Garbage World into an episode?

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  • #232011

    Bargain Bin Holly

    You think an adaption of the Garbage World part from the Better Than Life novel could make a good episode?

    Frankly, reading it for the first time, as someone who’s always been accustomed to the television show for years, I was quite surprised Rob and Doug wrote a definitive account of what happened to Earth. Of course, humankind’s current state is left a mystery after Earth farts its way out of the solar system, but still.

    You think it could work as a single episode, a special, or do you think it only could work in the novel.

    I got interested in this after I read that White Hole from Series IV was originally supposed to include Garbage World but couldn’t due to budget constraints apparently. I’m glad they didn’t, cause I think the plot would’ve gotten too packed with Holly having a 12,000 IQ, Red Dwarf nearing a white hole, and Lister being trapped on Garbage World all at the same time, it would’ve been a mess.

    #232012

    bloodteller

    >I got interested in this after I read that White Hole from Series IV was originally supposed to include Garbage World but couldn’t due to budget constraints apparently. I’m glad they didn’t, cause I think the plot would’ve gotten too packed with Holly having a 12,000 IQ, Red Dwarf nearing a white hole, and Lister being trapped on Garbage World all at the same time, it would’ve been a mess.

    if i recall correctly, White Hole was a replacement, separate script created after Rob and Doug were told their script based solely on the Garbage World section wouldn’t be feasible.

    #232014

    Dax101

    Yeah on the Official site that says Rob and Doug did bring up the idea of garbage world to Ed Bye (cockroaches and all) but he quickly shot it down.

    Now days i don’t think Doug is all that fussed about the novels like he and Rob were back in the 90s.

    I think the closest was referencing one of the songs in series XII that was mentioned in the book, but personally i don’t know how i feel about Doug turning it into another Lister written Song

    #232015

    Plastic Percy

    I just don’t think it would work as there’s not really an ending you can give it. The novels even sidestep it by having Lister set up his vague plan of towing it back to the solar system but that’s quickly forgotten due to his death and exile to the backwards universe.

    #232017

    bloodteller

    his plan to “tow the Earth back to the solar system” is a bit bollocks as well, isn’t it? there’s no way a ship like Red Dwarf would be able to tug an entire planet along, surely.

    maybe that was the whole point, that it was another futile plan just like his plan to get a farm on Fiji?

    #232020

    Flap Jack

    I think revealing what happened to Earth, especially when it’s so bleak, would seriously undermine the show.

    Because sure, we know that they’ll never make to Earth and find something hopeful, but the lingering possibility that they might gives Red Dwarf at least a glimmer of optimism in its premise.

    Doing Garbage World on TV would just make their situation too real, making it clear that there is no human race anymore, and their only purpose is to run down the clocks on their lives. You could maybe do that as the absolute end to the series, but you couldn’t go back to episodic comedy adventures after that bombshell.

    And the “Lister spends decades barely managing to survive, completely alone – then is reunited with his friends for mere hours before dying” aspect. JFC, that was rough. I thought that was too dark for a novel, let alone a sitcom. No way would they adapt that part. I’m actually feeling slightly upset just recalling it.

    #232025

    bloodteller

    >And the “Lister spends decades barely managing to survive, completely alone – then is reunited with his friends for mere hours before dying” aspect. JFC, that was rough. I thought that was too dark for a novel, let alone a sitcom. No way would they adapt that part. I’m actually feeling slightly upset just recalling it.

    this was part of what i really liked about the novels, personally. (i prefer them over the show tbh)
    there’s always this really bleak feel of tragedy- even when Lister gets back to Earth, it’s nothing more than a garbage dump and there’s nothing there for him anymore, no humans, no family, nothing. even when they escape a nightmarish video game that’s seeping away at their life, they’re all too frail and weak to even celebrate their victory against the nigh-impossible odds. the closest they ever get to a happy ending in the novels is in Backwards when Lister finally realizes that maybe Red Dwarf was the home he’d been looking for all this time and that the bunch of misfits he’d ended up marooned with he cared more about than any family he’d ever had.

    the darkness of the novels really appeals to me, for some reason. i don’t really know how to explain it, i just like it i guess?

    #232027

    bloodteller

    rimmer getting painfully melted by the Apocalypse virus in Backwards while being conscious the whole time was a bit much, even for me though. the description of it being “pain beyond pain. a million agonies. and he was still conscious.” didn’t exactly help, either. that’s just a tad too brutal

    #232030

    Katydid

    That’s Rob Grant for you.

    #232033

    Plastic Percy

    He gets a less horrific, although more flippant, fate in the audiobook of Backwards that cuts out the Gunmen of the Apocalypse scenes. His lightbee is blown out of Starbug during the Simulant attack and Kryten is crushed by falling debris.

    #232034

    bloodteller

    yeah, i did listen to the Backwards audiobook. it’s a shame it wasn’t like that in the actual book, as the Gunmen scenes felt like torture overkill on top of everything else the posse went through.

    i do like the absolute desperation of some of the Gunmen stuff though- lister and cat still trying to fight back to buy Kryten just a second more time despite the agony they’re both in is very intense.

    #232035

    Dax101

    If they did garbage world it wouldn’t necessarily have to be earth. Like with White Hole you could loosely adapt it to make it work to the show.

    But then again personally I thought M-Corp gave abit too much away about future Earth since you could almost imagine earth went to hell after M-Corp become a thing.

    #232038

    Ben Saunders

    Even in Doctor Who, towing the Earth with the TARDIS stretched credibility to hell and back. What a dreadful idea, one on just the grounds of it being ridiculous even as fantasy, and two in how much gravity would absolutely fuck shit up, particularly in the Who episode

    #232039

    Warbofrog

    You probably thought the moon being an egg was annoying rather than funny.

    #232042

    Flap Jack

    rimmer getting painfully melted by the Apocalypse virus in Backwards while being conscious the whole time was a bit much, even for me though. the description of it being “pain beyond pain. a million agonies. and he was still conscious.” didn’t exactly help, either. that’s just a tad too brutal

    Jesus H. Jon Benjamin, I still haven’t read either of the post-Grant Naylor Red Dwarf novels, and every time someone references them it puts me off for longer.

    Does Rob Grant not understand that we genuinely like these characters, or is he just too addicted to being subversive?

    #232047

    bloodteller

    >Jesus H. Jon Benjamin, I still haven’t read either of the post-Grant Naylor Red Dwarf novels, and every time someone references them it puts me off for longer.
    Does Rob Grant not understand that we genuinely like these characters, or is he just too addicted to being subversive?

    i think he just has a really fucked-up torture fetish. a big part of the Backwards novel is the Agonoids- simulants who love to inflict gruesome amounts of pain onto humans whilst still keeping them alive. they’ve been hunting down Lister as he’s the last human alive, and all the while been thinking about the different ways they can torture him as much as possible without actually killing him. one particuarly nasty torture weapon they have is a metal cocktail umbrella which they plan to use to “scrape out his penis tube” and a nail file so they can keep all his scabs and blisters “nice and gooey”. it’s incredibly disturbing, even in comparison to the first two novels.

    Last Human is rather light-hearted in comparsion, but even then there were some rather surreal parts that really creeped me out for some reason.

    #232048

    Warbofrog

    Last Human has an alternate Cat’s decapitated head bobbing in some water, loads of (possibly innocent?) prisoners falling to splatty deaths when the gravity’s switched back on and an alt/Low Lister killing loads of people, describing how he’s going to blow Lister’s cock off and probably getting up to other unpleasantness. Regular Lister’s drugged and raped by his GELF bride, which is played for laughs because it’s gross. Spoilers.

    #232049

    MANI506

    I see the audio versions of both novels as the better options. Both books benefit from a hefty edit – although the DNA section of Last Human should have been snipped and there’s still time for Chris Barrie to record them properly.

    #232050

    International Debris

    Even in Doctor Who, towing the Earth with the TARDIS stretched credibility to hell and back. What a dreadful idea, one on just the grounds of it being ridiculous even as fantasy, and two in how much gravity would absolutely fuck shit up, particularly in the Who episode

    Yes, RTD had a tendency to just go completely over the top, and that was possibly his worst moment.

    Backwards is such a nasty book. It has some great moments, but bloody hell is it difficult to read. But as bloodteller points out, the books are all pretty fucking bleak. They’re all good in their own way, particularly the first two, but they miss the day-to-day life stuff of the show, so it doesn’t actually have much in the way of characters being bored / alone / getting on each others nerves, which is something I feel is really missing.

    #232052

    Bargain Bin Holly

    I think its safe to assume who wrote the part in Better Than Life where the polymorph imitating Lister turns itself (Lister) inside out and drags its innards across the room towards Kryten. Though there I thought it was quite funny when the horrific monstrosity is taken out by a toaster.

    With Backwards, I haven’t read it, but from your description of the Agonoids wasn’t that mentioned in the tv show prior to the book? In Gunmen, Kryten mentions the simulants doing similar things but in the tv show its more or less brushed off and of course not as graphically described.

    #232053

    International Debris

    As for Garbage World, I’d love to see a Red Dwarf episode done on that scale, or at least something approaching it, as long as it still managed to be funny.

    #232054

    Ben Saunders

    The moon being an egg is abhorrent and that entire episode is dreadful. It and the forest episode are darl marks on a near perfect series.

    #232055

    bloodteller

    imagine the omelettes that you could do with a moon-sized egg though

    #232056

    International Debris

    The moon being an egg is abhorrent

    I don’t mind the concept, but the creature that hatched from the egg laying another egg that is effectively BIGGER THAN ITSELF just completely ruins it. Who was never too rigid with its science, but this is one of the few occasions where it just went way too far for me. Utter fucking nonsense.

    #232057

    Pete Part Three

    Yes, the idea of the volume of something being bigger than its own outer dimensions is ridiculous.

    #232058

    International Debris

    I see what you did there.

    #232059

    Ben Saunders

    Yes, the idea of the volume of something organic being bigger than its own outer dimensions really is ridiculous.

    If it didn’t lay another moon-sized egg right after being born it would be less ridiculous, but then it would only go from abhorrent to fucking stupid.

    Towing planets and moons being eggs are the two things that really stand out to me when I think of bad Who science – Who is fantasy first and foremost and it can really get away with stretching credibility quite a lot, but sometimes it stretches it too far and it just snaps. A bit like pulling the weight of a grown woman up on some dental floss glued to one of your teeth, or surfing an alligator in freefall from an exploding plane which somehow takes a full two minutes longer to fall to the ground than you do with your stolen Nazi parachute.

    #232060

    Ben Saunders

    (I love the opening of Stoke with all my heart but it is ridiculous – the thing about Stoke is it’s supposed to be ridiculous, and I’m not sure the Who scenes had the same over the top intent)

    #232062

    quinn_drummer

    Let’s do the maths on this. What is the terminal velocity of an alligator, anyone?

    #232063

    quinn_drummer

    On the point of the moon egg, my head canon (which I’ve just thought of) is that it isn’t that the creature lays a moon sized egg, it is that it secretes an embryo into the “rubble” left by the hatching, and these shell pieces, very quickly, fall back into some gravity well which reforms the moon/egg from the original, around the new embryo.

    #232065

    MANI506

    You want the moon omelette on a stick.

    The alligator landed on top of one of the many sheds and was precariously on the edge for two minutes until it finally fell off on to the nasty old Germans.

    #232066

    bloodteller

    >bit like pulling the weight of a grown woman up on some dental floss glued to one of your teeth

    yeah, that scene in Ouroboros really does work on cartoon logic. surely the weight of an entire woman on one of your teeth would just pull your face apart?

    #232067

    bloodteller

    get Rob Grant in to do a rewrite, i’m sure he’ll include a horrifically graphic scene of lister’s head being torn to bits

    #232068

    Ben Saunders

    I just pretend Kill The Moon didn’t happen and get on with my life. It is quite funny to imagine that any other episode set on/mentioning the moon actually takes place on/references a big fucking egg.

    My favourite Cyberman serial is The Eggbase.

    #232069

    Dave

    Day of the Egg

    #232070

    bloodteller

    HOLLY- No time to lose, you should head for the nearest one of these.

    *Holly slides down the screen so that only the top of his bald head is visible*

    LISTER- You mean an egg?

    HOLLY- Eggsactly.

    #232071

    Dax101

    The solo novels did seem like they were trying to be more edgier. even Dougs novel puts Lister through hell with being knocked out quite a few times, drowning in detail that would make anyone with a fear of drowning feel uncomfortable, being shot in the groin and lister gets raped by a gelf and goes into detail about how he is enjoying it while being disgusted with himself.

    I don’t think the floss thing would have made it into a co-wrote Rob and Doug story personally. compared to the previous 6 seasons it stands out as slightly odd.

    #232072

    International Debris

    The opening to Stoke is an odd one, as it’s the first time that the show does a full-scale parody, rather than an amusing homage (that I can think of). I love it, the crocodile in particular, but I don’t like to think too hard about trying to fit it into Red Dwarf. Then again, it’s in another dimension, so maybe that’s just what things are like there.

    #232077

    clem

    Kochanski dangling on floss from Lister’s teeth happens in the “non-space” between dimensions. It’s a stretch, but I suppose it could be that physics doesn’t work in quite the same way there.

    #232078

    Ben Saunders

    Gravity could be less there, I guess.

    #232081

    quinn_drummer

    If gravity were reduced, then what force is pull Kochanski down away from the tear?

    Although, to answer my own question, her own momentum from falling from the blast I guess

    #232088

    bloodteller

    i think it’s just another example of Red Dwarf’s slightly cartoon-like physics and logic. bear in mind in Out Of Time we are meant to believe Rimmer wrenched the entire fridge off the wall and tried to “insert it” into Lister. granted, it happens offscreen- but we are still meant to acknowledge this was a thing that happened in the past, somehow.

    other examples include the entirety of the Triplicator in Demons & Angels (with the posse, you could argue that their higher and lower selves are manifestations of their superego and id- but how does the Triplicator know what the superego of a strawberry is?) and Cat not dying from the shovel attack in Justice. it’s just one of those things where i don’t think you really can apply the laws of reality.

    #232092

    Dax101

    I think its more the level of cartoony that went up abit by Series 7 onwards. You are more likely to question how kochanski can hold on to floss like its a piece of strong rope then the cat not dying from a mild slapstick shovel gag.

    Thing is when Doug wrote that sequence for all we know he already decided in his head that gravity was gonna be abit different in that void, but its just never translated on screen.

    #232093

    Hamish

    Regarding the fridge, how strong is a hard light hologram anyway? In theory they could lift absolutely anything.

    #232095

    Dax101

    it was a mini fridge ;p

    #232096

    bloodteller

    it’s said it had to be wrenched off the wall. who would attach a minifridge to a wall?

    #232097

    bloodteller

    the triplicator is definitely cartoon logic, though. unless it somehow has its own moral conscience

    #232098

    Dax101

    >it’s said it had to be wrenched off the wall. who would attach a minifridge to a wall?

    If they have a fridge on starbug at all, then sure it could be.

    Although in 1993 they probably didn’t exist so that probably wasn’t what they were getting at

    #232103

    Ben Saunders

    >If gravity were reduced, then what force is pull Kochanski down away from the tear?
    Gravity

    #232104

    Ben Saunders

    Although now I think about it, where is the gravity coming from? What is compelling them “downwards”?

    #232105

    quinn_drummer

    This was my original point … not so much gravity being reduced, I phrased it wrong, it’s more that there shouldn’t be any in “non-space”

    But If it is a void, even if it were just “space” her own momentum from falling out of the tear would keep her moving indefinitely.

    #232109

    Flap Jack

    But If it is a void, even if it were just “space” her own momentum from falling out of the tear would keep her moving indefinitely.

    That makes sense for the first time, but what about the second time? She does a forward jump, but the momentum doesn’t let her keep drifting forward until she reaches the other half of the tunnel; she falls short and plummets into non-space. There must have been an external force which caused her to change direction and fall “down”.

    #232110

    bloodteller

    the external force is merely the will of The Void

    #232111

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Glad to see this thread entering the “Series VII/VIII Discussion” stage, its like puberty for threads they all have to go through it at some point

    #232112

    International Debris

    Now now, we’ve been branching out into ‘minor flaws in the classic run’ recently too. Such as this wonderful one: how could Rimmer have committed suicide in Back to Reality when the harpoon would have simply shot through his projected head without causing any damage?

    See? Easy.

    #232113

    bloodteller

    it was a holopoon. like in demons and angels, they have a holowhip. but this is with harpoons

    #232116

    Plastic Percy

    His lightbee could be floating around the area of his head and it could go straight through it. Or whatever.

    #232119

    Flap Jack

    I think Kryten and Rimmer would have survived the group suicide attempt, but they might – might – have been affected by Lister and The Cat’s deaths.

    #232122

    Hamish

    Somehow I hope the word “holopoon” doesn’t have legs.

    #232123

    Dax101

    Presumably if it didn’t kill Rimmer he would just be living the rest of his existance in despair.

    #232124

    clem

    What force is acting upon Kochanski that makes her fall in non-space? What are they breathing in non-space? And how come the gelfs appear to fly their ship and fire the guns just as though they’re in ordinary space?

    What the hell is non-space? Just put a neat cross through it and we’ll do the next one.

    #232125

    Ben Saunders

    Rimmer going out on the town to snare some holopoon.

    #232126

    clem

    I’ve figured it out. It’s called Non-space because you can breathe there like Jack O’Halloran in Superman II.

    #232404

    Dollar Pound

    why doesn’t non-space affect lister’s claustrophobia?

    #232405

    Dollar Pound

    lister’s claustrophia is ironically trapped in the confines of one tenuous scene

    #232407

    Dollar Pound

    accurately portraying non-space would have saved a lot of money requiring as it would no physically existing things whatever

    #232420

    bloodteller

    >lister’s claustrophia is ironically trapped in the confines of one tenuous scene

    his claustrophobia returns in krytie tv. but that was a deleted scene so i guess it doesnt count

    you’d think being trapped on starbug during VI would have brought on his claustrophobia though

    #232423

    Dave

    And materialising in Hitler’s chimney.

    #232425

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Well with Hitler’s chimney he was only there for about thirty-forty seconds before being swiftly escorted out

    #232427

    Dax101

    >you’d think being trapped on starbug during VI would have brought on his claustrophobia though

    I think its more about being boxed in and trapped.

    #232428

    Ben Saunders

    It could also be triggered more by stressful situations, like carooning into the sun with zero expertise at the helm while also being trapped in an enclosed space

    #232430

    bloodteller

    >And materialising in Hitler’s chimney.

    do they not mention this in Duct Soup? Cat asks why he didn’t get his clasutrophobia then, and Lister responds that he simply “doesn’t always get it”

    #232432

    Pete Part Three

    He also doesn’t get it when he’s crawling through the tunnel in Terrorform, in the very long lift ride in Stasis Leak, and didn’t seem too concerned about being put in a metal chamber for “18 months” or in an enclosed deep sleep bunk for 200 years. Maybe it’s all a big con.

    #232433

    Dave

    It’s a bit like the way the time drive “doesn’t always have the ability to let you travel in space”.

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