Doctor Whoooooooooooo, hey! Doctor Who!

[Ian Symes]

New discussion thread for Who – the old one was getting too massive.

My opinion: meh.

Topic

[pfm]

> She has a lovely bum.

She’s got a lovely everything…is what I would say, if I were allowed… The wire work parts…and the black suit, bloody hell… Though her looks are about the only thing that’s carried her over the last couple of years! Her acting is just OK, to dodgy. She can’t seem to be able to do even her own voice in a role, let alone an American accent (for Bionic Woman).

[Ben Paddon]

The only thing I really didn’t like about the episode was the patently ridiculous burglary at the start of the episode. The security system that rather conveniently doesn’t bother to protect the top of the artifact, which sits directly beneath a circular opening in the ceiling FOR SOME REASON; the rather ridiculous placement of the four guards (all facing in opposite directions, away from the artifact); the quite, quite stupid Mission: Impossible zip-line and double-fistpump when the switch is made; Lady Christina taking her mask off when she’s still in the museum; the bus-driver happily taking “diamond” earrings that could just as easily been cheap plastic ones from Claire’s…

Once the bus had made it’s rather silly journey, the episode was much better. Ignoring, of course, the Police officer who has a grudge against Lady Christina and who calls in UNIT.

[Dave]

>zip-line and double-fistpump

Crikey

[TheLeen]

Watched it last night, didn’t like it much. For reasons other people have already stated.

[Ben Paddon]

I enjoyed it overall, I just think it could’ve been stronger. Which is pretty much how I feel about every RTD episode sans “Midnight”.

(And, more recently, “Love & Monsters”, which I really hated at original broadcast but has since grown on me. It requires a bit of analysis, does that one. Most of it isn’t happening, strictly speaking. Very interesting.)

[ChrisM]

Dana SkRani

Sorry.

Interesting if it turns out to be true though.

[si]

In…teresting.

[JamesTC]

Hurray, a return for a terribe character whose only 3 stories are all generally poorly recieved, hurray.

[Ben Paddon]

Dana SkRani

Sorry.

Interesting if it turns out to be true though.

[ChrisM]

I don’t think I’ve seen any episodes with the Rani. I know she is an evil Time Lady of some sort who inexplicably has the word ‘The’ before her name (suggesting it’s not a name but a vocation? Time to get out my internet investigation cap methinks.)

I was aware of the character though, and mainly interested seeing a familiar name and Gillian Anderson’s involvement.

[ChrisM]

Ok.

Actually the wiki background information on the character seemed quite interesting, but it usually does. Evil scientist, experiementation, etc.

And ‘rani’ is the Hindi word for ‘queen’ apparently.

[JamesTC]

Just think of the Master, make him a woman and 1-dimensional, there you have The Rani!

[Dave]

>Just think of the Master, make him a woman and 1-dimensional, there you have The Rani!

To be fair, the Rani is infinitely more complex a character than the Ainley Master in the corresponding stories. None of the Rani’s stories are good, this is true, but Kate O’Mara is by no means bad. Well no one comes out of Dimensions In Time with their head held high, but she’s the least annoying Time Lord in Mark Of The Rani, she makes a better Mel than Mel does and she does things for a reason, rather than just to be evil.

[JamesTC]

Oh it is nothing to do with Kate O’Mara, just bad scripting, I mean in ‘Mark of the Rani’ why the hell was the Master dressed up as a scare crow and how the hell did he know the Doctor would arrive at that specific location. The less said of ‘Time on the Rani’ and ‘Dimensions in Time’ the better.

[Muzzy]

> The less said of ?Time on the Rani? and ?Dimensions in Time? the better.

*Time AND The Rani ;-)

It would be interesting to see what they could do with the character in the new series. And see how they explain that SOMEONE ELSE managed to survive the Time War along with The Doctor, The Master, the Dalek race and Davros. Pretty soon there will have been absolutely no point in having the Time War at all. In fact, if they bring back the rest of the Time Lords as well at some point, they could even have The Second Time War in time for Series 6. Joy.

[JamesTC]

>absolutely no point in having the Time War at all.

Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

[Andrew]

> Hurray, a return for a terribe character whose only 3 stories are all generally poorly recieved, hurray.

> Oh it is nothing to do with Kate O?Mara, just bad scripting

Okay, I have an idea. Stick with me, because this is gonna be awfully daring:

They should get someone else to write the new Rani material. Someone who wasn’t involved with the other stories.

Can’t believe nobody else thought of it! :-)

[JamesTC]

So wait you thing a bland character that was poorly recieved in 3 stories deserves a return when other enemies that are well recieved and are begging for a return are not, rather odd, what about the Sea Devils, what about the Ice Warriors (though I’m not a fan of those), what about the Meddling Monk.

Or wait a minute, wait just one minute, how about making up an original enemy, it might just be a crazy idea but it might work.

[Andrew]

Yeah, because there’s no original enemies in the whole of new Who…

I didn’t say anything one way or the other about what the character ‘deserved’, nor about preferring this character being used over another one, old or new. I wasn’t aware it was an either/or deal, where this choice – apparently made by intelligent, creative minds – somehow jumped a queue of ‘worthier’ fictitious beings and took their entitled place at the party.

It’s just the kind of reaction that makes me nod with agreement when Davies takes a pop at online fandom. I just don’t think ‘poorly executed by someone else’ equals ‘is perpetually doomed to failure’. And I don’t believe in the fictional character queue.

My opinion on remakes is that you’re better off remaking a bad movie than a good one. Because you stand far more chance of bringing something original and inspired to the table without pissing anyone off. I think this holds more-or-less true for Who adversaries. I have my issues with the Sontaran two-parter, but I thought the execution of the enemy race was actually very good.

Which is to say: I don’t care much for the ‘people more brilliant than I am are WRONG and I know this immediately based on the way they’ve chosen to do a thing I don’t know much about yet’ school of criticism. I’m more into the ‘wait and see and try not to overreact’ thing.

[JamesTC]

>Yeah, because there?s no original enemies in the whole of new Who?

Where did I say there isn’t, they do not have many good ones if you ask me though, the Ood are fantastic and I quite like the Judoon, the Adipose are cute, outside them I can’t think of a good new enemy though I would rather they would try and make a new enemy than use an old one, they seem to be tied to returning old enemies so I just think a good enemy should be returned so you can hit the ground running instead of re-making a character to make it better.

>I wasn?t aware it was an either/or deal

Neither was I

>where this choice – apparently made by intelligent, creative minds – somehow jumped a queue of ?worthier? fictitious beings and took their entitled place at the party.

Worthier was a poor choice of words, hmm, more interesting, more popular, scarier for the kiddies, they are reasons to choose an enemy like the Ice Warriors or the Sea Devils over the Rani. Oh and it would just add to the list of things that survived the Time War when 4 years ago the Doctor was the only survivor, I mean 1 Dalek survives, fine, a Dalek ship survived and built an army, ok, a Dalek group hid in the void, oh, The Master survived using a fob watch, eh, Davros survived by being pulled out by a Dalek and built an army, hmm, do you really thing adding “Then the Rani survived” would be good? I think it would make it even more ludicrous every time the Doctor says he is the only one left.

>My opinion on remakes is that you?re better off remaking a bad movie than a good one.

You are better off making a new film all together.

>I just don?t think ?poorly executed by someone else? equals ?is perpetually doomed to failure?

Neither do I but if a film was bad you will always go into the sequal thinking it will be bad, atleast that is the case for me.

[pfm]

All this whining when, in fact, Moffat can do what the merry fuck he likes regarding The Rani because he’s going to be running the show and you’re not. Ice Warriors? They’ll be back. Sea Devils? Yep. Romana? I’d say so, if we haven’t already seen her – Christina?? The Rani and/or other Time Lords/Ladies? Probably. ANYTHING’S POSSIBLE.

e.g. The Master generates a portal leading back into the Time War. He evilly offers The Doctor the chance to go back and stop himself from ending the Time War, therefore saving their people. The Doctor takes the chance and goes through, emerging on a space station orbiting Skaro. He spies on his 8th incarnation and Lucie Miller (as played by Sheridan Smith). Somehow he saves Lucie from the end he always thought she’d had (some bricks falling on her or something), he explains the situation to her and sends her back to the portal so she can avoid McGann’s Doctor. He watches McGann mourn Lucie and promise to himself that his next incarnation would take influence from her northern accent. Then The Rani appears and the long and short of it is that SHE was the one that was really responsible for wiping out the Time Lords. All the Doctor’s guilt over the War is suddenly lifted and the slate is clean for Matt Smith’s Doctor. Even though he can’t save the Time Lords he grabs The Rani and drags her through the portal back to 2010 Earth. She escapes with The Master, after she shoots Lucie. Now The Rani is BACK.

[TheLeen]

The Master generates a portal leading back into the Time War. He evilly offers The Doctor the chance to go back and stop himself from ending the Time War, therefore saving their people. The Doctor takes the chance and goes through, emerging on a space station orbiting Skaro. He spies on his 8th incarnation and Lucie Miller (as played by Sheridan Smith). Somehow he saves Lucie from the end he always thought she?d had (some bricks falling on her or something), he explains the situation to her and sends her back to the portal so she can avoid McGann?s Doctor. He watches McGann mourn Lucie and promise to himself that his next incarnation would take influence from her northern accent. Then The Rani appears and the long and short of it is that SHE was the one that was really responsible for wiping out the Time Lords. All the Doctor?s guilt over the War is suddenly lifted and the slate is clean for Matt Smith?s Doctor. Even though he can?t save the Time Lords he grabs The Rani and drags her through the portal back to 2010 Earth. She escapes with The Master, after she shoots Lucie. Now The Rani is BACK.

WHOA.

[Dave]

>WHOA.

That’s Doctor Whoa to you.

[Andrew]

> > My opinion on remakes is that you?re better off remaking a bad movie than a good one.

> You are better off making a new film all together.

Not quantifiably true at all. The Fly remake is a masterpiece, Cronenberg’s Rabid is interesting but kinda rubbish. There’s nothing definitive that proves that new stuff always beats reworked stuff. Shakespeare’s all adaptations and remakes.

Besides which, back with Who, including stuff from the canon isn’t an automatic lack or originality. It’s being part of a long-running series.

> > I just don?t think ?poorly executed by someone else? equals ?is perpetually doomed to failure?

> Neither do I but if a film was bad you will always go into the sequal thinking it will be bad, atleast that is the case for me.

In isolation, sure. but knowing some of the key differences – 20 years distance, wholly different creative team and cast – really should inform that opinion to some degree, shouldn’t it?

[JamesTC]

I liked the original The Fly, just as much as the remake I would say, it has been a while since I saw it though, I still have memories of the end were he is on the spiders web shouting for help.

[Phil1034]

All these rumours of the Rani (that could be the episode title; ‘Rumours of The Rani’) are a load of toss anyway. Just like when The Sun reported Footballers Wives’ Zoe Lucker was supposed to be playing the Rani back in Season 3 I think. She ain’t coming back, of that I am certain. Although if she did, she must turn people into trees again.

[JamesTC]

Well yes they are almost certainly a load of rubbish, just The Sun with a slow news day and an “insider” probably.
Moffat has said that he doesn’t want to return enemies in an interview hasn’t he?

[Andrew]

> I liked the original The Fly, just as much as the remake I would say

Fair enough. But the remake is, for me, a significantly better piece of filmmaking – screenplay, depth, subtexts, performances. The original is a disposable schlocker, the remake is ‘about’ something.

[Muzzy]

> Moffat has said that he doesn?t want to return enemies in an interview hasn?t he?

Yes and RTD said he wouldn’t be bringing the Master back again after the end of Series 3 but…

[JamesTC]

>The original is a disposable schlocker, the remake is ?about? something.

I can see the point but when watching a film about a man turning into a fly I don’t want it to be about something, I just want to be entertained with what is an interesting concept.

[Pete Part Three]

Yeah, who needs themes?

[Dave]

“I have strange thoughts when I’m awake.”
“Yeah, they’re called themes.”

[Ben Paddon]

Yes and RTD said he wouldn?t be bringing the Master back again after the end of Series 3 but?

But by the same token, RTD was told by the Beeb to stop misleading fans after the whole Blue Peter competition winner thing, because they were concerned about people getting pissed off about people misleading them.

(* To the extent that, when a friend of mine got the bus home and that fat guy from “The Real Hustle” stepped on to “check peoples’ tickets”, he couldn’t get off at his stop because the show’s director said it’d look unrealistic if he was on the bus at the start of the shot and off the bus again at the end of it.)

[ChrisM]

I hope they paid him for the inconvenience.

[Muzzy]

That’s quite sad if it’s true. Does no-one want to be surprised anymore? :-(

[Andrew]

> I can see the point but when watching a film about a man turning into a fly I don?t want it to be about something, I just want to be entertained with what is an interesting concept.

Well..erm…wow. Just…wow.

[Phil1034]

> Moffat has said that he doesn?t want to return enemies in an interview hasn?t he?

Just to confuse the ‘will Moffat use any old foes?’ debate even further; RTD says in one of his ‘Writer’s Tale’ e-mails to Ben Cook that he was surprised after his initial hand-over meetings with the Moff that there WASN’T a no old monsters rule. Of course things could have changed since then. To quote JNT, “one is tempted to say Who knows…?”

[pfm]

> I don?t want it to be about something, I just want to be entertained with what is an interesting concept.

You are John Hoare.

[Dave]

Best fansite URL ever:

Home

[TheLeen]

Who else read that as Doctor Whore Views? No one? I see.

[Dave]

>Who else read that as Doctor Whore Views? No one? I see

That is why I posted it.

[Ben Paddon]

Pen Island.

[Seb Patrick]

Powergen Italia

[si]

Hang on, let me dig out that edition of QI…

[Danny Stephenson]

Therapist Finder. :S

[Squeaky Gibson]

Found it a bit boring, was no way as epic as Journey’s End. the Water of Mars looks like another filler episode, until the 2 part finale that has links back to Human Nature/Family of Blood.

[pfm]

RTD made it pretty clear that Planet of the Dead was the last ‘romp’ style episode so I’m guessing WoM will contain some important stuff, and people will DIE mwahaha!

[Andrew]

> the Water of Mars looks like another filler episode

‘Filler’s’ a bit unfair since ‘self-contained’ is what’s really meant. Blink ain’t filler!

I don’t need Huge Arc Importantness to make the next Doctor Who work. But I would like it to be, well, significantly better than POTD. Which I found utterly feeble, and genuinely less interesting or entertaining than…well even my previous lows, The Long Game and Partners In Crime, which WERE arc-relevant stories.

[ChrisM]

Some interesting Doctor Who spoiler pics here. Quite a large clue to future plot developments I warn you.

http://io9.com/5291509/your-first-look-at-doctor-whos-next-big-guest-stars

[Pete Part Three]

Timothy Dalton should be in every TV programme. There should be a law.

[Author]

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