April 22, 2018 at 10:24 am #230668
Pete Part Three
I’ve reached Justice in my rewatch, and I’m always intrigued over Kryten’s defence of Rimmer.
The Justice field works by detecting a person’s guilt (rather than trying to determine actual culpability), and Kryten’s defence hinges on this. He argues that Rimmer couldn’t possibly be guilty of 2nd degree murder, as his responsibilities extended no further than repairing vending machines. It’s Rimmer’s grand delusions over his role on Red Dwarf that is feeding his guilt.
Interestingly, you could possibly argue that his death scene in Me2 is a faked reconstruction along these lines; Hollister yelling at Rimmer “It was your responsibility to fix the drive plate” could be a warped Rimmer’s way of remembering the accident, but there’s clearly several lines in The End which confirm that Rimmer *was* responsible, and he *was* in the drive room when he died (despite clearly not having a reason to go there regularly).
The curious thing is that Justice never actually reveals whether this is Rob and Doug retconning events (and bringing things in line with Infinity, as they did a lot throughout Series IV) or whether Kryten is deliberately lying. Is it seeding the court-case later, when Kryten says “Boy, I’m really getting the hang of this “lie mode.”” when they enter Justice World, or just a coincidence?.
I’d also forgotten that Kryten refers to Rimmer as a “retard” at one point. Urgh.April 22, 2018 at 10:49 am #230671
The whole drive plate thing never made much sense to me anyway. Why would a mere 2nd technician, more used to ensuring that the chicken soup nozzle on vending machines wasn’t clogged, be entrusted with repairing such a vital piece of equipment such as the drive plate? Rimmer may have guilt over the incident but he still blames Lister for it, saying that if he had some help while fixing it, it wouldn’t have happened. So if Lister was unavailable as he was in stasis, why wasn’t someone else assigned to help Rimmer?April 22, 2018 at 12:07 pm #230672
>I’d also forgotten that Kryten refers to Rimmer as a “retard” at one point. Urgh.
Careful. Better Dead Than Smeg will be calling you for a chat.April 22, 2018 at 12:53 pm #230673
>The whole drive plate thing never made much sense to me anyway. Why would a mere 2nd technician, more used to ensuring that the chicken soup nozzle on vending machines wasn’t clogged, be entrusted with repairing such a vital piece of equipment such as the drive plate?
it’s implied in Back In The Red that repairing the drive plates is an incredibly easy task- presumably Rimmer was given the job of fixing them because Hollister assumed that not even Rimmer was stupid enough to botch such an easy task.April 22, 2018 at 12:54 pm #230674
it’s like a person trying to unclog a toilet but somehow messing up and flooding the entire houseApril 22, 2018 at 1:07 pm #230675
I’m leaning towards retcon now, and that’s weird.
I’ve always taken that scene as Kryten not denying the events, but putting the blame on the yo-gurt who assigned the task to someone inept who was bound to fail, and the Justice computer conveniently finding that an acceptable excuse.
But reading the dialogue, Kryten rejects the possibility it even happened, and the verdict is “It is not possible for you to have committed the crimes.” Even though it is possible because it did happen (at least in the original continuity).April 22, 2018 at 1:58 pm #230676
I always believed that the job of fixing the drive plate was given to Rimmer, but shouldn’t have been. Either they underestimated the importance of the job and had no idea it could go so catastrophically wrong, or they were just idiots. The captain was Dennis the donut boy, after all.April 22, 2018 at 2:02 pm #230678
Also Skipper confirms Rimmer’s claim that if Lister was here the crisis would have been averted by showing us the universe in which Lister becomes captain. In that episode he also mentions a cash payoff to keep shtum and I think implies that he discovered the fault, so perhaps we can take that to mean that a radiation leak was not a known possibility at the time of Rimmer fixing the drive plate, so the idea that the job wasn’t seen as thay critical works. Now that’s a retcon.April 22, 2018 at 2:47 pm #230681
The whole drive plate thing never made much sense to me anyway. Why would a mere 2nd technician, more used to ensuring that the chicken soup nozzle on vending machines wasn’t clogged, be entrusted with repairing such a vital piece of equipment such as the drive plate?
Isn’t it a hangover from the original version of The End, where they weren’t quite such lowly vending-machine repairmen, but were engineers who actually had to fix reasonably important machinery?
Justice probably just inadvertently calls undue attention to the fact that rewrites to The End made it a lot less plausible that Rimmer would be entrusted with such important repair work.
I think it’s pretty well-established in-universe that Rimmer was responsible for the leak though. So in that respect, yes, Kryten is lying during the trial.April 22, 2018 at 3:04 pm #230691
>I think it’s pretty well-established in-universe that Rimmer was responsible for the leak though.
No Kochanski relationship + 169 crew members were also concrete facts from dialogue in multiple episodes, that’s why it seems like it might be another of those post-novel retcons that’s less obvious. I can’t remember if/when Rimmer’s drive plate culpability is mentioned again, but the continuity’s a mish-mash in VIII and beyond.April 22, 2018 at 3:09 pm #230695
Kryten is using the determinism defence in that it is the fault of the person/system who gave Rimmer the job rather than the fault of Rimmer himself. Logically this means that it is the fault of the person/system who caused the person/system who chose Rimmer to choose him, and it is the fault of the person/system who resulted in them doing that doing that, and so on and so on, thus proving that nobody could be guilty of anything unless they were God, and the Justice Computer decides that God cannot exist, therefore nobody can possible be guilty of anything, therefore the Justice Computer has no purpose and explodes.
Or am I misremembering the episode?April 22, 2018 at 3:43 pm #230696
No Kochanski relationship + 169 crew members were also concrete facts from dialogue in multiple episodes, that’s why it seems like it might be another of those post-novel retcons that’s less obvious.
Yeah, I suppose that’s fair. But then why would Rimmer feel guilty about it?
The interesting thing about Justice is that the judgement process is not like The Inquisitor, so it’s not as though Rimmer is judging *himself* as being guilty over the incident. In fact, one of the best gags of the episode is that he stands in his prison shoes fully expecting to be cleared and allowed in, and then is unpleasantly surprised when he’s reminded of what he did.
To me, that suggests that the guilt is sincere but buried deep down, subconsciously, to the point where Rimmer doesn’t even consciously think of himself as guilty of the deaths he caused. I think that runs counter to the self-delusion scenario that Kryten outlines.
The trouble is, I think Kryten’s argument is *so* convincing that even the viewers start to think to themselves “yeah, hang on, how could Rimmer get anywhere near something that important?”. And I think that disconnect is exacerbated by the rewrites to The End that makes Second and Third Technicians more lowly than originally intended.
I think the truth lies somewhere between the idea of Rimmer being as deluded and buffoonish as Kryten argues, and the idea that he’s solely responsible. The truth is that he’s someone incompetent who was tasked with something that was too complicated and important for him to handle, and he cocked it up as a result.April 22, 2018 at 3:57 pm #230697
> Or am I misremembering the episode?
No, you are remembering that one scene in Entangled fairly well.April 22, 2018 at 4:23 pm #230698
Pete Part Three
>But then why would Rimmer feel guilty about it?
Well, the argument that Kryten (although, not necessarily, the episode) puts forward is that Rimmer, yearning for self-importance, imagined the scenario that he was responsible for repairing the drive plate…and then he fucked it up and killed everyone.
As you say, the fact that he’s subsequently forgotten it and no longer feels consciously guilty for it, means that it all seems pretty flimsy.
And yet somehow it works. The Prosecution says “this court accepts that, in your case, the mind probe is not an adequate method of ascertaining guilt”, but I’d think that it creates such a precedent, as to undermine the the use of mind probe for *anyone*. (I’d also query whether Simulants even feel guilt about anything…)
I’m of the opinion that Rimmer still fucks up the drive plate in Series IV continuity, doesn’t feel massive guilt over it and Kryten’s lying has become sophisticated…but I do find it odd how the episode never bothers to state this. The episode reminds the audience of a fact, spends 10 minutes convincing another character that the fact is untrue…but never clarifies the actual truth.April 22, 2018 at 4:44 pm #230701
>Undermine the use of the mind probe for *anyone*
Good news for this guy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrvh_jB6c70April 22, 2018 at 5:12 pm #230702
I always just thought he was tricking the mind probe by leaving out certain bits of truth, but I don’t think anything Kryten says implies Rimmer wasn’t responsible in canon.
By going on about how inexplicable it’d be that they’d get a vending machine repair man to fix a drive plate he convinces the probe that it’s merely misplaced guilt rather than actual culpability despite the fact Rimmer was sent to repair the driveplate, because he knows that the only evidence the probe has to work with is Rimmer’s mind, not records and CCTV, as such the probe knows what kind of person Rimmer is, the “his ship, his fault” stuff and lets him off.
Is Rimmer guilty/ does he feel guilt?
Does Rimmer think the smooth running of Red Dwarf is his responsibility?
Considering his rank, is it likely he would have been asked to repair the driveplate?
As such not guilty.April 22, 2018 at 5:40 pm #230704
Me Own Stunts
> The captain was Dennis the donut boy, after all.
Wasn’t.April 22, 2018 at 5:56 pm #230705
because he knows that the only evidence the probe has to work with is Rimmer’s mind, not records and CCTV
It does rather show up the nonsensical nature of the process. Why consider evidence and facts when you can just test whether someone feels subjectively guilty about it?
Presumably genuine psychopaths who know they are culpable but feel no remorse or guilt for their crimes would get off scott free every time.April 22, 2018 at 5:57 pm #230706
So did the enormous explosion fix the drive plate all on its own? Or is Red Dwarf now operating without a drive plate? What did it do, and why did it have one if they just explode, killing everybody, and seemingly serve no other function? Is the drive plate the appendix of interplanetary mining spaceships?April 22, 2018 at 5:59 pm #230707
I assumed Holly fixed it afterwards. Which makes you wonder why he didn’t just do it in the first place.April 22, 2018 at 6:23 pm #230710
The ‘Rimmer caused the accident’ explanation is hinted at and referred to in VIII and X, so I don’t think it was ever fully retconned. I think in Justice it’s a mixture of the fact that Rimmer never murdered anybody (it’d be manslaughter at most), displaced blame (Rimmer was not appropriately trained for the role – perhaps somebody gave him the chance to better himself? – and therefore is not responsible) and Kryten’s exaggeration based on fact (Rimmer’s incompetence) and an opportunity to lay into Rimmer.
At the same time, it’s probably best to acknowledge that, continuity-wise, it’s not one of the best scenes, and this is the sort of nonsense Doug & Rob did a lot of in the middle years of the show.April 22, 2018 at 7:01 pm #230711
>So did the enormous explosion fix the drive plate all on its own? Or is Red Dwarf now operating without a drive plate?
if i recall correctly it’s mentioned in various bits of dialogue that there’s more than one drive plate, so presumably if just one blows up it doesn’t stop the ship from working. e.g. “There’s a potentially lethal scenario involving drive plates, sir. If one of these plates is misrepaired…”. So for all we know there’s thousands of drive plates onboard the ship, whatever they actually are.April 22, 2018 at 11:03 pm #230719
>The ‘Rimmer caused the accident’ explanation is hinted at and referred to in VIII and X, so I don’t think it was ever fully retconned.
I feel like the improvised retconning ended in VII (with its new Kochanski and reimagined blue Space Corps uniforms) and the old TV continuity was respected more from VIII onwards, after Remastered revived it (old-style uniforms, referencing Future Echoes and drive plates, feeling the need to explain visual changes to the ship in dialogue). They hung on to useful retconned things like the 1,000+ crew (presumably) and the Lister-Kochanski relationship.April 22, 2018 at 11:16 pm #230720
It’s also odd that IV doesn’t retcon things the same way they did in the novels, where the crew was 11,000+ and it starts in the late 22nd century (eventually used in Ouroboros, which also mentions Kryten Rimmering the Nova 5 crew).
Did 11,169 sound like too many to be funny in Justice? Did “enlightened 22nd century guy” not have the right cadence?April 24, 2018 at 12:40 am #230734
<<I assumed Holly fixed it afterwards. Which makes you wonder why he didn’t just do it in the first place. >>
Because the service robots have a better union than the technicians.April 27, 2018 at 5:34 pm #230834
Also, how come the justicefield didn’t discover Kryten’s guilt over the deaths of the Nova 5 crew? Ok, it was an accident, but he’s at least technically guilty of that as Rimmer is of killing the Red Dwarf crew.April 27, 2018 at 5:54 pm #230835
didn’t the Nova 5 crew die of old age? their skeletons are still there and such, so i always thought that was the caseApril 27, 2018 at 6:48 pm #230836
It isn’t retconned as Kryten’s fault until series VII, is it?April 27, 2018 at 7:28 pm #230837
Either way, Kryten was oblivious to the fact that the crew of the Nova 5 were even dead, so wouldn’t recognise it as his fault. It could be argued that he realised/was told what happened by the time of VII, but yes it is a retcon I think.April 27, 2018 at 10:05 pm #230844
Wasn’t it his fault in the book?April 27, 2018 at 10:13 pm #230845
Yes. I think it’s one of those book differences that eventually made its way into the series.April 27, 2018 at 10:23 pm #230846
is it ever established in the book that him ‘cleaning’ the computer and causing the ship to crash was what actually killed the crew, though? they aren’t dead by the end of the chapter, so i always just assumed they lived out the rest of their lives stuck on the ship with Kryten, rather than them all dying in the crash.April 27, 2018 at 11:00 pm #230847
His cleaning of the computer resulted in the deaths of all those in the stasis booths, so he’s at least guilty of creating the accident that killed them. Tracy, Jane and Ann died of old age. But you’d have thought he at least subliminally knew as he had the idea to put them in wigs.April 28, 2018 at 12:20 am #230856
Me Own Stunts
> But you’d have thought he at least subliminally knew as he had the idea to put them in wigs.
Maybe Kryten thought when they had become skeletons that they had just ‘gone grey’.April 28, 2018 at 1:31 am #230859
I only watched Psycho recently, and was a bit annoyed at Rimmer for having twice spoiled the big reveal in ‘Kryten’ and ‘DNA.’April 28, 2018 at 1:34 am #230860
Back to Reality, not DNA. I was getting my mysterious ancient corpses mixed up.April 28, 2018 at 9:39 am #230861
Casablanca next?April 28, 2018 at 3:02 pm #230869
I haven’t seen the sixth sense because the twist ending has been ruined by the simpsons, scrubs, the lonely island etc. It’s now common knowledge like what’s the capital of France and what colour is the sky.April 28, 2018 at 3:03 pm #230870
I’m also aware of what happens in Psycho despite never having watched it, and RIP to anybody who didn’t watch Empire Strikes Back when they were very youngApril 29, 2018 at 8:00 am #230907
Pete Part Three
Psycho and The Sixth Sense are much more than just their twists.
Empire’s twist is spoiled for new viewers simply if they watch the films in episode order. So they’re fucked either way.April 29, 2018 at 10:07 am #230909
Watching films like the Sixth Sense or Shutter Island etc, knowing the ending, is great as you get to see how the twist plays out in the film and how it is subtle but also obvious once you know that that is what is going on … if that makes sense?
Sure it’d be nice to have experienced it first and then gone back and watch it again, but it shouldn’t stop you watching just because you know how it ends. As Pete Part Three says, the films are more than just the twist ending.April 29, 2018 at 1:23 pm #230919
Is there anyone left who doesn’t already know the twist ending of Planet of the Apes (1968)?
If references in things like The Simpsons hadn’t already spoiled it for you, then simply look at the cover of the home video release. Or watch the recent reboot/prequel trilogy.April 29, 2018 at 3:12 pm #230924
That is another one that’s just sort of, known. The baby at the end of 2001, is another thing that’s now as much a part of popular culture as it is a bit in a film. Everybody dying at the end of Blackadder, as well, I haven’t seen that either.
But then, you know the Doctor is going to regenerate every single time and you can still get a cracking good story out of it. Even Hartnell – Troughton I think was announced beforehand.
And sometimes even when a character death/twist is a surprise (the end of The Last Jedi) it can still be shit.April 29, 2018 at 11:16 pm #230947
>Is there anyone left who doesn’t already know the twist ending of Planet of the Apes (1968)?
My wife didn’t know it, but assumed what was going on straight away, since it’s blatant if you watch enough sci-fi and Twilight Zone specifically. She was also unspoiled when we watched Empire Strikes Back, Sixth Sense, all Nu Who regenerations except the last one (only because I told her), Simpsons-spoiled Twilight Zones, and basically all films and TV. She won’t watch Red Dwarf though.April 30, 2018 at 12:03 am #230948
>She was also unspoiled when we watched Empire Strikes Back
Literally how? Did she not consume a single piece of popular media pre-Empire?
I’d say because of how everybody knows the Doctor is going to regenerate anyway, the stories are designed in such a way as to be more effective with that knowledge, as none of them are really surprising in any way because they don’t try to be. You get to enjoy all the foreshadowing and events with the dramatic irony of knowing what’s coming, even if you don’t know the specifics.April 30, 2018 at 12:38 am #230950
Different cultural background, or just bad taste pre- my great taste. Things sometimes remind her of childhood anime I have no knowledge of. Even if you once saw an “I am your father” parody with some robot-looking guy 10 years ago, there are lots of things with robot-looking guys.April 30, 2018 at 7:59 am #230951
“I’d also forgotten that Kryten refers to Rimmer as a “retard” at one point. Urgh.”
Urgh. Virtue signalling. Yuck.April 30, 2018 at 10:35 am #230953
>I’d also forgotten that Kryten refers to Rimmer as a “retard” at one point. Urgh.
i wonder what the initial reaction to that line was at the time? surely it can’t have been considered such a horrible word at the time if it was being casually used on BBC 2.April 30, 2018 at 10:44 am #230954
I think it’s a case of a word being more widely recognised as offensive now than it was then, certainly.
There are a few jokes from early Red Dwarf that played fine at the time but are a bit more wince-inducing now.April 30, 2018 at 11:10 am #230957
My wife didn’t know it, but assumed what was going on straight away
Ha, my girlfriend was the same – I hid the DVD sleeve from her before watching, but after five minutes after they landed she said “I bet they’re back on Earth”April 30, 2018 at 2:10 pm #230960
I actually researched the history of the word retard after reading that comment and it’s vaguely interesting. Stuff to be made about how “idiot” and “moron” used to be just as bad as “retard” but now aren’t, leading me to wonder if one day “retard” will be on the same level as those words.
“…during the 1960s when “there was a push among disability advocates to use the label mental retardation”.This push from advocates was because older terms for the mentally disabled, like moron, imbecile, feeble-minded and idiot, had developed negative meanings. Retard was not used to refer to mentally disabled people until 1985. It was widely accepted to refer to people who are mentally disabled as mentally retarded, or as a retard. From there, it turned quickly into a pejorative term….”April 30, 2018 at 2:35 pm #230964
This is going to be The Spastics Society all over again.April 30, 2018 at 4:32 pm #230971
Pete Part Three
>Urgh. Virtue signalling. Yuck.
Yeah, that’s what that is. Nothing to do with the fact that I’ve had a bunch of experiences since I last saw the episode, and that’s influenced how I view that term.
I guess you don’t feel uncomfortable about Major saying “w*gs” and “n***ers” in Fawlty Towers, either.April 30, 2018 at 5:01 pm #230973
“I guess you don’t feel uncomfortable about Major saying “w*gs” and “n***ers” in Fawlty Towers, either.”
Wigs? Nutters? Errrr not really.
:/April 30, 2018 at 5:09 pm #230974
God i haven’t heard the word wags since about 2007, took me a second to realise how w*gs could be offensive. Footballers wives, innit?
Maybe it’ll turn out that Red Dwarf is actually just extremely prescient and none of these words are actually offensive in the future, making the show an accurate depiction of 23rd century societyApril 30, 2018 at 5:10 pm #230975
Although I’m still not convinced that WAGs is such a horrific word it requires asterisks. Am I missing something?April 30, 2018 at 5:14 pm #230977
Golly, I think you might be.April 30, 2018 at 5:14 pm #230978
> Although I’m still not convinced that WAGs is such a horrific word it requires asterisks. Am I missing something?
It’s because they are such slags.April 30, 2018 at 5:18 pm #230980
It’s not a word that anybody I have ever come into contact with has ever used, sonI probably don’t get it. Us it an English thing?April 30, 2018 at 5:22 pm #230982
i’d never heard the word before until just now when it was mentioned on the forum, so I’m kind of lost here too. according to google it just means the wives/girlfriends of sports people?April 30, 2018 at 5:25 pm #230983
Wrong vowel, lads.April 30, 2018 at 5:26 pm #230984
oh christApril 30, 2018 at 5:29 pm #230985
>There are a few jokes from early Red Dwarf that played fine at the time but are a bit more wince-inducing now.
out of interest, which jokes would those be? the only one i can think of that seems a bit iffy now is Rimmer’s line about “Awful is when you’re fumbling with your date in the back of your car and you discover she’s got testicles” which could be viewed as transphobic or somethingApril 30, 2018 at 5:39 pm #230986
Wigs? Wegs? Wugs? Wygs?
….oh nevermind I worked it out.
Also drug-crazed transvestite is one of those, I think bloodteller. And people also have issues with any gay panic stuff or the McGruder having a concussion stuffApril 30, 2018 at 6:26 pm #230987
pi r squared
Whilst I’m sure the sentence would be rephrased if written in 2018, it is worth pointing out that Kryten refers to Rimmer as an “emotional retard” (ie. emotionally-stunted, which is reasonably apt) rather than calling him a “retard” outright. Not ideal but at least marginally less offensive, and I’m sure – like Steve Coogan famously regretting using “spastic” in I’m Alan Partridge – that Doug and Rob would probably rewrite it if they could.
As a half-black person, I don’t enjoy the Major’s niggers and wogs “joke” in Fawlty Towers, but I appreciate that (a) it’s a product of its time, (b) the point is supposed to be demonstrating the Major’s senility and outdated (even for 1974) values and is therefore meant to be uncomfortable, and (c) even in those days it only gets a pretty lukewarm response from the audience.
Judging a 1991 episode by 2018 sensibilities is always going to be tough and acceptable language and behaviour will inevitably change. Growing up, our family would happily use the terms “half-caste” and “coloured” to describe ourselves (leading to my toddler sister happily describing herself as “coloured-in” to people!) but this would be frowned upon nowadays, even though our mixed race little unit was anything but racist.April 30, 2018 at 6:36 pm #230988
out of interest, which jokes would those be? the only one i can think of that seems a bit iffy now is Rimmer’s line about “Awful is when you’re fumbling with your date in the back of your car and you discover she’s got testicles” which could be viewed as transphobic or something
Mostly ones revolving around gender politics spring to mind. Not a huge deal but they just play a little differently now.
Largely though I think the show’s comedy is pretty timeless.April 30, 2018 at 6:58 pm #230989
Pete Part Three
>Wigs? Nutters? Errrr not really.
Hey, Rameses. How about we just ignore each other going forward? Two threads in, and I’m already sick of you.
> is worth pointing out that Kryten refers to Rimmer as an “emotional retard”
Yes, I appreciate this is the intention. Unfortunately, if you stick a bunch of adjectives (“neurotic”, “under-achieving”) in front of the term, it gets a bit lost.April 30, 2018 at 7:19 pm #230990
>Yes, I appreciate this is the intention. Unfortunately, if you stick a bunch of adjectives (“neurotic”, “under-achieving”) in front of the term, it gets a bit lost.
if it’s any consolation the Dave repeats of the episode remove the “under-acheiving emotional retard” part of the sentence and so Kryten just calls him a neuroticApril 30, 2018 at 7:42 pm #230991
> Hey, Rameses. How about we just ignore each other going forward? Two threads in, and I’m already sick of you.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯April 30, 2018 at 9:21 pm #230994
Honestly, if you’re straight you wouldn’t exactly want to find out your date had balls, but i could imagine somebody thinking up a joke like that today and thinking “ooh, better not” and binning it. Worth noting that I know quite a few transgender people who make jokes like that anyway, and would be fine if i did similar. It’s quite interesting what exactly they deem offensive and inoffensive, often they’re fine with jokes like that but then there are very specific things you’d never even think about which bother them.
Either I’m young enough to have never really heard “wogs” or it just doesn’t get used by people i know, i only vaguely know what it even means. Which shows its a pretty old-fashioned term.
“Emotional retard” does soften the blow a little bit, up until now i thought he had actually just straight up called him retarded and I had somehow forgotten. I would absolutely change the line were it being written today, but flat out censoring it is a curious idea (I believe things should be presented as-was for the most part, but of course there will be guidelines for this sort of thing)April 30, 2018 at 10:49 pm #230995
>Worth noting that I know quite a few transgender people who make jokes like that anyway, and would be fine if i did similar. It’s quite interesting what exactly they deem offensive and inoffensive, often they’re fine with jokes like that but then there are very specific things you’d never even think about which bother them.
yeah, i mean i’m transgender and i don’t find the joke offensive- honestly i think it’s a pretty funny line. but i do know plenty of people in the LGBTQ community who would probably get offended by it. either way it’s on Bodysnatcher which is a ludicrously hard to find DVD (saw it in CeX today for 42.00!) so you’d have to be actively searching for that to even stumble across the line to begin withMay 1, 2018 at 3:56 am #230997
Not counting VIII bollocks, the main one I’ve found “a bit dodgy” is the way Lister/Craig delivers the “drug-crazed transvestite” line in Balance of Power, where it doesn’t really come across that he’s jokingly making light of Goering’s slightly worse traits. When he brings up the same points in Meltdown, it just seems like fun trivia Lister (/Rob/Doug) picked up from a documentary he watched.
I know a lot of old comedies treated rape for laughs, but Rimmer taking advantage of McGruder was always supposed to be horrible. Pre-Me² Rimmer really isn’t likeable, we just love him already. “Served her right for being concussed” doesn’t get a knowing laugh, and Lister makes a disapproving face.May 1, 2018 at 11:04 am #231003
That’s how I see it, Worbo, it’s more a joke at the expense of Rimmer thab MacGruder. How does the transvestite line come off to you?
Maybe that gag laughing at JFK’s successor crossdressing would catch some flak today, but similar gags were being made right up until the late 00’s.
Transvestite feels like an old fashioned term as well, to the point that I’m not even that sure what it’s actually supposed to mean. This is what Google is for, thoughMay 1, 2018 at 12:22 pm #231005
I’ve never seen a fan-base so offended by a show they claim to love. I remember the series 11 podcasts and practically every week ‘someone’ was offended by something or other.
I don’t know how some of you leave your house in the morning. I almost feel sorry for you in a way.May 1, 2018 at 2:36 pm #231009
Yes, I think you’re mixing up ‘finding stuff problematic’ and ‘being so upset as to not be able to leave the house’ there. Not something I’d get confused at, but just wanted to clear that up for you.May 1, 2018 at 2:37 pm #231011
I almost feel sorry for him in a way.May 1, 2018 at 2:54 pm #231012
Yeah i feel sorry for people like him, honestlyMay 1, 2018 at 3:26 pm #231016
>I’ve never seen a fan-base so offended by a show they claim to love.
you can love a show and still find parts of it offensive, shit, or offensively shit. most people here like Red Dwarf as a whole but despise Pete, for example.
don’t know if anyone hated Pete so much they were unable to leave the house though.May 1, 2018 at 3:32 pm #231017
Yes, I think there’s a lot more ire expressed at the shitness of VIII than there is at the occasionally mis-judged joke, but nobody ever feels sorry for people for that. Frankly, I think I’m deserving some sympathy for how angry VIII makes me.May 1, 2018 at 3:38 pm #231019
Very often on my days off work, I *don’t* leave my house in the morning! Same goes for when I’m on late shifts. Anyway I live in a flat.May 1, 2018 at 4:47 pm #231020
Where’s My Thribble?May 1, 2018 at 5:32 pm #231023
> Very often on my days off work, I *don’t* leave my house in the morning!
But is it because of Pete or Timewave?
For me it is Timewave.May 1, 2018 at 6:26 pm #231024
> Very often on my days off work, I *don’t* leave my house in the morning! Same goes for when I’m on late shifts. Anyway I live in a flat.
Then my out of context taken comment wasn’t meant for the likes of you. But thanks for playing though.
I live in a bungalow myself. It’s a college night so I’m not allowed out.May 1, 2018 at 8:25 pm #231029
Ben PaddonMay 1, 2018 at 9:00 pm #231034
RamesesNiblickTheThirdMay 1, 2018 at 9:51 pm #231036
>I’ve reached Justice in my rewatch
Where are you at now? And will you be watching, you know, all of it?
Sometimes I occasionally think about watching 7 and 8 again.May 1, 2018 at 10:13 pm #231040
Don’t do it.May 1, 2018 at 10:18 pm #231041
Okay, I won’t.May 1, 2018 at 11:56 pm #231046
7 is worth a revisit. 8 exists.May 2, 2018 at 3:42 am #231050
I occasionally still sit up with a start with a sudden rage because I’ve remembered that Timewave exists, but that’s mostly not because it’s offensive, just that it’s utter shit and I’d rather spend an evening smelling my own farts than watching it once.May 2, 2018 at 4:59 am #231052
I hope the crap episode in Series XIII is better than Timewave. If it’s at least as good as Can of Worms, we’re fine.May 2, 2018 at 6:18 am #231054
Pete Part Three
>Where are you at now?
I started with The End on the 30th Anniversary and then switched to doing 2 eps each weekend. Will be watching Meltdown on Saturday, and then Holoship on Sunday. And probably the Series IV DVD documentary at some point.
I’ve really enjoyed rewatching I-IV because I haven’t seen them in years, and picking up new bits and pieces has been interesting.
>And will you be watching, you know, all of it?
I’m borderline interested to see VII again.
Doubt I have the stamina or inclination to do VIII but haven’t decided 100% either way. I don’t think I’ve seen it properly in about 17 years. Even when it came out on DVD, I remembering slapping on the cast commentaries once but never watching the episodes without that, so the last time I did a proper rewatch was on VHS (pretty sure Bytes 1,2 were the first things I bought on Amazon). I don’t ever tend to change my opinions on Red Dwarf from my initial viewing, so it would just be 4 hours of thinking ‘Oh, yeah. This is why I hate this”.
Back to Earth is also a struggle for me, but I might get that over with in one sitting via the Director’s Cut.May 2, 2018 at 1:19 pm #231071
Timewave possibly has the worst joke in the series history and also one of the biggest let downs of not fulfilling its potential going for it I suppose
The jail cell scene is better than most of series 8 for me though
I’d just put all of series 8 in a pile at the end of the recent list if i did itMay 2, 2018 at 4:11 pm #231081
I’d still sooner rewatch Timewave than any of Series VIII. Anyone who says otherwise clearly hasn’t watched VIII in a long time.May 2, 2018 at 5:56 pm #231091
I watched it at the start of this year and I’d gladly throw in BitR before Timewave, which I rewatched last month. All of it, the extended version.May 2, 2018 at 5:58 pm #231092
Well, I actually did re-watch Pete and Krytie TV alongside Timewave in order to finalize my Pearl Poll rankings last January. I left Timewave exactly where it was – at the bottom.May 2, 2018 at 7:47 pm #231097
I watched VIII a few months before voting too.
Timewave was third from bottom, only Pete Part One and Krytie TV were worse.May 2, 2018 at 8:02 pm #231098
>I’d still sooner rewatch Timewave than any of Series VIII. Anyone who says otherwise clearly hasn’t watched VIII in a long time.
i watched VIII last week. i still think Timewave is a lot worse than anything in VIII tbh.May 2, 2018 at 8:07 pm #231099
despite being shit, Pete Part 2 at least has some funny jokes in it that make me laugh. Timewave was shit *and* not funny, so that made Timewave the worse episode tbh. i think i did put it at the absolute bottom in the latest pollMay 2, 2018 at 9:18 pm #231100
Bargain Bin Holly
Timewave was pretty goodMay 2, 2018 at 9:25 pm #231101
Timewave made me laugh, and also cringe, and also wince. Most of 8 just makes me cringe and wince.May 3, 2018 at 12:18 am #231108
I watched Cassandra a while ago when Rimmer rape allegations were flying around, I still enjoy it more than the majority of the Dave era and all of VII, and don’t think it’s as dragged down by as much cack as Parallel Universe or Emohawk.
I won’t touch the rest of VIII, but wouldn’t watch half of the new episodes for fun either.May 3, 2018 at 7:22 am #231111
yeah, i enjoy Cassandra far more than most of the Dave era too- it’s a genuinely great episode,i think. there’s just so much good stuff in itMay 3, 2018 at 9:06 am #231117
>I started with The End on the 30th Anniversary and then switched to doing 2 eps each weekend.
This is very restrained, in the age of box set binge watching. Do you find it allows you to digest the episodes as individual entities? If I watch a few episodes of a sitcom, they all merge into one after a while. In the way it doesn’t matter with ongoing narratives like Breaking Bad etc.May 3, 2018 at 10:12 am #231118
I struggle to binge watch stuff that doesn’t have some sort of arc. I’m currently rewatching A Touch of Frost, and the only time I’ll watch more than one episode in a row is when it’s a two-parter.May 3, 2018 at 10:26 am #231119
My slow-binge record is probably Firefly. I’ve been watching for almost two years now (first time) and recently watched episode five. Helps to spread out the short supply, I guess.May 3, 2018 at 1:49 pm #231122
Pete Part Three
>This is very restrained, in the age of box set binge watching. Do you find it allows you to digest the episodes as individual entities?
I’m not too fond of binge watching, particularly stuff which has individual stories per episode. When Sky Atlantic dumped the whole of The Trip to Spain on their on demand service last year, I stil kept to my own vague weekly schedule. It stops things blurring together, certainly.
I HATED when BBC2 first aired Buffy Season 7, and they dumped it on 3/4 days a week. The whole thing wasn’t was done and dusted in a few weeks and a show which previously had a bunch of standout episodes per season blurred into one. This may be emphasised by my distaste over the way they completely embraced the arc that season, mind.
I like spotting stuff I haven’t seen before when I rewatch something. After about 2 hours, I’ll likely be considerably less observant or, um, checking my phone.May 3, 2018 at 2:03 pm #231130
I’m similar. Even when streaming services dump an entire series, I find I naturally progress at around one or two episodes a week. I wouldn’t enjoy it if I sat down and binged the whole thing.May 3, 2018 at 4:10 pm #231132
I used to be the kind to binge-watch five or six episodes of a series a day (when I was young i had a VHS of Red Dwarf series with all of the non-special opening/closing credits except the first and last cut out, so would watch entire series in uninterrupted blocks regularly)
But now i watch one episode of whatever a day, sometimes two, MAYBE three if there’s some incredible cliffhanger that coaxes me into watching another.May 3, 2018 at 5:26 pm #231135
I do really struggle to watch arc-based shows at such a slow pace. My girlfriend and I got through Stranger Things 2 in two days, and that was only because we needed to sleep by the halfway point. Seasons 2 – 4 of Babylon 5 were similarly difficult to say no to as well, I was going through four or five of them a day.May 3, 2018 at 6:08 pm #231136
honestly for me it depends how interested I actually am in a show- if i’m really enjoying it and it really interests me, i’ll usually blast through the entire show in a couple of days. when it’s a show i’m not as interested in, it can take me weeks to finish.
i think the most enjoyable way to watch is when they’re new and so you get one episode every week. getting to the end of the week and realising there’ll be a brand new episode of a show i like airing always feels like a treat, plus if the episode ends on a cliffhanger you get the suspense of “ooh, what’s going to happen next?!”May 3, 2018 at 7:32 pm #231139
I agree with that sentiment bloodteller.
Recently I watched four seasons of Chuck in about a month and about midway through Series 4 things really were starting to blur so I took a break, lol.June 28, 2018 at 7:28 pm #233799
How is your rewatch going?June 28, 2018 at 10:31 pm #233801
Pete Part Three
I’m out of my comfort zone as I hit Out of Time the weekend before last. I decided to press on with VII, as I like *bits* of it. Rather foolishly though, I watched the Xtended Tikka to Ride. I don’t dislike Tikka, but Xtended is awful with terrible gaps the cast have left for laughter that’s not there. It’s so soulless and off.
Stoke was slightly better than I remembered it, and I actually rather like the opening sequence despite it being utterly daft. Although here’s something that’s weird.: Starbug follows the “coffin” carrying Ace’s lightbee to its “final resting place”…but…where is that? Is that another dimension? All the other Ace Rimmers are there, so they must have travelled there from their own dimensions, which means that Starbug has managed to conveniently find a gateway to an alternate dimension in deep space. It’s a bit weird how the episode never explains this. I hate the way VII barely ever mentioned that they’re supposed to be tracking down Red Dwarf, and yet they take all these odd detours (the one in Nanarchy is far worse, mind).
And it’s also weird how we do alternate dimensions again in the very next episode.
Ouroborus Xtended last weekend and I started to think I should have left VII alone. I can’t think of anything good about this episode. The sequence in the dimensionial walkway always sticks out to me as being particularly horrendous. The effect looks crap,the staging of it is rubbish, and the alternate crew just stand there like lemons. I don’t normally mind Chloe, but I think she’s shit in this episode and the flashback with her and Lister talking about their relationship is just…wrong. I think I moaned about this episode in BTL about 21 years ago so I’ll shut up now.June 28, 2018 at 10:41 pm #233802
It’s the dimension of Ace Rimmer’s first space adventure. And they went back into deep sleep to follow the coffin.June 29, 2018 at 12:33 am #233803
does that mean from Stoke onwards, everyone’s just been in a completely different universe?June 29, 2018 at 2:26 am #233804
They probably followed the wormhole back again afterwards.
But yes, that bit has always niggled at me as well. It’s glossed over in a very post-Rob era way “oh we just won’t even question it anyway look a nice theme tune”.June 29, 2018 at 2:28 am #233805
…to be clear, I was proposing that the graveyard is in our Dwarfers’ dimension, since that’s the universe that Ace’s first space adventure took place in. No dimension jumping required.June 29, 2018 at 6:17 am #233807
Pete Part Three
>No dimension jumping required.
Ok, then how did the other “coffins” get there?June 29, 2018 at 6:50 am #233808
Chris Veale did them in a computer.June 29, 2018 at 7:12 am #233809
No dimension jumping required by our crew. All the pods did it automatically.June 29, 2018 at 11:06 am #233811
The (fucking) coffins were BBC CGI, not Veale. Let’s assign blame where it’s due.June 29, 2018 at 12:00 pm #233812
I have always been curious how they were gonna pull off Red Dwarf exploding in Demons and Angels had they ever got round to remastering it since there were clearly limitations to what they could pull off with CGI, time on the budget. Makes me think of Starbug crashing in Bodyswap where they needed to cut away from the crash and all you see is some smoke.June 29, 2018 at 5:52 pm #233816
Pete Part Three
>All the pods did it automatically.
I still think this poses more questions than it answers. But we’ve likely already given it more thought than Doug did.June 29, 2018 at 6:29 pm #233818
Ace has dimension jumping technology so I’m not entirely sure what the problem is honestlyJune 29, 2018 at 6:30 pm #233819
Safe to assume they used that to jump there and back or the coffins have minaturised versions of the dj tech. They could open something like a time corridor from Doctor Who except it’s a dimension corridor. This is the kind of thing that if an explanation of it was written, it would be the first thing to be left on the cutting room floor because it’s unimportant/boringJune 29, 2018 at 6:59 pm #233821
Bargain Bin Holly
Ace has dimension jumping technology so I’m not entirely sure what the problem is honestly
This.June 29, 2018 at 8:13 pm #233822
Does the rewatch change anything? Does it make you like the earlier series more or hate the whole franchise a bit? Have you changed your opinion on any of the first six series?June 30, 2018 at 6:28 am #233839
Pete Part Three
>Ace has dimension jumping technology so I’m not entirely sure what the problem is honestly
Ace #1 wants to be laid to rest in “our” Dimension, despite only spending a few hours there (odd, but OK). Despite the fact that “there’s no going back” to his original dimension, it’s easy enough to find a way back to our dimension (hmm). He finds another Rimmer to take on the mantle of Ace #2, and then dies. And then, what are we saying? Ace #1 wants to be laid to rest in a part of our dimension that’s two hundred years away from where he met the crew in Dimension Jump. (Why?) And Ace#2 either finds a way to materialise in our dimension far away from our Rimmer and drop off the coffin or…
>the coffins have minaturised versions of the dj tech.
If the dj tech is now ubiquitous enough to be used in coffins, it poses the question as to why the Starbug crew are happy to trawl around deep space with no Red Dwarf, when they could quite easily jump to another dimension themselves.June 30, 2018 at 7:15 am #233841
Pete Part Three
>Does the rewatch change anything? Does it make you like the earlier series more or hate the whole franchise a bit? Have you changed your opinion on any of the first six series?
I wish I could say “yes” to any of these, but not a huge change in my opinions on these.
I do vaguely recall a time about 24 years ago, when I liked Tongue Tied. Now it’s just fucking awful. I love Doug talking about how Danny took over that and “ruined it”, but I’m clueless as to what the original point of it was. As a comedy song, it’s crap. And the performance is just Chris and Craig mugging at the camera and Danny showing off. WHY IS THIS HERE?
I think I enjoyed Series IV slightly more (not that I’ve ever disliked it, just preferred II, III, V), but that may be in light of XI and XII.
I’ve always been a bit uneasy about Series VI and this rewatch hammered home how little I like the staging of that series. So much of it is the guys sat down in Starbug’s cockpit and looking straight ahead. After a few episodes of long scenes of this, it stops being visually interesting and when you couple that with a lot of interchangeable dialogue (directives, Cat’s “deader than”s etc) , the show does seem to fall into, well, not a rut…but an all-too-comfortable groove.
When we get gags that aren’t intrinsic to the plot, and are just interchangeable “gags” that could be moved from script to script, they have to be really good ones or they’re exposed for what they are.
Rimmerworld, I’ve liked more than most previously, but it really hit home how weak the second half of that episode is. The crew land on Rimmerworld, they experience the planet’s culture in 2 scenes, and then they escape. They bung a good teleporter gag and a load of misdirection about Lister’s fate to distract you, but this is one of the weakest endings you’ll find in Grant Naylor Dwarf. It’s not telling us anything new about Rimmer, it’s just Terrorform-lite. There’s probably a version of this episode where Rimmer overthrows the regime, or argues his case as being the “One true Rimmer”, but the show can’t be arsed.
(Oh, and Red Dwarf isn’t even mentioned in Rimmerworld, which brings home how quickly the narrative of finding Red Dwarf seems neglected after Psirens and Legon).June 30, 2018 at 10:45 am #233845
VI generally has that problem. There’s a bit of ok character stuff at the start of Psirens, but other than thinking he’s great at guitar, having two Listers doesn’t tell us anything new about him. Polymorph explored the four characters by removing some of their fundamental emotions; Emohawk just brought back two alternate versions of the characters without doing much new with them.
If DNA was a VI episode, it’d skip most of the Kryten scenes and focus the second half of the episode on the Curry Monster. Only Out of Time really feels like a properly character-driven episode.
I still think it’s a funny, well made series with plenty of good ideas, but it definitely lacks the depth of the earlier ones for me which is why it’s my least favourite of the Rob era.July 3, 2018 at 8:22 pm #233966
I don’t like VI much either. Okay jokes that are very much “gags”. Looks sleek. But empty and insubstantial. Apart from Out Of Time, as International Debris says.
I do, however, give Tongue Tied a pass. Purely because I’ve had shit and weird dreams like that. As noted in a Red Dwarf dreams thread somewhere. I always thought it was purposefully odd, which I generally enjoy, rather than trying to be actual entertainment. If I’ve misinterpreted that, I’m pleased, because it doesn’t strike me as out of place. Unlike the shitty Rimmer songs in VII and Officer Rimmer.July 4, 2018 at 4:22 pm #234010
Pete Part Three
Ha, I watched Blue at the weekend and actually warmed slightly to the Rimmer munchkin song, because I think it succeeds a bit better than Tongue Tied at the “funny” lyrics.July 4, 2018 at 5:51 pm #234017
Taken in isolation, yeah it’s funnier. Zimmer is a funny word isn’t it!
Congratulations on the rewatch. Are you still undecided about watching VIII?July 5, 2018 at 8:26 pm #234057
i do think VIII benefits from a rewatch. i used to think Pete wasn’t very good because the general opinion on it is that it’s utter shite. but then i actually sat down and rewatched the whole of VIII and enjoyed Pete quite a lot-i even liked the basketball scene, which i used to dislike because i didn’t think it worked well in the context of the show. isn’t the main sport in Red Dwarf ZERO-G Football? why play basketball?
i don’t mind the basketball scene so much now though as it’s quite funny (“you were supposed to be picking up Rice!” “i did, we meet for drinks on Thursday.”), the song is decent and there’s actually some quite impressive basketball shots in it-how did Craig manage to head that shot into the basket, i’ll never knowJuly 5, 2018 at 8:29 pm #234058
VIII is basically the Trail Of The Pink Panther of Red Dwarf but without the ghost of Peter Sellers leaving a bitter aftertaste on it I suppose. there’s a very split opinion on itJuly 5, 2018 at 9:06 pm #234060
I enjoy VIII less with each watch, to the extent that last time I watched it it actually made me depressed.July 5, 2018 at 9:16 pm #234061
Pete Part Three
I’m struggling with VII a little. I mean, I detest pretty much everything about Ouroborus, but its awfulness makes it slightly more interesting to watch than Duct Soup, which I just found to be interminably dull and seemed to last for about 2 hours. By the time Lister was running Kochanski a bath, I was already checking Twitter.
I don’t think “dull” is a charge that can be levelled at VIII…(“shit”, sure…but not “dull”) so I may see how I feel at the end of snoozeathon Nanarchy.
Beyond a Joke next, which I don’t actually hate as much as most people seem to. Mind you, I haven’t watched it in about 15 years, so I may put some extra effort in this time.July 5, 2018 at 9:52 pm #234062
Bargain Bin Holly
My feelings on VIII change everytime I watch it.
Cassandra has always and probably will always be my least favorite of VIII, while Pete Part I and II I actually enjoyed during my Red Dwarf binge that came after my 3-or-so year hiatus of not watching the show. Only the Good’s depressingly hopeless ending was actually a breather for me during the binge but only because I knew there was more Red Dwarf afterwards.July 6, 2018 at 1:06 am #234089
Having rewatched them the other day, “Duct Soup” and “Blue” kind of feel like Red Dwarf VII doing II and I style episodes. With “Duct”, the plot kicks in around the halfway mark and involves some new locations, kind of like a series II episode. With “Blue”, it’s almost all character stuff; slower-paced, scenes that are only one or two lines of dialogue long… it has an old Dwarf feel to it with that VII aesthetic.
I still don’t hate VII, mind. VIII can get in the sea, but VII has a lot more going for it than I think people give credit for.July 6, 2018 at 1:52 am #234092
Bargain Bin Holly
VII was pretty good in places; I quite liked Kochanski as a new crewmember and I liked Kryten’s paranoia and how he’s like the new antagonist now that Rimmer is gone, that’s pretty funny to me.
I always thought Ace Rimmer looked his best in Stoke Me a Clipper compared to Dimension Jump and Emohawk (btw in the final episode he looks fine, granted, but in publicity shots for that episode the wig looks like shit), the opening where we actually see Ace on a mission was quite good. Really, Ace came across as somebody that was a genuine cool guy in that episode and not a giant douche like before, least to me anyway and its given a good excuse in the episode why that is.
The Simulant in Beyond a Joke has always been my favorite Simulant antagonist, I liked a lot of the more action-orientated elements in this series really. The set designs were great, the CGI not so much but given the time its excusable and doesn’t look too bad on repeat viewings (the Red Dwarf ship in VIII tho, that was just horrendous in design and practice; looks like a giant cock).July 6, 2018 at 2:17 am #234093
if your cock looks like the Red Dwarf ship you might want to get it looked atJuly 6, 2018 at 2:19 am #234094
mind you when i was on a nude beach once i saw a bloke who’s cock looked like the Low StrawberryJuly 6, 2018 at 2:26 am #234095
Bargain Bin Holly
It had the worms coming out and everything?
Was it like that one scene in the Inbetweeners 2 where everybody is fleeing from Will cause he has shit on his faceJuly 6, 2018 at 1:17 pm #234116
Having rewatched them the other day, “Duct Soup” and “Blue” kind of feel like Red Dwarf VII doing II and I style episodes.
Yeah, the series in general is a retreat from the monster-of-the-week stuff of what came before it. Blue is by far my favourite episode of VII for that reason. Duct Soup I don’t hate as much as most around here do – I like the slow, character-based, confined location element of it – but it suffers from typical VII stuff of poor jokes and bad characterisation.July 7, 2018 at 10:55 am #234185
to me knowing “retard” as an insult didn’t come about until I heard US culture in the late 90s like South Park, Eminem etc. At the time, I just thought it was the kind of old fashioned, over-formal medical term Kryten would use to insult people, like “anal retentive” which I’d never heard of either before seeing it in an RD novel.
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