A Message from Norm News Posted by John Hoare on 23rd February 2007, 02:45 Hmmm. “It is very unfair of Grant Naylor to keep all you Red Dwarf fans hanging on for so many years in the hope that there will be a film. To be realistic about it which is always my chosen path, I do not think there will ever be one. I have spoken with many of you over the years and we all seem to agree that Red Dwarf should have had an ending of some kind whether it be a TV special or a final series. I cannot go into any personal details or the buggers will sue my ass off as they say in some parts of the world. It is a shame but you do have enough episodes to watch, imagine if there had only been 2 series like Fawlty Towers, mind you they would have been the funniest. So please don’t ask me about the Red Dwarf movie any more. Pass it on.” Don’t hold back, Norm. Say how you feel. Personally speaking, I still think that whilst Doug Naylor is still out there searching for funding, the movie is more likely to happen than not happen. He’s not an idiot, and if he didn’t think there was still a good chance, he would have given up by now. I’m intrigued to know why Norman Lovett thinks he knows more than Doug in this matter – and I fail to see what’s unfair about Doug still trying to make a Dwarf film and not giving up on it, when he clearly still thinks there’s a good chance of it happening. Oh, and Series III-VI are just as funny as the first two series. Ya big eejit. Just because you’re not in them… Having said all of that – Red Dwarf IX? A special, or series of specials? I can’t deny that – movie permitting – …well, yes please.
I’m somewhere between “Ooh, controversial opinions!” and “Holy shit, he actually updated his website!”
He may well be right that it wont happen…Time will tell… It seems to me that this is more about him being asked about the movie and getting pissed off, rather than the movie itself… Either it’s a jibe at GNP or a jibe at fans who ask questions, this looks a bit of both.. I guess it has to be read as a touch of biting the hand that feeds him.. The word ‘Tosser’ springs to mind..
He sounds pissed off that he’s been kept hanging on about the movie. We can all have bad days, give him some slack, it’s his website for him to moan on as much as he wants. I liked both the Holly and Hilly versions of the show’s computer character. I suspect I’m probably not alone here, but I do agree with his comments that there should be something to nicely end the Red Dwarf legacy, be it a film or a one off show.
I think Norman is getting hounded by fans via email, over a film which he is just going to be a character in. How much he knows about the movie is probably just as much as any fan does. He is probably just fed up of people asking him; and with no solid news from Doug and GNP to fans he must feel like he will be answering the same question for the rest of his life (or until the Movie is made), which must be annoying to say the least.
That’s the thing, I imagine other cast members get bugged about it as much as – if not more than – Norman, especially Robert, who has the most visible and constantly-updating web presence of all of them. Yet you don’t see him having a go at GNP and a more implicit go at the fans.
I’m inclined to leave this one altogether, but as its been brought up for debate and announced publically on Normans site, I think it’s open for comment. Had he left a statement saying that he had no news on the Movie and therefore was not in a position to comment or answer emails on the subject, then fair enough… As it is, he’s had a swipe at his employers whether intentionally or not for being ‘unfair’ to fans, and told the fans he’s basically fed up of hearing about it… Correct me if I’m wrong, but Normans site (and career even) is highly Red Dwarf related and invites contact on the subject. Yes, we all have off days and get fed up of repetitive things in life, but you dont invite these things into your life and then complain about it publically without expecting a response. I may be overreacting here, but have to be honest and say I’m not impressed though it’s just my opinion… He’s being honest, we have to be too.. I would also add, that in Red Dwarf terms, a cast member coming out with a statement like this is quite a biggy…
It would be a bigie is Norman has the smallest clue what the shitting hell he was talking about. But he clearly doesn’t, as all the accusations he’s made about the film not happening have been contradicted on a number of occasions by GNP. The people who know. You’re not over reacting, though, Steve – Norman stepped over the line by publishing his oft trotted out opinions on his site. It was fine when he was doing it at DJ and what not, but this isn’t on, at all…
Still, no need to be rude, eh? I don’t think it was intending to be rude. He sounds to me like he’s expresing ‘his’ opinion about something he is probably asked hunderedes of times on a weekly basis. Anyone on ‘this’ site cannot say anything about being rude. can they? Yet you don?t see him having a go at GNP and a more implicit go at the fans. I don’t read it as him having a go at GNP as such, more of a gentle reminder to everyone that it’s GNP who are in charge of the movie and any questions should go to them and not him. Correct me if I?m wrong, but Normans site (and career even) is highly Red Dwarf related and invites contact on the subject. You’re wrong. Norman is best known (by us fans) as Holly from Red Dwarf, but his career is stand-up comedy. You only have to look further than his latest page to realise that. http://www.normanlovett.co.uk/biography.htm He’s 60 years old for god sake, give the man a break!
Of course, because his age instantly protects him from any criticism. I don?t think it was intending to be rude. He sounds to me like he?s expresing ?his? opinion about something he is probably asked hunderedes of times on a weekly basis. He is expressing his opinions. But he’s also putting them forward as fact, which is hugely inappropriate, given that he has a vested interest in the whole project. Yes, we’re rude, but the difference we don’t go around shooting our mouths off about high profile projects we hope to be involved in (beacsue, well, there isn’t any). He’s bound to be in the film once it goes ahead, so making comments like in a public manner is massively inappropriate and just should not be done beacsue it’s damaging to the reputation of GNP and himself. You?re wrong. Norman is best known (by us fans) as Holly from Red Dwarf, but his career is stand-up comedy. You only have to look further than his latest page to realise that. No. You’re wrong. If anything, Red Dwarf fans are more likely to be aware of his stand up than a passive observer, beacsue we’re naturally curious about his other work. The passive observer (unless they’re a big comedy fan) will *always* know him for his most famous role as Holly.
Look, i wasn’t saying that his age protects him from fucking criticism. All he was stying in his statement is that ‘he’ doesn’t think there will ever be one. Not that there WILL never be one, it’s just what he thinks. Thats his opinon, not fact! I know it’s G&T’s objective to rip to shreds every word in every sentence on every site thats even got the slightest link to red dwarf, but come on. I must have read the atricle in a totally different way to you, because he’s said this to me in the past and I see no offence from the way he said it. he will have fans of his stand-up comedy. By passive observer, I take it you mean someone who has seen Red Dwarf? I know more than a few people who have never seen Red Dwarf so know him from other things, so they won’t *always* know him as Holly.
That’s the one. Actually, now I’m here: “I know it?s G&T?s objective to rip to shreds every word in every sentence on every site thats even got the slightest link to red dwarf” I’d like some evidence for this remark, please. Also, are you posting on here in a personal capacity, or representing the fan club team? G&T have been by far the most supportive voices of any further RD material in the fan community, so I find your reaction to John’s article disappointing. Whether Norman means it or not, he has just unfairly painted Doug’s fight for movie funding as some sort of malicious attempt to piss off Dwarf fans, and I think John’s written a very fair-minded article in the circumstances. Also, it’s a bit rich critising G&T for being ‘rude’ when you subsequently swear (as I presume that’s what you were referring to) and infer that Norman’s a silly old dodderer. I hope no-one gives me ‘a break’ when I’m 60, as that’ll mean that I’m no longer taken seriously.
Personally, I think that there should be a Series IX or a special. Why not? All they have to do is ask the BBC. I’m sure that they’ll give them permission, considering how well-known and succesful Red Dwarf has been. And if they do it well, there’s a possibility that some movie director will see the new series, and realise it has movie potential.
Of course, the problem of discussions like these is that they can turn into a room of ill-informed people all coming to the same wrong conclusion. Presumably Doug knows what he’s doing, and that if putting new RD content out there was as easy as some people suggest, it would have happened by now. As I’m just as ill-informed as the next person, having faith in Doug’s judgement seems the only reasonable action. Remarks like Norm’s are just unhelpful, and are as unfair to RD fans as he alleges GNP have been.
I’d just like to point out that my comments were personal opinion and I’m not in the habit of ripping anything to shreds. I do try to be honest though and have always been supportive of Red Dwarf, The Fan Club and GNP but I will say if I dont like something, and this has riled me. Norman has been a great servant to Red Dwarf over the years and the fans including myself do appreciate it, but I find this wrong on several levels. To be honest, I’ve read this numerous times now and am still convinced the meaning is as clear as day. It is easy to be ill informed and read too much into a statement, but in this case it’s all there… I actually believe that there may be more to this than meets the eye, but have stuck to the ‘statement’ facts as I see them without trying to read between the lines..
If you don’t think “It is very unfair of Grant Naylor to keep all you Red Dwarf fans hanging on for so many years in the hope that there will be a film” is a criticism of GNP you’re a…well you know.
Tanya. Please don’t try to get me in trouble with GNP now. This is why I don’t comment on your site that often, as you’ve started on me. I find this as bullying, and I will NOT put up with it! The comments I made were my own personal ones and nothing to do with TORDFC (If TORDFC were to comment then it would be James who did so). Due to Norman being a good aquaintence I do not like to see what he has written is misread or mistaken. I’m sure he has not meant any ill feeling from what or how he has written it. I talk to him on the phone a little because I update his web site in parts (he is able to update the Latest page himself, as I set it up so that he can do so). Norman is one of the nicest blokes I’ve had the pleasure to meet and doesn’t have a bad bone in his body and anyone who wants to rip what he said to bits disgust me, to be honest.
For starters, I don’t think Tanya was trying to get you in trouble with GNP, and I think that’s a very unfair thing to say. She didn’t mention your name in connection with the company once – she mentioned Norman’s, and it’s not like she was bringing to their attention something that they wouldn’t already have known about. He made those remarks in about the most public arena possible. I think you’ll also find from the comments that have been made, that nobody bears Norman any actual ill will at all – a number of us just think that the comments were a bit misguided. In fact, if you read John’s original post, he’s remarkably restrained. All he says is, “This is what Norm has said, I don’t actually agree with it”. Alright, he used the phrase “ya big eejit”, but I’m sure anyone with half a brain would acknowledge that as a more joking, Father Ted-referencing way of saying it. We’ve all expressed concern that Norman should make such comments about something that he is still, at the end of the day, very much concerned with (and, dare I say it, still makes money off the back of – his appearance hosting the Eagle Awards is being billed as “Red Dwarf’s Holly, Norman Lovett”; not that he doesn’t have a right to do that, of course he does). I also think you’re wrong in feeling that his comments have been misinterpreted – they’ve been read about as literally as he meant them. Paul, no-one has actually had a go at you directly – you’ve expressed your opinion about Norman, and we’ve disagreed with it, but it’s him that we’re talking about, not you. So don’t go accusing us of “bullying”, because that strikes me as a very passive-agressive way of looking to get us into trouble.
Frankly, I dont know which is the most insulting, Being told that I’ve mis-read or miss-understood something which I’ve now read at least 10 times, or being told that voicing an opinion “disgusts” a member of the Fan Club team. I’ve said I dont agree with what he’s said and how it’s been written and if nothing else, it’s sparked ill feeling. Disagreeing with your point of view is not bullying and I for one, resent the implication. It’s all very noble sticking up for a friend or associate, but it’s also noble to respect those that have fed and clothed you over the years, so lets not get into principles here.
Steve First of all, I’m not here as a member of the fan club team, I’m here with my personal opinions. The two aren’t linked Also it wasn’r you Steve that I was regarding with the bullying. I don’t understand the last bit, what do you mean by “those that have fed and clothed you over the years”? Please elaborate. All I was trying to say all along is that Norman isn’t a bad person and what he’s said shouln’t be nitpicked the way it has.I was sticking up for a friend, yes. I’m sorry for even posting on this site and causing such an argument.
Yes, I did read that these were personal comments, but that wasn’t my point. I find it a little worrying, that you should question one or more of the ‘Fan Club’ members rights to voice an opinion albeit a negative one. Most of us have little doubt that Normans statement was critical of GNP. There were quite a few implications in that statemnet that I found unsavoury. Given that this was made by a very recent employee of GNP/Red Dwarf and someone we all hoped would work for them again made it all the worse. Saying that we were ‘strung’ along basically means we were lied to or deliberately mislead, if that’s not a slur, I dont know what is. It can’t be denied that saying ‘he could get his ass sued off’ even if meant in jest, implied that he maybe knew more on a ‘personal’level but couldn’t say anything as if to further back up his claims. The last time I read a statement like this it was from someone who had just been told they would no longer be required. By ‘those that have fed and clothed you’ I was referring to Normans willingness to have a pop at his employers and the ‘fans’ that have supported him along with his employers for many years and still buy products he’s a part of.. To put it another way, if someone I employed came out with a statement like this, I wouldn’t employ them again although I suspect GNP are not so narrow minded. I dont think you should be ‘sorry’ for posting, even if I dont agree with some of your comments. Freedom of speech and all that…
Paul, Please provide evidence for your allegation of bullying, as I think that’s rather a serious allegation to be throwing around. Also, you still haven’t provided evidence for this statement: ?I know it?s G&T?s objective to rip to shreds every word in every sentence on every site thats even got the slightest link to red dwarf?. To me, this seems to be a totally unfair statement. No-one in this thread, or in the original article, ever stated that Norman is a bad person. Of course he’s not. However, we reserve the right to make fair comment on what Norman says in a public arena, and frankly, if Norman’s willing to make what I regard as an unfair comment about a company that did nothing but good for his career, he should be willing to have people disagree with him.
Due to Norman being a good aquaintence I do not like to see what he has written is misread or mistaken. It’s there, in black and fucking white. Or, on Norm’s site, white and fucking black. Anyway, the concept that Tanya would bully anyone is patently ridiculous. Except for John, but let’s face it – he’s kind of a girl anyway. Norman isn?t a bad person No real question there. and what he?s said shouln?t be nitpicked the way it has. And why not, exactly? It’s not nitpicking to mention the fact that Norman Lovett said the movie would not happen. I think that’s the crux of everything Norm said, don’t you? What would be nitpicking is me mentioning that you have a misconception of the word nitpicking. (“To criticize minor, even insignificant details.”)
Blimey I’ve missed all the fun as usual. Seems much of a muchness over nothing really. So Norm, who most of us are aware can be a bit of a crotchety old git and a sour puss has in asking fans to stop bothering him with questions about the film had a bit of a dig at GNP. We’ll what of it? I doubt it’s going to impact hugely on GNP’s reputation. I very much doubt he fretted over the word of his statement. Looking at the bigger picture and trying to take this on a bit, I feel he’s kind of got a bit of a point. Not that I believe GNP or Doug is defrauding me in anyway (or owes me anything) it’s their franchise. They can ultimately do what they like with it. The bit of point I refer to is thinking about it, I would quite like a resolution on the story or at least something new in the Red Dwarf universe. Personally speaking, I’m not certain I’m really that bothered by the idea of “a movie” anymore? Obvious Doug still is, obviously various people at GNP are. Once upon a time, i.e. when I first read about the idea around pre-series VII (*I think*) it seemed a fantastic idea. Since then we’ve had a series I’ve grown to appreciate VII and VIII which and let’s be fair to it… was shite. No only kidding I realise a great many love Series VIII, but personally I don’t and I know my reasons. Much in the same way a football team is only as good as their last result (and I’m a Liverpool fan so applying this logic I support the best fucking team in all six known universes right now) if the movie is going to have the same humour/quality as series 8 did in my eyes. I’d much rather they didn’t faff about trying to raise funds during which time the barren years of new dwarf material racks up. I’d much rather a Series IX or another book or something, than this slow and slim chance of a movie that right now I’m not that optimistic will be any good. I guess somewhere amongst that is the sentiment gimme half-decent dwarf now rather than excellent dwarf ten years down the line. Which isn’t the most idealistic sentiment. It’s just heck it’s getting like Chinese Democracy now. Craig and Chris aren’t getting any younger, sure in the book and pilot script the characters were older but poppycock, the Lister & Rimmer we all got into weren’t two old guys. They were Lister in his mid 20’s and Rimmer a bit older. Likewise Danny looked considerably ropey in Series 8 as Cat. His make-up was horrid and the more years go buy how can a wider cinema audience be expected to buy this forty-something guy as a vain, egostical but frankly damn stylish young buck (well ok tom). Sure you can argue that Cat could be a different character now, an older cat. Again, however that’s not OUR cat. I’m sure Chloe looks as gorgeous and lovely as ever (providing someones fed her some crisps) but wasn’t one of the reasons for her replacing Clare Grogan that they felt they need a young beautiful english actress for the movie? This might be a steaming pile of hotspur. If it was true though they then found and cast a late twenty something actress ready for a movie within the next couple of years. Now it’s ten years on… if they had intended for a thirty-something actress surely they’d have cast someone in their thirties back in 1997. Heck it’s 2:37am ship time I’ve lost focus! Right now though I’d probably love a one-hour TV special or a dwarf radio series of new material written by Rog & Doug. A touring stage show, a new novel. Heck pretty much anything than a wait for a movie which IF it comes out. Will it be a success? What will it do for the franchise? Is it meant to cap everything off Red Dwarf wise or be the launching pad for a string of movies? Just what exactly does Doug/GNP plan for the franchise longer-term?
Trust Norman… So that’s Hattie for the role of Holly if the film gets made now, right? It’s wrong for him to say it’s been unfair of GNP to keep fans hopes up over the movie because SURELY GNP’s HOPES FOR THE MOVIE HAVE BEEN EVEN HIGHER THAN OURS??!?!? That’s unless we’ve been lied to/misled over how close the movie has been to achieving the funding and being greenlit so as not to deliver a blow to fandom, and I’ll admit that WOULD piss me off it that was the case, but I think we can safely say that it isn’t. Norman probably doesn’t know what’s going on. They’re not gonna inform him of every detail, he plays a head on a black background FFS… The fact remains, we’ve wanted new Dwarf, in whatever form, for over five years, and hope for this happening has not been false hope. It’s not as though we’ve been in a situation like Blackadder or something where it’s an old series and loads of people would want it back for a new series/special but there’s hardly any chance of it happening. Doug has a full script, he’s been doing his damnedest (is that a word?) to get it made in Australia, this isn’t over. He has repeatedly said it’s not the end for Dwarf, most notably at the end of the VIII DVD doco where you get the impression that Dwarf isn’t dead even if the movie ends up being so.
Well, quite. As frustrating as it is, it’s not unusual for films to spend years at this stage; you only have to read ‘Development Hell’ in SFX to realise that Doug isn’t doing anything out of the ordinary. At best, Norm’s view is a bit naive, and certainly doesn’t really help any Dwarf fan see the situation in context. If he’d made that sort of comment in an aside at DJ, then it would be more understandable, but posting it on his site seems to suggest that he’s thought it through carefully and still thinks it’s fair comment. That’s where G&T disagree. And that’s all we’ve said. Honest.
Rightly or wrongly Norm has been like this for quite a while now hasn’t he? I recall at DJ he was very dismissive of the film (infact this may have been two DJs ago) plus he’s never minced his words or been afraid of speaking out against his employers. Be it at DJ, on the Series 8 commentary or getting stroppy with Dona Di Stefano over his mini-football. Now I’m not saying he automatically should get the Holly part in any movie but this isn’t the first time he’s expressed such sentiments and it’s never seemed to throw into question his role before. Again not saying that’s right or wrong, just how it seems to be. I personally would be just as happy with Hattie as Holly. She’s been such a glorious servant to Red Dwarf over the years and is always such a trooper and approachable at DJ that it seems a real shame she has to play second fiddle to Norm.
The Red Dwarf series does need an ending though. When you think of how incomplete this unique journey feels and how badly the story needs another couple of hours, you’re entitled to feel depressed. It is being denied one of the things that makes a sitcom truly great – the tension of that final episode and the closure or lack of closure that it brings. Just knowing ‘this is a final episode’ is something so momumental that every long-running series needs it. And we have this movie which is irrelevant to the outcome of that series, a movie that with every passing year it isn’t made further lessens the possbility of further Dwarf being made and a movie that may prevent us from seeing that final thirty minutes. Fact is if Red Dwarf the series ends on ‘The Smeg it is’ and an unconvincing Death with nice feet getting a swift knee in the happy sacks, whatever good work has gone before, it doesn’t deserve to be called a classic sitcom.
I think GNP have really done wonders to increase the worth of the dwarfyverse through DVD and merchandising over the past few years. There’s a part of me that would like to see the dwarfyverse expand via a spin-off or something set in the same universe unrelated to the show. Not sure how others would feel about this?
>Fact is if Red Dwarf the series ends on ?The Smeg it is? and an unconvincing Death with nice feet getting a swift knee in the happy sacks, whatever good work has gone before, it doesn?t deserve to be called a classic sitcom. Whoa there, matey. Only Fools and Horses is still (rightly) seen as a classic sitcom, despite the later shows being a shadow of the show’s former self. I think you’re being a bit unfair. Also: Karl, if it was just Norm being dismissive of the film, it wouldn’t be so bad. It’s the accusation he makes that GNP have been keeping fans ‘hanging on’ on purpose that seems, well, just bloody rude, frankly. I’m used to him being a bit stroppy, but this is a bit different, especially as it’s an actual post on his site, rather than a throwaway remark. As for a spinoff; it’s a nice idea, certainly.
A spinoff set in the Dwarf universe pre-accident would be interesting, certainly. Something to do with the JMC, something set on Mimas or Io or Ganymede or something. Hmmmm.
Tanya: I do see your point, I guess if you are make a comment as an update on your personal website it does become a little more than a throwaway remark. I personally feel that’s how it was meant, likewise I’m not that bothered by it either but I do see why some could be. As for spin-offs: Despite the disregard of continuity the universe in Dwarf has always seemed so fun, vibrant and full of ideas. How about the idea of a Hologram private dectective with the ability to walk through walls? The fact that death doesn’t get you out of paying your taxes or having to pay for your own funeral. Also Series 3000 mechs. It always struck me there was a story to be written about those Androids in Human clothing who went on the run. There a huge amount of side stories that could be spun of throwaway remarks.
> How about the idea of a Hologram private dectective with the ability to walk through walls? How do you get the light bee through the wall? Sorry :), it is a good idea actually. In fact I’d be welcome to any sort of spin-off in the Dwarf universe. Maybe I’d prefer Star Wars/Who-like expanded universe books, not that it would ever happen. I do still have some hope that Rob or Doug will pen another Dwarf novel though. The biggest problem with someone other than them writing a Dwarf book is the humour side of things.
> How do you get the light bee through the wall? Just shows I’ve been harbouring that idea since before series IV. As you say the problem is getting the humour right, which makes a big difference between Dwarf and say something like Buffy. It takes us to the writing team approach used, sort of, in series VII, a) whether you consider it a sucess and b) whether you think it could ever be a sucess. Certainly dwarf material be it movie, book or series IX. I would want Doug (well Doug & Rob really). Yet for dwarf-alike side projects more material from Paul Alexander, James Hendrie or even Rob Llewellyn might work. Instead of feelig compelled to channel Rob & Doug they would be free to cultivate their own little bit of the galaxy under the wider banner of Dwarf. Now admittedly after all this guff. I tend to hate such expanded universes, be it Who or Star Wars. To me it all draws away from the strength of the original show and yet at the same time Dwarf has come so far from it’s humble little origins as a sitcom it’s well on the way to being such a globe brand bonanza. Aside from spin-offs, Dwarf the computer game? Dwarf the board game? Dwarf the customizable card game? The last of those could well be the next merchandise item due, every sci-fi show under the sun seems to get one.
> I tend to hate such expanded universes, be it Who or Star Wars. To me it all draws away from the strength of the original show A lot of EU stuff does yes. That’s because often it’s so far removed from what the original film/series is that you might as well get rid of the Star Wars/Doctor Who name altogether. Using the name is just a cash-in.
Spin-offs? More cruddy cash-ins from the likes of Paul Alexander? And what’s this new thing…GAMING CHIP COLLECTION?? How about we just appreciate what we have (Over 30 fantastic episodes and 8 bloody good DVDs), rather than wanting more merchandise (with no real justification for their existence other than ‘cashing in’) and ‘adventures’ (that, without Grant Naylor authorship, are little more than fan fiction) to tarnish the good name of Dwarf? I’m inclined to quote the reason for this article: “It is a shame but you do have enough episodes to watch” Moany gits unite!
PS – all the back and forthing of the G&T crowd against Paul Gannon on this thread is typical of the mob behaviour that regulars feel urged to activate around people who don’t post here very often. Bullying *is* the word.
> The Red Dwarf series does need an ending though. Repeat series VIII on BBC with the originally planned and filmed ending. Done.
Again, though – who actually had a go at Paul directly? Paul stood up for Norman (not without a vested interest), but was disagreed with. Nobody actually threw insults at him, nor deliberately ganged up on him – it just happened that the people who disagreed with him happened to be Tanya, Steve (not a G&T member), myself and Cappsy. The first person to directly have a go at anyone else in this entire discussion was Paul himself, when he said Anyone on ?this? site cannot say anything about being rude. That seemed to me to be welcoming, rather than diverting, confrontation.
> PS – all the back and forthing of the G&T crowd against Paul Gannon on this thread is typical of the mob behaviour that regulars feel urged to activate around people who don?t post here very often. Bullying *is* the word. I’m sorry, Matthew, but this complete balls. We all disagreed with what Paul was saying and so we expressed that. The very fact that we’re a group at all wasn’t even an issue until Paul made it one, with his false claims of bullying. So, what, we should all keep out mouths shut when someone says something we all disagree with? NO, we shouldn;t, beacsue this site is about free discussion, and when we comment we’re commenting as individuals, unless we state otherwise. I think it’s just an easy position to fall back on when you find yourself in the minority – just blame the others of ganging up on you and then sit back and enjoy the feeling of not needing to carry on with a discussion you were losing. The fact that most of the disagreement came from G&Ters is even more convienient, because then we can be accused to ganging up on people who don’t post here often, which is complete and total nonsense.
Just coming at this from a non G&T perspective. Sometimes it does “appear” that the accusations of ganging-up happen. Emphasis on “appear” there, having spent several years and a few drunken nights around you reprebates however I’ve sussed out why this is. It tends to be because the G&T crew operate as somewhat of a gestalt entity and therefore agree on a lot (not all) topics, likewise they also tend to share a very similar level of passion when dismissing or disagreeing with people. It is however mostly harmless and so long as you’ve got a point and some reasonable logic behind it they are quiet accomadating* * – Particularly Cappsy in the rectal area** ** – Too many drunken nights, it appears.
If nothing else, Normans comments have opened up a can of worms… Like I’ve already said, he may well be right about the film not happening and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to say, we would all like a satisafactory end to Dwarf and most of us would be happy with more Dwarf of any kind (within reason).. It’s not his opinions, his lack of hope for a movie or his continual jibes at Dwarf when he’s not in it that wound me up, it’s the way he’s wrapped his views up. I doubt it’s really worth everyone getting heated about, but we all have a right to comment on it. I dont like the implication we’ve all been taken in by GNP’s talk of a movie, I dont like the way he says that GNP have somehow been ‘very unfair to us’ and I dont like the way he’s left a nasty taste by implying he would get sued if he said more on what he personally knows. There’s even a loosly disguised dig at us fans for wanting more and being greedy. I stand by my comments although on the grand scale of things, his comments are not the end of the world nor the end of Dwarf. Perhaps he never meant for his words to come out like they have, perhaps it was intended in a jokey way or maybe he has reason to slag off GNP, I dont know. At the end of the day, being saddos as some describe us, we watch GNP very closely and I certainly believe we’ve had more than a good deal out of them. Why would a much loved member of the Red Dwarf cast have these digs? and why try to put a wedge between the fans and GNP?. Looking at it from the point of view of a casual fan, anyone reading that from a cast member could well take it at face value and assume the fans were being lied to, at least we question his comments. I dont think anyone has bullied Paul, and Paul has a right to comment like everyone else. The thing is, Paul probably does have more direct contact with Norman than any of us and feels the need to stand up for him, fair enough. I think what rubbed people up the wrong way, is his accusation that G&T rip everything to shreds when they are supportive of GNP in more ways than most, plus the comments that some of us have somehow mis-quoted or missunderstood Normans statement when it comes across as clear as day.. I dont think it will have any impact on GNP or the outcome of any plans, I just cant understand why he felt the need to post this statement, when he could have made a firm but fair statement on not wanting to discuss the movie full stop, no ill feeling and not open to speculation!
Because he probably didn’t put that much thought into it and had no idea it’d be over-analysed to such a degree?
That’s probably true, Perhaps Paul should let him know that it’s being over analysed in that case…. I notice it hasn’t hit the ‘Webboard’ or ‘TORDFC’ yet so maybe some of us are being over critical.
Well, here I am again, coming in at the end when the fight’s basically all over as Steptoe said to the American… A quick question for G & T: Would it be possible to add a feature that shows the most recent comments by date, so that poor saps like me who have only a few minutes a day to check in on one of the best fansites in the world (I mean it!) could see where the latest ‘hot’ discussions were brewing? Just a thought… Anyway, my feelings as per Norm’s comments are mixed to be honest. On the one hand I also have been bitterly disappointed that a movie has not yet been commissioned, but I would never blame GNP for that. Hell, when you see all the crap that is put on the big screen these days, why oh why has somebody not seen the potential in a RD movie, particularly when the profile of the show has probably never been higher since the slate of recent fantastic DVD releases? And in another sense, I see Norm’s point about there probably never being a movie at this point: the cast are getting older and to be brutal for a second, it is quite fortunate that a major cast member has not had his or her ashes flushed into space through a cheesy flip-top bin, given that the show aired almost 20 years ago. As time ticks on, a resolution of some sort must come and Doug Naylor may have to abandon his dream of a film or else it may be that some of the magic that was (and still is) RD could be lost forever without a suitable ending.
Watching Hot Fuzz on friday made me wonder if the film would indeed be a success anyway? Yes it’s another scarcely veiled Series 8 dig BUT watching Messrs. Pegg and Frost made me realise just how contempary and in their prime they seemed. Going back nearly fifteen years now I’d have enthusiastically whacked Dwarf in front of anyone and defied them not to see talented comedy actors, superb writing and original concepts all of which I felt could have won over a mass-audience. Should the film start shooting tomorrow could the respective components get anywhere near catching that magic formula or is it a fading star that missed it’s potential break through? Ye gods I’m a party-pooper.
A quick question for G & T: Would it be possible to add a feature that shows the most recent comments by date, so that poor saps like me who have only a few minutes a day to check in on one of the best fansites in the world (I mean it!) could see where the latest ?hot? discussions were brewing? Just a thought… Wow! Ta. Yeah, there is something that does this made for the backend system we’re using. I’ll have a look into enabling it.
>Wow! Ta. Yeah, there is something that does this made for the backend system we?re using. I?ll have a look into enabling it. That would be terrific – oh and thanks for the splendid wallpapers (yes I KNOW this is the wrong thread, but hey…): I now have the terminator on my desktop. One final comment on Norm’s message; I cannot condone much of what he had to say, but I am prepared to cut him some slack. He is one of the original cast and while I can understand that some may feel this makes his comments even less forgivable, I have personally always enjoyed his honest input on the commentaries and doccos and recognize that he is never loath to speak his mind, even at the risk of offence. Sometimes, this is not such a bad thing. I prefer to see the positives in all this: once again we are talking about new Dwarf in the shape of bodysnatchers (yes, I bloody know this is yet another thread, but I’ve been away a while ok?) and potentially new Dwarf in the form of a resolution and we would all be happy with that, whether or not this is in the shape of a movie.
>I think what rubbed people up the wrong way, is his accusation that G&T rip everything to shreds when they are supportive of GNP in more ways than most, plus the comments that some of us have somehow mis-quoted or missunderstood Normans statement when it comes across as clear as day.. Steve hitting the nail on the head, there. I was objecting to Paul making quite a powerful accusation against G&T without providing any evidence for this, especially as he is a fan club team member. I expect him to have his own opinions, but I don’t expect him to fire blanket accusations against what I feel to be a fair and balanced fan site, especially as most of us are fan club members and passionately care about RD fandom. Is that bullying? Also, there would be no ‘overanalysing’ if Paul hadn’t been so confrontational in the first place. There are ways to state your opinion sensibly, and he didn’t do that. As for Norm not expecting fans to react; well, I know it’s been suggested that we ‘give him a break’ because he’s nearing retirement age, but I know he’s more intelligent than that. I think he intended to provoke a reaction from someone with that statement, otherwise he would have used more tactful phrasing. Still, I’ve covered this ground already…
Comments on this could run and run. The fact is it wasn’t Norman’s place to say this and even if he does have more information about the movie’s status (or non-status) again it’s not up to him to come out and accuse GNP or get fans riled up.
I bet Norm is always getting asked “when will there be a movie / will there ever be a movie / any news on the movie / got any news on the funding situation for the movie / hey norm what have you heard from Doug about the movie / can you let us know or is it a secret, you know – about the movie!” Cut the poor guy some slack – he’s just being honest. Let’s face it you’d have to be absurdly optimistic to believe a movie of Red Dwarf is still potentially going to be made now. A made-for-TV one-hour special, maybe. Or three half-hour episodes if Doug and Ed still can’t tell what needs to be cut out. I think the day has passed for a full-blown series but maybe a one-off special to tie everything up for those people who’ll be interested in tuning in. It’ll be a bit like watching “Blackadder Back and Forth” I suspect though, in several ways.
It wasn’t Norm saying the film would never be made, though; it was him suggesting that GNP was deliberately letting fans hang on that was the problem. I’m repeating myself, I know, but I don’t know what it takes for people to stop missing the point of the damn article! I know you’re keen to state your opinion on the prospects of a RD film, Dennis, and you can, but I do wish you’d read the posts on the thread more carefully, mate. As I’ve said before, I don’t know the full details of the funding problems with the RD film, but Doug’s an intelligent guy; if he thought he was wasting his time, he’d stop.
I’d actually like to see a wider range of views on the subject myself and maybe some fresh angles. We’re all repeating ourselves and I suspect it will blow over. It’s not about whether, Norman himself, Tanya, Dennis, me or anyone else outside of GNP think the movie will/may/could happen, it’s about the implication that Grant-Naylor have been unfair to the fans for years as if the movie had never been a possibility, plus other curious comments. I’m not absurdly optimistic that it will happen, But I’m absurdly sure nobody has been ‘unfair’ and I remain convinced that the possibilty and potential is still there until I’m officially told otherwise.
If people are wondering why I haven’t commented yet – it’s because I agree with Tanya and Steve on this one, and I can’t add anything to what they’ve already said.
>PS – all the back and forthing of the G&T crowd against Paul Gannon on this thread is typical of the mob behaviour that regulars feel urged to activate around people who don?t post here very often. Bullying *is* the word. I’ve not yet finished reading this page but I feel the need to comment on this. What utter bollocks! I don’t post very often on here, I’ve never felt bullied and I do not agree that the regular on this forum have a mob mentality. If you read many of the other threads contained on here you’ll find that they argue their opinions amongst themselves just as much as with other people. Or are they bullying each other? Just because the majority of people posting on here don’t agree with Paul on this subject doesn’t make it bullying. I think if you read through properly Karl doesn’t agree with the general opinion either. >I think Norm is right. That is all. Good for you. That’s your opinion, there, others do not agree. This is not bullying, it is life. Anyway, I’m going to continue reading now – I just felt compelled to respond to that.
>Just coming at this from a non G&T perspective. Sometimes it does ?appear? that the accusations of ganging-up happen. I think Karl is wrong. Anyone want to join me in kicking him up and down Romford high street? ;o)
Oi! Leave it out guvnor. I had said my piece and buggered off save going round in circles :P Just to clarify the “appear” wasn’t mean as dig to anyone. More that the G&T boys and girl are capable of presenting a very solid and united front (except when confronted by a harmless path and a few trees in the middle of the night of course). Not that this was is, was and ever will be a bad thing. It’s all down to identity and character. G&T does it thing and does so with a healthy dollop of profanity and in-jokery. It doesn’t bend over and expose it’s bishop to any old passer by but nor does it savagely attack anyone either. Well not unless they show some form of stupidity, ignorance, poor punctuation, bad grammar, questionable personal hygiene, scottishness… I’m making it up now. I meant merely G&T isn’t a bland faceless hippie cyber netiquette love-in. Except that it kind of is. So just forget I was ever here. Infact, no better still forget I was even born.
70 Comments so far, is that a record? I read it all with an open mind and a tissue in hand, no I wasn’t crying, although… No I got the germs yuck! Still I won’t add to this very intresting thread…..But if I did say anything it would be by James unless stated…But could you tell? My point exactly…
Whoever said there’s no chance of a full series I wouldn’t be so hasty. Am I the only one who DOESN’T want an hour special to wrap things up? I think it would be a mistake to try and come back after 9 years and wrap up the series so quickly, it’s long past the point where VIII can be concluded properly. It would be much better to do a 6-episode series of fresh adventures, not even referring to the events of VIII. Have the crew back in charge of the Dwarf and the setup is they’re heading back to Earth. New viewers can watch easily. Then at the second NEW series (aka X) they CAN wrap things up and it won’t seem like a brush-off. The time is right for the series to return, what with more sci-fi making it into primetime shows.
Another random thought is just how much Doug we’re missing out on. Not exclusively in terms of Dwarf but just generally. Does he really spend all his days chasing financing for the movie? It’d be such a shame to think such a great comedy writer isn’t, you know writing comedy.
>Oi! Leave it out guvnor. I had said my piece and buggered off save going round in circles :P I know :oP I was joking you fool! (maybe ;o) )
‘>Fact is if Red Dwarf the series ends on ?The Smeg it is? and an unconvincing Death with nice feet getting a swift knee in the happy sacks, whatever good work has gone before, it doesn?t deserve to be called a classic sitcom. Whoa there, matey. Only Fools and Horses is still (rightly) seen as a classic sitcom, despite the later shows being a shadow of the show?s former self. I think you?re being a bit unfair.’ I was referring to the cliffhanger, not the quality of the episode.
>I was referring to the cliffhanger, not the quality of the episode. And my point still stands, surely? How does a crap cliffhanger negate the whole 52 episodes, exactly?
I don’t think the cliffhanger is that bad. It just isn’t aided by the fact that show has effectively now stopped. Had it been an end of series cliffhanger back when we were getting a new series every year would we making anywhere near as much fuss? (No obviously because we wouldn’t have the Internet back then *ahem*) Allthought “negate the whole 52 episodes” about sixteen of them to a grand job of negating themselves from the classic tag.
Red Dwarf, taking the entire series as a whole, is a continuing story which has stopped at a frankly ridiculous position. The story is totally incomplete. There is so much emotional investment that has been built up over the run which has only led us to four of our beloved characters becoming stuck in a mirror universe and our other character kneeing Death in the balls. If you look at Series 1 and Series 2 especially and the voyage home drive of the show, you just see all these plot seeds waiting to spring forth into a conclusion, promises of future echoes and stasis leaks totally unfulfilled. The story needs an ending. The story cannot end with that mirror universe cliffhanger. It makes no sense in the overall story and screws up the entire journey. It’s clear that it isn’t supposed to be the end with ‘The Smeg it is’, there is a conclusion still to come. If it doesn’t, it’s a terrible shame.
Well ‘The Smeg it is’ always made me think that series 8 wasn’t actually meant to be the final series. Maybe I’m wrong, does anybody know?
I don’t buy the ‘continuing story’ argument, frankly. If it is, then it’s got huge plot holes everywhere and a insane sense of continuity. The plots used in the series have only really been used for Grant & Naylor’s conveience. If Doug really felt like it, he could start a new series with Lister joining the Space Corps, and we’d have no real right to complain. Cliffhangers have only been used for the conveience of the series; Doug wouldn’t necessarily have known if there would be a Series 9, and was planning a movie, so it made sense for him to keep the plotline open. Letting a crappy cliffhanger, put there as a placeholder, get in the way of the appreciation of the series seems bloody silly to me.
Numerous shows have finished with no actual end though havn’t they! On the other hand though, look at Blackadder, any series could have been the end, after all death is fairly final… Strangely perhaps, the viewer accepts the bloodline with little questioning and assumes a list of bastard offspring, that are never really explained and remain inter-connected through time.. Perhaps their hardcore fan base do question the continuity, but I bet that leads to a few headaches.. Dwarf has a parallel relationship with Sci-Fi that seems to have made a rod for its own back. Rob and Doug have spent considerable time aiming for continuity but clearly have left holes. I guess the Sci-Fi element in its fan base demands answers to fill these holes, but if Grant-Naylor had not bothered at all with continuity, would it A) have mattered or B) made it far less interesting? Either way, I would rather have the humour than a strict continuity, both would be nice off course, but a few holes dont bother me. I think it would be sad if Dwarf remained at the point it did forever, but I dont think it would be the first time a show has ended with an open end.. Any conclussion would be good, but I guess an end could come about in a number of formats.
> Numerous shows have finished with no actual end though havn?t they! Yes, but we aren’t talking about no end…the message at the end of Only the Good… seems to promise more Dwarf.
The thing about being a Dwarfer is you can ignore the continuity but you’ve invested in these characters. The ‘smeg it is’ feels a bit like being dumped when you’re still enjoying the relationship. Some will be happy with the time they had together others will feel there is unfinished business.
>The ?smeg it is? feels a bit like being dumped when you?re still enjoying the relationship. Some will be happy with the time they had together others will feel there is unfinished business. There may be an unfinished business but I can’t deny that the last couple of years of the relationship were pretty rocky. Not sure I’d appreciate an awkward reunion.
As someone who’s not keen on VII/VIII – I’d like to see an IX, if the Movie doesn’t happen. Because: I’ve got nothing to lose. If it’s great, then fantastic – it can end the series on a high. If it’s not great – well, I’ve not lost anything. It won’t affect my opinion of the first six series. If there’s the chance to end the series in a wonderful way, I’ll take it.
I think it’s a continuing story simply because the situation of the remaining characters remains basically the same. Lister remains three million years away from Earth and that does need resolved in some way. We need to know whether or not Lister gets home or have some closure. That was how the series began, that’s he mess he’s been in for all this time and an ending to that story deserves to be told. To say the Series 8 cliffhanger is an adequate ending to Lister’s story would be ridiculous. And it isn’t a cliffhanger if no more series of Red Dwarf are made. And we can’t leave our well-loved characters there, it’s just crap. Lister’s tale is unfinished, the whole series is unfinished and it’s a terrible shame.
> And it isn?t a cliffhanger if no more series of Red Dwarf are made. Well it is. Case in point The Italian Job ends with them literally hanging over a cliff edge. It just becomes a Cliffhanger ending, albeit and undesirable one. Something that’s just occured to me, when I first got into dwarf it was end of series II beginning of series III, as a kid I cared with a huge passion about the adventures of Lister and Rimmer BUT at no point did Dave getting back to earth feel like it was the big story arc. I’m sure it must have been mentioned here and there but for the most part it was just the adventurers of a ragamuffin bunch of desperadoes in space.
Yes but it would be nice for the series to end on its own terms. The ending doesn’t need to have them getting back to Earth. Something like the end of Back to Reality would do.
Or they could find out the Red Dwarf is the hallucination and the world they saw in Back to Reality is real…………nah, actually that would be crap.
