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  • #124376

    >One of my all-time favourite moments of TV ever: The Doctor opens the TARDIS door to find?it?s just a blue box. It?s genius because it makes us all gasp despite being exactly what happens on the fucking set every day. And the reaction?s played perfectly. Just brilliant.

    That’s not bad, but I just liked him telling off Rose’s mum. Quite satisfying, I found that.

    I still can’t rightly say I like Rose very much–I think she’s stupid and selfish and if I’d had my way I’d have seen her thrown into the Vortex–but I’ve heard a good argument that she was still a pretty good character, despite or even because of these faults. Like her being stupid and selfish and impulsive and arguing with the Doctor and doing things that endangered everyone she claimed to care about–like she did in “Father’s Day”–sort of “woke the Doctor up”, roused him out of what would otherwise be crippling survivor’s guilt.

    Doesn’t excuse her becoming RTD’s fucking Mary-Sue with “The Parting of the Ways”, mind you, but it makes some of the Rose eps more tolerable for me =P .

    Also, um, Tom Baker. He’s pretty awesome. I want an unfeasibly long scarf like his very very badly, along with a copy of his autobiography. I’m also in serious danger of becoming a Fourth Doctor fangirl.

    #124377
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Where are you up to with New Who now, Arlene?

    #124379

    Well, both stations have started to repeat the first series of new Who–one is a coupla eps ahead of the other, so one station is at the second part of the two-parter with the fart monsters and I think the other one is at “The End of the World” or whatever it was called.

    I do hope they show some more of the new stuff–if they don’t bother ringing the rest of the new series to PBS after they went to the trouble to get the first series, I will be well and truly fucking pissed off. I wanna see why everybody’s so hot for David Tennant. (Not that I doubt he’s good, but I wanna see for myself.)

    #124351
    Phil
    Participant

    The Sci-Fi Network carries the new episodes of Who, Arlene. You might want to check their listings. No promises that they’re un-edited, though.

    #124352

    I can’t–no cable TV. But thanks for mentioning it.

    #124458
    pfm
    Participant

    I take it everyone knows about the supposed casting of Ben Kingsley as Davros? Also, they are going to shoot an episode at the Italian studios where Rome (or should I say ‘the bloody fantastic Rome’) was shot. Great news. Kingsley would be the perfect choice for Davros.

    They should definitely do an episode about him before he’s in the wheelchair and deformed, then in the finale he should return as the fuckup we all know and love. In the earlier episode the Doctor shouldn’t know that Ben Kingsley’s character is Davros, and unwittingly he sets him on his way to becoming the Daleks’ creator. Then when they meet again in the finale Davros recognises the 10th Doctor and realises that all along his arch-enemy, his nemesis, was his creator. This sends him insane. I’m guessing we will see Dalek Caan finding and rescuing Davros. Perhaps we will see the FINAL DESTRUCTION of the Daleks. Perhaps Paul McGann will step out of the shower and say ‘fuck me, is there a Time War going on or something?’

    #124461
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Again with the Daleks…

    #124464
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I really like the theory that each series is taking the respective villian for each Doctor:

    First Doctor/Series – Daleks
    Second Doctor/Series – Cybermen
    Third Doctor/Series – The Master
    Fourth Doctor/Series – Davros

    It’s probably just coincidence, but it’s nice anyway. No idea what they’d do for the fifth, though…

    #124468
    pfm
    Participant

    > No idea what they?d do for the fifth, though

    My guess is that they’ll bring back the Cybermen, but this time it will be the real Cybermen as seen in Earthshock, Revenge etc.

    Regarding the Daleks, I think they’d be foolish not to use them one more time, especially seeing as there’s huge potential for a Davros story. What I DON’T want to see is millions of Daleks flying over 2008 London. That was the good thing about the Evolution of the Daleks 2-parter, we only had four. Saying that, watching Parting of the Ways the other day made me realise it IS possible to have loads of Daleks and make it great. The dialogue in that episode is top-notch, RTD, and Eccleston for that matter, at his very best (‘doesn’t it just burn when you face me…’)

    What I would like to see in the series 4 finale is the Doctor in the same situation as POTW where he has the opportunity to wipe out the Daleks but also everyone else around, only this time he isn’t the ‘coward’, he goes and does it (later we find out in a cop-out that Martha managed to rescue the people just before the Doctor blew everything to hell, she then goes down to the planet’s surface and sees the charred remains of the 10th Doctor (perhaps he’s just a bit burnt, this is family viewing after all) in a parallel to series 3 she demands that he regenerates but he just wants to slip away, suddenly Rose steps out of the shower…er, I mean shadows and she takes his blackened hand in hers, he immediately regenerates (into Rupert Penry-Jones from Spooks) thus giving Martha a massive jealousy complex that boringly drives the series 5 narrative, then Martha slits Rose’s throat, the end.

    #124469
    Andrew
    Participant

    > the good thing about the Evolution of the Daleks 2-parter

    Quoted for sheer unlikliness.

    :-p

    #124482
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Just one series without the Daleks would be nice. They completely undermined the Cybermen in Series 2, and were shockingly bad in Series 3.”Dalek” was good, as was “Parting of the Ways”, but it would be nice to have some decent new baddies. And also a few adventures not set in a space-station or Earth.

    #124485

    >then Martha slits Rose?s throat, the end.

    I think you’re my new best friend =P .

    #124488
    pfm
    Participant

    Check this out.

    She looks like she fits in with the team.

    #124489
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    I do hope they give her something decent to do, along with the rest of the team.

    #124490
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Wearing black. How staggeringly original.

    #124498
    pfm
    Participant

    Just thank the gods she isn’t wearing the same red jacket she wore for like every fucking episode of series 3 (I know perfectly well that she didn’t wear it EVERY episode but at this hour in the morning all I can muster, unfortunately, is a crammed comment of that nature, so piss off ;) )

    She looks hot anyway. Too bad she isn’t going to be getting any in the series due to little kids perhaps watching it and being horrified (like they’re not going to be affected by Owen’s antics which I doubt will change in series 2, along with the suggestion that Jack and Ianto ‘comfort’ each other…)

    #124503
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    >Also, um, Tom Baker. He?s pretty awesome. I want an unfeasibly long scarf like his very very badly, along with a copy of his autobiography. I?m also in serious danger of becoming a Fourth Doctor fangirl.

    Just wait until you see him in ‘Talons of Weng-Chiang’. You’ll want to hump him in his Sherlock Holmes get-up. Me and John re-watched it over the weekend, and it’s one of our favourite Who stories ever.

    #124512

    >Just wait until you see him in ?Talons of Weng-Chiang?.

    It’s definitely on my list of Things I Want, Like, Five Minutes Ago. Thanks to my perennial cashflow problems, more than that I cannot gurarantee.

    >You?ll want to hump him in his Sherlock Holmes get-up.

    I’ve seen pictures, yes. Why yes, I am a Tom Baker fangirl; how’d you guess?

    >Me and John re-watched it over the weekend, and it?s one of our favourite Who stories ever.

    I liked the stories that came right after it–“Horror of Fang Rock” (despite the laughable effects for the Monster of the Week, it creates an excellent atmosphere for itself, dark and tense and claustrophobic; also, despite Leela’s stilted savage-speek, I liked her much more when she got to shut up the Screaming Secretary) and “The Invisible Enemy” (a neato bunch of ideas behind this one, like exploring the microcosm in the Doctor’s head, altho’ it faltered a bit when the disease jumped from microcosmic to macrocosmic and became, well, the vaguely prawn-y Monster of the Week. And K9 was less irritating than I thought it’d be, honestly). Next up, after something called “The Making of Doctor Who”, should be “Image of Fendahl”.

    #124513
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    >Leela?s stilted savage-speek

    She was at the mercy of the scripts, really. She’s very good in Talons “You ask me so you can tell me”, which deconstructs the Doctor-Companion relationship in old Who very well. She’d still fit in with the new show, IMO.

    #124516

    >She was at the mercy of the scripts, really.

    I’ve noticed something like that. She spoke like a complete moron in “Horror of Fang Rock”, but by “Invisible Enemy” had graduated to using contractions, like how actual people talk. And in the next story she’ll probably be back to her “Me Leela, you Doctor” talk again. **sigh** I like her occasional badassery (like in “Robots of Death”), I just wish the writers would’ve let her eventually learn to talk normally.

    #124518
    Dave
    Participant

    They do, big words and everything, in Dimensions In Time

    #124526

    >They do, big words and everything, in Dimensions In Time

    So I have to wait that long for the writers to cut Leela a break? Le sigh.

    #124527
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    If it makes you feel better, Arlene, the only time Louise Jameson permitted Leela to scream was in ‘The Talons of Weng-Chiang’. She kept pushing back on the writers on other episodes, insisting that ‘Leela wouldn’t scream’.

    #124528
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    My aunt is an old school friend of Louise Jameson. Fact.

    #124534
    pfm
    Participant

    Seems like Peter Davison may be appearing in a Children In Need special. I’m guessing Tennant will be in it too, but what it will be about only fuck knows. Apparently Moffat is writing it!

    #124539
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Arlene, Rose is really not a Mary-Sue, you know. But we’ll let that one slide for now ;-)

    Meanwhile, just wait until you get Romana. Just you wait.

    #124541
    pfm
    Participant

    Rose is great in the first series, crap in the second (although she’s still severely screwable…)

    #124546
    Dave
    Participant

    I had a helluva crush on Sophie Aldred at a formative time in my life. I still love Ace.

    #124558

    Um, I think someone accidentally edited my last post when they wanted to reply to it. It’s all right, mind you–I know it was accidental–but I know what my last post here looked like and it doesn’t look the same now =P

    #124562
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Haha!

    #124569
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    Sorry, that was me. I am a MORON. Here’s my post below;
    >So far on my list of companions I like: Sarah Jane Smith, Leela, Jo Grant (she?s like a puppy, honestly?half the time she?s useful, and the other half she ends up making things worse, but she?s all bright eyes and eager grin and ?Did I help, Doctor? Did I did I huh huh did I was I a helper did I help?? and you know the Doctor can only pat her head and say, ?Well, Jo?at least you tried?.)

    >Companions I?m not sure about: Captain Jack Harkness (he?s either pretty neat or an embarrassment to the show?can?t decide which), K9 (I just haven?t seen enough of it in action, but I want it to work, I really do)

    >Just don?t ask about: Rose Tyler. (Seriously, don?t ask. She?s RTD?s Mary-Sue. Gr.)

    There?s a great story about Katy Manning bumbling in late for her audition for Jo, and chain-smoking all the way through. They loved her.

    IMO, Captain Jack is brilliant, and brings guaranteed entertainment. You can do very well without K9, but he?s cute when he?s around; it?s a nice idea. I think you?ve misjudged Rose, as she?s a much more complex character than she initially appears. But anyway?Romana. Yes indeed.

    I’ve deleted your original post, because it’s now not representing what you said at all. Sorry. I, I…shame mode.

    #124535

    ‘S all right, happens to the best of us.

    So I was watching “Image of the Fendahl” and I noticed Leela actually got to be clever for once–I mean, properly clever! The Doctor was technobabbling on about sodium chloride in a particularly confusing way and Leela translated: “Salt kills it [the monsters]”. Of course, this very likely means she’ll be back to “Ungawa” in the next story…

    Also, the story ain’t half chilling in places, innit? I remember a bit where one of the scientists in the thrall of the Fendahl asked for a gun. The Doctor said it wouldn’t do any good against the Fendahl, and the scientist said the gun was for himself; and the Doctor actually fetched him a gun with a “Sorry” as he fled.

    #124623

    Three pretty good classic Doctor Who stories later:

    “Invasion of Time”. Not bad–very complex, but it holds together quite well, I thought, and rewards repeat viewing. Didn’t like how they got rid of Leela–look, Andred was kinda cute, but that was, almost literally, introduced out of nowhere in the last few minutes of the story. At least when Jo fell for someone, the viewer actually found out about it before the story ended. But besides that, I rather liked it. (Also, Tom Baker’s raised voice? Fearsome.)

    “The Ribos Operation”. Aaaaaand the introduction of Romana. Well, in this story I could see where she might become awesome later on, but for now she was kind of a smug and insufferable know-it-all. Just like me, in fact, only prettier. Still, you can see where they’ve started to develop a decent chemistry.

    “The Pirate Planet”. Or “Perfect classic Who on a stick”. Just saw this one tonight–the Doctor is awesome, Romana is awesome, the plot is pretty awesome and kept me guessing when I wasn’t laughing. I’d heard good things about this story–indeed, I fully expected good things because I knew Douglas Adams wrote it–but I had no idea just how good it was.

    #126034

    Well it’s official….Rose is to return, but I can’t decide if this is a good thing or not.

    #126038
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster
    #126056

    In other and altogether less Mary Sue-tastic news… how’s about this?

    Sean Pertwee wants ‘who’ role

    News Dated: 30/11/2007

    Sean Pertwee (son of The 3rd Doctor; Jon Pertwee), wants a part in Doctor Who.

    According to reports from The Sun newspaper, the actor would play The Doctor if asked, and has gone on record as saying:

    ?I?d definitely do it if I was asked and I?d definitely do something in the show such as a guest character.?

    Sean even admitted putting a bet on himself to play the next Doctor:

    ?I went to the bookies after a few beers to put a ?50 bet on myself”. ?Word got round that I must have inside information as the chavs and kids in baseball hats in my area of London started putting bets on me. It was all quite embarrassing.?

    Even Sean’s son; Alfred is a fan of the show:

    ?Alfred is six next month and loves Doctor Who. He also watches re-runs of the ones my dad was in. He?s proud of his grandfather though he never met him.?

    [Sources: DWO; The Sun newspaper – website]

    #126069
    #126080
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    > Lily is multi-talented.

    I disagree. A fuck-load.

    > She comes from more of a TV background than a musical one.

    It’s DEFINETELY NOT a musical background…

    > we hope she’ll take over from Catherine [Tate] as Dr Who’s assistant.

    For fucks sake, Bad to worse…

    What is it about hiring directionless bints to be Doctor Who’s Assistants?

    #126081
    Dave
    Participant

    >What is it about hiring directionless bints to be Doctor Who?s Assistants?

    Paris Hilton for series 5?

    #126083
    pfm
    Participant

    Now here’s an exclusive – I am the next assistant AND the 11th Doctor.

    #126086
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    ARLENE, ROSE TYLER IS NOT A MARY-SUE. END OF.

    #126095

    Dawwww, Seb–I may be wonderful, but I know in my heart you’re wrong =P .

    #126114
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Seriously, aside from fancying men, I don’t think there’s a single personality trait that Russell shares with the character. Therefore, you just can’t say that she’s a projection of himself into an idealised situation.

    In some ways, she’s a perhaps unrealistically “good” character – although I’d argue that she’s not perfect, and of course, bad things happen to her, and she doesn’t always win the day – and I can understand why she irritates you in so many ways; but she’s still not a “Mary Sue”, by any definition of the term whatsoever. There are plenty of things you can call her – but that simply isn’t one of them.

    #126119
    Al
    Participant
    #126121
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Maybe they’ll edit out the crap storylines and dull characters while they’re at it…

    #126129
    Andrew
    Participant

    Yeah, what Seb said.

    Re: Torchowod – how the hell does this help shake off the “It’s childish and hides it by chucking in unnecessary sex and violence for the sake of it?” Now the fucking stores CAN’T be allowed to rely on being adult. Jesus…

    #126130
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I look forward to a post-watershed The Sarah Jane Adventures where Sarah comes so hard she forgets where she is.

    #126132
    penny
    Participant

    >I look forward to a post-watershed The Sarah Jane Adventures where Sarah comes so hard she forgets where she is.

    *rolls eyes*
    It’s spelt cums not comes.
    *Tuts*
    Plus, it’s very unlikely to happen…sorry to burst your bubble. But hey, you never know…the BBC need people to watch it’s channels such as BBC 3, so maybe might happen on that channel for ya!
    Good luck you naughty filthy minded man! :D

    #126134
    Phil
    Participant

    >Good luck you naughty filthy minded man!

    You’ll eventually find this phrase chiseled on John’s tombstone.

    #126136
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Re: Torchowod – how the hell does this help shake off the ?It?s childish and hides it by chucking in unnecessary sex and violence for the sake of it?? Now the fucking stores CAN?T be allowed to rely on being adult. Jesus?

    Yes, but judging from the reports coming from the Press Screening of the first episode of the new series, it looks like the Production Team have taken a lot of the criticisms people had concerning the first series on board. A lot of people in the UK press are getting very excited about Torchwood Series 2.

    Here in the States, however, the media continues to utterly love the first series. I enjoyed it – certainly enough to import the UK version of the box set when it came out – but it wasn’t without its flaws. I’m still looking forward to Series 2, though.

    #126138
    John Hoare
    Participant

    It?s spelt cums not comes.

    You can spell it either way.

    #126140
    Phil
    Participant

    For all the other things I expect a woman to do with it, the least I can do is allow her a choice of how to spell it.

    #126143
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    OH-HO-HO-HO-HO-HO!

    *steals joke for use in his comic*

    *Disregards joke, because it’s a bit blue for his comic*

    #126157

    >Seriously, aside from fancying men, I don?t think there?s a single personality trait that Russell shares with the character. Therefore, you just can?t say that she?s a projection of himself into an idealised situation.

    That’s not a Mary-Sue, that’s a self-insert. The two are found together in a lot of shitty fiction, but they’re not one and the same. The definition of a Mary-Sue I’m using is a character whose actions–indeed, whose very presence–distorts the personalities of established characters (**ahem**the Doctor in “Bad Wolf”/”Parting of the Ways” and “Father’s Day”) and sometimes even the established rules of a fictional universe, because the author thinks so highly of that character that (s)he can’t bear to put her in real trouble or give her a real character flaw (if she has a flaw, it’s usually either ignored by the author and other characters or celebrated as “cute” and “endearing”).

    >In some ways, she?s a perhaps unrealistically ?good? character – although I?d argue that she?s not perfect, and of course, bad things happen to her, and she doesn?t always win the day

    Exactly! “The Doctor is in love with me and only me 4 evah n evah n evah and I nearly destroyed Earth but it was no big deal ‘cos the Doctor loves me sooooo much and everybody says I’m so smart and cool and the perfect companion and liek totally full of Gurl Powah! There were other companions–but let’s face it, I’m the only one that matters now.”

    Incidentally–I tried filling out this Mary-Sue test with Rose in mind. Even after I looked over the test and revised some of my answers, she still scored a hundred–and a fifty tops the score chart. Even given that I’m a grouchy old bitch and can’t stand Rose, there’s no way that’s all just me and my bias =P .

    #126158
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    Hmm…I got 31, and to be honest, I’m having trouble working out why you’re singling out Rose for this accusation. Surely nearly all DW companions show these traits? Also, DW is a kid’s show; one that is enjoyed by adults, but a kid’s show all the same. If the character development sometimes seems a bit simplistic, that’s probably because we’re talking prime-time BBC One family entertainment.

    #126159
    Seph
    Participant

    I agree Rose is a Sue, but Mary Sue tests aren’t exactly the most reliable thing on the planet, i’ve put real people through those kind of tests before and scored over 200.

    #126161
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Sarah Jane, then, is a Mary Sue. So is Martha. So was Adric, and Romana, and K9, Jamie, Tegan, Mickey, Ace…

    We could go on. By that definition, pretty much every companion in the history of Doctor Who who isn’t Barbara, Ian or Susan is a Mary Sue.

    #126164
    Andrew
    Participant

    The more I read up on ‘Mary-Sue’, the more uncomfortable I am with it as a useful critical term. At times the definition seems so wide, and then close to various useful storytelling archetypes, that it just seems like a snobby way to dismiss anything the critic doesn’t care for, or -as Tanya says – designed for anything other than the complex. (Not keen on gender implications, either, regardless of how it’s been adapted.)

    Isn’t The Doctor a Mary-Sue in, say, the recent CiN special? Tragic backstory, guilt but not guilty, and conduit-for-the-author-y as hell.

    #126167
    pfm
    Participant

    > it just seems like a snobby way to dismiss anything the critic doesn?t care for

    100% absolutely bang on the money. And the use of the term makes said critic feel smug and important. The broadness of the term reminds me of excuses that people give for why something is ‘against their religion’.

    #126173
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    See also: ‘Jump the Shark’. A totally arbitrary criticism with no actual meaning what-so-ever.

    #126174
    Phil
    Participant

    Right. Neither serves any use whatsoever as a “useful critical term” (a distinction Andrew coined nicely). They can be used to express an individual’s misgivings about something…serving as a kind of short-hand to save a tedious explanation…but, personally, I think tedious explanations are important, sometimes, as they help the speaker work out precisely what it is he or she means to say. It also forces them to work through their own logic, during which process they should be able to determine whether it is sound or not.

    None of this relates to Arlene, I should point out. I’m just not a fan of these quasi-literary tags people apply to things for the sake of them having to reach a conclusion themselves.

    #126175
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Personally, I thought Phil’s post was excellent, but ruined by the blatant deus ex machina at the end.

    #126176
    Phil
    Participant

    >for the sake of them having

    Ugh. For the sake of them NOT having. But I won’t edit it for fear of losing the thrust of Cappsy’s support.

    #126177
    pfm
    Participant

    ‘Torchwood II’ starts on the 16th January in the current Heroes slot. That means it will probably end on 9th April (unless it takes a week off or has a double-length finale). That means Who series 4 is likely to start on the 12th or 19th April (19th probably).

    Oh the joy.

    #126178
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Why can’t the series cross over in the schedules?

    #126197
    pfm
    Participant

    > Why can?t the series cross over in the schedules?

    Technically they can, obviously, but you just know the BBC won’t do it.

    #126242
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    the author thinks so highly of that character that (s)he can?t bear to put her in real trouble or give her a real character flaw (if she has a flaw, it?s usually either ignored by the author and other characters or celebrated as ?cute? and ?endearing?).

    You don’t call nearly being sucked into an eternal void and ending up trapped in a shitty dystopian parallel universe being “in real trouble”?

    Blimey, how crap is YOUR life, then? ;-)

    #118300
    Seph
    Participant

    “You don?t call nearly being sucked into an eternal void and ending up trapped in a shitty dystopian parallel universe being ?in real trouble??”

    Haven’t seen the episode, but if she gets sucked in whilst in an act of selflessness and then everyone else spands forever angsting over her, then it’s a classic Sue trademark (unless you’re Trish from Devil May Cry, she gets away with it because the main character’d never sleep with her :p)

    The problem with Mary Sue is there isn’t a real concrete definition, only behaviour that indicates Sueness, and people are more or less likely to see it depending on wether they love or hate the character.

    #118314
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    No, the problem is that it’s completely meaningless and stupid.

    #118317
    Andrew
    Participant

    > No, the problem is that it?s completely meaningless and stupid.

    Yes.

    #118588
    Dave
    Participant

    Doctor Who cartoon that never was:

    http://www.cbc.ca/planetofthedoctor/tb_gallery.html

    #118678
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Charlie Brooker’s Blink review

    Brooker nailing it as usual.

    #118683
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Brooker nailing it as usual.

    He’s also correct, in that article, about the amazingly poweful Buy A (a drama which I hope puts a stop to the reactionary ‘Bulger Killers Must Be Locked Up for Eternity’ emails I keep being forwarded by people who seem to know me, yet clearly think my politics are only slightly to the left of Hitler). And about Russell Brand, whose radio shows/podcasts have really endeared me to him this year.

    #118688
    John Hoare
    Participant

    He’s absolutely on the button about Russell Brand. He was by far the best presenter in Comic Relief last year, too, beating all of the usual suspects hands down. The kind of person who – like all the best people – make what they’re doing look absolutely effortless.

    Although I like him in a ballbag-and-dinkle mode too.

    #118690
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    After reading the Brooker piece on Saturday, I went and watched the Brand “Naziboy” documentary on Youtube. Bloody good it was, as well, and made me warm to him a lot more.

    His football column in the Grauniad is a bit rubbish, though – although I at least like the fact that he’s out there as someone who’s “alternative”, long-haired and somewhat fey, but quite publicly knowledgable about football.

    Andrew : on the subject of Boy A, did you see the recent Street ep that dealt with the same subject?

    #118691
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Andrew : on the subject of Boy A, did you see the recent Street ep that dealt with the same subject?

    I did. Poor Jimmy “My Utter Idol” McGovern – I imagine him working long and hard on that script, only for Channel 4’s zeitgeist to be a week ahead…

    I thought the Mark Benton-starring episode was the highlight of the second series, though; and not even a McGovern script!

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