Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Doctor Who – End of Time Broadcast Discussion

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  • #108005
    Andrew
    Participant

    > it?s just something he wrote in so they could use it later if they wanted to.

    RTD said (in the DVD commentary, I think) that Moffat put the memory loss in. It wasn’t on the showrunner’s request.

    If Davies had asked for it, I’d assume that a) he didn’t know what the cause was at the time, and b) he’d pick it up somewhere along the line, because he’s a big one for retro-fitting things into the continuity of new stories. (The sound of drums, the Wilf coincidences, ‘hey, I bet I can use that fork-lift’, etc.)

    But I don’t believe Moffat works that way. Just as he knows exactly who River Song is, I think he has a strong idea – not 100% locked, but clear enough – what caused Jack’s memory loss. What may be true is that all the subsequent Jack stories by other writers have either contradicted original ideas about the character’s history, or simply rendered it dramatically useless next to all the other stuff he’s been through.

    #108040
    steven87gill
    Participant

    I think what suprised me most about this episode was that we actually saw 10 physically change into 11, i’d convinced myself that we wouldn’t see the exploding jesus regeneration this time,

    Anyone else think that he’d changed into MS in the radiation booth until we saw his face?

    #108041
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Anyone else think that he?d changed into MS in the radiation booth until we saw his face?

    Oh yes. I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what was intended. While most of your rational mind is aware that there’s no way RTD lets Tennant go without a Memorable Line and a huge fanfare – and quite right to – a part of me couldn’t help think it.

    #108081
    steven87gill
    Participant

    Thanks for the reply. ;)

    Maybe it’s just me but did anyone else notice that the actual morphing of 10’s face into 11 wasn’t very well done. I can’t work out whether it’s simply the beams of light that are concealing it, but it just seemed a bit, odd.

    #108082
    Muzzy
    Participant

    I know what you mean. 9 to 10 was much better.

    #108083
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    No, I thought the same thing, actually.

    #108084
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Yeah, it seemed a bit jumpy. I’d have preferred a more traditional morph. The TV movie was better than that.

    #108087
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    The regeneration is the best bit about the TV movie, silly McCoy faces and all.

    I think there was definitely more detail in the 9/10 regeneration (Tennant’s hair sprouting out was especially good) but you could see the frozen transitional face a little bit too much, whereas this was just a very quick morph straight from Tennant to Smith. I thought it was still good, though.

    #108093
    redhead85
    Participant

    I concur with the regeneration comments above

    /generic statement

    #108112
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    It’s a while off yet, but I hope we’ve seen the end of the standard New-Who regeneration. I can see why it made sense for the 10->11 regen to visually stick to the new standard, but now we’re in Moff-Who (just for Chris) era I hope we start to see more variety.

    #108144
    pfm
    Participant

    > Just as he knows exactly who River Song is

    Yeah right he does… She’s the mysterious character who’s gonna keep us guessing and who we will never know the full truth about. We don’t need to know the truth about her. As soon as we learn that everything will be spoiled…

    #108146
    Andrew
    Participant

    > We don?t need to know the truth about her.

    Matter of opinion, but I’ve no doubt he knows.

    #108154
    pfm
    Participant

    > but I?ve no doubt he knows.

    No way. Well he won’t have done when he wrote the Library 2-parter. She’s just a device, albeit a very interesting one. Just like he won’t know how or why she knows the Doctor’s real name, what that one time was when she could have heard his name.

    We shall see in the new eps…

    #108161
    Andrew
    Participant

    The specifics I’ll certainly assume as vague – but between comments in the commentary and the underlying nature of Moff’s writing I can’t see any reason for that assumption beyond “Well it’s vague, and I don’t know, so he must not either.”

    #108163
    Andrew
    Participant

    Currently amused by the Amazon reviews for the specials box set. One condemning for not including Christmas Invasion, Runaway Bride and Voyage of the Damned (available separately, but okay, so if we give you that, what will we call the set that contains ‘all the stuff since the end of the last full series’?); and one giving one start for these not being the broadcast versions. The change? THE END CREDITS.

    Now hey, I’m all for ‘original, as broadcast’ DVD content, but…Jeez, get some perspective.

    #108164
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I am obsessed with “as broadcast” versions… but I make an exception for the end credits, because the forced-on-them broadcast versions suck so much, and I’d rather have the integrity of decent end credits over the integrity of “as broadcast”.

    In fact, I wish all shows put proper end credits on their DVDs.

    #108165
    Andrew
    Participant

    Aside from anything else, ‘as broadcast’ – technically – will usually mean ‘credits shrunk to unreadable side while Strictly Come Fucking is promoted’. Sure, go ahead, put that on the DVD, see what the purists make of that…

    #108166
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I remember a similar discussion on the Doctor Who Restoration Team forum: “So, you want the as-broadcast version of Rose on the DVD? Fine. You want Graham Norton talking all over it then, yeah?”

    It’s always worth remembering that it’s not a black-and-white issue.

    #108269
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    As much as Colin would like it to be.

    #108277

    Who is wrong and who is right? Yellow, brown, black or white? The spaceman he answered ?You?ll no longer mind, I?ve opened your eyes, you?re now colour blind.”

    #108309
    pfm
    Participant

    John, you know if they released the broadcast version with Graham Norton on it that’s the version you’d watch every time…

    I still can’t get over that happening. I had seen ‘Rose’ several times by then (just LOCK ME UP) so it didn’t bother me as far as my own personal experience of the episode went, but it made me feel bad for everyone else watching, especially all the people I had told to watch. My mate had refused to watch the ‘dodgy’ version with me and the fact that he was texting me with ‘what the fuck Graham Norton’s voice, what’s going on??’ during the broadcast made me feel like crying because he wasn’t simply watching it and enjoying it like I had done before. It seems so stupid thinking about it now…it’s cause I was so hyped for the series.

    And, er, FACT – ‘Rose’ is a bonafide classic episode of television.

    #108312
    Somebody
    Participant

    > I remember a similar discussion on the Doctor Who Restoration Team forum: ?So, you want the as-broadcast version of Rose on the DVD? Fine. You want Graham Norton talking all over it then, yeah??

    BBC Scotland had a football match straight afterwards, so they ran a minute or two earlier, didn’t have Norton’s yammering and had no “NEXT TIME” trailer for EotW. That is, therefore, the ORIGINAL BROADCAST VERSION (insert exclamation mark :p)

    #108314
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > ?Rose? several times by then (just LOCK ME UP) so it didn?t bother me as far as my own personal experience of the episode went

    So it didn’t bother you that the version you watched first was unfinished and terrible quality?

    #108336
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Was it really that bad? I remember it feeling a bit jagged, but it didn’t seem all that bad at the time.

    #108346
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Ok, getting to the end of The Writers Tale 2 : Write Harder, and RTD is in the middle of scripting the TEOT two-parter. And it’s actually quite frustrating because he seems to have written 4.17 without any clear idea of what was going to happen in 4.18. He signs off on 4.17 and is still toying with using the Daleks in part 2…

    Doesn’t this strike anyone as a little weird? Why not write 4.17 and 4.18 together and then split them apart naturally?

    I’m perfectly aware that people have their own writing styles and I’m not going to discredit the guy who gave us The Second Coming and Midnight, but sheesh…

    #108349
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > I?m perfectly aware that people have their own writing styles and I?m not going to discredit the guy who gave us The Second Coming and Midnight, but sheesh?

    This is exactly what I thought reading the firs book. The section about Voyage of the Damned was absolutely infuriating because it really gave the impression he was just shitting it out without thinking about anything other than how BRILLIANT Kylie is. Then again, he wrote Midnight even quicker I think, and that was superb.

    But, yeah, his fly by the seat of his pants style definitely isn’t for the faint hearted.

    #108351
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I guess it’s what makes the book so great. It’s a perfect summary of RTD’s tenure on the show. High emotion and utterly manic moments. Much as it would be great to have a Moff version of The Writer’s Tale, I’d daresay it would be much dryer and not nearly as entertaining.

    RTD’s Wrting Process seems to come down to this:

    1) Mull over the episode for months on end, but mainly thinking about the characters with not a huge amount of thought for the actual story.

    2) Think about Russell Tovey

    3) Delay writing. Do 2384 other things instead.

    4) With deadlines approaching, WRITE! And splurge it all out in about a week tops.

    5) Rewrite (or, to be more precise, cut stuff).

    I mean, it clearly works, I just don’t understand how.

    #108353
    Dave
    Participant

    I avoided this thread before and between The End Of Times, and then when I thought about posting it was already an epic.

    I’ve only gotten round to it now because I hate my temp job.

    In short, I agree with Marleen.

    #108356
    pfm
    Participant

    > So it didn?t bother you that the version you watched first was unfinished and terrible quality?

    I wish I hadn’t lost the file so I could check it now but I remember it being broadcast quality and only missing the new Murray Gold opening theme. Anyone know any different? I have a vague memory of the wheelie-bin scene seeming slightly changed, but that might have been for the DVD, not broadcast. If I could be ARSED to check whether the OG forum is archived anywhere then I’d probably find the answer to that question.

    #108360
    Muzzy
    Participant

    > 1) Mull over the episode for months on end, but mainly thinking about the characters with not a huge amount of thought for the actual story.

    > 2) Think about Russell Tovey

    > 3) Delay writing. Do 2384 other things instead.

    > 4) With deadlines approaching, WRITE! And splurge it all out in about a week tops.

    > 5) Rewrite (or, to be more precise, cut stuff).

    > I mean, it clearly works, I just don?t understand how.

    Sounds like my approach to writing my university essays!

    #108362
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > I wish I hadn?t lost the file so I could check it now but I remember it being broadcast quality and only missing the new Murray Gold opening theme. Anyone know any different? I have a vague memory of the wheelie-bin scene seeming slightly changed, but that might have been for the DVD, not broadcast. If I could be ARSED to check whether the OG forum is archived anywhere then I?d probably find the answer to that question.

    The version I watched (after broadcast, I might add, and I’m pretty sure it was the same file everyone had seen) was a really poor encoding, and the whole episode was littered with little unfinished effect shots and temporary sound effects. Not the complete product and infinitely inferior to watching it on TV (which, by the way, is the only place you’re going find ‘broadcast quality’ of anything SD). You know, if it wasn’t for Graham Norton.

    #108365
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >If I could be ARSED to check whether the OG forum is archived anywhere

    It’s not, because Shaun Lyon didn’t want to play any more and took his ball home with him.

    Seriously, if you don’t want to run a place that has *thousands* of users and (probably) *millions* of messages, spanning and encompassing YEARS of peoples’ lives, then why not do the decent thing and hand the database over to someone else? Despite him being the one that hosted it, I don’t think deleting the entire thing was really his right any more.

    #108367
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    I agree wholeheartedly.

    #108399
    pfm
    Participant

    > Despite him being the one that hosted it, I don?t think deleting the entire thing was really his right any more.

    Flippin heck, I never knew he’d done that. You’d think you’d want it to stand as a great memento of those good (and bad) times. I’m really miffed that I can’t go back and read the post-broadcast comments for series 1!!

    #108404
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I mean, it clearly works, I just don?t understand how.

    It’s worth saying, I guess, that Psychoville was written without knowing who their antagonist was. And there’s that Queeg ending, too.

    I can see, as a writer, why you’d avoid the hardest, dullest part of the process if you could – the planning can lack the fire and energy of either ‘having the ideas’ or ‘writing the scenes’ – but I find the method…sorta terrifying. Especally for story-heavy shows. I couldn’t work that way. But I guess plenty of novellists do…

    #108422
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    We’ve sort-of flitted between the two methods when writing Jump Leads. When it first started I seeded all of these ideas that I didn’t really have any real plans for. For example, the “Non-multiversal variable” thing was a broken way of precluding the possibility of meeting doppelgangers of the principle characters because I didn’t want to tell that sort of story. In retrospect I wish I’d just given them, I don’t know, a device on their belt that removed them from the natural ebb and flow of reality, sort of thing.

    But in the last year we’ve done some major planning, and we have a real sense of where the story and the characters are going. Last year I could, for the first time, see how Meaney and Llewellyn’s travels ended. I’ve written that final scene. It’s really refreshing to know where you’re going to take the story and I wish I’d planned it out like this from day one.

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