Let’s Talk About Timewave (on Dave) News Posted by Ian Symes on 26th October 2017, 09:00 Hello there, Dave viewers. Sod it, let’s carry on with these threads, because you’re going to have a lot to say when you’ve seen this particular episode. It’s been quite a week, and you’ll have much to catch up on, such as the UKTV Play-paced discussion thread, last Friday’s Live Instant Reaction DwarfCast, and our full in-depth written review. But not until you’ve watched the episode of course; 9pm is the TimeWaveDaveTime. You’ll have about a forty minute window of being up-to-date after the show, as Mechocracy will be released on UKTV Play at around 10:20pm. The discussion thread for that will be along at the end of TimeWaveDaveTime.
I think your going to be surprised how ‘not offended’ most folks are. Personally I didn’t like it much due to the early promise of a great idea poorly executed. Plus some of the worst writing the show has seen in years. I still think one of the reasons it’s pretty slap dash is because Siliconia took it out of Doug a bit the week before. Maybe he will reveal all on the DVD?
Is it technically a spoiler if all the UKTV Play pace people are posting in the Dave pace thread about how shit the episode is pre-broadcast? Can you imagine if iPlayer had been around in 1999 and VIII was previewed a week in advance? Would we be able to resist the comments for Let’s Talk About Pete Part Two (on BBC2)?
I’ve hidden a couple of comments – remember these threads are for people who haven’t watched the episode yet, and it’s not fair to prejudice their expectations too much. I’ll put them back after broadcast.
Noticed on the second viewing that you never see Blofeld Rimmer in the same shot as anyone else, having reread the set reports that that bit was prerecorded and played on a VT at the same time they were doing the rest of the scene live.
Noticed on the second viewing that you never see Blofeld Rimmer in the same shot as anyone else, having reread the set reports that that bit was prerecorded and played on a VT at the same time they were doing the rest of the scene live. Well, yes, it would have been rather difficult to have two Chris Barries on set at the same time.
You’re right, I can’t think of any episode where there are multiple versions of any of the regular characters on screen at the same time.
Noticed on the second viewing that you never see Blofeld Rimmer in the same shot as anyone else, having reread the set reports that that bit was prerecorded and played on a VT at the same time they were doing the rest of the scene live. Well, yes, it would have been rather difficult to have two Chris Barries on set at the same time. Ah, yes, I remember in Officer Rimmer in that classic officer’s club scene where they cut to each Rimmer individually, and there certainly were never two, three, four, six, twelve, twenty Chris Barries in any shot.
Yeah, I was being facetious. I know that what you meant is that maybe the whole thing could have been pre-record, but that would have meant keeping an awful lot of the episode away from the audience.
That scene in itself, minus the laboured clitoris gag, was fantastic, well directed, and extremely well-acted. The fact that we don’t see Critic Rimmer in the same shot as anyone else doesn’t bother me, it’s very well executed. Was it really played in as a VT and acted out live simultaneously? If that went off without a hitch, that’s actually pretty impressive. Even the shitest episode of Red Dwarf has a couple good gags or interesting moments, it seems.
Timewave got a positive review in The Gay UK, which is sort of interesting, given people’s concerns that the episode was offensive to gay people. That’s now two gays (me and the dude who wrote the article) who don’t think it was offensive to gay people, but still one (me) who thought it was offensive to all other aspects of taste and decency
So, immediately after watching on UKTV Play, I wrote this: http://www.ganymede.tv/2017/10/lets-talk-about-timewave-on-uktv-play/#comment-89465 Since then, I’ve watched it another three times, and I don’t really agree with all my initial views. That, of course, is *entirely* because of Team G&T. No, there are certainly a few smiles rather than guffaws, but there *are* some points that are overplayed and a bit…well. And that clitoris gag actually causes me physical pain.
Doug does seem to be retweeting a lot of praise for this episode. Maybe I’m more sensitive to it but he seems to be doing it more for Timewave than he did for Cured and Siiliconia. Either there’s genuinely more positive feedback, or he’s trying to counterbalance the negativity.
He just retweets the positive feedback he gets whenever he checks in/feels like it I guess, and probably doesn’t get much negative feedback on Twitter/why on earth would you retweet negative feedback, ever. I’ve only seen about two people on Twitter actually saying bad things about Timewave, and one was just “this isn’t an episode I’m going to rewatch”, which is pretty light
That’s now two gays (me and the dude who wrote the article) who don’t think it was offensive to gay people Not a dude, but a woman; not a gay, as far as I understand her bio, but asexual. I’ve encountered her before in fandom circles. She has an… interesting web presence o.O
Apologies, I thought I should double check the article to see who wrote it but I got cocky and just blazenly went for it. And their Twitter avatar is a man’s very well defined six-pack so I thought it was a gay bloke’s mag. I could ask “what’s an asexual person doing writing for ‘the gay uk”, but i won’t
You know, folks, I may be the first to notice this, but I think the episode was very subtly conveying a moral message of some sort. I’ll probably need to rewatch it a few times to properly understand, but it was something about listening to criticism. It was probably a bit too underplayed, actually. It might have been better if Lister had bluntly and slowly spelled it out once or seven times. Random Thoughts! – The whole “Everyone gets a participation trophy”/”Political correctness is just shutting down reasonable criticism!” ethos of this episode makes my skin crawl. Combining that with the arguable homophobic stereotypes on display, are we sure Timewave was written by Doug Naylor and not Richard Littlejohn? – I can’t believe they made a joke about how Rimmer’s military figurines aren’t practically useful when a major plot point in one of the most beloved Red Dwarf episodes of all time was about how Rimmer’s military figurines were practically useful. I mean, seriously. – The performance and visual design of Rimmer’s inner critic was excellent, Confidence & Paranoia similarities be damned. Such a shame so little was done with him by comparison. – The premise of the no-criticism ship’s (yeah, no way I was going to remember/look up the name) problem doesn’t make sense to begin with. The solution to nothing getting done due to arguments is to have a hierarchical power structure, which is what they clearly do have. A smarter and more politically fortuitous episode would have taken a similar jumping off point to make commentary about how deciding everything via referendum would be complete chaos (or even just deciding one major thing that way *looks sideways to camera*). Now, am I saying Red Dwarf should have just ripped off the semi-classic Doctor Who serial Vengeance on Varos? Yes. Yes I am saying that. – Using an old middle-of-the-episode scene transition music cue at the beginning AND a sudden ending? This game of Dave-era Red Dwarf Bingo is far too easy! – The story feels really limp in this one. The threat never feels tangible because of how casually the Dwarfers decide to board the ship and just wander about the place for a bit, and the ship’s collision course is corrected off screen with what seems like loads of time to spare. Plus, it felt rushed, like it was all set up and no payoff. They hatch a plan to escape from jail! But then they’re recaptured before they even leave the cell. Johnny Vegas has been turned good and is letting them get away! But then they’re discovered before they’ve taken a single step. – So… I guess there’s just an entire ship full of other humans left alive and existing in the RD universe now, huh? That sure is a massive revelation for the immediate longevity of the human race that will presumably never be brought up again. – I miss Snacky. – I was a bit surprised they didn’t get into a back and forth about how arresting someone for criticising too much is in itself criticism. – Not a fan of how stupid the gang are here. The illegality of criticism was stressed to Lister multiple times, but his criticism of the food wasn’t played as a slip up. It’s more like he just completely forgets about the rule when he enters the room. – I know this joke variant — Lister/Kryten: “If we don’t turn off the thing, Rimmer will be hurt / killed / inocnvenienced!” Cat: “Oh my God, you’re right! Quick, turn the thing to a higher setting!” — is a classic format, but did they really need to use it as much as they did in this ep? – Did the ship’s crew invent magical “criticism draining” technology in order to more easily enforce the new law, or did they just conveniently have that tech available? Because it seems odd that a crew full of nobody doing the correct job would be able to achieve that. – The jokes about Rimmer’s testicles were seriously lazy. Rimmer’s a hologram! I know he can feel things but he’s not going to experience damage from scolding…. I think. – Bizarre moment where they all comment about how weird the timewave was (too weird for words, perhaps?), but all we saw was the picture go a bit wobbly for a second. Did I miss something? – OK, I really liked the Space Corps Directive line. It’s dependent on you having watched Series 6, but it’s a nice subversion. Chris’s delivery and Rob’s reaction sell it, too.
The jokes about Rimmer’s testicles were seriously lazy. Rimmer’s a hologram! I know he can feel things but he’s not going to experience damage from scolding…. I think. Actually, watching it originally, I thought Rimmer should have been MORE badly injured by having his bollocks scalded off, but now that you mention him being hard-light, that little niggle goes away, and I can appreciate the line about his old testicles being ruined even more. He was just making a joke, probably.
I can’t say that I enjoyed Timewave particularly but I really don’t agree with the suggestions of any homophobia on display. I really really don’t believe for a second (nor see any evidence at all) that that’s what the intention was at any point and I don’t think anyone needs to jump to tenuous conclusions to dislike this episode, there are plenty of actual reasons to dislike it without manufacturing more. Camp and panto-like it sure is but theres no reason to believe the entire ship is filled with homosexuals (which surely it would have to be considering they ALL dress in the same ludicrous manner as Ziggy, if that’s how you’re reading it) nor that camp = gay. If anything, if the entire crew or even just Ziggy were indeed gay and it doesn’t even get mentioned then that’s a positive portrayal, no? I’m just not buying that line of scrutiny of this episode.
I briefly imagined an episode where the crew come across a ship on which everybody is gay, and in order to fit in Lister and Rimmer have to pretend to be gay. But then I realised I can probably just go on Tumblr to read that story. And they wouldn’t be pretending.
I can’t say that I enjoyed Timewave particularly but I really don’t agree with the suggestions of any homophobia on display. I really really don’t believe for a second (nor see any evidence at all) that that’s what the intention was at any point and I don’t think anyone needs to jump to tenuous conclusions to dislike this episode, there are plenty of actual reasons to dislike it without manufacturing more. Camp and panto-like it sure is but theres no reason to believe the entire ship is filled with homosexuals (which surely it would have to be considering they ALL dress in the same ludicrous manner as Ziggy, if that’s how you’re reading it) nor that camp = gay. If anything, if the entire crew or even just Ziggy were indeed gay and it doesn’t even get mentioned then that’s a positive portrayal, no? I’m just not buying that line of scrutiny of this episode. I understand that this problem isn’t surface-level and that it’s all ultimately open to interpretation, but that does not make the complaint a fantasy. It is the following points combined with each other and cultural context – not just in isolation – that builds the homophobia angle, even if it was completely accidental (Death of the Author and all that. Impact overrides intention every time.): (1) The crew are villainised as being arbiters of out of control political correctness, which is something right-wingers do frequently to anyone who dares call out bigotry or hate speech, particularly those people who are disproportionately victims of it.. (2) Flamboyant behaviour, obsession with the colour pink and wearing more traditionally feminine clothing are specific stereotypes about gay men, and are played for laughs here. (3) LGBT people are frequently the subject of reactionary conspiracy theories in the press, often in connection with the aforementioned PC-Gone-Mad “Oversensitive snowflakes” complaints. Think of the contexts you tend to hear the term “gay agenda” used unironically. So it’s not a 100% sure thing, but “Look at these stupid gays who can’t handle criticism and need a safe space!” is a valid interpretation of the message of Timewave,
I don’t think anyone thinks that Doug is homophobic. I think a lot of people (myself included) think parts of Timewave can be easily misconstrued as homophobic and I’m sure viewers of a certain mindset would read Ziggy as a gay character (due to the aforementioned stereotypes) and, with their prejudices, would therefore read the scenes in a negative way that sits with their prejudices. It’s like Taiwan Tony. As avid fans we know the joke is that the guys ask a machine programmed to be a racial stereotype about racism. The way that joke is executed, however, makes it seem like the joke is “don’t Asian people talk in a funny way”.
On a side note, the set report mentions a reference to series 6, but I must have missed it. Anyone know what it was?
Ah, I’m with you now. I thought it was something more directly linked to 6, which is why I was confused. It is a lovely little moment, to be fair.
I think a lot of people (myself included) think parts of Timewave can be easily misconstrued as homophobic and I’m sure viewers of a certain mindset would read Ziggy as a gay character (due to the aforementioned stereotypes) and, with their prejudices, would therefore read the scenes in a negative way that sits with their prejudices. I have certainly seen plenty of praises for this episode which just called it something to the effect of ‘an excellent middle finger to gay liberal snowflake cuck pussy safe space culture’ (yes, that many words to describe it) which I really think has helped me to be put even further off this episode. If you’re writing an episode like this, you have got to be more careful with how you make it. If it can be interpreted like that, either you’ve made a huge mistake or you’ve just proven yourself a pretentious, out-of-touch twat.
It just occurred to me that originally the Dwarfers were only going to be given a caution and let off for verbally criticising the waitress and the food but the dude in the cell was given life imprisonment and put in a stray jacket and Hannibal mask just for tutting?
He clearly went bonkers and didn’t mention the part where he started foaming at the mouth and trying to bite off people’s ears
Apologies if this had already been mentioned, but i expected the ending to be them going back to planet Rimmer and finding out that the moon has already been claimed /mined as the moon had been discovered by the timewave in the 23rd(?) Century.
I don’t think anyone thinks that Doug is homophobic. I think a lot of people (myself included) think parts of Timewave can be easily misconstrued as homophobic I don’t think they’re being misconstrued at all. I think Doug is homophobic. Because I’ve seen that episode.
