Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum how would you resolve the end to ” only the good …”

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  • #2746
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    with the specials comin up .. will they let us know what happend after lister cat kryten and kochanski were trapped in a mirror universe with no way back and rimmer runnin away after kickin death in the balls with no one else on the ship ( or was there other prisoners on there?) ….seems like there going to be a hell of alot of explaining to be done …. if it was up to you … WHAT HAPPEND NEXT ??

    #88777
    Mnoooah
    Participant

    Wondered this casually myself. All I know is, it must not in any way involve Ace.

    #88779
    performingmonkey
    Participant

    “…die young.”

    It WON’T be explained. All the VI cliffhanger explanation did was infuriate fans.

    #88782
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    well i think doug should know that certain things the fans will want to know .. like .. which rimmer is it .. original holagram/ace come back or the 1 who kicked death in the nuts .. how red dwarf was saved or indeed not saved .. wheres holly gone .. wheres kochanski gone .. if they just glaze over that alltogether i think there will be alot of pissed of fans .. i mean even a star wars backwards type scroll at 3000mph wud be better than nothing … rite ?

    #88784
    Dave
    Participant

    In an opening crawl in Kinatowowi

    #88785
    Mnoooah
    Participant

    Heyyyyy, not me. It was one of my favorite parts of VI, actually. It seemed quintessentially dwarfy to have the crew somewhat blase about an existance shattering inexplicable event.

    #88786
    Mnoooah
    Participant

    Yeah, an opening crawl dismissing a number of significant events is quntissential too.

    #88787
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    in 1 way i really want to know what happend after ” only the good ” but then again i think it would be funny if they just said ” ten years later and … lots of stuff has happend ” but i doubt thell want to waste precious time on the specials explaining a cliffhanger from ten years ago …

    #88790
    Mnoooah
    Participant

    Someone else wondered too:

    #88791
    Carlito
    Participant

    How do you know the new special ISN’T going to resolve the cliffhanger from 10 years ago?

    Lister has been studying on board the mirror Red Dwarf for 10 years to find a way to get back to the original ship.

    The episode opens as a decade older Lister, Kryten and Cat all climb through the mirror but… OH NO… the portal closes just as Kochanski’s leg appears; she is knocked back through, never to be seen again.

    They find Rimmer, who has gone senile from 10 years of being alone on a rotting ship. Holly found a way to slow the deterioration but it meant sacrificing himself to do so. Rimmer has sat in the last remaining quarter of the ship for the last 4 years, waiting to die.

    The crew all realise they are doomed, there is no way out of this mess, they can’t even knock up a new portal as the ship labs eroded 6 years ago. They sit in the captain’s office, the last remaining safe, oxygenised room on the ship, and wait to die.

    Could be good, bit of pathos, bit of character stuff a la series 2. Bit of ‘Waiting for Godot in Space’. More character interaction and gags than action packed monster killing, as reflecting the budget. And we leave it with an open ending… we slowly zoom out on the characters, out of the window of the captain’s office, to see just a tiny red piece of metal floating in space, the last remaining section of Red Dwarf and fade to black…

    #88793
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    now that is actually pretty damn good *tips hat* only thing holding it back is the fact that dave probly have orders for it in some way to have a fresh start to let new fans get involved ( sort oflike how series 6 started ) i guess alot of new fans would watch ur version of the special and gooo ehhhhh wtf is appenin here .. but me as a fan i love the idea lets gets soem camaras and start filming some fanfiction haha

    #88794
    Carlito
    Participant

    Unless Dave are planning a new series, I doubt they would care about getting new fans on board with the new episodes, there are only 2 of them, the old episodes have pretty consistantly drawn new viewers over the years in their own right. Better a chance to give the old and new fans some closure to the series than just randomly throw out 2 new episodes if there are no plans for more down the line.

    #88792
    Carlito
    Participant

    Re: my above post. The implication being they all die, but leaving it open so that if they ever wanted to make more, we haven’t actually watched them die, as dire a situation as they are in, they could still be potentially saved, but leaving it unlikely enough that if it really is the last time we ever meet the characters, we know their fate.

    #88797
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    i seriously hope they dont overcome the low budget issue by simply having them on earth walking around ect would be propper bummed if it was soemthing like that

    #88817
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > In an opening crawl in Kinatowowi

    I love this.

    Surely if Lister, Cat, Kryten and Kochanski are trapped in a mirror universe all they need to do is re-boot Rimmer (the character) it’s been done once it can be done again and somehow lose Kochanski and there’s the four core Dwarfers all together again.

    #88827
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I certainly hope these are not the last specials. I thought they were more like pilots to see if Red Dwarf can still work today.

    #88826
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    > I thought they were more like pilots to see if Red Dwarf can still work today.

    well i guess they are in a way but not to sure weather that would lead to a full series i guess it depends on the “success” of them and that all depends what dave classes as success..because i doubt they will get to even the 1 million mark though not sure what veiwing figures dave gets .. though i think the most bbc3 has ever had is like 2 million ( for torchwood if memory serves me )

    #88834
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Is Dave effectively free? I mean is it as available as BBC3. If so I genuinely think with the right promotion and that means not just on Dave itself, but posters and papers/magazines that Dwarf could do just as well if not better than that figure. It’s entirely about getting the word out to the fanbase and the lost fanbase (Not viewers of Lost obviously, although they’re welcome too. They must be used to unsatisfactory resolutions by now).

    #88835
    performingmonkey
    Participant

    > i seriously hope they dont overcome the low budget issue by simply having them on earth walking around ect

    It would probably cost MORE to have them on Earth. If they were on Starbug, for example, they could just get away with a couple of small sets and very little, if any, location shooting.

    I’m guessing next week could be location shooting for the specials and the (two?)audience dates coming in Feb.

    #88837
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    not sure, from what robert said on twitter on tuesday “Just heard today I am going to Pinewood studios next week for ‘a make up test.’ Full Kryten for the first time in 10 years. Gulp!” dont know weather that means they start filmin the same week or weather there just setting things up ..

    #88840
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >Is Dave effectively free?

    I think so. As long as you have cable or satellite TV I think they’re amongst the standard extras. They are with my package (virgin.) Whether that’s true for all the others… I don’t know, but I think it’s pretty widespread.

    #88842
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Yes, Dave is free to air. Everyone in the UK has access to it.

    #88844
    JamesTC
    Participant

    You need to buy a free-view box which right now costs about ?10 for the cheapest which isn’t that bad, I think in a rescent thing it said 90% had free-view anyway. From this year all the TVs will need a free-view box to recieve a signal as well, this means BBC3 and Dave will be just as accesable as BBC2 or ITV. I wonder why BBC1 always gets so much more ratings than BBC2, it is only one channel up!

    #88847
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Is it because BBC One shows mainstream, populist shows that are designed to appeal to larger numbers of people, and that BBC Two is designed for more niche, specialist programming?

    #88848
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >Is it because BBC One shows mainstream, populist shows that are designed to appeal to larger numbers of people, and that BBC Two is designed for more niche, specialist programming?

    That does seem about right, maybe it is just that I prefer BBC2 so much more, I don’t really watch much on BBC1, Doctor Who is really the only show. One flaw in what you said is that you say it is the program when putting Torchwood on BBC2 from BBC3 will gain an audiance, putting it on BBC1 from BBC2 will almost certainly gain more, why? Put a program on the same night on BBC1 and on BBC2 the same time and BBC1 will get millions more viewers, crazy if you ask me, channels should be judged by each show as it goes.

    #88851
    James
    Participant

    I thought Dave was a cheap little tart.

    #88853
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    That does seem about right, maybe it is just that I prefer BBC2 so much more, I don?t really watch much on BBC1, Doctor Who is really the only show. One flaw in what you said is that you say it is the program when putting Torchwood on BBC2 from BBC3 will gain an audiance, putting it on BBC1 from BBC2 will almost certainly gain more, why? Put a program on the same night on BBC1 and on BBC2 the same time and BBC1 will get millions more viewers, crazy if you ask me, channels should be judged by each show as it goes.

    Channels’ reputations and the audience’s long-held viewing habits, innit.

    Not sure how old you are, SO, but you’re probably young enough to have been living most of your life in a multi-channel TV environment. To you, it seems daft that channel 1 is more popular than channel 2 when there’s hundreds of channels anyway. But for people who grew up with only 2, 3 or 4 channels to choose from, they expect certain things from certain channels, and adjust their viewing habits accordingly. That’s why a lot of BBC2 shows will move to BBC1 when they get really popular (HIGNFY, QI and Torchwood 3, for example) – they’ll get more viewers simply by being labelled “mainstream” rather than “minority”. It’s mainly about having the shows fit the channels rather than the other way round – the channels themselves have identities and demographics to maintain.

    #88883
    Dave
    Participant

    >I thought Dave was a cheap little tart.

    I have no evidence to the contrary.

    #88901
    locusceruleus
    Participant

    >Wondered this casually myself. All I know is, it must not in any way involve Ace.

    None of the specials should include Ace, Duane Dibbley, Polymorphs, or GELFs. Please, please let it be so.

    Yeah, an opening crawl seems the way to go. Who gives a toss, it’s been almost a decade and it was a crap cliffhanger anyway.

    #88903
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >None of the specials should include Ace, Duane Dibbley, Polymorphs, or GELFs. Please, please let it be so.

    I think some of them atleast will be in Red Dwarf: Unplugged but that is not really an appearance.

    #88907
    Carlito
    Participant

    Could definitely see the recuperation lounge scene from Back to Reality being re-enacted in the Unplugged special.

    #88917
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I wouldn’t mind Ace in the specials. Bear in mind it’s actually our Holo-Rimmer version, so catching up with him could be interesting. He might not be the same cheesy Ace as his predecessors.

    As for gelfs, I wouldn’t mind seeing different types. Since it’s 2 part special on a budget, the only versions likely to appear would be kinitawowi… and I’d prefer not (although I thought they were great at the time.) If the specials provide a decent resolution to last series’s cliffhanger, they’re not required though. If it’s just the four crew-members doing character stuff to a decent script with some ship stuff, that would be fine.

    If a new series follows, gelfs and other creatures are welcome (as long as it isn’t a ‘monster of the week’ scenario.) Gives the crew something apart from each other (or alternate versions of themselves) to react to.

    #88920
    locusceruleus
    Participant

    >If a new series follows, gelfs and other creatures are welcome (as long as it isn?t a ?monster of the week? scenario. Gives the crew something apart from each other (or alternate versions of themselves) to react to.

    Oh, I agree. I just think the worrying possibility with reunion specials is that we might end up with “Hey look, it’s Ace Rimmer”, “Ooh, a polymorph!” “Ha ha, that hilarious Duane Dibbley and his antics.” and be expected to go home happy, as it were.

    I think Doug has more sense though, thankfully.

    #88921
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    i think in some way shape or form there has to be some reference to the cliffhanger even if its something said for 5 seconds.. .. and as it said on the website the details of the 4 episodes are subject to change .. so you never know they make the episodes a few muinets longer to accomidate a solution without actually wasting any screen time

    #88993
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    how about they carried on after series 6 but in like an alternate timeline (due to the timelines merging blah blah ) and carried on from there .. would automaticly solve the holly and kochanski absences

    #89000
    hummingbird
    Participant

    > how about they carried on after series 6 but in like an alternate timeline

    This has been my fantasy scenario for a long time.
    Completely feasible, as one of the first things Lister says in Tikka is that the reality they’re in is unstable.

    #89001
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    You cant’ ignore VII and VIII as if they never happened, they HAVE happened, it shall be going to be happening, it will be was an event that could will have been taken place in the future.

    Simple as that.

    #89004
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Ah, but with the parallel universe scenario, they can both have, going to have happen… happened.

    I agree though. Some kind of resolution would be nice. And although RD has a history of glossing over end of series cliff-hangers, they have given some kind of explanation. Even if it’s more confusing parallel universe stuff. ;)

    #89010
    Carlito
    Participant

    Wouldn’t surprise me if the new episodes are completely stand alone, and Doug simply explains the outcomes of the cliffhanger in a talking head on the Behind The Scenes episode.

    #89011
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    TO be honest, I’d prefer a 2 second explanation like the rest, and then on.

    #89012
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    > I?d prefer a 2 second explanation like the rest, and then on

    i agree as long as there is some type of explanation or id be ” almolst annoyed ” nah i doubt he will bypass the cliffhanger completely because otherwise people will just keep askin what happend .. so yeah a 2 second round up sounds good to me

    #89017
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    “You remember what happened last time on Red Dwarf? Well they got out of that. Meanwhile…”

    That would do me fine…

    #89021
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    and ” wow is it really 9 years since kochanski went back with holo lister “
    that would also do

    #89025
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Most of the “But I and II don’t match up with the continuity of III onwards! The show is forever broken!!11!1″ fans seem to want to see VII and VIII retconned out as a Reality Bubble.

    Which is a terrible idea, obviously.

    #89048
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Or is it?

    I really couldn’t care for a lot of the character stuff that goes on in the last two series? Rimmer’s send-off in Series VII feels pretty much part of Dwarf folk-lore as does Blue, but I couldn’t say I have the same level of affection for anything that happens in Series VIII. Infact do the characters actually develop at all in series VIII?

    I can’t see any kind of retcon actually happening, but because of series VII and VIII I’m not going to be totally surprised if there’s some contrived speil at the start to explain why there’s no Kochanski and no Holly.

    #89050
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Who says Kochanski is not in the specials, personally I would love 2 episodes set on Star Bug with Rimmer, Cat, Kryten, Lister and Kochanski. A mix of the Series VI and VII. All they have said is only the four main cast are confimed, doesn’t mean others can’t be confirmed soon, we haven’t even got a director confirmed or a plot so just because 4 people are confirmed doesn’t mean more can’t come along.

    #89060
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Erm…allright calm down! I was simply going on the information we’ve been given. Yes other people could come in. I’m only guessing. If Norm isn’t involved for budgetary reasons, I’m not sure how much more the Kochanski character is really worth either? Since we are only getting two full episodes and those episodes could turn out to be only 22-23 minutes to me it would make sense to split that up between the four core characters, but that’s just my take.

    #89064
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I am calm! Was my post aggressive? If it was I apologise because it was not meant to be in that tone.

    #89065
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    be a shame if they are only 22 -23 mins long tho i hope and suspect that dave willlet have tham have 2 half hour apisodes of old as 99% of all shows on dave run for 40 mins with adverts

    #89067
    JamesTC
    Participant

    No matter what happens these will be the shortest episodes but I still think these will be for a 40 minute slot as it will be inkeeping with the other episodes. Previous episodes have cuts (not just to incorporate adverts) so atleast these will be specialy made for Dave so it won’t be butchered on repeats though I will buy the DVD straight away so I won’t run on repeats, yet it is good for those who prefer to not buy DVDs and watch repeats.

    #89077
    locusceruleus
    Participant

    I’ll be hugely surprised if Kochanski is in the new episodes. The general consensus (i.e. Bobby Llew’s Twitter, a few articles, Norm’s post) seems to suggest just the four core Dwarfers.

    #89078
    performingmonkey
    Participant

    If it was just Rimmer and Lister I would accept it. Obviously it’s NOT so all the better, but I think we can all live without Kochanski and Holly, we did for VI (granted I’m not the biggest fan of that series, bar Gunmen).

    Now, let’s just stick a needle in that huge pulsating bubo, forget all this nonsense and ENJOY the fact that we are getting SOME form of new Red Dwarf. Frak Earth, that’s what I say.

    #89114
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    yep all that matters is that hopefully its funny .. seing as its a comedy .. the worry is that after all these years we may be disapointed but hopefully it will be spectacularly good

    #89177
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    What if it’s a “Battlestar Galactica: Razor” style special, set during one of the earlier series? I mean yes, the cast are visibly older, but that never stopped… someone.

    #89182
    ChrisM
    Participant

    What if it?s a ?Battlestar Galactica: Razor? style special, set during one of the earlier series?

    I wouldn’t mind that at all.

    If the specials were set later it would be nice to reference the character’s ages (lost in parallel universe(s) for that long and it’s taken that long to get back… and all that jive-bunny*… )…

    … but I’m fine with them just ignoring the ages in a historical setting.

    It might be interesting to see the crew’s mysterious ecounter with the pan-dimensional liquid beast from the Modagon (Mogadon?) clustre. On the other hand, considering the budget, I doubt they’d pull that off. Well… unless liquid beast affects involved filming pools and chucking buckets around in which case it could be the most cheaply realized sci-fi beastie ever. Outside of Star-Trek of course.

    *or possibly literally, if they encountered a universe where Lister’s pet Frankenstein was a rabbit. But my mind has gone off on a tangent now… (what would a humanoid bunny look like? Why is that a creepy thought? (oh wait Bugs… and Roger Rabit. More the former, he’s got more jive. Doubt they could afford such an icon though, even if he does take payment in root vegetable products.)

    #89191
    Paul Muller
    Participant

    Yeah.

    I’ll be interested to see what happens with such a small budget – have a nasty suspicion they might forgo any FX shots of the ships and just re-use old footage.

    #89193
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    >have a nasty suspicion they might forgo any FX shots of the ships and just re-use old footage.

    dont think that would bother me to much altho there are them remasterd scenes for the series 7 dvd and its not as hard these days so you never know might get more bang for your buck than they would expect … though i find it hard to immagin it being set on red dwarf ( to many sets )but u never know

    #89194
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    The Grandfather Paradox means that the entirety of reality should have been wiped out at the conclusion of Out of Time. And if not then, then at the conclusion of Tikka, when the same thing happens.

    Ergo, everything that happens from VII onwards can safely be ignored, as that universe doesn’t actually exist, and any episodes you may encounter from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.

    #89195
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    yep it wouldent bother me is they carried on from series 6 but in a different direction .. much like the sarah conner chroicles carries on from terminator 2 whilst completely ignoring terminator 3 .. bt i think with dwarf and all the paradoxs .. plus explaining holly and kochanskis absence would make more sense

    #89196
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > Ergo, everything that happens from VII onwards can safely be ignored, as that universe doesn?t actually exist, and any episodes you may encounter from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.

    A winner.

    #89198
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    That clears that up.

    #89202
    Paul Muller
    Participant

    I’ll put the kettle on.

    #89209
    JamesTC
    Participant

    The Grandfather Paradox means that the entirety of reality should have been wiped out at the conclusion of Out of Time. And if not then, then at the conclusion of Tikka, when the same thing happens.

    Ergo, everything that happens from VII onwards can safely be ignored, as that universe doesn?t actually exist, and any episodes you may encounter from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.

    “The Grandfather Paradox is this: suppose a man traveled back in time and killed his biological grandfather before the latter met the traveller’s grandmother. As a result, one of the traveller’s parents (and by extension, the traveller himself) would never have been conceived. This would imply that he could not have travelled back in time after all, which in turn implies the grandfather would still be alive, and the traveller would have been conceived, allowing him to travel back in time and kill his grandfather. Thus each possibility seems to imply its own negation, a type of logical paradox.”

    Though not mentioning the universe is destroyed in that piece from good ol’ wikipedia, one of many outcomes can be established by the logical paradox that is formed, the outcome Red Dwarf establishes is that the events occured to the man but not to the grandfather and events were turned back (not without repercussions, unstable dimension in RD) so that the man can then avoid his error and stop the logical paradox.

    #89212
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    what im not sure of at the start of tikka to ride listers says soemthing to the affect ” killing us killed themselves because we could never become them in the futur to kill our past selves “
    fair enuf ..
    then how does kennedy kill his past self .. because if he does that it means he cant become his future self to kill himself in the past .. so really nobody is there to kill kennedy …… me confused or am i missing soemthing

    #89213
    JamesTC
    Participant

    then how does kennedy kill his past self .. because if he does that it means he cant become his future self to kill himself in the past .. so really nobody is there to kill kennedy ?? me confused

    It could be that with the future Star Buggers being the original future selves their time line as well as themselves can be changed because they exist as originals, Kennedy was a different version of himself not from the original time line so he could kill himself because essentially he was a different man because he was not meant to exist. Ouch, its like brain freeze only much worse.

    #89214
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    yep mega brain freeze i think iv mentiond this before its like the other future selves in stasis leak from 5 years into future what happend to them .. id like to think they were the same future selves that were killed in out of time maybe and which kochanski was it .. a future 1 or the same one from before the accident .. if so that would mean in the 1st episode she would have already have been married to future lister ahhh i dunnooo freezage going on

    #89215
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Poetic licence.

    #89216
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    well that sorts that out …?? :/ hah

    #89217
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    i guess certain time anomalies would wipe over other wise … like the amount of times history is changed in timeslides … i guess there just creating and endless amount of parralell sideways upside down and inside out timelines universes dimersions and god knows what else

    #89338
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    what im not sure of at the start of tikka to ride listers says soemthing to the affect ? killing us killed themselves because we could never become them in the futur to kill our past selves ?
    fair enuf ..
    then how does kennedy kill his past self .. because if he does that it means he cant become his future self to kill himself in the past .. so really nobody is there to kill kennedy ?? me confused or am i missing soemthing

    No, you’re not missing something, it’s a fucking ridiculous piece of bad internal logic. Dwarf may have had its series-to-series continuity problems, but Rob and Doug were never usually dumb enough to contradict themselves within the space of a single episode. I actually rate Tikka fairly highly, compared to some, but that little nugget completely balls it up.

    And it could have been quite easily avoided, as well, if the explanation used for the Dwarfers’ survival at the end of VI had been the original one of Rimmer having destroyed the time drive and thus stopped the future versions from ever existing. Alright, so Kennedy killing himself would still have been a paradox – but as SoundableObject points out, there are multiple theorised ways to resolve a Grandfather Paradox. Unfortunately, by virtue of the spiel at the beginning of the episode, Dwarf chose the one that means that the Kennedy sequence can’t actually have happened.

    #89341
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    always wonderd why they state soemthing at the start of an episode and go completely agaist it at the end .. still one of my favourate episodes just always been slightly confuzzled by that bit of writing

    #89346
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I think everyone should go and watch Crime Traveller.

    #89380
    Carlito
    Participant

    I liked Crime Traveller, cheese and all.

    #89381
    Mnoooah
    Participant

    I think the fact that there is NO footage of this on Youtube – okay apart from the opening credits – is telling.

    #89475
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Unfortunately, by virtue of the spiel at the beginning of the episode, Dwarf chose the one that means that the Kennedy sequence can?t actually have happened.

    Could you explain this to me simple enough that Lister could understand it, because my hand is up and I haven’t got the slightest clue what you’re blathering about.

    #89478
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >> Unfortunately, by virtue of the spiel at the beginning of the episode, Dwarf chose the one that means that the Kennedy sequence can?t actually have happened.

    > Could you explain this to me simple enough that Lister could understand it, because my hand is up and I haven?t got the slightest clue what you?re blathering about.

    At the start of Series VII time was reversed to the point before the paradox with the crews future selves were fought giving the gang the oppurtunity to not become their future selves.
    If this applied to ‘Tikka to Ride’ then when they pushed Oswald out of the window time should have returned to the point before they pushed him out of the window so they can avoid pushing him out of the window and christmas can be saved!

    #89492
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >If this applied to ?Tikka to Ride? then when they pushed Oswald out of the window time should have returned to the point before they pushed him out of the window so they can avoid pushing him out of the window and christmas can be saved!

    That paradox might only be relevant if one kills one’s past self though.

    It’s a good point though. A better example might be when Kennedy killed his past self.

    It didn’t really bother me all that much though. I figure the bit at the start about a new universe being created to deal with the paradox incorporating stuff from different timelines gives a lot of room to maneuver. I.e. The new universe might not always incorporate the same stuff the same way.

    #89494
    Almighty_crj
    Participant

    But they did stop Oswald getting pushed out the window. They sent him up a floor and he failed to kill the President.

    Well since we already know Red Dwarf uses the theory that every probability (or decision) has a dimension, Then Lister could have been talking to the Kennedy from the dimension that Oswald failed to kill on the correct angle with no influence from the dwarfers at all.

    #89496
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    No, SoundableObject’s got it wrong. It’s got nothing to do with Oswald.

    Right, the reason the crew survive the end of VI is that it’s impossible to kill your past self. Because if you kill yourself in the past, you don’t exist in order to kill yourself.

    But Tikka resolves with JFK… killing his past self.

    #89499
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >Well since we already know Red Dwarf uses the theory that every probability (or decision) has a dimension, Then Lister could have been talking to the Kennedy from the dimension that Oswald failed to kill on the correct angle with no influence from the dwarfers at all.

    But the dimension where Kennedy was shot and the one where he wasn’t are one and the same just with altered time lines. You could theorise that it creates an alternative dimension and so the fact that it is not the same dimension means he can kill himself quite easily because he is not the same man but we have the problem that in ‘Out of Time’ the future Dwarfers do not actually happen in the actual dimension so infact the regular crew were killed by an alternative future crew so the time lines would not have fixed themselves and the future selves would have went away happy in the knowledge that they killed their alternative past selves and are stuck like rats in space.

    #89502
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    All well and good, but not in any way connected to the point I made. So in future I’ll answer for myself, cheers ;-)

    #89503
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    (not that I’m saying your discussion/theory isn’t valid. But Karl specifically asked what I meant by mine.)

    #89504
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >All well and good, but not in any way connected to the point I made. So in future I?ll answer for myself, cheers ;-)

    I was replying to a comment made by Almighty_crj. That is why I included this at the start –
    “>Well since we already know Red Dwarf uses the theory that every probability (or decision) has a dimension, Then Lister could have been talking to the Kennedy from the dimension that Oswald failed to kill on the correct angle with no influence from the dwarfers at all.”

    #89506
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Yeah, but before that you replied to Karl’s question, which had been addressed to me, with something entirely different to the actual answer ;-)

    #89507
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >Yeah, but before that you replied to Karl?s question, which had been addressed to me, with something entirely different to the actual answer ;-)

    Oh I see that is higher up, sorry!

    #89508
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    … but to take on your point, I don’t think there’s a paradox involved in the Dwarfers killing Oswald even though they know him to have killed JFK. At that moment they become a part of the timeline in which JFK survives. By the show’s own rules, that’s not a problem.

    And this is the thing, it’s about establishing rules. Given that the science involved is all theoretical, in a fictional context you can choose to resolve a grandfather paradox in any number of ways. In Doctor Who, the paradox of the future of humanity wiping out the present of humanity is only allowed to happen thanks to a machine that prevents the universe from simply collapsing.

    So if the opening to Tikka hadn’t been the case, they could have got away with JFK killing himself. The explanation could be as simple as “those JFKs are both from parallel timelines”, which is a branch of science that Dwarf already has experience in dealing with. However, if you explain it away like that, you HAVE to say the same thing for the future crew killing the Dwarfers. You can’t have two different sets of rules for different scenarios – it breaks the narrative.

    #89510
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >The explanation could be as simple as ?those JFKs are both from parallel timelines?, which is a branch of science that Dwarf already has experience in dealing with. However, if you explain it away like that, you HAVE to say the same thing for the future crew killing the Dwarfers. You can?t have two different sets of rules for different scenarios – it breaks the narrative.

    Which I theorised in this segmant of a post above –
    “You could theorise that it creates an alternative dimension and so the fact that it is not the same dimension means he can kill himself quite easily because he is not the same man but we have the problem that in ?Out of Time? the future Dwarfers do not actually happen in the actual dimension so infact the regular crew were killed by an alternative future crew so the time lines would not have fixed themselves and the future selves would have went away happy in the knowledge that they killed their alternative past selves and are stuck like rats in space.”

    #89512
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    but we have the problem that in ?Out of Time? the future Dwarfers do not actually happen in the actual dimension so infact the regular crew were killed by an alternative future crew so the time lines would not have fixed themselves and the future selves would have went away happy in the knowledge that they killed their alternative past selves and are stuck like rats in space

    But if it was an alternative future crew, then there’s no paradox. “Our” Dwarfers should have stayed dead.

    This is my point – if there were genuinely different reasons for the two situations resolving themselves differently, then the show should have given them. It doesn’t. All we have to go on is the explanation at the start : “By killing us they killed themselves”. That establishes the rule – in Dwarf‘s universe, it is not possible to kill a past version of yourself. Parallel universes be damned. The future Kennedy fades away after shooting himself – suggesting that he, just like the future Dwarf crew, no longer exists. So why are his actions still carried out?

    #89513
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >if there were genuinely different reasons for the two situations resolving themselves differently, then the show should have given them. It doesn?t. All we have to go on is the explanation at the start : ?By killing us they killed themselves?. That establishes the rule – in Dwarf?s universe, it is not possible to kill a past version of yourself. Parallel universes be damned. The future Kennedy fades away after shooting himself – suggesting that he, just like the future Dwarf crew, no longer exists. So why are his actions still carried out?

    Well maybe the time line prefers to return to its original state (not without problems as are stated in ‘Tikka to Ride’, dimensional anomalies being created) so the JFK past and alternative future version existed as par of an anomalie meant to fix teh time line and the Dwarfers trying to fix JFK in time were swayed by the time line.
    I know my theories are becoming more and more crazy and outlandish.

    #89515
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Mine fits all eventualities:
    ‘The new universe* might not always incorporate the same stuff the same way.’

    *The one generated to deal with paradoxes

    #89516
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Okay, but the fact that you have to come up with an explanation for a plot inconsistency doesn’t stop it being a plot inconsistency.

    #89517
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I agree.

    #89519
    Dave
    Participant

    Beavers mate for life

    #89520
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >Okay, but the fact that you have to come up with an explanation for a plot inconsistency doesn?t stop it being a plot inconsistency.

    Not saying it does, I just like everything neat and explained, I even worked out how the 8th Doctor is half human and the rest of them arn’t.

    I think I can explain this –
    >if there were genuinely different reasons for the two situations resolving themselves differently, then the show should have given them.

    The show wanted to leave the science territory of Series V and VI to a lesser extent. Kryten summed it up really, “Garbled, confusing and quite franky duller than an inflight magazine by air Belgium.”

    #89523
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I even worked out how the 8th Doctor is half human and the rest of them arn?t.

    “I once convinced my most hated enemy that I was half-human with nothing more than a wide-eyed expression, a couple of words, and a half-broken chameleon arch”

    #89526
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Is that a quote out of a BFA and if so which one?

    #89529
    Dave
    Participant

    >Is that a quote out of a BFA and if so which one?

    I don’t think so, but it’s a fact. Beavers really do mate for life.

    #89545
    Mnoooah
    Participant

    >it breaks the narrative.

    It’s already broken, though. In many, many places. The narrative is as ramshackle as the crew. I like it that way for the same reason some people like the early ultra-thrifty sets, it reflects the general tone of wonkyness.

    #89573
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >Is that a quote out of a BFA and if so which one?

    No, it’s from Tony Lee’s comic, Doctor Who : The Forgotten.

    #89575
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Right, the reason the crew survive the end of VI is that it?s impossible to kill your past self. Because if you kill yourself in the past, you don?t exist in order to kill yourself.

    Ah! Of course. Cheers.

    The question is out of the two physical interpretations of this paradox which is the most enjoyable? I love the JFK story. The twist of JFK being the second gunman, was an absolutely classic Dwarf riff for me. The OOT explaination and series VII establishing rant being much less enjoyable.

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