do!

    #220181

    flanl3

    What if they went back in time amd killed themselves over the time drive?

    #220182

    Dave

    What if they went back in time and killed themselves over the time drive?

    Then explaining it would make a video camera explode, or something.

    #220184

    International Debris

    You know what fucks me off about the video camera exploding thing? I said that’s how it’d resolve in the school playground when I was 11. Ok I’m autistic and probably have more of a grasp of time travel / paradox logistics than your average 11 year old, but it was so fucking patronising that the idea was portrayed as so complex that it made cameras explode. There are far more complicated ideas than that in the history of the show, so to have a “lol so complex it fucks up hardware” complete highlights the dumbing down of the show in VII / VIII.

    #220186

    Pete Part Three

    The video camera has obviously got AI in it, and has…ah, fuck this. I’m not defending this. It’s not worth the effort.

    #220187

    flanl3

    A very low level of AI. It’s a fairly simple joke, it’s not like it makes everything explode. Thus, Kryten.

    #220193

    SoundableObject

    No, ketchup makes Kryten’s head explode.

    #220195

    Ben Paddon

    In fairness, Kryten lived through the paradox. The camera AI…

    …oh, I’m going to bed, this is gonna go on all night.

    #220198

    flanl3

    I mean, I never would have guessed that the camera had AI if it hadn’t exploded. Was it actually listening to and analyzing what Lister was saying? Why?

    #220201

    bloodteller

    maybe the camera blew itself up out of sheer frustration at Lister’s half-arsed cliffhanger explanation

    #220202

    Phobos And Deimos

    Exploding cameras, half-arsed explanations, tedious shots of massive wind tunnels, macabre violence to end the episode, all that and more will be resolved and tidied up in the all-new, all-saucy special edition of Tikka to Ride, now titled ‘Out of Time – Part II’.

    DISCLAIMER – Will still include The Fat Basteria joke.

    #220204

    clem

    Unless I’ve never actually gotten the joke, Jeff K is at least as bad as giant pizza. Is it just that Rimmer’s meant to be saying “JFK” in such a way that it sounds like “Jeff K” to Lister?

    The camera explodes because they’re in an unreality bubble.

    #220206

    flanl3

    The camera bubbles because they’re in an unreality explosion.

    #220209

    Dave

    Come to think of it, why is Lister recording a complicated explanation of the cliffhanger resolution anyway?

    #220213

    Phobos And Deimos

    To document life on-board ship, which is code for ‘can’t be arsed weaving exposition into the story-line so here’s a big, steaming data dump at the beginning’.

    #220214

    International Debris

    Because that’s how you send out an SOS.

    Jeff K sort of amuses me at how crap it is, but yes it’s not a very good joke. There are a lot of not very good jokes in Tikka.

    #220218

    Dave

    Because that’s how you send out an SOS.

    I like the idea that an SOS needs to detail everything that you’ve been up to in the past week.

    Why would people come and help you if they didn’t know the precise details of how you got into your current predicament?

    #220221

    International Debris

    It doesn’t really work as an SOS, does it?

    “SOS! Help! Help! The ship’s crashing! Let me tell you the intriguing and frankly difficult-to-believe set of occurrences that led to this scenario, using this handily recorded multi-angle footage of said occurences. We-”
    BOOM

    #220223

    flanl3

    It’s a better SOS than the Samsara tried.

    “Oh, yes, let’s invite everyone to our orgy. That’ll make them want to come and save us!”

    Wait, no, that’s an excellent SOS. Never mind.

    #220229

    Ian Symes

    G&T Admin

    Maybe the camera read this thread.

    #220230

    Phobos And Deimos

    Maybe the camera linked into the time drive and saw Series VIII.

    #220231

    performingmonkey

    Don’t know if there are any Oasis fans here, but, to me, VII & VIII are essentially what Be Here Now was for Oasis – the overblown ‘bloated’ 3rd album that came off the back of the huge popularity they had acquired by that stage.

    Things were starting to go this way in VI… but VII is also where the following mantra was fully embraced – ‘ohhh we’re just a silly sitcom, so let’s be a silly sitcom!’ I believe the main reason VII doesn’t work is due to how this attitude totally flies in the face of the more ‘filmic’ look and feel. It’s such a clash!

    Kryten’s character change epitomises the whole thing. Suddenly he’s being written and played like he’s ‘that silly mechanoid from that sitcom who whines, moans and cleans’, instead of simply BEING Kryten and letting the audience come to that conclusion naturally. VII is the series where they all should have been at their LEAST ‘sitcom’y’ stereotypical selves… It’s fine for them to be like that in a series like VIII (which has its own failings, for sure…..) but in VII it’s plain weird.

    AH WELL…

    #220232

    SoundableObject

    Series VI is Be Here Now.

    Series VII is Standing on the Shoulder of Giants.

    #220233

    Plastic Percy

    Does that make Back to Earth the documentary Supersonic?

    #220234

    cwickham

    Should they have continued this thread after Post VI?

    #220236

    Phobos And Deimos

    Series VI is Be Here Now? Series VI is The Masterplan, Series VII is Be Here Now and Series VIII is a video of Liam Gallagher knocking the fuck out of Patsy Kensit.

    Back to Earth is Standing on the Shoulder of Giants, Series X is Heathen Chemistry and Series XI is some arsed-up free with the NME tribute to Oasis by a bunch of no-mark indie synth wanks.

    I just don’t understand people who dislike Series VI.

    #220240

    SoundableObject

    Equating Series VI to Be Here Now does not mean that I dislike Series VI.

    #220243

    International Debris

    VI being Be Here Now works contextually, because it makes VII SOTSOG (the attempt at doing some more ‘serious’, darker and experimental) and VIII Heathen Chemistry (the embarrassingly failed attempt to return to its roots). I suppose BtE being Don’t Believe the Truth sort of works (both were seen as somewhat of a return to form at time but have been viewed less kindly with time), whilst X being Dig Out Your Soul might work, but I’ve only heard it once, despite owning it. Largely because my girlfriend loathes Oasis.

    #220244

    Darrell

    I hope we get the XII synopsis on Friday as otherwise we’ll be reduced to discussing what flavour Revel series VII is most like.

    #220245

    Phobos And Deimos

    Series VI is toffee. You have to persist with them but you enjoy the end result.

    Series VII is orange creme. Nice flavour but there’s something amiss, a certain sourness and you can’t eat too many.

    Series VIII is coffee, naturally. You like them at first but then you feel sick as fuck after a few and you just throw the whole packet away and makes you appreciate the sweet, Vice Versas goodness of Series V.

    Now, if Series VIII was a war crime, what war crime would it have been?

    #220250

    SoundableObject

    Series 1 and 2 is Galaxy Counters
    Series III to V is Toffee
    Series VI is Malteser
    Series VII is Orange
    Series VIII is Coffee
    Back to Earth is the discontinued Peanut
    Series X to XII is Raisin

    #220255

    Phobos And Deimos

    Series I is Malteser, Series II is more Aero Mint and Series III is a Smarties Easter egg with the classic brown mug.

    #220256

    flanl3

    Should this thread have continued after post VI?

    #220257

    Dave

    Series I and II are like Kitkats with ‘Rowntree’ written down the middle.

    Series III and IV are like Kitkats with ‘KitKat’ written down the middle.

    Series V and VI are like Kitkats with ‘KitKat’ written down the middle after they discontinued the foil wrapper and switched to the peel-off plastic strip.

    Series VII is like those limited edition orange KitKats

    #220258

    Dave

    Series VIII is like those limited edition triple chocolate KitKats.

    BtE is like a KitKat Chunky.

    X and XI are like the new recipe KitKats that are out at the moment.

    #220261

    Phobos And Deimos

    I dunno, Series IV feels more like a KitKat Chunky and the Bodysnatcher Series I & II documentaries are the foil-wrapped KitKats.

    I’m not sure what to think anymore. Series V is starting to imitate the 1985 CD pressing of Dire Straits’ ‘Brothers In Arms’ rather than confectionery.

    Or maybe a well-used Commodore 1541 floppy drive.

    #220272

    cwickham

    Should someone else have made the “Should this thread have continued after post VI?” joke after I already made it?

    #220284

    International Debris

    Should this thread have continued after post VI?

    #220285

    Phobos And Deimos

    With the lights out, it’s less dangerous
    Here’s Series VIII now, entertain us
    I feel stupid and contagious
    Here’s Series VIII now, entertain us

    #220286

    flanl3

    Should someone else have made the “Should this thread have continued after post VI?” joke after I already made it?

    Should somebody really have pointed out that I accidentally stole a joke?

    Should somebody have noticed that it was in dire need of being made again?

    #220710

    quinn_drummer

    I’ve just read this entire thread from beginning to end. Thanks for keeping me entertained for an hour and a half guys.

    Got completely with the Oasis comparisons and coffee Revels are the best so fuck the lot of you.

    Also, I think possibly the reason people like Tikka so much, despite some of its flaws, is that it’s the most heavily sci-fi concept Red Dwarf has ever attempted I think, at least at the time. I love the idea of JFK shooting himself to fix the timelines, and it plays with history in a somewhat more informed way than you might expect from a sitcom.

    Also think it’s the more focused of the episodes of VII, the most Red Dwarfy. It’s a rounded story that’s about putting the characters in a comedic situation, whereas the rest of the series is more character drama with funny elements to it.

    To answer the threads title question … yes it bloody well should have. Even if the show is shit it gives us something to watch and discuss as fan. Some of us will love bits others don’t, we’ll get excited and apprehensive for new episodes, but ultimately it gives us something to come together and discuss that’s new and different. Even if we are capable of spending a year discussion post s06 and everything else in one post thread … comparing series to Oasis albums and Revels.

    #220981

    Tranter

    I haven’t bought a Radiohead album after Amnesiac. I know the later stuff exists but who gives a shit?

    My Series I to VI collection looks very neat without the rubbish that comes after.

    Series VII gets a pass but it sits away from the main collection like a purple special needs bus.

    #220986

    cwickham

    Should Tranter have continued after being banned from account VI?

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