Let’s Talk About Dear Dave News Posted by Ian Symes on 1st November 2012, 18:54 It’s the bottle episode of the bottle series. Only half of it was shot in front of the audience, presumably because the bloody thing wasn’t written yet. Even those who were at the recording have very little concept of what they’re going to see on their telly tonight – Dave, 9:00pm, obviously. Please use this thread to deposit all your thoughts on the episode; we might well read some out on tonight’s LIVE Instant Reaction Dwarfcast. We have a full compliment of G&Ters, all gathered in one place, for the first and only time this series. The show starts at 10:00pm, and we’ll be posting the link here and on Twitter soon after Dear Dave finishes at 9:40pm. While you’re counting down the minutes to Dwarf time, why not reacquaint yourself with Kris Carter’s non-spoilery set report? And don’t go talking to any other Red Dwarf fansites. I heard what happened between you and Gazpacho Soup…
I hope Doug gives the people what they want and there’s a B plot where Rimmer reads his hologram instruction manual out loud for 15 minutes explaining how his light bee works.
Don’t know if I mentioned it at the time, or even since, but I actually managed to attend this recording… No, seriously, I’m looking forward to this. Looking forward to seeing what we didn’t see on the night, and after reading a preview which suggested that the episode isn’t very good (and being reassured, on two counts, that this isn’t so) , I’m very much hoping that it’s not going to be a case of “Oh dear, Dave”. But you know what I’m like. I’ll not be able to give a proper, balanced view on the episode until the weekend at the earliest.
the better then life novel explains some stuff about the light bee or have we all forgot about the novels already?
Well I’m still hoping the one guest is Chloe. I can’t find it now, but when I saw that pic of DJJ covering the monitor with both hands, my knee-jerk reaction was “That’s obviously Chloe on the monitor!” (hair, body type, etc) When no one else had this reaction, I figured I must be wrong. In fact, I don’t even remember which week of filming that pic was from – but I don’t think it’s from one of the four we’ve seen. (On the other hand, Kochanski would never wear orange.) Having managed to stay completely unspoilt this series, I shall now vacate this thread. Enjoy, folks.
Apologies if this has been posted/mentioned before elsewhere, but I’ve just noticed the ad on the back page of Lister’s mag in Dave’s gallery of photos from tonight’s ep. I’m loving those shots of the original model. Oh, nostalgia…
As with every episode this series I’m just totally up for it. I’ve been following the production of this series for three years and so I’m just really keen to see the thing realised. Looking forward to seeing Kryten’s speech at the start of the trailer I’ve watched to death bought to life!
Well Dave’s Facebook page is totally cocking up. They announced the episode would be on in 10 minutes at ten to 8, and now they’ve just released the ‘Dear Dave’ quiz…. brimming with spoilers from the episode.
Weakest half of Series X so far… Was beginning to think Cat had taken the evening off! Please get better!
If the rest of the episode is as funny as the first half then this will quickly become my favourite ep so far of X.
I had my doubts about the “love triangle” subplot, particularly after the badly performed machines in F&S, but it wasn’t nearly as bad as I thought it would be. Perhaps the whole hot drinks “‘e touched my logo” went on too long, I don’t know. However, other elements this episode have seemed spot on. The charades scene made me laugh for far too long, and made up for the lack of Cat in the first half, and Rimmer discussing moves is a hoot, particularly since this is the man with a well thumbed copy of “How To Pick Up Women By Hypnosis” Meanwhile, I’m quite surprised to discover a third plot occuring, in addition to Love Triangles and Surprising Mail, with a potential shift in the social structure a la “Balance of Power”
Initial thoughts, I liked the charades scene as cheesy as it was. Lister humping the dispenser was forced and the last line made me smile slightly. Apart from that an average episode, but not bad at all. Again I didn’t find the opening gag set up the episode entirely well. 6/10
i didnt laugh at this one as much as the others… it felt like a series 1 character based episode, which is nice. it wasnt rubbish. just… i dunno i cant put my finger on it.. maybe im too much looking forward to ‘The Beginning’
All in all that really felt a lot like series 1 and 2. Hopefully I’ll like it more after some rewatches :)
Well that was great. Did any one else notice some green screen work or were my eyes fucking about with me?
Well that was different. I must admit I thought the letter story would begin in the first half. didn’t really rate the vending machine plot. Liked the Cat and Lister scene but it reminded me of one from Nanarchy. The Rimmer was okay, enjoyed the fact he’d been the one writing the letters! though the toilet roll subplot dud seem to drag, though atleast it paid off/concluded the Lister letter plot. It may take another rewatch but can’t see what was offensive, unless it was the word Slag or the mention of the Finger wetter in the bank.
A solid episode. It was pretty funny for the most part but I didn’t find the plot as interesting as the other episodes. It was pretty obvious it would end up not being Lister’s but the episode was still good nonetheless.
Absolutely loved it. I feel like I keep repeating myself every week by saying all the episodes have at least been good. I adored the joke about Rimmer writing his own letter of recommendations – another example of Chris stealing a Lister-centric episode.
SFX review (3.5/5): BEHIND-THE-SCENES The whole vending machine subplot was a very late addition, and indeed wasn’t even filmed before a live studio audience, but recorded later and edited in. Some scenes were filmed even later than that, in a third reshoot that took place after the sets had been taken down. The whole Subuteo scene and following conversation, for example, were filmed in front of a green screen, though it’s near impossible to spot unless you know. The laughter track for all these scenes is “real” though – the extra footage was shown to a specially-invited audience. THE FINAL SCENE… Doug Naylor considered softening the final line, substituting “trollop” for “slag” but was convinced the word was justified when he saw the live audience reaction to the line. They laughed. A lot.
Well that was great. Did any one else notice some green screen work or were my eyes fucking about with me? I thought Kryten wheeling the bog roll past the fans was greenscreen.
All in all that really felt a lot like series 1 and 2. You say that like it’s a bad thing. If they hadn’t been so good when they were first broadcast I wouldn’t still be a fan now.
I thought Kryten wheeling the bog roll past the fans was greenscreen. I think some of the bunkroom scenes were green screen too. They were very well executed though.
im starting to think each episode has a different feel so at least one episode fits someones taste of the series. from the ones that like exploration (like me) to the character specific episodes.
I loved the series so far but this episode might be the weakest. Felt like some of the ideas were recycled again, felt series 1 or 2ish with the Rimmer and Lister scenes and hardly any Cat. Still laughed a few time but it felt a little stale. Maybe I’m just being a sour fool this week.
That first half I laughed almost continuously. Back to character comedy basics. Easily the best episode of the series thus far.
Wow. I think this had the most laughs of the whole series for me. I think my biggest laugh was the areola footballer gag. My only dissapointment was the lack of Cat but was still a really funny episode. I’m now debating with myself if its my favourite episode so far……I think it is :) Loved the bits with the vending machines too, much better executed than in Fathers and Suns. So many good points throughout, will have to rewatch again tomorrow.
also, was this meant to be the episode that had the offensive word? well if it was ‘slag’ then its a lot less offensive than what i was expecting it to be.
Took a while to get going but there was some great stuff. Rimmer walking behind was great. On paper not so good but the execution was fantastic. The fact he was out of focus and walked completely past initially just made it hilarious. And was “slag” the word or the alternative word? In the context of the scene it was fine with me. If Lister called someone one in a less extreme situation it wouldn’t be alright. Plus there are other words with the same implications that wouldn’t have sat so well with me. Opening scene was a bit weak but got better towards the end and I feel like a lot of the time Doug gets the characters to repeat something a lot as if it’s a joke when really it feels like it’s just padding out a scene. All in all I enjoyed it though. Am looking forward to watching it again tomorrow. And Danny yet again got a lot of great material (when he finally arrived).
TThoroughly enjoyed that. Couldn’t hear myself on the laughtrack, but nevermind. Enjoyed the majority of it – more beautiful model shots – that flyover was wonderful. That shot with Lister and Kryten in front of the fans was greenscreen, right? That looked odd. And Kryten needed some more makeup round the eyes in a couple of scenes. Could have done without seeing how badly Cat needed to wipe, and the end of the ‘don’t think about…’ Scene was a bit like the ‘three legged pitbull’ scene. But overall, a great episode. I’m picking out the nitpicky minor bad bits cos I’ll’ve forgotten about them the next time I watch. The dispenser stuff was great, and worth the wait. I’d probably place that ep 3rd overall so far.
That was brilliant. It had a real series 1/2 vibe, a simple story that relied on the usual cast and good writing. Definitely Rimmer’s strongest episode of the series yet, every joke was delivered perfectly and there was no overplaying like he has done in recent episodes. Cat stole the scenes where he had a line especially “finger wetting machine working overtime” or something like that. I haven’t laughed at a joke in Red Dwarf like that since… well i can’t even remember. The vending machine stuff was a bit weak throughout but the payoff was very funny. I’m sure the French vending machine will be an area of debate this week, i thought it was much more subtle than Taiwan Tony and worked ok. Rimmer’s plot about being demoted wasn’t fleshed out very well although it was a very good idea, i can’t actually remember if it was even wrapped up now i think about it. It was good to see that even Rimmer feels lonely and small things like the mail pod arriving perk him up too, i always feel that the series makes out Lister is the focus and the others are there to keep him sane where in reality they all help each other. The JMC computer stuff is still confusing for me, is it some kind of backup system for when Holly is down? And Kryten refers to it as “They”. I had low expectations going into this one due what i’d heard from production but i think it’s my second favourite after Trojan. I’m really glad Doug felt comfortable doing an episode that focused purely on the characters doing very little but using excellent dialogue and a simple idea to provide not only an emotional episode for Lister but a funny one too. That was Red Dwarf back to it’s best for me.
THE FINAL SCENE… Doug Naylor considered softening the final line, substituting “trollop” for “slag” but was convinced the word was justified when he saw the live audience reaction to the line. They laughed. A lot. He is absolutely right. She cheated on him and had a kid with someone else. She deserves it. Perhaps it is because I generally prefer the more Sci-Fi Dwarf but that was my least favourite of the series. The last 10-15 minutes picked the episode up in a big way though. Lots of big laughs in the last 10 minutes when the stories came to a head.
That Blue Midget belongs in the top ten most gorgeous Red Dwarf model shots of all time. SOMEONE WRITE AN ARTICLE. But seriously, it’s practically up there with Abe Lincoln and Moses Starbug leaving the lava and Starbug twatting itself through the cargo bay doors.
Rimmer said “Bollocks”, didn’t he? Is that worse than slag? Oh well… Seemed a bit odd as this series seems to be bringing in more and more “real world” obscenities – twat, slag, bollocks so far. The only others I can remember in previous series are Lister’s “buggered” in ME2 and Rimmer’s “buggering” in Cassandra. This is, of course, completely irrelevant and nitpicky… particularly as this has been my favourite episode so far…
So this week we get… a sequel to ‘Balance of Power’. Of sorts. (There’s bits of ‘Better Than Life’ and ‘Thanks for the Memory’ in there as well). This is an odd one to talk about as I’ve got used to judging Red Dwarf on the strength of the plots, and this episode didn’t really have one. This is a real throwback to the early character-and-gag-only episodes of the sort we haven’t had since ‘Marooned’. And I loved it. The gags were solid, and Craig’s performance in particular was excellent. The only duff bit was Dave ‘humping’ the vending machine. It seems virtually guaranteed to make fans think ‘this was better in Polymorph’. Plus Cat was barely in it, bar the charades scene, which didn’t quite work for me. I’d give it 7 out of 10 in terms of its place in this series, but in terms of matching up to what it set out to be (a throwback episode with little plot evoking the early years), it deserves 9/10.
Due to exceptionally poor planning, I managed to organise a night out on the premiere of the only sitcom episode I’ve ever seen recorded live. On my way home to watch it. , (Slightly drunk, which has to help, yeah?) . I have little expectations for this one, frankly, from what I’ve seen. Here’s hoping.
Threadbare plot and took a little while to get going but my, when it got going, it really got going. When the laughs came, they didn’t stop. Some absolute classic woofers there; finger wetting was a total belter. Loved the way the subplots all tied up within 2 minutes of each other. Proof enough once again that a bottle episode isn’t necessarily a cause for concern. Oh and 5 for 5 on Kochanski references for those keeping score (just me then) I can’t see The Beginning being anything but a complete success so I must say that series X is a triumph. Not a dud episode thus far, if we could remove Kerry Shale from the series then I don’t think I’d have one grumble. Very pleased.
Enjoyed it as per But how in the hell does someone think they can lift up a vending machine when lying on top of it?
First episode with genuine heart, imo. Cared about the characters, cared about the situation – experience was heightened accordingly. *Including* the comedy.
I cannot *believe* you have just used that theme song in the DwarfCast! I have just cried with laughter!
Den of Geek made an interesting point during thier review. seems to mark a fundamental shift in the premise of the series; no longer is it just four blokes(ish) bumming around the ship and trying to get home. It’s now four sort-of blokes bumming around a ship that can sometimes hold two of the crew accountable for their actions, depending on what sort of a mood it’s in. It’s not necessarily an unwelcome move, but it seems like an unnecessary one that would be best used sparingly in future stories. http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/red-dwarf/23276/red-dwarf-x-dear-dave-review
Oh and is the word ‘slag’ controversial these days? I find that hard to believe with what I hear each day and even on the Dwarfcast!
Probably the funniest episode so far, for me. Yes, the plot was thin but I’m fine with that as long as the laughs keep coming, which they did. My knee-jerk rankings: 1. Dear Dave – B+ 2. Trojan – B+ 3. Lemons – B+ 4. Entangled – B+ 5. Fathers and Suns – B
Dwarfcast: I don’t get the problem with the JMC Computer. It makes sense for long-haul vessels to have automated means of carrying out promotions etc. given the extreme difficulties with long-distance communications. Having an AI which can make determinations based upon pre-programmed criteria makes sense.
As a shit ‘Thanks For The Memory’, I rather enjoyed this bottle episode (no guest sets, unless it showed up in the minute I had to leave the bloody room grrrr). Rimmer’s story generated enough decent laughs to compensate for the IMO rather lame vending machine material (again a comedy foreign accent?). Lister bonking machine 23 was…mildly amusing, though I did like Rimmer’s walk into the back of shot. It’s something you just WILL to happen yet not too obviously done. No Cat for ages and ages wtf? I can imagine Danny sitting backstage, seething, hearing the laughs rolling in! I will put a huge green tick next to the charades scene. ‘Slag’……it works because it’s the last line of the episode. If you had Lister saying it ANYWHERE else it would feel too harsh.
I agree with John about there being too many plot threads in ‘Entangled’. Maybe one of those could have been pulled into ‘Dear Dave’ somehow.
I should have found the bit with Lister ‘humping’ the vending machine hilarious, but to me it played like a watered-down version of that famous scene from ‘Polymorph.’
Better than last weeks. Agreed with some posters saying it felt like series 2. I have to say I liked the Lister humping the vending machine alot. All the business with Cat needing a shit, well that was a tad crap.
Another thought….this episode, more than any other Doug solo effort so far, really could have done with a second writer. Just my opinion, but all these longer dialogue scenes would definitely have felt more bouncy with a fellow scribe to bounce off…
In reference to the term ‘Slag’. Lister was hoping the kids would be his as he would then feel like he’d done something meaningful with his life on Earth and therefore help lift his depression on the ship. Finding out the kid isn’t his makes him angry because it means she was cheating on him, which to be honest would sting like a bitch. Calling her a Slag seems perfectly in character to me.
Idea for alternative ending: LISTER: Smeg! “Sorry Dave, I was lieing. I’m not pregnant as I used to be a man” RIMMER: 2-1 Rimsy!
Idea for alternative ending: LISTER: Smeg! “Sorry Dave, I was lieing. I’m not pregnant as I used to be a man” RIMMER: 2-1 Rimsy! i like that! lol
Dwarfcast: Also, Rimmer’s confidence in his ‘moves’ could have resulted from his ‘success’ with Irene.
There was loads of old plots brought up in the charade scene, the nano virus, kryten being replaced and some more i’ve forgotten.
Lister humping the vending machine felt like an attempt to hit the woofer highs of Polymorph, one of the most clipped scenes in the shows past. Lister also used the word “slag” in that episode too, in a different context I guess. It’s hardly alien to his vernacular. Probably my least favourite episode of the series X, just seven days after my favourite. I know it’s been talked about, but it’s amazing how wildly opinions seem to differ on each episode. Each episode has been chicken salad to some and chicken shit to others.
Oh god, the constant fucking repetition gags. It’s like Doug is trying to fill a page up by having characters repeat what another character has just said, back to that character. Fucking tiresome.
One of my definite faves, thought Entangled last week was a bit ‘meh’ in terms of laughs (for me) Plenty of LOLs tonight
Something that’s just hit me…the chacters from 3 million years ago are called Hayley and Roy, like Coronation Street. And on Corrie Hayley used to be a man!!
Loved that. Certainly not Marrooned by very funny and fun, thankfully thousands of times better than Duct Soup my nemisis episode. Though the cat speach about “dont think” did bring things down a bit for me, got near to duct soup moment lameness, but it managed to climb back up a bit towards the end, having the audience duct soup never did. The rest of it I loved. Sure it’s got moments that remind of backwards, polymorph and many other episodes in terms of comedic moments. But i loved how long the game of charades goes on for, it’s just the fun of performance. I’m glad I read on here it was a bottle show, that set up me to enjoy this as the same way I would enjoy something like Victor Meldrew in the car. Fun stuff, cheap but brilliant.
Even though I didn’t love it, I did like the idea that the vending machine’s biggest dream was just to see around the corner.
So did the instant cast already discuss the french vending machine? Feel any better now we know all the vending machins in this series are mad with bad accents?
Yeah the just around the corner bit was brilliant. I loved the vending machine humping and Kryten thinking Lister had moved on. :-) Music was lacking a bit in this show wasnt it? Especially over one of the model shots.
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/525722_10151084267018204_676682186_n.jpg Can’t wait!!!!
Really enjoyed it once again. Good to have a more low-key ep this week after the jam packed Entangled. This did feel like a I/II ep, in a good way. Might be a cliche but it was nice to just spend time with the characters, who were all absolutely themselves. All the vending machine stuff was wonderfully silly, and the vending machine herself was actually quite a lovely, likeable character I thought. It didn’t get much of a reaction but one of my favourite lines was Lister’s “She was just nearer!” Well, one to go and I was in the audience for it, so I think I can now safely say that this series is better than I ever dared hope it would be. Roll on XI!
>I loved all the “human race” stuff being like an old girlfriend to get over. I liked that too. In Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers. Still haven’t watched it BTW. Fuck TFL.
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/525722_10151084267018204_676682186_n.jpg … is that a toupée?
I liked how rimmer was just an out of focus shadow in the walk past when lister was bonking the vending machine.
I don’t think they’d added any effects to the moon, it just looked like our moon dumped in the background.
i did like the charade stuff, it was like a ‘pick out all the nods to previous episodes stuff’ mixed in :) i did love all the nots to the very early series in this episode!
Hearing Rimmer say “M’laddo” again made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside xD And, no, I didn’t sit on a particularly blind hamster looking for a refuge from the cold~ :p Just missing the salute now :(
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/525722_10151084267018204_676682186_n.jpg Can’t wait!!!! So, we’ve got some very simulanty simulants next week. This does reinforce the theory that the Columbus III got pulled through time, hence the relatively normal Crawford.
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/525722_10151084267018204_676682186_n.jpg Can’t wait!!!! So, we’ve got some very simulanty simulants next week. This does reinforce the theory that the Columbus III got pulled through time, hence the relatively normal Crawford.
That looks like it could be Mac McDonald in that simulant costume. Have the VIII crew been assimilated and are looking for revenge?
Re: The JMC Computer. It makes some sort of sense to have a machine which makes judgements (such as promotions) being separate from Holly because Holly has a personality and is obviously designed to form some kind of relationship with the crew members. Having an impartial AI that you can’t argue with seems like it’d reduce conflicts.
In ‘Bodyswap’, Rimmer states he hadn’t eaten food for ‘3million and two years’ >_> Just thought I’d mention xD It *has* increased :p
That looks like it could be Mac McDonald in that simulant costume. Have the VIII crew been assimilated and are looking for revenge? Would that tie in with the fact that this is supposed to be a reworking of concepts from the movie? ie Homo Sapienoids?
Isnt the JMC computer a link off ship thought? Like a central computer of the JMC fleets? I never got that impression. It just seems like an AI that processes rules and regulations. Space distances are so vast that having a link between ships / planets / whatever wouldn’t be practical.
Would that tie in with the fact that this is supposed to be a reworking of concepts from the movie? ie Homo Sapienoids? I’m guessing the nano crew was picked off along similar lines of the movie description. Which would make Kochanski’s whereabouts worrying…
Doug on twitter: “crew discuss what happened at end of Series 8 in Show 6.” Also “RDX1 does depend on high DVD sales, if it doesn’t sell + BBCWW don’t get money back they may pass on RDX1.”
Okay, I really liked that one. It’s the closest to Series I-II the show’s come since the eighties. I don’t know if it was the funniest of the series, but the small-scale sitcom style is what I fell in love with back in Series I. There are definite flaws (the green screen is jarring), and its humor beats don’t reach the highs of previous episodes this series, but this is one of my favorites of the season, just for the nostalgia factor. This could very well have been a lost Series I episode (Kryten aside), and while I obviously wouldn’t hold it up to the classic level of quality, the episode gains so many points for its ambition to be a I-II-esque episode that it’s easy to forgive its flaws. The fact that it has a lot of solid laughs throughout is a bonus. This episode is a return (if temporary and for low-budget reasons) to the cozy sitcom Dwarf era that is my favorite and the heart of the show itself, and I’m elated to see a new, funny episode channeling that era. It’s uplifting to realize that while III-VI is seen as the iconic era of the show and the target style to strive for, the brilliant I-II era isn’t abandoned or forgotten. Of course, everything I just said could be way over-thinking it and the small-scale intimate-ness was motivated entirely out of budgetary necessity, but I like to think otherwise. Also, moves moving. And Death Worms. Good stuff. Actually that whole charade scene alone was almost worth the price of admission.
Christ! Rimmer’s a bit forward with the cat in this one isn’t he? “If I had a giant death worm right now, I’d shove it down your stupid smegging throat.” Hmmmmm…
And Death Worms. Good stuff. Actually that whole charade scene was almost worth the price of admission. The mail pod turned into a jacket?
Thought it was a great episode much meter than I was expecting after fathers and suns which is probably the only episode I haven’t enjoyed. They didn’t go OTT with the vending machines and the pacing of this episode was spot on a minor criticism of this series would be maybe to much going on in some episodes and feeling rushed. The beginning looks great too. Dinners crossed the DVD sales are good enough to warrant series XI. Also Stephen your alternate ending lol! Not that I didn’t like the actual one.
There was loads of old plots brought up in the charade scene, the nano virus, kryten being replaced and some more i’ve forgotten. Will have to make a list. :-) I liked all that.
That was excellent. The performances are absolutely SMACK ON now…. smack-the-fuck-on! Was funny, not hysterical and It didn’t matter. Fucking brilliant! Well satisfied!
lol just watching it again, if you listen to the first part of the charade thing, they mention so many past episode nods!! chameleonic lifeform… a virus…. sucked into a black hole…lol it deffo needed a second viewing for me, im loving it :)
Did anyone happen to notice if the letters had the correct address from Better Than Life written on them?
How the first 15 minutes of an episode of Red Dwarf III-VI worked. SCENE ONE : Comedy. Suddenly: Inciting incident featuring a really interesting idea. SCENE TWO : Plot explored. Comedy. SCENE THREE : Ditto. SCENE FOUR : Ditto. And so on and so forth. How the first 15 minutes of an episode of Red Dwarf X works: SCENE ONE : Fuck all happens. Sets up a running joke, clunkily. SCENE TWO : Unrelated to Scene One. Could feature the same characters as Scene One, but could be months later for all we know. SCENE THREE: Unrelated to Scene one or two. Sets up a subplot that probably won’t go anywhere particularly interesting. SCENE FOUR: Some fucking shit with a vending machine. SCENE FIVE : Plot A, a flimsy uninteresting thing with no mileage and not worthy of Red Dwarf, kicks in moments before a commercial break which reminds us we’re half way through that nothing has actually happened. I mean, DAMN. That was bad. I saw this filmed and assumed there was a plot hiding somewhere but…wow, that wasn’t Red Dwarf. That wasn’t even *trying* to be Red Dwarf. It amuses me that people are comparing Series X episodes to other series. This IS series X; a completely new entity. Nothing else. Yes, there’s a post pod but there the similarities to series II end. I get the feeling that Doug’s read a book called “How to write sitcoms” and now thinks the way to structure an episode is just to bung a load of underdeveoped shit into 30 minutes and hope that a story emerges. Saving grace; Cat’s charade scene. Urgh. Series VII is better than this. Sorry. But it is. At least stuff happened.
I have to admit I did feel a little underwhelmed on first viewing, but after having just watched it a second time, I’m liking it a lot more now. I suspect it may grow on me even more on the next watch.
She cheated on him and had a kid with someone else. She deserves it. …and that attitude is exactly my problem. Lister isn’t a cunt, he’s a nice guy, he wouldn’t say that.
Done. In more than one way. http://noiselesschatter.com/2012/11/01/review-red-dwarf-x-episode-5-dear-dave/ Lemons > Entangled > Fathers and Suns > Trojan > Dear Dave
Lister also used the word “slag” in that episode too, in a different context I guess. It’s hardly alien to his vernacular. Yes, you yourself point out that it was said in a completely different context and also he wasn’t himself in that episode.
I don’t really want to get in a lengthy discussion about this because I doubt I’m going to change anyone’s mind with this. We all react to things differently and we all have our own opinions and whatnot but here was my take upon the “slag” situation. Lister’s response to that first letter reminds me very much of Rimmer finding out his Dad has died in Better Than Life. “It’s like it just happened yesterday” or whatever Rimmer said in BTL. The letter reminds Lister of this girl, this relationship he had and all of a sudden all these emotions he used to have crop up. He mentioned the little things which told me that he didn’t remember her just as any old person but as someone he was intimate with and it sounded to me like he could really remember what it felt like to be with her. This isn’t in anyway contradictory to him currently being infatuated with Kochanski. You can still have feelings for people crop up even when you’re in a loving relationship (this isn’t my own experience speaking here). What’s more it seemed like a rather amiable break up caused by the prospect of a long distance relationship which was unlikely to work out so there were no bad feelings. There was trust. Now he finds out he could be a father. Not to himself, not to two boys in a parallel universe where the human race is also presumed extinct but to someone who could have actually had a happy, normal life and they could have had kids as well. This also brings up a load of emotions. He communicates just how much it’d mean to him before opening the second letter. It’d give his life meaning and a connection to the past, feeling like he’d contributed. Like he’d made a mark. Just before our final punchline, despite what The Cat and the letter has inferred, I thought it was made pretty clear that Lister still didn’t really want to believe she’d cheated on him as evidenced by him still singing her praises. He still wanted to believe he had that trust but then he felt truly let down and understandably angry when he read that letter. So the line, in that context, sits fine with me for the character. I mean, the guy does swear a lot and I don’t think it’s an unusual response to suddenly finding out a partner is having an affair or getting off with people when your back is turned. I’ve used equivalents to describe men who have cheated on female friends of mine.
Am I the only one that thinks that perhaps when Mr. Naylor sat down to plan out the six episodes in Series X, he said to himself “How about I do a Series I-inspired episode, then a II-inspired episode, etc., up to VI?” Because it’s starting to look like each individual episode matches up to one of the first six series, albeit not in that order. Here’s my theory: 1) Trojan –> Series IV: Non-hostile derelict provoking emotional development a la Camille/DNA. Also a dash of Dimension Jump with the Rimmer resentment. And throw in a simulant battle at the end for good measure (Justice). 2) Fathers & Suns –> Series II: Echoes of Queeg & Thanks for the Memory in the form of Pree and the video scene. Small scale with a dash of tension/adventure. 3) Lemons –> Series III: A downright run and silly adventure/romp involving time travel a la Backwards/Timeslides. Plus that beginning scene is right out of Polymorph. 4) Entangled –> Series VI: The BEGGS and Blue Midget/E.R.R.A. station scenes are pure sixth-series style. 5) Dear Dave –> Series I: Small-scale sitcom, intimate character pieces, zero locations/traveling. 6) The Beginning –> ??? Presumably Series V? We haven’t really gotten into “dark” territory yet, but it looks like we might here with the Simulants. That’s not to say that all the episodes this series don’t have callbacks to multiple series, or that Series X doesn’t have its own series style which carries throughout. But I like this theory. If it’s true, I don’t know what it’s implications are except that I’m a massive nerd who extremely over-analyzes everything.
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/525722_10151084267018204_676682186_n.jpg Can’t wait!!!! That hair … is that who I *think* it might be? Maybe this is the wrong post to discuss this in. (Picture my eyebrows up in my hairline at the possibilities.)
I really enjoyed that one. Nice and low-key, like a Steptoe and Son episode where not much happens. To be honest, it could have had no jokes and I’d have liked it just as much because it had so much heart in it.
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/525722_10151084267018204_676682186_n.jpg Can’t wait!!!! That hair … is that who I *think* it might be? Maybe this is the wrong post to discuss this in. (Picture my eyebrows up in my hairline at the possibilities.) That hair is very Ace. I enjoyed this episode. I still dislike the exposition dumps given by Kryten about the “JMC Computer” and think it would be vastly improved by having Holly (and just explain it as since rebooting she can’t help but follow space corps directives). In general though a very Series I/II feeling episode, which is always a good thing. Shame it was so rushed, with a bit more time to polish things up this could have been a classic. As it is though I am very happy with it! I’m half suspecting that the JMC onboard computer doesn’t actually exist, and it’s just Kryten winding Rimmer up.
SFX poll at 3:30am Smeggin’ Brilliant 26.09% Smeggin’ Good 52.17% Smeggin’ Average 9.78% Smeggin’ Poor 8.7% Smeggin’ Terrible 3%
@Renegade Rob this is what i kinda posted earlier too :) how each episode vibes a particular series or fan taste. Some liking adventure episodes, some liking on board character specific episodes.
Just watched it for a second time. For some reason the charades scene semi reminded me of the carbug landing/parking scene from BTE. It seemed too loose and “not written” or ad-libbed but had the punchline at the end. Im not warming to krytens scenes in this because it seems very out of character.
Thanks for those statistics. It really adds something to the whole episode to know what complete strangers thought. I think this one was good, as far as bottle episodes go. Not bad for something that was written at the last minute. I may touch it up later, but for now, I’m really pleased with it. So far, the only episode that I haven’t gone back to watch a second time is ‘Trojan’.
Trojan – 7/10 Fathers & Suns – 3/10 Lemons – 5/10 Entangled – 4/10 Dear Dave – 3/10 If Doug is really struggling to think of stories (built on interesting concepts) that sustain 30 minutes, then it’s time to end the show, frankly. So much of this series has been about pointless unfunny subplots detracting from any focus. I don’t even see a I or II vibe in Dear Dave and to compare it to the peerless Thanks for the Memory? That’s the funniest thing about this episode.
I disagree. If people are enjoying it but you’re not, why don’t you just not watch it and the people who do find it funny carry on? I don’t see why the show should end just because not everyone is satisfied with it.
Ah, fandom. We never agree on nuffink. Didn’t expect this series to be any different. Each to their own. Pete – I usually agree with you, but this time I’m on a totally different page. I absolutely loved this episode. Very surprised as last week’s preview left me cold. But on the night, more laughs just in the first half than series 7, 8 and BTE combined. I enjoyed the lack of substantial plot…just gives more room for character stuff and I thought everyone was on top of their game in this episode. Even Chris Barrie who I reckon has been the weak link of the series thus far. He reigned it back a bit, felt like he had more space to give a performance that – whislt not exactly nuanced – felt a lot more like genuine Rimsy. The charades scene was probably my favourite. Surprised it didn’t get more of a reaction from the audience. “Death worm? Where are you getting death worm from?!” My ranking of the series so far: Dear Dave: 8.5 Lemons: 8 Trojan: 8 Fathers and Suns: 7.5 Entangled: 6
To expand on the “charades” comment, since I mentioned last night liking the line to general bafflement from the Dwarfcasters: I thought it was funny because it was one of those instances where there are two perfectly valid pronunciations that different people use (“charAYdes” vs “charAHdes”). Rimmer, Lister and Kryten all say “charAHdes”, so were baffled by Cat saying “charAYdes” until Kryten pointed out that he meant “charAHdes”, at which point they “understood”. It wasn’t Doug saying one pronunciation was right or wrong, it was a gag about how because some people say it one way, they can’t comprehend it the other way. It’s like the “scones” vs “scoh-nes” argument. Or “porsche” in Friends. Or like how Ian pronounces “toothbrush”.
>The charades scene was probably my favourite. Surprised it didn’t get more of a reaction from the audience. It was a pre-record. Probably would have got a slightly bigger reaction if the audience had seen it first-hand. >If people are enjoying it but you’re not, why don’t you just not watch it and the people who do find it funny carry on? The day the number of “not good” Red Dwarf episodes exceeds the number of great Red Dwarf episodes, I promise I’ll stop watching. I did the same with The Simpsons.
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/525722_10151084267018204_676682186_n.jpg Can’t wait!!!! That hair … is that who I *think* it might be? Maybe this is the wrong post to discuss this in. (Picture my eyebrows up in my hairline at the possibilities.) That hair is very Ace. I enjoyed this episode. I still dislike the exposition dumps given by Kryten about the “JMC Computer” and think it would be vastly improved by having Holly (and just explain it as since rebooting she can’t help but follow space corps directives). In general though a very Series I/II feeling episode, which is always a good thing. Shame it was so rushed, with a bit more time to polish things up this could have been a classic. As it is though I am very happy with it! I’m half suspecting that the JMC onboard computer doesn’t actually exist, and it’s just Kryten winding Rimmer up. With Lister’s support, of course. Always furthering his counter-programming, that one. :-D Glad I’m not the only one who thought Ace; I don’t feel so silly for my initial response now.
>> Or like how Ian pronounces “toothbrush” > Please don’t say it’s ‘tuth’! You can’t handle the tuth. But yes.
Hey, I can’t believe nobody’s mentioned Chris B’s ‘Tudor-style’ of lady pick ups! Could anyone else hear a bit of his famous ‘Kenneth Williams’ impersonation creeping in? A truly classic moment from the flared nostriled one in my opionion…
Just rewatched it. I only actually noticed one of the greenscreen scenes when I was watching last night, and watching just now…my God, there were loads! We must have only seen about seven minutes of what aired of that episode recorded on the night! Also noticed that the fans have a belt drive. Not noticed that before. Still think it’s funny. As a lot of others have said, the lack of a single coherent plot doesn’t really bother me, because there are a lot of laughs.
Just rewatched it. I only actually noticed one of the greenscreen scenes when I was watching last night, and watching just now…my God, there were loads! We must have only seen about seven minutes of what aired of that episode recorded on the night! Also noticed that the fans have a belt drive. Not noticed that before.Still think it’s funny. As a lot of others have said, the lack of a single coherent plot doesn’t really bother me, because there are a lot of laughs. Precisely…and isn’t that what the whole point is? To make us laugh? Kryten’s line when Lister’s fat arse was jiggling up and down on that dispensing machine was fuckin awesome!
To expand on the “charades” comment, since I mentioned last night liking the line to general bafflement from the Dwarfcasters: I thought it was funny because it was one of those instances where there are two perfectly valid pronunciations that different people use (“charAYdes” vs “charAHdes”). Rimmer, Lister and Kryten all say “charAHdes”, so were baffled by Cat saying “charAYdes” until Kryten pointed out that he meant “charAHdes”, at which point they “understood”. It wasn’t Doug saying one pronunciation was right or wrong, it was a gag about how because some people say it one way, they can’t comprehend it the other way. It’s like the “scones” vs “scoh-nes” argument. Or “porsche” in Friends. Or like how Ian pronounces “toothbrush”. It’s a very good point that. But can you mime it?
Still think it’s funny. As a lot of others have said, the lack of a single coherent plot doesn’t really bother me, because there are a lot of laughs. Amen.
> >If people are enjoying it but you’re not, why don’t you just not watch it and the people who do find it funny carry on? The day the number of “not good” Red Dwarf episodes exceeds the number of great Red Dwarf episodes, I promise I’ll stop watching. I did the same with The Simpsons. What are you up to at the moment 28 ish vs 33, will you be gone by the end of next series do you think?
Still think it’s funny. As a lot of others have said, the lack of a single coherent plot doesn’t really bother me, because there are a lot of laughs. Seemed from the instant reaction cast that a plot as simple as marooned satisfied, but a few simple subplots didnt satisfy some in the same way, for what ever reason. Which is sort of saying if the whole episode had felt about the letter wait, people who liked marooned might have liked this. But subplots however simple distracted from that. It may also be for some that the green screen flatness of some scenes made the thing a bit less real and so they didnt care as much about the characters concerns. I didnt noticed the green screen thing at all until it was pointed out. None of that stuff bothered me at all. I found it in the tradition of Hancocks Sunday Afternoon. A day on ship, when hardly anything was happening to the crew. And I got a feel that days like this are the majority for them, like the opening of most other types of episodes. Loved it.
I quite liked this series of smaller adventures. Unlike Only the Good…, which also felt like a series of sketches, this one kept coming and going from these small stories preventing it from feeling “then this happened and this happened and this happened” like Only the Good… did. Even if they were fairly minor, uneventful plots the fact they ran throughout the episode, constantly switching between them, made it worth sticking with the episode more than I might with Only the Good… How often I’ll revisit this episode remains to be seen though. I enjoyed it but I think it’s the plots that make the best of Dwarf so infinitely rewatchable. Still, some nice stuff. And I only noticed the green screen on first broadcast as far as I noticed that a couple of scenes looked a bit odd (which I later figured was the lighting of characters not matching the green screened set) and the fact that Robert’s make up changed drastically halfway through a scene. That was through an internet stream. Watching the iTunes it’s far more noticeable but I have to say, I think it’s still pretty well done. Funny that with this bottle episode not only did they not get to build new sets but they didn’t have access to the main ones for half of it! In other news I watched Community’s “Cooperative Calligraphy” yesterday afternoon. That’s one hell of a bottle episode right there.
Has anyone got a screengrab of that shot of Blue Midget swooping past the camera at the end? That was freakin’ sweet!
I liked this episode…..in terms of writing but I feel like maybe it showed a weakness in Doug Naylor’s direction which I has praised in previous episodes. It seems to me that his an excellent dramatic director but it felt to me that his not a great comedic director, it feels like the visual gags here because something in the way they were shot weren’t as funny as they should have been. It’s still the second best episode of series X so far and I still think it was pretty strong other then that.
I’m loving the ‘Duckman’ avatar Slainmonkey. Used to love that show! I still do (obviously), I have the whole show on DVD
Hey, I can’t believe nobody’s mentioned Chris B’s ‘Tudor-style’ of lady pick ups! Could anyone else hear a bit of his famous ‘Kenneth Williams’ impersonation creeping in? A truly classic moment from the flared nostriled one in my opionion… I’m surprised that Rimmer would know what “Jacobian” is when he hasn’t a clue what areolas are, and he hates Shakespeare.
To expand on the “charades” comment, since I mentioned last night liking the line to general bafflement from the Dwarfcasters: I thought it was funny because it was one of those instances where there are two perfectly valid pronunciations that different people use (“charAYdes” vs “charAHdes”). Rimmer, Lister and Kryten all say “charAHdes”, so were baffled by Cat saying “charAYdes” until Kryten pointed out that he meant “charAHdes”, at which point they “understood”. It wasn’t Doug saying one pronunciation was right or wrong, it was a gag about how because some people say it one way, they can’t comprehend it the other way. It’s like the “scones” vs “scoh-nes” argument. Or “porsche” in Friends. Or like how Ian pronounces “toothbrush”. I understand what the joke is supposed to be. You still understand what Cat means when he says CharAYdes though. If someone said TomAYto you’d know what they meant even if you usually said TomAHto. The bafflement comes from the fact that they’d clearly know what he meant, not that we didn’t understand the joke. I actually thought that Lister and Rimmer incredulously saying “CharAYdes?!” was frustration at Cat making them play a game rather than just giving them the information, and Kryten misunderstood and thought they didn’t know what Charades was. Either way, it’s just odd.
Hey, I can’t believe nobody’s mentioned Chris B’s ‘Tudor-style’ of lady pick ups! Could anyone else hear a bit of his famous ‘Kenneth Williams’ impersonation creeping in? A truly classic moment from the flared nostriled one in my opionion… I mentioned it in the Dwarfcast ;-) I’m surprised that Rimmer would know what “Jacobian” is when he hasn’t a clue what areolas are, and he hates Shakespeare. Yeah, it’s not like he’s a history buff or anything!
I understand what the joke is supposed to be. You still understand what Cat means when he says CharAYdes though. If someone said TomAYto you’d know what they meant even if you usually said TomAHto. The bafflement comes from the fact that they’d clearly know what he meant, not that we didn’t understand the joke. I know, but I think that is actually the joke: you’d EXPECT them to understand it either way, but they inexplicably don’t. Hilarity ensues, etc. Evidently it’s not a joke that works for everyone, but it did make me chuckle.
I hate this “if you’re not enjoying it, stop watching it” tot. As if that’s an option for anyone who’s so emotionally invested in the show.
Lister also used the word “slag” in that episode too, in a different context I guess. It’s hardly alien to his vernacular. Yes, you yourself point out that it was said in a completely different context and also he wasn’t himself in that episode. He was ‘himself minus his fear’. I don’t find it that out of character that he would use the word as ‘himself plus the anger/betrayal/disappointment he’s just felt’, especially as it was said in dismissal of the letter and the situation which had been brought to a close. She cheated on him and that’s now what he’ll remember her for. It’s not like he said ‘Fuck this bitch, I’m off to hunt her down and kick her ovaries in’. What I would find out of character is if he said “Good for her.” or “Ah well. Nevermind.” “Slag”? Not really. I did think you saying ‘Lister wouldn’t say the word ‘slag’ because he’s not a cunt.’ was pretty funny though. Hey ho (pip and dandy). Anyhow, I loved that episode. Really wasn’t expecting much from the trailer but as others have said, it had the conversational Series I/II feel, lots of good gags and had me smiling throughout. Possibly my favourite of series X so far actually.
Really chuffed to hear one of my posts read out on the podcast again last night :-) “Twice in one lifetime? When you’re hot, you’re hot!” Also enjoyed seeing Lister’s own personal Giant Death Worm clearly visible in that red boiler suit. In fact I’m not sure which of the above got me more excited.
I don’t have too much of a problem with the slag thing, but there is *clearly* a difference between referring to a group of men as “slags” (the plural is important) and calling an individual woman a slag. Like I say, personally I’m not overly concerned with it, but the fact that Lister used the same word in a completely different context in a previous episode is irrelevant. Denotation vs connotation.
>I hate this “if you’re not enjoying it, stop watching it” tot. As if that’s an option for anyone who’s so emotionally invested in the show. I hate this “if I’m not enjoying it, they should stop making the show”.
I have to reiterate my disdain for them showing classic Dwarf straight after the new episodes. Like I said before, in my mind (and I’m sure in the mind of others, also) I automatically draw comparisons between the episodes, and that’s not always for the best.
I don’t have too much of a problem with the slag thing, but there is *clearly* a difference between referring to a group of men as “slags” (the plural is important) and calling an individual woman a slag. Like I say, personally I’m not overly concerned with it, but the fact that Lister used the same word in a completely different context in a previous episode is irrelevant. Denotation vs connotation. True enough – all it’s previous use really shows is that the word is still used and that it’s in Lister’s vocabulary to some degree. I guess we could go all the way back to Parallel Universe and Parallel Lister’s views on contraception being the man’s responsibility (so presumably Dave Lister has/had the parallel belief about contraception and women in his universe). That doesn’t seem like a terribly enlightened view of pregnancy and sexual morality either. Lister’s got plenty of unenviable traits and plenty of positive ones too – of course that’s what makes him interesting and human. I don’t think he’d be virtuous beyond a moment’s pissed-offedness at having being deceived, cheated on and lied to, then subsequently having had his hopes of fatherhood dashed.
Lister also used the word “slag” in that episode too, in a different context I guess. It’s hardly alien to his vernacular. Yes, you yourself point out that it was said in a completely different context and also he wasn’t himself in that episode. He was ‘himself minus his fear’. I don’t find it that out of character that he would use the word as ‘himself plus the anger/betrayal/disappointment he’s just felt’, especially as it was said in dismissal of the letter and the situation which had been brought to a close. She cheated on him and that’s now what he’ll remember her for. It’s not like he said ‘Fuck this bitch, I’m off to hunt her down and kick her ovaries in’. What I would find out of character is if he said “Good for her.” or “Ah well. Nevermind.” “Slag”? Not really. I did think you saying ‘Lister wouldn’t say the word ‘slag’ because he’s not a cunt.’ was pretty funny though. Hey ho (pip and dandy). While I know what “slag” means, it doesn’t pack an emotional punch for me; I’m American and I can count on one hand I’ve heard it used as an insult in 40 years. Whereas, you all toss around “cunt” but if you were to call me that to my face in the context Lister used it, I’d slug you. (Not slag. Slug. LOL) (Although to be fair, Lister had reason to be angry, at least momentarily, so I kind of overlooked it altogether. Not only did the woman lie to him, she got his hopes up. Why DID she write to him before getting the DNA results? Works for a fiction plot, I suppose, but isn’t something I would do as a woman IRL. Just a thought …)
She cheated on him and had a kid with someone else. She deserves it. …and that attitude is exactly my problem. Lister isn’t a cunt, he’s a nice guy, he wouldn’t say that. I remember you saying that there was an alternate take of this scene where a different word was used. Are you allowed to tell us now what that word was?
She cheated on him and had a kid with someone else. She deserves it. …and that attitude is exactly my problem. Lister isn’t a cunt, he’s a nice guy, he wouldn’t say that. I remember you saying that there was an alternate take of this scene where a different word was used. Are you allowed to tell us now what that word was? Trollop.
There’s no need for that, Claire was only asking! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86RbO3kbHWM&w=560&h=315
There’s no need for that, Claire was only asking! Lol! ;) Thanks for responding, Alex. Interesting; they both seem about equally insulting to me.
‘Trollop’ just doesn’t have that punch, I suppose. ‘Slag’ puts you in mind of that film Ed Bye made years ago, hence why it seems more offensive.
I’ll go into detail on this when we record The Garbage Podcast on Sunday, but yes, I think that Trollop should be equally as insulting as slag. Like Ian though, I don’t have a major issue with it here and I don’t think it’s really that out of character. Plus of course I think slag fits the beat of the line better than trollop, especially when you are ending the episode on it. It needs to hit quickly and trollop makes the sentence too long for me.
I hate this “if you’re not enjoying it, stop watching it” tot. As if that’s an option for anyone who’s so emotionally invested in the show. Your right, Im sorry I over reacted. Just seemed Pete might be hapier not picturing how good his times with Dwarf used to be before she changed channles, got old and stopped hanging around with that Rob fellow. Now he has to see her like this. I thought there might be other shows out there he would find more enjoyable. But Im wrong to suggest he shouldnt see her. Just maybe acess at weekend repeats.
I think the use of the word Slag was made funnier by the inclusion of the word ‘absolute’. Dunno why.
Let’s face it, Red Dwarf has had jokes and insults aimed at everyone for every reason, including men, women and dead relatives. Also, pretty much every kind of sexual behaviour. Rimmer’s lack of experience has been mocked, Lister’s desperation for sex has been mocked, Cat’s willingness to have sex with anything – and more notably, Rimmer’s mother’s promiscuity has been the subject of quite venomous derision from Rimmer himself. Also Rimmer has been called all sorts of things for his cowardice, Lister for his slobbiness, the list goes on. I don’t see how the slag comment differs, or why using a moderate insult against this woman (who after all, cheated on him and lied to him repeatedly) in reference to her behaviour is somehow beyond the pale.
> Something that’s just hit me…the chacters from 3 million years ago are called Hayley and Roy, like Coronation Street. And on Corrie Hayley used to be a man!! That is brilliant! Must be deliberate, mustn’t it?
> Also enjoyed seeing Lister’s own personal Giant Death Worm clearly visible in that red boiler suit. Cannot believe that…. I’m surprised they didn’t play it for a laugh (not physically play it, as such…) Anyway, Cozi, you so shouldn’t have been looking there, that’s naughty!
I hate this “if I’m not enjoying it, they should stop making the show”. Shame that’s not what I wrote, huh? . I said if Doug is struggling for plots that sustain 30 minutes, then it’s time to end the show. I get the impression he’s struggled this series, you obviously don’t. So…if you don’t think he’s been struggling this series, then me giving a solution to a problem you don’t believe exists should be meaningless to you. Welcome to the Internet.
A bit hit and miss this one. Like many of the episodes in series X, there wasn’t one strong central plot like a lot of the classic episodes (watching Psirens and Legion afterward cemented that fact for me) and once again a lot of old ground was revisited. There were some very funny moments (like lister on top of the vending machine) and I found Dear Dave overall a reasonably enjoyable experience although I can’t help but feel the episode was called that as a plug for the “Dave” channel. All in all, this is probably one I won’t watch that much, but I don’t hate it at all.
I really don’t feel like Doug has struggled for ideas this series. Rather that he has had too many and rather than develop a few of them to the extent they should have been developed to, he’s just chucked them all in which is a shame really. I don’t think Doug is unable to develop these ideas at all, one of my favourite things about Lemons was that his research into certain aspects was reflected in some of the dialogue (Kryten/Rimmer), but that he wants to get all these ideas in and as a result doesn’t develop some of the more interesting ones to a greater extent. Not to say I haven’t thoroughly enjoyed this series. I really have. I do agree that some episodes feel like they are a rewrite or two or another opinion away from true greatness though. However, Series X hasn’t disappointed me in any way. It’s still better than I expected and my favourite Dwarf since VI which is no bad thing.
On second viewing this episode suffers a lot more because you try not to notice the OBVIOUS production problems like the painful use of green screen and it’s not dropped to being my second least favourite……which is a shame because there were a lot of really funny jokes this episode and I like the idea of how vending machines get lonely and starved for attention as well. I loved how just seeing around the corner was something magical for her having been fixed in one location for 3 million years……but the problems just kinda make me feel at odds watching it.
To drag up the whole “slag” debate again – for me it’s an acceptable end to the episode as it is preceded by his heartfelt speech about how she was “a wonderful woman” so would make a “wonderful mum”. I do feel the episode should have ended on “slag” though. Not really any need for the reaction shot of the other 3 (they needed to be bigger to justify them) and definitely no need for Lister’s finger-wetting machine mime, which came across as a bit nasty.
Ratings: “After falling under a million viewers last week, Red Dwarf returned to form by commanding 1.05m (4.9%) for Dave”
To drag up the whole “slag” debate again – for me it’s an acceptable end to the episode as it is preceded by his heartfelt speech about how she was “a wonderful woman” so would make a “wonderful mum”. I do feel the episode should have ended on “slag” though. Not really any need for the reaction shot of the other 3 (they needed to be bigger to justify them) and definitely no need for Lister’s finger-wetting machine mime, which came across as a bit nasty. I’m trying to figure out why Rimmer looked so relieved. He thinks he won’t have to listen to Lister mope about someone else lost, maybe. I wonder if he’s keeping a running count of KOCHANSKI too. LOL.
Why shouldn’t Lister call her a slag? He’s a hopeless romantic. He felt betrayed. He’s despondent about losing his race. The one hope he had for a continued bloodline (aside from the twins) was taken away. Slag isn’t even that offensive.
Lister also used the word “slag” in that episode too, in a different context I guess. It’s hardly alien to his vernacular. Yes, you yourself point out that it was said in a completely different context and also he wasn’t himself in that episode. He was ‘himself minus his fear’. I don’t find it that out of character that he would use the word as ‘himself plus the anger/betrayal/disappointment he’s just felt’, especially as it was said in dismissal of the letter and the situation which had been brought to a close. She cheated on him and that’s now what he’ll remember her for. It’s not like he said ‘Fuck this bitch, I’m off to hunt her down and kick her ovaries in’. What I would find out of character is if he said “Good for her.” or “Ah well. Nevermind.” “Slag”? Not really. I did think you saying ‘Lister wouldn’t say the word ‘slag’ because he’s not a cunt.’ was pretty funny though. Hey ho (pip and dandy). While I know what “slag” means, it doesn’t pack an emotional punch for me; I’m American and I can count on one hand I’ve heard it used as an insult in 40 years. Whereas, you all toss around “cunt” but if you were to call me that to my face in the context Lister used it, I’d slug you. (Not slag. Slug. LOL) (Although to be fair, Lister had reason to be angry, at least momentarily, so I kind of overlooked it altogether. Not only did the woman lie to him, she got his hopes up. Why DID she write to him before getting the DNA results? Works for a fiction plot, I suppose, but isn’t something I would do as a woman IRL. Just a thought …) She’s a plot device. If her behaviour is causing this much debate and consternation, perhaps she’s not a very good plot device. I can’t say that I’m really impressed at the men on this thread who think ‘slag’ is a suitable word for someone that you’re meant to care for. As I said in my review, although I wasn’t really offended at the time, I can’t defend it, on a character, plot or universe level. Why did Doug even have it as an option?
To drag up the whole “slag” debate again – for me it’s an acceptable end to the episode as it is preceded by his heartfelt speech about how she was “a wonderful woman” so would make a “wonderful mum”. I do feel the episode should have ended on “slag” though. Not really any need for the reaction shot of the other 3 (they needed to be bigger to justify them) and definitely no need for Lister’s finger-wetting machine mime, which came across as a bit nasty. Oddly, I preferred that to ‘slag’! Lister making a joke to cheer himself up would have made more sense than throwing insults around.
>> Or like how Ian pronounces “toothbrush” > Please don’t say it’s ‘tuth’! You can’t handle the tuth. But yes. I do that too. Seems to be a West Midlands/Country thing.
…I think that Trollop should be equally as insulting as slag. It’s not though is it? Whether you think it should be or not is irrelevant, ‘slag’ is far more insulting. …I don’t have a major issue with it here and I don’t think it’s really that out of character. We’ll have to agree to disagree here. Plus of course I think slag fits the beat of the line better than trollop, especially when you are ending the episode on it. It needs to hit quickly and trollop makes the sentence too long for me. If that’s your reasoning then ‘cunt’ would have done the job just as well. I can’t say that I’m really impressed at the men on this thread who think ‘slag’ is a suitable word for someone that you’re meant to care for This. *stern face*
Another magnificent episode! LOL at French vending machine! Simple amusement for simple minds. I was amused. Imagine 3 million years of child support payments!
Just watched the episode again, and I still think it’s okay. I just think they missed out on some great opportunities with the mail concept. I think the episode should’ve opened with Cat’s charade scene, and then the first half should’ve revolved around Lister and Rimmer going through the mail (the drive room scene could’ve been moved in here). I also would’ve replaced Rimmer’s original storyline and have him receive a personal letter as well – from his mother. I think that could’ve brought out some great character stuff. Rimmer is afraid to open the letter because this could be the last he ever hears from his mother if there are no more post pods, and since the last one he got was her informing him of his father’s death, he wonders if she might’ve changed in the years between, so this unopened letter has loads of potential in it. I also think Lister could’ve gotten other letters from old friends and band-mates. Might’ve been good for a laugh. Could’ve been a stage play, actually…
Yep I fully expected them to spend half the episode just talking whilst sorting through mail. Can’t believe the paternity storyline starts off over half way through the episode!
I’m still not sure what to think of ‘Dear Dave.’ I found the second half to be stronger, generally. I suppose it put me in mind of ‘Balance of Power’; a lot of good gags but little in the way of plot. With episode 5 of a 6 episode series, though, it’s always going to be a bit challenging if you’re looking forward to the finale.
Yeah, but Confidence and Paranoia, Queeg, Timeslides, Dimension Jump, Demons & Angels and Rimmerworld were all brilliant…
Trollop sounds like something a posh twat would say…… Trollop is something Rita from Coronation Street would say.
Yeah, but Confidence and Paranoia, Queeg, Timeslides, Dimension Jump, Demons & Angels and Rimmerworld were all brilliant… They may have been brilliant, but some of those episodes listed could still arguably be considered the weakest of their respective series. DJ was obviously never intended to go out 5th, as we know. Queeg is superb and one of the strongest II eps. But Timeslides, D&A and Rimmerworld, for me, are probably the ‘least good’ episodes of III, V and VI. Confidence and Paranoia (depending on my mood) might be my least fave of I (toss-up between it and Waiting for God). Episode 5 is the ‘burn off’ slot. Having said that, as I gather X was written and recorded in broadcast order, that must surely be a coincidence because I can’t imagine Doug thinking to himself “episode 5 ey? No pressure here, this’ll do”
“Yeah, but Confidence and Paranoia, Queeg, Timeslides, Dimension Jump, Demons & Angels and Rimmerworld were all brilliant…” Yes, you’re right there. Maybe I generalised the point a bit much. I watched Dear Dave in an irritable mood, so maybe that’s it. I wonder if I’d have felt the same about (for example) Demons & Angels and Rimmerworld if I watched them on original transmission, knowing that Back to Reality and Out of Time were around the corner. I have also built The Beginning up in my head hugely.
It’s not though is it? Whether you think it should be or not is irrelevant, ‘slag’ is far more insulting. I don’t know, I can imagine a lot of people being just as offended at being called a trollop as they would being called a slag. I think it largely comes down to what connotations to attach to either word. Ultimately though, either way the meaning would have been clear whatever word had been chosen and it’s surely that which is the offensive part. I can’t say that I’m really impressed at the men on this thread who think ‘slag’ is a suitable word for someone that you’re meant to care for This. *stern face* Let’s be totally clear here before I come across as some terrible sexist cunt; I am not saying it’s a right or justifiable thing for anyone to say about anyone else, *whatever* their gender, as that is not what I think at all. What I am however saying is that I can believe the use of it here by the character in question, at the culmination of the episode. If I were watching Porridge and a similar term was used then it wouldn’t bother me as I’d see it as the kind of expression i’d expect from those types of characters. I view Lister’s use of slag in exactly the same way, especially when he hasn’t exactly shown the most enlightened of views towards sexual politics in the past. I’m also fully of the opinion though that it’s the sort of thing that would be said in the heat of the moment and probably not be his long term view. I realise that’s not a view that’s unanimous among Dwarf fans, but it’s just the way I’ve come to view the character.
I’m a girl, I didn’t have a problem with ‘slag’. And the way it was delivered made it feel in character even if it wasn’t. If we’re on the subject of offensive terms, I’ve never known a site where ‘cunt’ features so often…..except maybe porn sites ;-)
What is it with the” hormonal challenged” and the word cunt? Its just a word! people call me a dick and it just passes on! women go crazy when called a cunt! Someone please explain this behavior!
What is it with the” hormonal challenged” and the word cunt? Its just a word! people call me a dick and it just passes on! women go crazy when called a cunt! Someone please explain this behavior! I need my Philip J. Fry squinty face with the “NOT SURE IF GENUINELY CONFUSED OR JUST TROLLING.”
This whole episode is about him being depressed that the human race is gone. He’s being told to move on. He’s being told he’s the absolute zero, and somehow, that’s supposed to find him motivation to get up out of bed. He longs for what he never had. Then, by mail, he’s given a glimmer of hope. He clings to it. He lives in the doubt and builds up an entire family he never had but always wanted. He spends the entire prelude to the reveal building this woman up, saying she’d raise the best kids, and that finally — just finally – he’s contributed to society. He felt like somewhere out there, Lister done good. Then she took away what he never really had. To be fair, calling her a slag is an understatement and perfectly Lister-ish. He vents with a word and a gesture, but never lets himself be consumed by it. Most of all — it’s funny.
“I hate the C word. I never use it.” You f*****g well hit the cl*t right on the nail there, you c*****g b*****d!
I hate the C word. I never use it. Don’t worry. On G&T, the C-word is practically a term of endearment.
“I hate the C word. I never use it.” You f*****g well hit the cl*t right on the nail there, you c*****g b*****d! Thanks Eddie! Lol!
>It’s not though is it? Whether you think it should be or not is irrelevant, ‘slag’ is far more insulting. I don’t know, I can imagine a lot of people being just as offended at being called a trollop as they would being called a slag. I think it largely comes down to what connotations to attach to either word. Ultimately though, either way the meaning would have been clear whatever word had been chosen and it’s surely that which is the offensive part. Perhaps it’s a Northern thing, but ‘trollop’ is an insult that Ena Sharples would have used on Corrie in the 1960s, it’s just not that insulting. I’ve had someone call me a slag, I can vouch for it’s viciousness – if the same person had used the word trollop I’d most likely have laughed in their astonished face. While trollop does essentially mean the same thing, it’s much ‘softer’ language and so not as offensive.
>To be fair, calling her a slag is an understatement That sounds like you’re being totally fair, yes.
I’m a girl, I didn’t have a problem with ‘slag’. And the way it was delivered made it feel in character even if it wasn’t. If we’re on the subject of offensive terms, I’ve never known a site where ‘cunt’ features so often…..except maybe porn sites ;-) Yes, it’s all about context isn’t it? I’m a girl, I swear like a fucking docker. I live with two G&Ters and the word ‘cunt’ is used so often it has become a term of affection. Generally I’m of the mind that words have the power you give them, using ‘cunt’ so often diminishes its power – the intent behind the insult is what gives it the context though and that’s where my problem lies. Yes, Lister has used the word ‘Slag’ before, but in a totally different context, when he wasn’t himself and this case I don’t think it does feel in character. That’s my opinion and everyone disagreeing with me is completely entitled to do so, but for me it reflects badly on Lister – it’s not funny, it’s vicious and I don’t see Lister as a vicious person.
Lister used it before in polymorph, so its not entirely new to the show. For the love of God, are you actually reading what people are saying? I know it can be a lot of effort, but it helps immeasurably.
OH FOR FUCK’S SAKE. This conversation is so stupid and repetitive, that I’m going to get involved again despite not giving that much of a fuck about that scene. Words are not just a collection of letters. Yes, Lister has previously uttered the collection of sounds that make up the word ‘slags’. But the context and the meaning in Polymorph is so completely and utterly different to the context and meaning in Dear Dave, that any comparison is useless and irrelevant. It’s not contentious for a man to refer to three other men as ‘slags’. It is contentious for a man to refer to a woman as ‘an absolute slag’. Your opinion on this contention is up to you – some people are offended, some people find it funny, some people don’t mind either way. You have to completely strip each utterance of the word from all context in order to draw a comparison between them. Doing that indicates either some sort of cognitive problem, or a wilful ignorance of the rules of language.
“Slag” is not used in the US (to my knowledge), so watching Polymorph I figured out from context that he was basically saying “all of you scumbags” or such. Therefore, watching Dear Dave, I thought he was saying, “what an absolute scumbag.” I’d no idea of the gender connotation, and if it weren’t for this discussion I still wouldn’t. But now that I understand it to be akin to calling her a bitch, I’m in the camp that does find it offensive. Back in college I, like most students, was afraid to engage frankly in debates like this for fear of offending my peers or a professor. In a forum people can say what they think relatively anonymously. Despite an increase in flaming lately (unusual for G&T, at least since I’ve been here – we take the piss out of each other but it’s nothing personal), I am glad that this discussion is happening as I also was glad for the Taiwan Tony debate and other discussions we’ve had about racism. So, I guess in summation, keep it contentious but keep it civil.
I think the closest US equivalent for the way “slag” is generally used/intended over here might be “whore”? If I saw a male character in a US thing calling a woman a whore, I’d certainly find it uncomfortable in a similar way.
(I generally dislike gender-specific insults, mind. I wouldn’t call a woman a bitch, either, and I really dislike it when people casually do. Yet oddly, despite them referring to female anatomy, I have less of a problem using “cunt” or “twat” (although I would think twice before directly calling a woman either of those things), because they can be used as an insult against both men and women. Same goes for the likes of dick, or – as RDX has shown us – bastard.)
I took a stab at Fan Editing ‘Dear Dave’, but there was so much I wanted to change, I had to settle for rewriting it. In script format. Might make it available in a PDF file later.
Perhaps it’s a Northern thing, but ‘trollop’ is an insult that Ena Sharples would have used on Corrie in the 1960s, it’s just not that insulting. I think that’s precisely it. As I say, it is what it is by what connotations that you bring to it. With the east-end/Essex/dodgy end of my family for example, slag would be a word that’s often used in the same non gender specific way that cunt is on here, while trollop would be out of the ordinary and more liable to offend.
I took a stab at Fan Editing ‘Dear Dave’, but there was so much I wanted to change, I had to settle for rewriting it. In script format. Might make it available in a PDF file later. That’s sure to be good.
Can we please spare a thought for poor Lennon and McCartney swimming around in garibaldi crumbs. If we all shared the same opinions then this forum would be dull as a diesel deck slideshow, however let us unanimously agree that this is a shameful example of animal cruelty. And Garibaldis are just wrong.
I used to be shocked when I was a kid when I saw that Garibaldi biscuits were allowed to be sold given how many insects seems to have managed to get into the biscuit mixture…
If I found out a woman had been cheating on me throughout what I considered the only relationship I ever had that had ended on decent terms, I’d probably reassess my opinion of her as a “slag” too. She was fucking another man behind his back! And got pregnant in the process! That’s not a reasonable or humane or respectful (or possibly healthy) thing to do. Some might say more than a little promiscuous. What a slag!
I used to be shocked when I was a kid when I saw that Garibaldi biscuits were allowed to be sold given how many insects seems to have managed to get into the biscuit mixture… China’s Bright Food completes acquisition of majority holding of UK’s cereals manufacturer British Weetabix Food What they did for pet food they will do for your breakfast cereal!
Out of interest, what equivalent word would you have for a man who did the same? A female version of RD would presumably end with the line “what an absolute bastard”, probably. And RD is full of bastards. I wouldn’t be offended by that word, on account of not being one (in my eyes, anyway). And slag is not exclusively female, either. I know plenty of man-slags, and they get called up on it too. Maybe it’s just a Wales thing, but I’ve heard blokes described as slags on many an occasion, in the same context as Lister’s usage here.
A female version of RD would presumably end with the line “what an absolute bastard”, probably. And RD is full of bastards. It doesn’t quite have the same weight, though, does it? Slag, used in this context, is a word that evokes decades of double standards, and bastard is just a mild swear word that’s long since lost it’s true meaning and weight. I wouldn’t be offended by that word, on account of not being one (in my eyes, anyway). I’m not sure I follow this logic. Does an insult have to be directly aimed at you in order for you to take offence? And slag is not exclusively female, either. I know plenty of man-slags, and they get called up on it too. Maybe it’s just a Wales thing, but I’ve heard blokes described as slags on many an occasion, in the same context as Lister’s usage here. I’ll admit to not identifying Wales as a particular haven of sexual equality, but I’ll take your word for it. I don’t think the context of calling a man a slag and a woman a slag is the same at all, though, simply because of the history of double standards in this country. It’s far less likely that an unseen male character would essentially be dismissed as a “slag” for a punchline to an episode, because that’s just not how it works, even today. The characterisation of women being slags if they cheat, or sleep around or whatever is still an ingrained perception in our society, and the same just simply isn’t true for men. It sucks, but it’s true. I feel deeply uncomfortable getting on my high horse about this, being as I actually am and a man and admit to finding the shock of the word on the night inherently amusing, but I’m finding this “well, I see nothing wrong with it, she IS a slag” stuff that’s been thrown around this thread disconcerting. We know fuck all about this character, which is what makes the whole thing weird and uncomfortable.
Do we actually know that Hayley was cheating on Lister throughout their relationship? Yes, it’s strongly implied in the conversation about her working overtime, but that could just be to set up the finger-wetting joke (which I found hilarious btw; I’m not a prude). For all we know it could have been a one-off drunken mistake, since we only hear a small part of her first letter and none of the second. As Jonathan said, the fact that we know nothing about the context of this unseen character’s behaviour is what makes the judgemental dismissal uncomfortable and out of character for Lister. As someone else said, it would have been funnier and less problematic if he’d said nothing and just done the finger-wetting mime to end the ep.
Or alternatively what makes it more comfortable. If we knew her, maybe calling her a slag would be harsh and insulting. But we don’t. We know she used to go out with Lister, he has a soft spot for her on the basis it’s his only relationship that didn’t go sour, and she was cheating on him the entire time. I feel it would be LESS justifed if we knew her better. And having lived in England there is zero disparity between sexual equality in Wales and England, from my experience. I don’t know why you imply there would be? ‘Slag’ in a male context is something I have heard a lot in Wales, and I have inhabited around a 60+ mile radius between Cardiff and Swansea in my time, so its not simply localised vernacular.
We know she used to go out with Lister, he has a soft spot for her on the basis it’s his only relationship that didn’t go sour, and she was cheating on him the entire time. I feel it would be LESS justifed if we knew her better. But if we knew her, then we’d be in a position to make our own judgements and decide for ourselves whether Lister was justified or not. There’s no big problem with one character being unfair to another, so long as we know enough about them both to put it in context. We only know this person through Lister’s perspective, so all it boils down to is a bitter old man calling an old girlfriend a slag, with absolutely no justification to the audience. And having lived in England there is zero disparity between sexual equality in Wales and England, from my experience. I don’t know why you imply there would be? It was poorly worded, I wasn’t implying Wales in any worse than the rest of the country. I’m from Yorkshire, hardly the most enlightened of places.
I disagree that there is NO justification. The justification is there. It boils down to choices Lister makes in dealing with the information he’s presented with. It’s certainly a question of perspective. The line didn’t jar me at all, and I didn’t find it offensive in even in earnest attempts to empathise. It’s just not THAT powerful a word, to my perspective. Okay, maybe that is coloured by my being male, but I believe it’s more likely coloured by the attitudes of the society I developed in, where slag is not that offensive a word; women will call their female friends “slags” tongue-in-cheek and they laugh it off, men and women will call other men and women “slags”, it’s very low down on the scale of offence. Also, any man who has ever found out that a girlfriend he trusted has made the beast with two backs elsewhere whilst in a relationship with him will probably relate to Lister’s initial gut reaction. I had a girlfriend cheat on me many moons ago; I do think she was a bit of a slag now. Because of what she did to me and what that says to me about her character. It may be the only time she ever did that to anybody for all I know, doesn’t change my perception of her because it is personal to me.
I disagree that there is NO justification. The justification is there. It boils down to choices Lister makes in dealing with the information he’s presented with.It’s certainly a question of perspective. The line didn’t jar me at all, and I didn’t find it offensive in even in earnest attempts to empathise. It’s just not THAT powerful a word, to my perspective. Okay, maybe that is coloured by my being male, but I believe it’s more likely coloured by the attitudes of the society I developed in, where slag is not that offensive a word; women will call their female friends “slags” tongue-in-cheek and they laugh it off, men and women will call other men and women “slags”, it’s very low down on the scale of offence. Also, any man who has ever found out that a girlfriend he trusted has made the beast with two backs elsewhere whilst in a relationship with him will probably relate to that thought. I had a girlfriend cheat on me many moons ago; I do think she was a bit of a slag now. Because of what she did to me and what that says to me about her character. It may be the only time she ever did that to anybody for all I know, doesn’t change my perception of her because it is personal to me. I grew up in the Midlands and “slag” was considered a nasty insult in my social circle and still is. I suppose it does depend how you view the word.
Regarding ‘Slag-gate’, the use of it as the punchline to the entire episode is what sits uneasily for me. The word obviously has offensive connotations but it’s not too jarring to imagine Lister using it in the heat of the moment and regretting it afterwards. With it being the end line, we don’t see that. Which is not a problem for some people, but here’s why it is for me. Not that I have had the word ‘slag’ used sincerely in my direction (and if I did, I genuinely don’t think I would find it as cutting as a woman might were it to be used sincerely in her direction), I do think that we have to look at not just Lister using it because of how he feels in the heat of the moment. ‘Red Dwarf’ itself using it in this context is the problem for me, particularly not just as a joke but as THE joke. The fact that it is predominantly used to denigrate the perceived ‘virtue’ of a woman means that it can be (and is) used as a general insult to women in general, based on an outdated concept that women should keep their legs shut, and I don’t think ‘Red Dwarf’ using it really helps this. Those are my thoughts on it anyway. Really enjoyed the episode by the way, don’t want people to think I’m getting all down on it. Nor am I belittling other peoples’ views on the ‘Slaaaaaaaaaag’ thing, it’s interesting how divisive it is.
The word obviously has offensive connotations but it’s not too jarring to imagine Lister using it in the heat of the moment and regretting it afterwards. With it being the end line, we don’t see that. This nails it on the head for me.
Hi Chris Stokes! Welcome to G&T :D Carlito – So many things getting me riled in your posts there, but I really haven’t the energy. I will just pick you up on one thing though: women will call their female friends “slags” tongue-in-cheek and they laugh it off, We’re back to contexts again here aren’t we? If one woman said “What an absolute slag!” to another woman and meant it in the same way Lister had, there would more likely be fists in cheeks than tongues. Do we actually know that Hayley was cheating on Lister throughout their relationship? Yes, it’s strongly implied in the conversation about her working overtime, but that could just be to set up the finger-wetting joke (which I found hilarious btw; I’m not a prude). No, we don’t know either way. Yes, they implied that she had been cheating on him, but they never read out the full letters, so we don’t know. There could have been a crossover at the end of the relationship, or maybe she split up with Lister to be with Roy. People are jumping to conclusions… so just for kicks, let’s work that the other way! Presumably the post-pod would be fairly regular when Red Dwarf was a working mining ship, a pregnancy only lasts 9 months and she writes to him when she finds out she’s pregnant – so we have to assume that Lister split up with Hayley not long before he went into stasis. We don’t know exactly when Lister split up with Hayley, but we *do* know that he’s been desperately trying to hook up with Kochanski for quite some time. So, it’s fine for him to try it on with other women while dating someone else, but not ok for Hayley to (possibly) do the same ?
Do we actually know that Hayley was cheating on Lister throughout their relationship? Yes, it’s strongly implied in the conversation about her working overtime, but that could just be to set up the finger-wetting joke (which I found hilarious btw; I’m not a prude). For all we know it could have been a one-off drunken mistake, since we only hear a small part of her first letter and none of the second. As Jonathan said, the fact that we know nothing about the context of this unseen character’s behaviour is what makes the judgemental dismissal uncomfortable and out of character for Lister. As someone else said, it would have been funnier and less problematic if he’d said nothing and just done the finger-wetting mime to end the ep. Yes, totally agree, and this was why I can’t justify the word being used as a punchline. Also, Carlito, using your experience as the norm for the UK is misguided. Having spent all of my 35 years on the planet as female, I can assure you that female sexual behaviour is still judged in far harsher terms than male sexual behaviour as a whole, so calling a man a ‘slag’ can’t possibly have the same impact as calling a woman a ‘slag’ in a programme aimed at the general population, rather than you and your social circle. Just because you grew up with the word not meaning much doesn’t mean that everyone did, and I think the offence really should be looked at in those terms; after all, some people saw it as a slur and thought it was justified!
And some didn’t. I hate to quote the oft-maligned Ricky Gervais but he nailed it when he said “everyone has the right to offend, and everyone has the right to be offended, but nobody has the right to not be offended”. I took zero offence at the expression used and gather from various comments that I am certainly not alone. I also didn’t find it especially out of character. Others did; that’s your perogative. But also that is based on your perspective which is coloured by your experiences and environment. To say that my perspective is irrelevant because not everybody grew up in my social circle is akin to saying, well, so is yours then.
Thank you for the welcomes, much appreciated! And some didn’t. I hate to quote the oft-maligned Ricky Gervais but he nailed it when he said “everyone has the right to offend, and everyone has the right to be offended, but nobody has the right to not be offended”. That is a good quotation that makes a lot of sense, but it is very easy to use it as a justification for that thing people do now, which is claim they’re straight talking and telling it like it is when in actual fact they are just being carelessly rude. I’m not saying that’s how you’re using it, of course. Nor that ‘Red Dwarf’ was being careless either, it’s obvious Doug put a lot of thought into it. In this instance, I don’t happen to agree with his decision. There’s a part in the middle of that quotation that Gervais makes clear but that does get overlooked by some people, which is the ‘everybody has a right to be offended’ part. I agree with Gervais 100% that even though nobody has the right NOT to be offended, they do have the right to question why they are being offended. To go back to those people who claim to simply ‘say it as they see it’ as an example, there is a big difference between being told, “I’m not sure that haircut suits you,” and, “Your hair is fucking hideous.” A lot of people shrug the latter off as, “I’m only being honest,” when the former is the way to go, and even then only if you’re asked. Fuck, I’m rambling, but I suppose the point I’m trying to make is that everybody DOES have the right to offend, but they also have an obligation to think long and hard about it beforehand. Doug clearly did this, which is why I’m not up in arms about it, just in disagreement.
Hi Chris Stokes! Welcome to G&T :D Carlito – So many things getting me riled in your posts there, but I really haven’t the energy. I will just pick you up on one thing though: women will call their female friends “slags” tongue-in-cheek and they laugh it off, We’re back to contexts again here aren’t we? If one woman said “What an absolute slag!” to another woman and meant it in the same way Lister had, there would more likely be fists in cheeks than tongues. Do we actually know that Hayley was cheating on Lister throughout their relationship? Yes, it’s strongly implied in the conversation about her working overtime, but that could just be to set up the finger-wetting joke (which I found hilarious btw; I’m not a prude). No, we don’t know either way. Yes, they implied that she had been cheating on him, but they never read out the full letters, so we don’t know. There could have been a crossover at the end of the relationship, or maybe she split up with Lister to be with Roy. People are jumping to conclusions… so just for kicks, let’s work that the other way! Presumably the post-pod would be fairly regular when Red Dwarf was a working mining ship, a pregnancy only lasts 9 months and she writes to him when she finds out she’s pregnant – so we have to assume that Lister split up with Hayley not long before he went into stasis. We don’t know exactly when Lister split up with Hayley, but we *do* know that he’s been desperately trying to hook up with Kochanski for quite some time. So, it’s fine for him to try it on with other women while dating someone else, but not ok for Hayley to (possibly) do the same ? Actually, I figured Lister was seeing her either on Earth or Mimas (planet side somewhere), and the letter took THAT long to find him – if they broke up shortly before he left Earth, can’t you imagine nobody could find him for a while, and maybe the letter got to Mimas right after he left (or not even then) … and maybe the only way it got on the Dwarf pod at all was that Lister’s name popped up finally in the JMC roster and flagged something somewhere? That’s just what I figured when I watched it.
Out of interest, what equivalent word would you have for a man who did the same? A female version of RD would presumably end with the line “what an absolute bastard”, probably. And RD is full of bastards. I wouldn’t be offended by that word, on account of not being one (in my eyes, anyway). And slag is not exclusively female, either. I know plenty of man-slags, and they get called up on it too. Maybe it’s just a Wales thing, but I’ve heard blokes described as slags on many an occasion, in the same context as Lister’s usage here. No. “Pig” might come close. “Bastard” means nothing to me as a woman judging a man’s sexual morality. “Asshole” comes to mind. “Jackoff” is another good one. Those are just the ones I can remember offhand from when I found out my former fiancé had cheated on me (its been about 20 years so you’ll have to forgive poorer memory, LOL).
everybody DOES have the right to offend, but they also have an obligation to think long and hard about it beforehand. Doug clearly did this, which is why I’m not up in arms about it, just in disagreement. Excellent, excellent point. And this is why, if I may open another can of worms, I was a bit sickened by Doug’s decision to include throwaway jokes about “women who are actually men”. It didn’t feel like he’d thought long and hard about that. It didn’t feel like he’d even considered that transsexual people actually exist outside of being handy targets for easy comedy. Much less that some of them might be watching the show, or even that they might be longstanding fans of his work (*coughs politely). It was a minor thing, but it made me sad.
everybody DOES have the right to offend, but they also have an obligation to think long and hard about it beforehand. Doug clearly did this, which is why I’m not up in arms about it, just in disagreement. Excellent, excellent point. And this is why, if I may open another can of worms, I was a bit sickened by Doug’s decision to include throwaway jokes about “women who are actually men”. It didn’t feel like he’d thought long and hard about that. It didn’t feel like he’d even considered that transsexual people actually exist outside of being handy targets for easy comedy. Much less that some of them might be watching the show, or even that they might be longstanding fans of his work (*coughs politely). It was a minor thing, but it made me sad. I remember a Series 1 line about Lister preferring the company of a cross-dressing Nazi over Rimmer, so this certainly isn’t the first go at using gender-related ambiguity as a comedy target. And that wasn’t Doug alone writing it.
And this is why, if I may open another can of worms, I was a bit sickened by Doug’s decision to include throwaway jokes about “women who are actually men”. It didn’t feel like he’d thought long and hard about that. It didn’t feel like he’d even considered that transsexual people actually exist outside of being handy targets for easy comedy. Much less that some of them might be watching the show, or even that they might be longstanding fans of his work (*coughs politely). It was a minor thing, but it made me sad. Yeah but I don’t see how it was really all that detrimental in the context. Rimmer has shown that his not the shining example of tolerance and his just trying to annoy Lister by saying his had a relationship with a transsexual. If we wanna pick holes in everything that can be seen as offense then you can’t make jokes about anything fear the risk of accidentally treading on someone’s toes. That if we did that then nothing would be funny, and above all else freedom of speech would be officially dead…….do any of us really want that?
There is certainly still a massive double standard perpetuated today via the outmoded usage of such words as “slag”. In this case I think it’s still quite rare for men to call other men slags or sluts, especially in the same context as many would mean it when aiming it at women. An indeed we’re still told that the term “Slag” is ‘officially’ in relation to women, as opposed to people in general who tend to sleep around. “Slag. (noun) 1. Stony waste matter that is left when metal has been separated from ore by smeltering or refining. 2. (Brit. Informal, derogatory) A woman who has had many sexual partners. * Verb: Slags, slagging, slagged. usu; slagged someone off. (Brit. Informal, Criticize someone in a rude or unpleasant way. Origin; German; Slagge.” ~ Compact Oxford English Dictionary.” Personally, I used to use the term in relation to both men and women who sleep around. But that’s not a cultural thing (not in the parts of England I grew up in anyway) – my teenage self made a conscious decision to ignore the unfortunate evolutionary baggage, inherent bias and double standards, and thus I used it towards/when describing men (who ‘sleep around’) rather a lot. Which more often than not lead to some very odd looks from other teenage boys and men. For we’re to believe a man who sleeps around is a so-called ‘stud’ [“A man who has many sexual partners and/or is considered sexually desirable”]. But nowadays I don’t tend to use the term “slag” at all…Maybe we need some new words, maaan! Or at least let’s evolve the semantics already, you know!? ;) “Pour my life into a paper cup The ashtray’s full and I’m spillin’ my guts She wanna’ know am I still a slut I gotta’ take it on the other side” ~ Anthony Kiedis/RHCP – Otherside Incidentally The word “Slut” is defined by a recently updated version of The Compact Oxford English Dictionary as follows; “Slut (noun) 1. A woman who has had many sexual partners. 2. A woman who is untidy or lazy.” Women, specifically…again! No, no, no this will not do at all! Go to your room, English language! And THIS is why these outdated, biased terms need to be revised at very least. That many (most?) still use such words against women but not men is crazy zaney madness I tells ya! :O Surely if the term must be used at all then it should be evolved into a non gender specific word. Including having the definition changed in our dictionaries…I suggest a major, and I mean leaflet campaign! But yeah, all that said I don’t think it was intended to be said in a sexist way by Lister. He may have just been projecting and thus his emotions got the better of him via the use of an inherently sexist term he grew up hearing a lot. But no it’s not a term that ALL men would use in that situation. I can also completely understand why some have found it so offensive. The term and it’s usage carries a lot of negative, and indeed rather sexist evolutionary baggage. I can only speak for myself of course, but outside of Polymorph, an Eastenders spin-off show – and perhaps a few London-based gangster films, I’ve never personally heard a man called a slag by another man. That’s not to say in doesn’t happen though, but never in my 35 years have I heard it used in such a way.
It’s A MAN show! Get over it! This is how men talk! [URL=http://s1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh490/pecospete_666/?action=view¤t=dfdb4667eed3fac31fddc3a6f2d44a07_zps4ebdf7b6.jpg][IMG]http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh490/pecospete_666/th_dfdb4667eed3fac31fddc3a6f2d44a07_zps4ebdf7b6.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
It’s A MAN show! Get over it! This is how men talk! [URL=http://s1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh490/pecospete_666/?action=view¤t=dfdb4667eed3fac31fddc3a6f2d44a07_zps4ebdf7b6.jpg][IMG]http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh490/pecospete_666/th_dfdb4667eed3fac31fddc3a6f2d44a07_zps4ebdf7b6.jpg[/IMG][/URL] No it isn’t.
Prove me wrong! Well that would mean understanding what the hell you’re talking about, wouldn’t it? Can you not follow a thread? maybe your too high to read it!
I can follow a thread fine, it’s you I’m wondering about. If you mean it’s a ‘man show’ because it’s made for men, well a significant number of the audience being female can prove you wrong. Or if you’re asking to be proven wrong on ‘that’s how men talk’, I am a man and I don’t talk like that and neither do nearly all the men I know.
Prove both! https://twitter.com/DougRDNaylor/status/254205315099291648 And I do have to concede PescoPete may be right about that being how men talk. Now I think about it, every single episode of Red Dwarf before ‘Dear Dave’ does have the crew sitting around throwing around derogatory terms for women. Can’t believe I’d not noticed it before.
Prove both! Just over 50% of the people currently registered for Dimension Jump XVII are female. Some men do talk like that, the majority of men *I* know don’t… and I worked at Royal Mail for 5 years in an office with around 50 men and just 6 women.
“Just over 50% of the people currently registered for Dimension Jump XVII are female” Meaningless till its over! This 50% are they single? or do they have males going with them? Please save the trolling comments for some one else. I will not respond to them!
“Just over 50% of the people currently registered for Dimension Jump XVII are female. Some men do talk like that, the majority of men *I* know don’t… and I worked at Royal Mail for 5 years in an office with around 50 men and just 6 women.” You alreadly said women do not talk like that! If it is not a MAN thing then”WHAT IS IT” quote from the cat.
“Just over 50% of the people currently registered for Dimension Jump XVII are female” Meaningless till its over! This 50% are they single? or do they have males going with them? Please save the trolling comments for some one else. I will not respond to them! Because women only go where their men tell them to? “Some men do talk like that, the majority of men *I* know don’t… and I worked at Royal Mail for 5 years in an office with around 50 men and just 6 women.” You alreadly said women do not talk like that! If it is not a MAN thing then”WHAT IS IT” quote from the cat. Erm… where exactly did I say that? I’ve never denied that people say the word ‘slag’.
This 50% are they single? or do they have males going with them? Is your point that because the other 50% are males, then it’s a man thing? Genuine question, I’d hate you think I was trolling you.
“Because women only go where their men tell them to?” Correct for 80% Or they just want to please their man, or they are trying to get one.
Pete, please stop trolling, it’s getting incredibly boring. I much prefer you when you’re going on about Vogans rather then poking people into taking your shit seriously.
Pete, please stop trolling, it’s getting incredibly boring. I much prefer you when you’re going on about Vogans rather then poking people into taking your shit seriously. When people can not support what they say “I’m trolling! “I think you need to reexamine the term trolling. If people disagree with what I said they are entitled to speak about the subject, not “FUCK OFF” that’s trolling, or don’t reply. Stop making excuses for others.
When people can not support what they say “I’m trolling! “I think you need to reexamine the term trolling. If people disagree with what I said they are entitled to speak about the subject, not “FUCK OFF” that’s trolling, or don’t reply. Stop making excuses for others. You’ve just provided a very accurate description of what you’re doing, there. We CAN support what we’re saying, providing experiences and links and even a tiny smattering of stats. It’s you who cannot support what you’re saying beyond, “Go on, prove me wrong.” Can you prove what you’re saying? Just so you can use your own criteria to prove you’re not a troll? The mistake I myself have made in this debate is addressing you directly. Hook, line, sinker, rod and copy of Angling Times.
I think it’s instinctive to label something as “trolling” if the viewpoint being expressed, irrespective of sincerity, is ignorant bullshit.
When people can not support what they say “I’m trolling! “I think you need to reexamine the term trolling. If people disagree with what I said they are entitled to speak about the subject, not “FUCK OFF” that’s trolling, or don’t reply. Stop making excuses for others. Actually, me telling you to “FUCK OFF” would technically be ‘Flaming’. You’re the one posting deliberately inflammatory statements, that is trolling. So, I think it is *you* that needs to re-examine the term ‘Trolling’. Regardless of my initial reaction, I gave you information as you had demanded proof. You chose to ignore or dismiss that and the Tweet from Doug Naylor posted by Chris. The mistake I myself have made in this debate is addressing you directly. Hook, line, sinker, rod and copy of Angling Times. Ditto!
It’s A MAN show! Get over it! This is how men talk! Well go on now, mount yer horse an’ go git some possum for us, an’ I’ll stay here and sweeps the dirt floor, milord! Bitch, please. :-)
Pecospete, frankly I don’t give a shit if this classes as trolling or not. Quite apart from the incoherent bullshit that seems to spout from your keyboard, you cannot make a point in a clear way. If you disagree with something then at least have the conviction to back up your opinions with some reasoned and considered thought, rather than reacting like an over-excited and spoilt brat. It’s incredibly tiresome and shows you in a very negative light.
I remember a Series 1 line about Lister preferring the company of a cross-dressing Nazi over Rimmer, so this certainly isn’t the first go at using gender-related ambiguity as a comedy target. And that wasn’t Doug alone writing it. That doesn’t preclude me from hoping for a little consideration 24 years later. Yeah but I don’t see how it was really all that detrimental in the context. Rimmer has shown that his not the shining example of tolerance and his just trying to annoy Lister by saying his had a relationship with a transsexual. I’d love to think the joke here was “Rimmer is a tactless arsehole” rather than “tee hee, trans women have big feet and stubble”, but somehow I doubt it. If we wanna pick holes in everything that can be seen as offense then you can’t make jokes about anything fear the risk of accidentally treading on someone’s toes. That if we did that then nothing would be funny Personally, I don’t see any harm in erring on the side of caution. Presumably Doug doesn’t either, given that he wavered over using the “slag” line. And he managed to produce 30 minutes of comedy material with apparently only two of the jokes offending anyone (both of which were over in seconds), which doesn’t really square with your argument.
That looks like it could be Mac McDonald in that simulant costume. Have the VIII crew been assimilated and are looking for revenge? it doesn’t seem to be mac, i don’t know if anyone should be disappointed or not, but rumour suggests its a character from the movie script
I’d love to think the joke here was “Rimmer is a tactless arsehole” rather than “tee hee, trans women have big feet and stubble”, but somehow I doubt it.. I really feel you are being overly sensitive about it, I mean if I were LGBT I’d like to think that I could take a seemingly light hearted joke in relation to it in good grace. I mean how I see it is the Rimmer is saying specifically to bug him, I mean I think it would bug most seemingly heterosexual men to think that one of the more meaningful relationships with a woman wasn’t one at all. I don’t think the idea is to be like “Tee hee ladyboys are funny”…..it’s just Rimmer being a sod to Lister because that’s something he likes to do. Personally, I don’t see any harm in erring on the side of caution. Presumably Doug doesn’t either, given that he wavered over using the “slag” line. And he managed to produce 30 minutes of comedy material with apparently only two of the jokes offending anyone (both of which were over in seconds), which doesn’t really square with your argument. I frankly doubt that it even occurred to Doug that it would offend anyone…..I watched that scene and I know it would have never occurred to me. However people now seem to look toward anything to be offended by, I mean I’ve seen countless Australian stereotypes (I’m from Australia fyi) and frankly I have not once seen that as offensive, I’m half Russian and frankly I often find Russian stereotypes are pretty funny. Things like this which clearly have no malicious intent are only offensive if people let them be, otherwise the next thing is people are up in arms about someone falling down because it MIGHT be deemed offensive to someone with physical disabilities.
I think it would bug most seemingly heterosexual men to think that one of the more meaningful relationships with a woman wasn’t one at all. Transsexual women are women. The clue’s in the word “women”.
I really feel you are being overly sensitive about it, I mean if I were LGBT I’d like to think that I could take a seemingly light hearted joke in relation to it in good grace. I think the crucial detail here is that you’re not LGBT, so I’m not sure you can really make a call about what you and would and wouldn’t find offensive or, at the very least, disappointing.
Basically, I’m really looking forward to never talking about Dear Dave again. I think I’ll start… NOW.
Transsexual women are women. The clue’s in the word “women”. I’m not disputing this, forgive my lack of detail in describing the matter. However Rimmer was saying that the woman Lister was dating was actually a man….in the episode, I was merely referring that. I have not or will not ever dispute the validity of physical gender over psychological gender. Maybe it was bad wording by me but I think maybe you missed my point. I think the crucial detail here is that you’re not LGBT, so I’m not sure you can really make a call about what you and would and wouldn’t find offensive or, at the very least, disappointing. Perhaps not, however I pride myself on not being a person that is quick to offend unless I do feel there was a mean spirited intent. Even if I were LGBT I would hope I felt the same way…..I can’t say for sure that I would but I’d like to think so.
>Pete, please stop trolling, it’s getting incredibly boring. I much prefer you when you’re going on about Vogans rather then poking people into taking your shit seriously.< Ah you G&T guys have had the whole "Vogans" spiel too eh? There's *almost* a part of me that misses Pescopete on TOS forum…*sniff*.
>Pete, please stop trolling, it’s getting incredibly boring. I much prefer you when you’re going on about Vogans rather then poking people into taking your shit seriously.< Ah you G&T guys have had the whole "Vogans" spiel too eh? There's *almost* a part of me that misses Pescopete on TOS forum…*sniff*. Thats alright, I left you Renzor!
I missed you guys. I’ve been watching the new episodes, though, and I wanted to comment. Seems the “slag” comment has set off a debate! I didn’t find it offensive, but it did seem a little un-RD. Then again, so did a lot of jokes from these new episodes… I can’t shake off the image of Doug as an embarrassing old dad at a party trying to be “cool” by making references to modern things… at least there hasn’t been a Facebook joke in there. However, comments about RD being a “guy show” are just laughable… do you say that because the majority of the characters are male? I for one got into RD all by my (female) self and even managed to find my way to DJ without a man telling me where to go.
And some didn’t. I hate to quote the oft-maligned Ricky Gervais but he nailed it when he said “everyone has the right to offend, and everyone has the right to be offended, but nobody has the right to not be offended”. I took zero offence at the expression used and gather from various comments that I am certainly not alone. I also didn’t find it especially out of character. Others did; that’s your perogative. But also that is based on your perspective which is coloured by your experiences and environment. To say that my perspective is irrelevant because not everybody grew up in my social circle is akin to saying, well, so is yours then. You’ve misunderstood my point to an extreme degree. Sadly, my experience is the dominant one in society, whilst yours isn’t. I wish it were the other way round, and I was cautioning you in assuming that your experience is in any way typical and was likely to be the one Doug was referencing, because it isn’t. You really need to understand that, especially when a woman is telling you that it’s the case.
I missed you guys. I’ve been watching the new episodes, though, and I wanted to comment. Seems the “slag” comment has set off a debate! I didn’t find it offensive, but it did seem a little un-RD. Then again, so did a lot of jokes from these new episodes… I can’t shake off the image of Doug as an embarrassing old dad at a party trying to be “cool” by making references to modern things… at least there hasn’t been a Facebook joke in there. Which kind of makes me wonder if any of the younger guys working for Doug have said “uh … no, don’t use that.” ;-) Then again, the characters of Red Dwarf are middle-aged guys and so I guess they would use language familiar to their generation when talking to each other. MY question is this: For the show’s characters, the 2100s are their “modern times” vernacular-wise, but I know the expressions and words we hear them use are ones we’re familiar with now in modern times, because now is when the writer and his audience are living (of course). I wonder how widely used “slag” would be in 170 years – is it widely used now, like in the UK? It’s not really used in the U.S. that way (once in a while you might hear the term “slag heap,” which has nothing to do with sex) – I had the feeling it was an old-fashioned word that isn’t used much anymore. But y’know, cultural differences and all that, I might be wrong – like “cool” is one of those slang words that has managed to keep basically the same meaning for several decades and still gets wide use. So is “slag” still used much in everyday language in the UK?
Think he should call her a “SLAPPER” Release the Hormonally Challenge! and the hounds! AWWWW PUPPY! That may be a perfect graphic for you, Pecos – highly enthusiastic, largely toothless (metaphorically), and howling into the wind. ;-)
I missed you guys. I’ve been watching the new episodes, though, and I wanted to comment. Seems the “slag” comment has set off a debate! I didn’t find it offensive, but it did seem a little un-RD. Then again, so did a lot of jokes from these new episodes… I can’t shake off the image of Doug as an embarrassing old dad at a party trying to be “cool” by making references to modern things… at least there hasn’t been a Facebook joke in there. Which kind of makes me wonder if any of the younger guys working for Doug have said “uh … no, don’t use that.” ;-) Then again, the characters of Red Dwarf are middle-aged guys and so I guess they would use language familiar to their generation when talking to each other. MY question is this: For the show’s characters, the 2100s are their “modern times” vernacular-wise, but I know the expressions and words we hear them use are ones we’re familiar with now in modern times, because now is when the writer and his audience are living (of course). I wonder how widely used “slag” would be in 170 years – is it widely used now, like in the UK? It’s not really used in the U.S. that way (once in a while you might hear the term “slag heap,” which has nothing to do with sex) – I had the feeling it was an old-fashioned word that isn’t used much anymore. But y’know, cultural differences and all that, I might be wrong – like “cool” is one of those slang words that has managed to keep basically the same meaning for several decades and still gets wide use. So is “slag” still used much in everyday language in the UK? Slag is still widely used, and although some more liberal-minded folk may either use it for either sex, or shy away from it altogether, it’s mostly used to judge female sexual behaviour. I would hope that the word loses its current usage, and I think Rob & Doug originally tried to avoid too many contemporary references, but obviously that can be fairly tough to keep up.
>I think Rob & Doug originally tried to avoid too many contemporary references, but obviously that can be fairly tough to keep up. I grew tired of the line, “How _____ is that?” throughout the series. Don’t know about the UK, but this line is very overused in the US lately.
