Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Is Justice a deliberate retcon…or is Kryten lying?

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  • #230668
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I’ve reached Justice in my rewatch, and I’m always intrigued over Kryten’s defence of Rimmer.

    The Justice field works by detecting a person’s guilt (rather than trying to determine actual culpability), and Kryten’s defence hinges on this. He argues that Rimmer couldn’t possibly be guilty of 2nd degree murder, as his responsibilities extended no further than repairing vending machines. It’s Rimmer’s grand delusions over his role on Red Dwarf that is feeding his guilt.

    Interestingly, you could possibly argue that his death scene in Me2 is a faked reconstruction along these lines; Hollister yelling at Rimmer “It was your responsibility to fix the drive plate” could be a warped Rimmer’s way of remembering the accident, but there’s clearly several lines in The End which confirm that Rimmer *was* responsible, and he *was* in the drive room when he died (despite clearly not having a reason to go there regularly).

    The curious thing is that Justice never actually reveals whether this is Rob and Doug retconning events (and bringing things in line with Infinity, as they did a lot throughout Series IV) or whether Kryten is deliberately lying. Is it seeding the court-case later, when Kryten says “Boy, I’m really getting the hang of this “lie mode.”” when they enter Justice World, or just a coincidence?.

    I’d also forgotten that Kryten refers to Rimmer as a “retard” at one point. Urgh.

    #230671
    Col
    Member

    The whole drive plate thing never made much sense to me anyway. Why would a mere 2nd technician, more used to ensuring that the chicken soup nozzle on vending machines wasn’t clogged, be entrusted with repairing such a vital piece of equipment such as the drive plate? Rimmer may have guilt over the incident but he still blames Lister for it, saying that if he had some help while fixing it, it wouldn’t have happened. So if Lister was unavailable as he was in stasis, why wasn’t someone else assigned to help Rimmer?

    #230672
    Taiwan Tony
    Participant

    >I’d also forgotten that Kryten refers to Rimmer as a “retard” at one point. Urgh.

    Careful. Better Dead Than Smeg will be calling you for a chat.

    #230673
    bloodteller
    Participant

    >The whole drive plate thing never made much sense to me anyway. Why would a mere 2nd technician, more used to ensuring that the chicken soup nozzle on vending machines wasn’t clogged, be entrusted with repairing such a vital piece of equipment such as the drive plate?

    it’s implied in Back In The Red that repairing the drive plates is an incredibly easy task- presumably Rimmer was given the job of fixing them because Hollister assumed that not even Rimmer was stupid enough to botch such an easy task.

    #230674
    bloodteller
    Participant

    it’s like a person trying to unclog a toilet but somehow messing up and flooding the entire house

    #230675
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I’m leaning towards retcon now, and that’s weird.

    I’ve always taken that scene as Kryten not denying the events, but putting the blame on the yo-gurt who assigned the task to someone inept who was bound to fail, and the Justice computer conveniently finding that an acceptable excuse.

    But reading the dialogue, Kryten rejects the possibility it even happened, and the verdict is “It is not possible for you to have committed the crimes.” Even though it is possible because it did happen (at least in the original continuity).

    #230676
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I always believed that the job of fixing the drive plate was given to Rimmer, but shouldn’t have been. Either they underestimated the importance of the job and had no idea it could go so catastrophically wrong, or they were just idiots. The captain was Dennis the donut boy, after all.

    #230678
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Also Skipper confirms Rimmer’s claim that if Lister was here the crisis would have been averted by showing us the universe in which Lister becomes captain. In that episode he also mentions a cash payoff to keep shtum and I think implies that he discovered the fault, so perhaps we can take that to mean that a radiation leak was not a known possibility at the time of Rimmer fixing the drive plate, so the idea that the job wasn’t seen as thay critical works. Now that’s a retcon.

    #230681
    Dave
    Participant

    The whole drive plate thing never made much sense to me anyway. Why would a mere 2nd technician, more used to ensuring that the chicken soup nozzle on vending machines wasn’t clogged, be entrusted with repairing such a vital piece of equipment such as the drive plate?

    Isn’t it a hangover from the original version of The End, where they weren’t quite such lowly vending-machine repairmen, but were engineers who actually had to fix reasonably important machinery?

    Justice probably just inadvertently calls undue attention to the fact that rewrites to The End made it a lot less plausible that Rimmer would be entrusted with such important repair work.

    I think it’s pretty well-established in-universe that Rimmer was responsible for the leak though. So in that respect, yes, Kryten is lying during the trial.

    #230691
    Warbodog
    Participant

    >I think it’s pretty well-established in-universe that Rimmer was responsible for the leak though.

    No Kochanski relationship + 169 crew members were also concrete facts from dialogue in multiple episodes, that’s why it seems like it might be another of those post-novel retcons that’s less obvious. I can’t remember if/when Rimmer’s drive plate culpability is mentioned again, but the continuity’s a mish-mash in VIII and beyond.

    #230695
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Kryten is using the determinism defence in that it is the fault of the person/system who gave Rimmer the job rather than the fault of Rimmer himself. Logically this means that it is the fault of the person/system who caused the person/system who chose Rimmer to choose him, and it is the fault of the person/system who resulted in them doing that doing that, and so on and so on, thus proving that nobody could be guilty of anything unless they were God, and the Justice Computer decides that God cannot exist, therefore nobody can possible be guilty of anything, therefore the Justice Computer has no purpose and explodes.

    Or am I misremembering the episode?

    #230696
    Dave
    Participant

    No Kochanski relationship + 169 crew members were also concrete facts from dialogue in multiple episodes, that’s why it seems like it might be another of those post-novel retcons that’s less obvious.

    Yeah, I suppose that’s fair. But then why would Rimmer feel guilty about it?

    The interesting thing about Justice is that the judgement process is not like The Inquisitor, so it’s not as though Rimmer is judging *himself* as being guilty over the incident. In fact, one of the best gags of the episode is that he stands in his prison shoes fully expecting to be cleared and allowed in, and then is unpleasantly surprised when he’s reminded of what he did.

    To me, that suggests that the guilt is sincere but buried deep down, subconsciously, to the point where Rimmer doesn’t even consciously think of himself as guilty of the deaths he caused. I think that runs counter to the self-delusion scenario that Kryten outlines.

    The trouble is, I think Kryten’s argument is *so* convincing that even the viewers start to think to themselves “yeah, hang on, how could Rimmer get anywhere near something that important?”. And I think that disconnect is exacerbated by the rewrites to The End that makes Second and Third Technicians more lowly than originally intended.

    I think the truth lies somewhere between the idea of Rimmer being as deluded and buffoonish as Kryten argues, and the idea that he’s solely responsible. The truth is that he’s someone incompetent who was tasked with something that was too complicated and important for him to handle, and he cocked it up as a result.

    #230697
    Hamish
    Participant

    > Or am I misremembering the episode?

    No, you are remembering that one scene in Entangled fairly well.

    #230698
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >But then why would Rimmer feel guilty about it?

    Well, the argument that Kryten (although, not necessarily, the episode) puts forward is that Rimmer, yearning for self-importance, imagined the scenario that he was responsible for repairing the drive plate…and then he fucked it up and killed everyone.

    As you say, the fact that he’s subsequently forgotten it and no longer feels consciously guilty for it, means that it all seems pretty flimsy.

    And yet somehow it works. The Prosecution says “this court accepts that, in your case, the mind probe is not an adequate method of ascertaining guilt”, but I’d think that it creates such a precedent, as to undermine the the use of mind probe for *anyone*. (I’d also query whether Simulants even feel guilt about anything…)

    I’m of the opinion that Rimmer still fucks up the drive plate in Series IV continuity, doesn’t feel massive guilt over it and Kryten’s lying has become sophisticated…but I do find it odd how the episode never bothers to state this. The episode reminds the audience of a fact, spends 10 minutes convincing another character that the fact is untrue…but never clarifies the actual truth.

    #230701
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    >Undermine the use of the mind probe for *anyone*

    Good news for this guy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrvh_jB6c70

    #230702
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I always just thought he was tricking the mind probe by leaving out certain bits of truth, but I don’t think anything Kryten says implies Rimmer wasn’t responsible in canon.

    By going on about how inexplicable it’d be that they’d get a vending machine repair man to fix a drive plate he convinces the probe that it’s merely misplaced guilt rather than actual culpability despite the fact Rimmer was sent to repair the driveplate, because he knows that the only evidence the probe has to work with is Rimmer’s mind, not records and CCTV, as such the probe knows what kind of person Rimmer is, the “his ship, his fault” stuff and lets him off.

    Simply

    Is Rimmer guilty/ does he feel guilt?

    Yes

    Does Rimmer think the smooth running of Red Dwarf is his responsibility?

    Yes

    Considering his rank, is it likely he would have been asked to repair the driveplate?

    No

    As such not guilty.

    #230704

    > The captain was Dennis the donut boy, after all.

    Nope.

    Wasn’t.

    #230705
    Dave
    Participant

    because he knows that the only evidence the probe has to work with is Rimmer’s mind, not records and CCTV

    It does rather show up the nonsensical nature of the process. Why consider evidence and facts when you can just test whether someone feels subjectively guilty about it?

    Presumably genuine psychopaths who know they are culpable but feel no remorse or guilt for their crimes would get off scott free every time.

    #230706
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    So did the enormous explosion fix the drive plate all on its own? Or is Red Dwarf now operating without a drive plate? What did it do, and why did it have one if they just explode, killing everybody, and seemingly serve no other function? Is the drive plate the appendix of interplanetary mining spaceships?

    #230707
    Dave
    Participant

    I assumed Holly fixed it afterwards. Which makes you wonder why he didn’t just do it in the first place.

    #230710

    The ‘Rimmer caused the accident’ explanation is hinted at and referred to in VIII and X, so I don’t think it was ever fully retconned. I think in Justice it’s a mixture of the fact that Rimmer never murdered anybody (it’d be manslaughter at most), displaced blame (Rimmer was not appropriately trained for the role – perhaps somebody gave him the chance to better himself? – and therefore is not responsible) and Kryten’s exaggeration based on fact (Rimmer’s incompetence) and an opportunity to lay into Rimmer.

    At the same time, it’s probably best to acknowledge that, continuity-wise, it’s not one of the best scenes, and this is the sort of nonsense Doug & Rob did a lot of in the middle years of the show.

    #230711
    bloodteller
    Participant

    >So did the enormous explosion fix the drive plate all on its own? Or is Red Dwarf now operating without a drive plate?

    if i recall correctly it’s mentioned in various bits of dialogue that there’s more than one drive plate, so presumably if just one blows up it doesn’t stop the ship from working. e.g. “There’s a potentially lethal scenario involving drive plates, sir. If one of these plates is misrepaired…”. So for all we know there’s thousands of drive plates onboard the ship, whatever they actually are.

    #230719
    Warbodog
    Participant

    >The ‘Rimmer caused the accident’ explanation is hinted at and referred to in VIII and X, so I don’t think it was ever fully retconned.

    I feel like the improvised retconning ended in VII (with its new Kochanski and reimagined blue Space Corps uniforms) and the old TV continuity was respected more from VIII onwards, after Remastered revived it (old-style uniforms, referencing Future Echoes and drive plates, feeling the need to explain visual changes to the ship in dialogue). They hung on to useful retconned things like the 1,000+ crew (presumably) and the Lister-Kochanski relationship.

    #230720
    Warbodog
    Participant

    It’s also odd that IV doesn’t retcon things the same way they did in the novels, where the crew was 11,000+ and it starts in the late 22nd century (eventually used in Ouroboros, which also mentions Kryten Rimmering the Nova 5 crew).

    Did 11,169 sound like too many to be funny in Justice? Did “enlightened 22nd century guy” not have the right cadence?

    #230734
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    <<I assumed Holly fixed it afterwards. Which makes you wonder why he didn’t just do it in the first place. >>

    Because the service robots have a better union than the technicians.

    #230834
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Also, how come the justicefield didn’t discover Kryten’s guilt over the deaths of the Nova 5 crew? Ok, it was an accident, but he’s at least technically guilty of that as Rimmer is of killing the Red Dwarf crew.

    #230835
    bloodteller
    Participant

    didn’t the Nova 5 crew die of old age? their skeletons are still there and such, so i always thought that was the case

    #230836
    Dave
    Participant

    It isn’t retconned as Kryten’s fault until series VII, is it?

    #230837
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Either way, Kryten was oblivious to the fact that the crew of the Nova 5 were even dead, so wouldn’t recognise it as his fault. It could be argued that he realised/was told what happened by the time of VII, but yes it is a retcon I think.

    #230844
    Taiwan Tony
    Participant

    Wasn’t it his fault in the book?

    #230845
    Dave
    Participant

    Yes. I think it’s one of those book differences that eventually made its way into the series.

    #230846
    bloodteller
    Participant

    is it ever established in the book that him ‘cleaning’ the computer and causing the ship to crash was what actually killed the crew, though? they aren’t dead by the end of the chapter, so i always just assumed they lived out the rest of their lives stuck on the ship with Kryten, rather than them all dying in the crash.

    #230847
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    His cleaning of the computer resulted in the deaths of all those in the stasis booths, so he’s at least guilty of creating the accident that killed them. Tracy, Jane and Ann died of old age. But you’d have thought he at least subliminally knew as he had the idea to put them in wigs.

    #230856

    > But you’d have thought he at least subliminally knew as he had the idea to put them in wigs.

    Maybe Kryten thought when they had become skeletons that they had just ‘gone grey’.

    #230859
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I only watched Psycho recently, and was a bit annoyed at Rimmer for having twice spoiled the big reveal in ‘Kryten’ and ‘DNA.’

    #230860
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Back to Reality, not DNA. I was getting my mysterious ancient corpses mixed up.

    #230861
    Dave
    Participant

    Casablanca next?

    #230869
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I haven’t seen the sixth sense because the twist ending has been ruined by the simpsons, scrubs, the lonely island etc. It’s now common knowledge like what’s the capital of France and what colour is the sky.

    #230870
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I’m also aware of what happens in Psycho despite never having watched it, and RIP to anybody who didn’t watch Empire Strikes Back when they were very young

    #230907
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Psycho and The Sixth Sense are much more than just their twists.

    Empire’s twist is spoiled for new viewers simply if they watch the films in episode order. So they’re fucked either way.

    #230909

    Watching films like the Sixth Sense or Shutter Island etc, knowing the ending, is great as you get to see how the twist plays out in the film and how it is subtle but also obvious once you know that that is what is going on … if that makes sense?

    Sure it’d be nice to have experienced it first and then gone back and watch it again, but it shouldn’t stop you watching just because you know how it ends. As Pete Part Three says, the films are more than just the twist ending.

    #230919
    Toxteth O-Grady
    Participant

    Is there anyone left who doesn’t already know the twist ending of Planet of the Apes (1968)?
    If references in things like The Simpsons hadn’t already spoiled it for you, then simply look at the cover of the home video release. Or watch the recent reboot/prequel trilogy.

    #230924
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    That is another one that’s just sort of, known. The baby at the end of 2001, is another thing that’s now as much a part of popular culture as it is a bit in a film. Everybody dying at the end of Blackadder, as well, I haven’t seen that either.

    But then, you know the Doctor is going to regenerate every single time and you can still get a cracking good story out of it. Even Hartnell – Troughton I think was announced beforehand.

    And sometimes even when a character death/twist is a surprise (the end of The Last Jedi) it can still be shit.

    #230947
    Warbodog
    Participant

    >Is there anyone left who doesn’t already know the twist ending of Planet of the Apes (1968)?

    My wife didn’t know it, but assumed what was going on straight away, since it’s blatant if you watch enough sci-fi and Twilight Zone specifically. She was also unspoiled when we watched Empire Strikes Back, Sixth Sense, all Nu Who regenerations except the last one (only because I told her), Simpsons-spoiled Twilight Zones, and basically all films and TV. She won’t watch Red Dwarf though.

    #230948
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    >She was also unspoiled when we watched Empire Strikes Back
    Literally how? Did she not consume a single piece of popular media pre-Empire?
    I’d say because of how everybody knows the Doctor is going to regenerate anyway, the stories are designed in such a way as to be more effective with that knowledge, as none of them are really surprising in any way because they don’t try to be. You get to enjoy all the foreshadowing and events with the dramatic irony of knowing what’s coming, even if you don’t know the specifics.

    #230950
    Warbodog
    Participant

    >Literally how?

    Different cultural background, or just bad taste pre- my great taste. Things sometimes remind her of childhood anime I have no knowledge of. Even if you once saw an “I am your father” parody with some robot-looking guy 10 years ago, there are lots of things with robot-looking guys.

    #230951

    “I’d also forgotten that Kryten refers to Rimmer as a “retard” at one point. Urgh.”

    Urgh. Virtue signalling. Yuck.

    #230953
    bloodteller
    Participant

    >I’d also forgotten that Kryten refers to Rimmer as a “retard” at one point. Urgh.

    i wonder what the initial reaction to that line was at the time? surely it can’t have been considered such a horrible word at the time if it was being casually used on BBC 2.

    #230954
    Dave
    Participant

    I think it’s a case of a word being more widely recognised as offensive now than it was then, certainly.

    There are a few jokes from early Red Dwarf that played fine at the time but are a bit more wince-inducing now.

    #230957

    My wife didn’t know it, but assumed what was going on straight away

    Ha, my girlfriend was the same – I hid the DVD sleeve from her before watching, but after five minutes after they landed she said “I bet they’re back on Earth”

    #230960
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I actually researched the history of the word retard after reading that comment and it’s vaguely interesting. Stuff to be made about how “idiot” and “moron” used to be just as bad as “retard” but now aren’t, leading me to wonder if one day “retard” will be on the same level as those words.

    “…during the 1960s when “there was a push among disability advocates to use the label mental retardation”.This push from advocates was because older terms for the mentally disabled, like moron, imbecile, feeble-minded and idiot, had developed negative meanings. Retard was not used to refer to mentally disabled people until 1985. It was widely accepted to refer to people who are mentally disabled as mentally retarded, or as a retard. From there, it turned quickly into a pejorative term….”

    #230964
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    This is going to be The Spastics Society all over again.

    #230971
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Urgh. Virtue signalling. Yuck.

    Yeah, that’s what that is. Nothing to do with the fact that I’ve had a bunch of experiences since I last saw the episode, and that’s influenced how I view that term.

    I guess you don’t feel uncomfortable about Major saying “w*gs” and “n***ers” in Fawlty Towers, either.

    #230973

    “I guess you don’t feel uncomfortable about Major saying “w*gs” and “n***ers” in Fawlty Towers, either.”

    Wigs? Nutters? Errrr not really.

    :/

    #230974
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    God i haven’t heard the word wags since about 2007, took me a second to realise how w*gs could be offensive. Footballers wives, innit?

    Maybe it’ll turn out that Red Dwarf is actually just extremely prescient and none of these words are actually offensive in the future, making the show an accurate depiction of 23rd century society

    #230975
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Although I’m still not convinced that WAGs is such a horrific word it requires asterisks. Am I missing something?

    #230977
    Dave
    Participant

    Golly, I think you might be.

    #230978

    > Although I’m still not convinced that WAGs is such a horrific word it requires asterisks. Am I missing something?

    It’s because they are such slags.

    #230980
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    It’s not a word that anybody I have ever come into contact with has ever used, sonI probably don’t get it. Us it an English thing?

    #230982
    bloodteller
    Participant

    i’d never heard the word before until just now when it was mentioned on the forum, so I’m kind of lost here too. according to google it just means the wives/girlfriends of sports people?

    #230983
    clem
    Participant

    Wrong vowel, lads.

    #230984
    bloodteller
    Participant

    oh christ

    #230985
    bloodteller
    Participant

    >There are a few jokes from early Red Dwarf that played fine at the time but are a bit more wince-inducing now.

    out of interest, which jokes would those be? the only one i can think of that seems a bit iffy now is Rimmer’s line about “Awful is when you’re fumbling with your date in the back of your car and you discover she’s got testicles” which could be viewed as transphobic or something

    #230986
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Wigs? Wegs? Wugs? Wygs?

    ….oh nevermind I worked it out.

    Also drug-crazed transvestite is one of those, I think bloodteller. And people also have issues with any gay panic stuff or the McGruder having a concussion stuff

    #230987
    pi r squared
    Participant

    Whilst I’m sure the sentence would be rephrased if written in 2018, it is worth pointing out that Kryten refers to Rimmer as an “emotional retard” (ie. emotionally-stunted, which is reasonably apt) rather than calling him a “retard” outright. Not ideal but at least marginally less offensive, and I’m sure – like Steve Coogan famously regretting using “spastic” in I’m Alan Partridge – that Doug and Rob would probably rewrite it if they could.

    As a half-black person, I don’t enjoy the Major’s niggers and wogs “joke” in Fawlty Towers, but I appreciate that (a) it’s a product of its time, (b) the point is supposed to be demonstrating the Major’s senility and outdated (even for 1974) values and is therefore meant to be uncomfortable, and (c) even in those days it only gets a pretty lukewarm response from the audience.

    Judging a 1991 episode by 2018 sensibilities is always going to be tough and acceptable language and behaviour will inevitably change. Growing up, our family would happily use the terms “half-caste” and “coloured” to describe ourselves (leading to my toddler sister happily describing herself as “coloured-in” to people!) but this would be frowned upon nowadays, even though our mixed race little unit was anything but racist.

    #230988
    Dave
    Participant

    out of interest, which jokes would those be? the only one i can think of that seems a bit iffy now is Rimmer’s line about “Awful is when you’re fumbling with your date in the back of your car and you discover she’s got testicles” which could be viewed as transphobic or something

    Mostly ones revolving around gender politics spring to mind. Not a huge deal but they just play a little differently now.

    Largely though I think the show’s comedy is pretty timeless.

    #230989
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Wigs? Nutters? Errrr not really.

    Hey, Rameses. How about we just ignore each other going forward? Two threads in, and I’m already sick of you.

    > is worth pointing out that Kryten refers to Rimmer as an “emotional retard”

    Yes, I appreciate this is the intention. Unfortunately, if you stick a bunch of adjectives (“neurotic”, “under-achieving”) in front of the term, it gets a bit lost.

    #230990
    bloodteller
    Participant

    >Yes, I appreciate this is the intention. Unfortunately, if you stick a bunch of adjectives (“neurotic”, “under-achieving”) in front of the term, it gets a bit lost.

    if it’s any consolation the Dave repeats of the episode remove the “under-acheiving emotional retard” part of the sentence and so Kryten just calls him a neurotic

    #230991

    > Hey, Rameses. How about we just ignore each other going forward? Two threads in, and I’m already sick of you.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    #230994
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Honestly, if you’re straight you wouldn’t exactly want to find out your date had balls, but i could imagine somebody thinking up a joke like that today and thinking “ooh, better not” and binning it. Worth noting that I know quite a few transgender people who make jokes like that anyway, and would be fine if i did similar. It’s quite interesting what exactly they deem offensive and inoffensive, often they’re fine with jokes like that but then there are very specific things you’d never even think about which bother them.

    Either I’m young enough to have never really heard “wogs” or it just doesn’t get used by people i know, i only vaguely know what it even means. Which shows its a pretty old-fashioned term.

    “Emotional retard” does soften the blow a little bit, up until now i thought he had actually just straight up called him retarded and I had somehow forgotten. I would absolutely change the line were it being written today, but flat out censoring it is a curious idea (I believe things should be presented as-was for the most part, but of course there will be guidelines for this sort of thing)

    #230995
    bloodteller
    Participant

    >Worth noting that I know quite a few transgender people who make jokes like that anyway, and would be fine if i did similar. It’s quite interesting what exactly they deem offensive and inoffensive, often they’re fine with jokes like that but then there are very specific things you’d never even think about which bother them.

    yeah, i mean i’m transgender and i don’t find the joke offensive- honestly i think it’s a pretty funny line. but i do know plenty of people in the LGBTQ community who would probably get offended by it. either way it’s on Bodysnatcher which is a ludicrously hard to find DVD (saw it in CeX today for 42.00!) so you’d have to be actively searching for that to even stumble across the line to begin with

    #230997
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Not counting VIII bollocks, the main one I’ve found “a bit dodgy” is the way Lister/Craig delivers the “drug-crazed transvestite” line in Balance of Power, where it doesn’t really come across that he’s jokingly making light of Goering’s slightly worse traits. When he brings up the same points in Meltdown, it just seems like fun trivia Lister (/Rob/Doug) picked up from a documentary he watched.

    I know a lot of old comedies treated rape for laughs, but Rimmer taking advantage of McGruder was always supposed to be horrible. Pre-Me² Rimmer really isn’t likeable, we just love him already. “Served her right for being concussed” doesn’t get a knowing laugh, and Lister makes a disapproving face.

    #231003
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    That’s how I see it, Worbo, it’s more a joke at the expense of Rimmer thab MacGruder. How does the transvestite line come off to you?

    Maybe that gag laughing at JFK’s successor crossdressing would catch some flak today, but similar gags were being made right up until the late 00’s.

    Transvestite feels like an old fashioned term as well, to the point that I’m not even that sure what it’s actually supposed to mean. This is what Google is for, though

    #231005

    I’ve never seen a fan-base so offended by a show they claim to love. I remember the series 11 podcasts and practically every week ‘someone’ was offended by something or other.

    I don’t know how some of you leave your house in the morning. I almost feel sorry for you in a way.

    #231009

    Yes, I think you’re mixing up ‘finding stuff problematic’ and ‘being so upset as to not be able to leave the house’ there. Not something I’d get confused at, but just wanted to clear that up for you.

    #231011
    Dave
    Participant

    I almost feel sorry for him in a way.

    #231012
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Yeah i feel sorry for people like him, honestly

    #231016
    bloodteller
    Participant

    >I’ve never seen a fan-base so offended by a show they claim to love.

    you can love a show and still find parts of it offensive, shit, or offensively shit. most people here like Red Dwarf as a whole but despise Pete, for example.

    don’t know if anyone hated Pete so much they were unable to leave the house though.

    #231017

    Yes, I think there’s a lot more ire expressed at the shitness of VIII than there is at the occasionally mis-judged joke, but nobody ever feels sorry for people for that. Frankly, I think I’m deserving some sympathy for how angry VIII makes me.

    #231019
    clem
    Participant

    Very often on my days off work, I *don’t* leave my house in the morning! Same goes for when I’m on late shifts. Anyway I live in a flat.

    #231020

    Where’s My Thribble?

    #231023
    Hamish
    Participant

    > Very often on my days off work, I *don’t* leave my house in the morning!

    But is it because of Pete or Timewave?

    For me it is Timewave.

    #231024

    > Very often on my days off work, I *don’t* leave my house in the morning! Same goes for when I’m on late shifts. Anyway I live in a flat.

    Then my out of context taken comment wasn’t meant for the likes of you. But thanks for playing though.

    I live in a bungalow myself. It’s a college night so I’m not allowed out.

    #231029
    Ben Paddon
    Participant
    #231034

    #231036
    Taiwan Tony
    Participant

    >I’ve reached Justice in my rewatch

    Where are you at now? And will you be watching, you know, all of it?
    Sometimes I occasionally think about watching 7 and 8 again.

    #231040

    Don’t do it.

    #231041
    Taiwan Tony
    Participant

    Okay, I won’t.

    #231046
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    7 is worth a revisit. 8 exists.

    #231050
    flanl3
    Participant

    I occasionally still sit up with a start with a sudden rage because I’ve remembered that Timewave exists, but that’s mostly not because it’s offensive, just that it’s utter shit and I’d rather spend an evening smelling my own farts than watching it once.

    #231052
    Katydid
    Participant

    I hope the crap episode in Series XIII is better than Timewave. If it’s at least as good as Can of Worms, we’re fine.

    #231054
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Where are you at now?

    I started with The End on the 30th Anniversary and then switched to doing 2 eps each weekend. Will be watching Meltdown on Saturday, and then Holoship on Sunday. And probably the Series IV DVD documentary at some point.

    I’ve really enjoyed rewatching I-IV because I haven’t seen them in years, and picking up new bits and pieces has been interesting.

    >And will you be watching, you know, all of it?

    I’m borderline interested to see VII again.

    Doubt I have the stamina or inclination to do VIII but haven’t decided 100% either way. I don’t think I’ve seen it properly in about 17 years. Even when it came out on DVD, I remembering slapping on the cast commentaries once but never watching the episodes without that, so the last time I did a proper rewatch was on VHS (pretty sure Bytes 1,2 were the first things I bought on Amazon). I don’t ever tend to change my opinions on Red Dwarf from my initial viewing, so it would just be 4 hours of thinking ‘Oh, yeah. This is why I hate this”.

    Back to Earth is also a struggle for me, but I might get that over with in one sitting via the Director’s Cut.

    #231071

    Timewave possibly has the worst joke in the series history and also one of the biggest let downs of not fulfilling its potential going for it I suppose

    The jail cell scene is better than most of series 8 for me though

    I’d just put all of series 8 in a pile at the end of the recent list if i did it

    #231081
    Katydid
    Participant

    I’d still sooner rewatch Timewave than any of Series VIII. Anyone who says otherwise clearly hasn’t watched VIII in a long time.

    #231091
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I watched it at the start of this year and I’d gladly throw in BitR before Timewave, which I rewatched last month. All of it, the extended version.

    #231092
    Hamish
    Participant

    Well, I actually did re-watch Pete and Krytie TV alongside Timewave in order to finalize my Pearl Poll rankings last January. I left Timewave exactly where it was – at the bottom.

    #231097
    Dave
    Participant

    I watched VIII a few months before voting too.

    Timewave was third from bottom, only Pete Part One and Krytie TV were worse.

    #231098
    bloodteller
    Participant

    >I’d still sooner rewatch Timewave than any of Series VIII. Anyone who says otherwise clearly hasn’t watched VIII in a long time.

    i watched VIII last week. i still think Timewave is a lot worse than anything in VIII tbh.

    #231099
    bloodteller
    Participant

    despite being shit, Pete Part 2 at least has some funny jokes in it that make me laugh. Timewave was shit *and* not funny, so that made Timewave the worse episode tbh. i think i did put it at the absolute bottom in the latest poll

    #231100

    Timewave was pretty good

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