Mac McTorchwood

[cwickham]

Mac McDonald is in this: https://www.bigfinish.com/releases/v/torchwood-believe-1814

(Which I find quite interesting given he gave the… definite impression he was not a fan of John Barrowman at DJ 2015)

[GlenTokyo]

Might be a fan of money though.

[Lily]

Huh, it never occured to me the audio book things would be voiced by the actual actors. I always figured they were people doing dodgy impressions. Guess that explains the price.

[Hamish]

Big Finish are radio dramas, not audio books.

Is it just me, or has this forum just become a massive audition of “What’s My Fruit?”.

[Dave]

In fairness, it’s not the first time I’ve seen someone be a bit confused about exactly what Big Finish do. It’s understandable – some of their stuff is directly adapted from novels, and they also do books.

If you’re not familiar with them it’s an easy (and fairly minor) mistake to make.

[Ben Saunders]

They use impersonators for anything featuring the First, Second or Third Doctor Whos, for obvious reasons, and used a Tom Baker impersonator at least once, but pretty much from day one they had at least the actual actors for Doctors 5-8 and a selection of companions. They also sometimes get people who have been in the shows before to play different, new characters. It all seems very chummy.

There is a set of Ninth Doctor audios featuring Nicholas Briggs doing a dodgy Christopher “I fucking hate Dr Who” Eccleston impression, which I’ve heard many (bad) things about.

[Warbodog]

Do Big Finish still have people like Robert Shearman in the early years, writing weird, creepy, experimental stories that take full advantage of the audio medium? Or are they all about trying to mimic each TV era as closely as possible for fans who can’t get enough of that?

There are so many releases, but I keep seeing the same uninspiring writers’ names who haven’t impressed me before.

[Plastic Percy]

I do reccomend their War Master: Only the Good boxset. They got Sir Derek Jacobi back to play the War Master and we get to see what he was up to during the Time War. It’s a nice companion piece to the four War Doctor boxsets they did with Sir John Hurt before he passed away.

[Ben Saunders]

If I remember right Rob Shearman has horrific writer’s block but has been trying to write another Big Finish for ages. I’m not overly familiar with the modern range myself, but from what I’ve heard, there are still some fantastic experimental stories being written, but they are much fewer and farther between, with stuff like the Fourth Doctor’s Adventures being far too derivative and an attempt at pretending its the 70s again rather than making something good.

Again I don’t have personal experience of this, but I’ve been told that the Companion Chronicles range has a very high average quality.

[Hamish]

> If you’re not familiar with them it’s an easy (and fairly minor) mistake to make.

To be clear, I was not having a go at Lily, more referencing the pedantry going on in another thread.

[cwickham]

It’s true that BF isn’t quite as experimental as they used to be – they’ve said that due to the return of the TV series, they wouldn’t be allowed to do some of the stuff they put out in their early years today. With the exception of the Seven/Mel/Ace stories the monthly range has been quite good this last year, though.

[International Debris]

The problem with Big Finish, so to speak, is that there are just too bloody many of them. It’s almost impossible to know where to even dip your toe in. I’ve considered going through them chronologically, but it’d take years. My plan is, once I’ve finished all the books, to go with stuff that’s different from the TV versions, so I’m definitely going to have a run through all the Eighth Doctor stuff – will just be good to experience some actual McGann in action – and maybe the Time War stuff, possibly some Gallifrey and UNIT.
Then maybe I’ll start looking for the more acclaimed and unusual Monthly Range stuff.

And yes, I’ve heard Briggs’s Eccleston impression and it’s laughable.

[Warbodog]

Their Doctor Who Unbound “what if?” range is about as different as it gets, I liked it. You don’t have to worry about where those fit in your chronology.

The McGann range(s) is the only one I ever committed to, until it became all about ‘epic’ boxsets and I lost interest. If his eras are a reflection on Big Finish as a whole, they were clearly a lot freer in the wilderness years, with creative and sometimes crazy stories. But when the new TV series came out and McGann got his own range, it mainly fell back on one-time aliens from the 70s showing up for another round and different takes on the same old ideas. It reminds me of the contractual creative castration that made 90s Star Trek novels so bland.

It’s a real shame Tom Baker wasn’t up for audios in the early years. I’m not really interested in listening to The Return of the Robots of Death Again or whatever they’ve got him doing now.

[cwickham]

There are some quite good Tom audios: The Foe from the Future for Hinchcliffe-style horror, The Auntie Matter for Williams-style fun, The Paradox Planet/Legacy of Death and The Trouble with Drax for something more Douglas Adams-esque, The Skin of the Sleek/The Thief Who Stole Time for something more Season 18.

[International Debris]

Interesting. Any other recommendations gratefully received!

[Captain No-Name]

Seeing as you’ve asked for recommendations, International Debris, I’ll chip in…

Dalek Empire Series 1 and 2.

Two series of 4 CDs, this is a Doctor-less space opera telling a love story against the backdrop of a vast intergalactic Dalek war. Crucially, this was released before the TV series was revived in 2005, and so it takes its cue from 20th century material. This feels a bit like Nick Briggs doing a modern 15-rated movie-budget version of those wonderful brightly-coloured pulpy 1960s annuals and comic strips, where the Doctor didn’t feature and there were Space Agents and a Dalek Emperor, and the Second World War always seemed a recent influence. The kind of thing the classic TV series hinted at but never had the budget to depict. By comparison, Moffat-era TV Daleks often seem like generic shooty robot monsters who turn up then get blown up. But in Dalek Empire the Daleks are more like heartless metal Nazis, psychologically torturing people, conducting experiments, gunning down labour forces once they are finished with… utter bastards.

They did a third series (which was 6 CDs long, and starred David Tennant before he was cast as the Doctor) but it was only tangentially connected to the original two series, and I didn’t warm to it as much. I never heard the fourth and final series, but I understand it was a 4-CD story with some new characters, which was set within the timeframe of Series One, and so was inessential.

In other words, all you really need is Series 1 and 2.

NOTE: Series 1 & 2 are available on Spotify. Just search “Dalek Empire” and you can listen to all 8 CDs for free (albeit interrupted with occasional annoying adverts, unless you have Premium)

[Ben Saunders]

Spare Parts, Jubilee, Doctor Who and the Pirates, Psychodrome, Whispers of Terror and City of Spires/Wreck of the Titan/Legend of the Cybermen are all good.

Creatures of Beauty, Sirens of Time and Storm Warning I’ve heard but don’t remember well enough to say if they’re any good or not.

Energy of the Daleks is a bit shit.

If you want to be made to feel uncomfortable/listen to something harrowing Spare Parts and Creatures of Beauty have that quality. Jubilee and Legend are just very good, while Pirates and Psychodrome have some nice emotional stuff.

[Ben Saunders]

I must object to blaming the Moffat era for the ruination of the Daleks, as they’d outstayed their welcome by series 3 of New Who and the only interesting Dalek episodes after that were Into the Dalek and the Series 9 opener which was a Davros episode. He also cleverly avoided a Dalek episode in Series 6 because I think just about the whole of Britain was sick of them by that point.

To be fair, The Dalek Invasion of Earth, Planet of the Daleks, Destiny of the Daleks, and arguably Resurrection/Revelation aren’t very good, either. (I know hating Revelation is controversial – I like Saward’s other stuff but the DJ in that episode is enough to put me off it)

They were already stretching credibility by the Series One finale with RTD’s insane boner for killing off every last dalek ever, only for a million more of them to suddenly turn up in the next episode.

[Captain No-Name]

I seem to have triggered you Ben, I apologise.

Just to be clear, I absolutely do not blame Moffat for the “Ruination of the Daleks” (incidentally, maybe Ben Aaronovitch should have gone for that instead of “Remembrance”…) and my comment does not say that I do.

What I in fact said was “Moffat-era TV Daleks often seem like generic shooty robot monsters who turn up then get blown up,” and in my defence I present to you Series 10, where this perfectly describes the sum total of their contribution.

My actual viewpoint is that most 21st century Dalek stories have missed the mark for me. One thing I will say is that you should never use Daleks for cameos only. I hate them being wheeled on in the background for things like series finales.

Incidentally, I can never agree with people who say the Daleks have outstayed their welcome. I had this conversation with someone recently, who said to me “can’t we go a year without a Dalek story for once” and I pointed out that the last Dalek story was back in 2015.

I wouldn’t mind a series completely sans-Daleks. But what I actually WANT is a stonkingly good Dalek story. And I humbly suggest that the Moffat era did not really feature one.

[flanl3]

I seem to have triggered you Ben, I apologise.

I don’t think that’s the term you’re looking for.

[Ben Saunders]

It certainly felt to me by the time of series 3 that they had outstayed their welcome, but that was more down to the fact that they were wiped out, only to come back again, only to be wiped out, only to come back again, etc etc. It stretched credibility beyond the realms of anything remotely believable. If they had just appeared in decent stories ten years in a row I would not complain.

The Cybermen were turned into generic shooty robots in series 2 as well, which is a huge shame.

There is a rumour that they are contractually obliged to use the Daleks every year, else they’d lose the license to them via the Terry Nation estate. Moffat has flatly denied this, even though the pattern does fit. No Dalek episode in 2011, but a cameo in The Wedding of River Song, a cameo in Waters of Mars, and the weird Bill announcement during that football thing could be interpreted as the mandatory Dalek appearance for that year. (I don’t believe the rumour, I just know it exists and if it turned out to be true I wouldn’t bat an eyelid)

I much prefer them having cameos over us ever getting something as dire as Daleks In Manhattan again, but yes I would -much- prefer they just write them a good episode. I’ve liked their cameo appearances thus far, except maybe at the end of the Pandorica episode – a glorious episode, and I can see why they were included, but Daleks wouldn’t form an alliance with anybody.

[Ben Saunders]

They did stop producing Dalek episodes after Season 4 of Classic Who, not having them appear until Season 9, with a cameo in The War Games, for the same reason many people think they should be rested today – overuse. I think Chibnall could maybe avoid using them in his first series, honestly, but then there’s the idea that fighting the Daleks legitimises the new Doctor in the eyes of the audience, so who nose.

[Captain No-Name]

I agree RTD’s “all the daleks have been erased from time” idea wrote itself into a bit of a corner. I feel like they should have done a story (around about Series 3) that properly addressed this for good, but instead it’s just been kind of forgotten about, and the Daleks are found throughout time and space again now, just like in the classic series. Which is for the best really.

I’d say the Cybermen have been a bit naff since the 1970s really. I’ve got an affection for Earthshock, I admit, but few of their appearances seem to do justice to the idea of them. The Series 10 finale was a joy to me, because I thought the cybermen were – at last – deployed excellently. (Your Big Finish recommendation of Spare Parts is good for the same reason).

Like yourself I am suspicious of the rumour of contractual obligation. The pattern is there, as you say, but that’s the case with any good conspiracy theory; doesn’t make it true.

I’d rather not choose between cameos or naff Dalek stories. That’s a bit Lose-Lose. Even when I enjoy a story that contains a Dalek cameo (Twice Upon A Time, for example) I kind of wish the Dalek cameo wasn’t in it.

[Captain No-Name]

You’ve got to remember there were an enormous amount of Dalek episodes in the 1960s. Hartnell alone had about 32 Dalek episodes in less than 3 years. That’s insane. Add to that the two Cushing movies, and about 13 Troughton Dalek episodes, and you can see why a 1960s viewer might suffer Dalek fatigue.

By comparison, we’ve had a mere couple of Dalek cameos since a 2-part Dalek story back in 2015. Hardly an excess. It doesn’t compare to the 1960s Dalek overdose.

It would have been reasonable of the 1960s production team to want to give the Daleks a rest, but I understand that actually it was more a case of Terry Nation withdrawing permission because he was trying to launch a big Dalek TV series on American television, and that’s why Evil of the Daleks appears to depict the “final end” of the Daleks. As we all know, nothing came of that. and the Daleks eventually returned to Doctor Who in the 1970s.

If I was in Chibnall’s shoes I’d be contemplating a Dalek-less first series. And maybe he is, who know? But I think most viewers would agree Jodie really ought to face them eventually.

[Ben Saunders]

I don’t think comparing a serial of classic Who to an episode of modern Who is quite like for like – Harntell had three Dalek stories, which by the conventions of the era were split up into multiple 25-minute parts. But yes, they did appear every single year – twice in one year I think – and were on people’s screens quite a heck of a lot. It doesn’t help that Dalek Invasion and (depending on who you ask – I liked it) The Chase were a bit naff and the latter made light of the Daleks rather than presenting them as a menacing force.

The Cushing movie of Dalek Invasion is much better, honestly, and I have a soft spot for Dr. Who and the Daleks.

I also have a soft spot for Revenge of the Cybermen, even though it isn’t very good, and Attack of the Cybermen, even though that definitely isn’t any good at all, but yes the Cybermen have been pretty naff since 1969. The Series 10 finale was a terrific Cybermen story, and really brought the horror element back to them, and also managed to redeem John Simm’s Master who was a bit, uh, off, in The End of Time.

If Jodie’s first serial is a Dalek story and also incredible I’ll be very happy and bite my tongue, but if she has a Dalek story early on which is naff I’ll probably be calling for them to fuck off once more.

[Ben Saunders]

The Cybermen were also stalwarts of Troughton’s era, appearing a whopping five times in three series (plus one cameo!), but the difference there is all their stories were quite good.

[International Debris]

I’m happy that we’ve had a couple of Dalek-free years (although one was pretty much a Who-free year, so I’m not sure it really counts). And happy that such a big deal wasn’t made of it this time like it was for series 6 (A year without Daleks! Crikey!)

I quite like the fact that the ’80s Doctors only met them once each originally. The Daleks are iconic, and thus their appearances really should feel like that. RTD brought them out again and again, and it definitely got tiresome. It felt like Moffat was trying to do something different with them (new Daleks, Dalek asylum, inside a Dalek, Davros’s childhood), but none of them entirely hit the mark for me. If Jodie meets them a couple of times with strong stories it’ll be great though.

And yeah, the Capaldi two-parter is the only time I’ve really enjoyed the Cybermen since The Invasion. Earthshock and a couple of other Moffat ones have had decent stories, but even then the Cybermen in them were crap and would have been better if they were other monsters.

[Captain No-Name]

I understand why people grumble about The Chase. Although, to be clear, I think those people are misery guts. The Chase is a ripping good fun piece of 1960s comic book pulp adventure, and I like it.

But what’s naff about The Dalek Invasion of Earth? As a piece of doom-laden post-apocalyptic 1960s TV sci-fi for all the family, it certainly does the job for me.

[Ben Saunders]

I bloody love The Chase – if you go into it expecting a serious story you’ll be disappointed, but if you know what you’re in for it is rollicking good fun.

Dalek Invasion is doom-laden, yes, but it’s also baggy and overlong and the action sequences are appalling. The first attack on the Dalek saucer is an embarrassment, somehow worse than the attack on their control room in The Daleks. I know I know, it was the 60s, there was no time and no money, but it really did feel rather poorly done. I remember thinking “fucking hell this is tedious” around episode four, although the final episode is quite good. Susan’s departure is obviously a real tear-jerker, and that music is phenomenal, and I like the film stuff of Barbara running around and the Daleks in London.

Perhaps it’s a consequence of having seen the obviously much bigger budget and more visually impressive movie version several times before and only having watched the TV version a couple of days ago, but it really missed the mark for me. And those voices are awful!

The Daleks is rather good but could do with one episode’s worth of runtime being sucked out of it, and The Chase is basically perfect.

[Captain No-Name]

Fair enough, Ben.

Interestingly, I also saw the 2150AD movie long before I saw the original (I imagine this is true of many Who fans) but certain things in the TV serial (especially the “28 Days Later running round London landmarks at dawn” business) really worked for me, meaning I didn’t find it the least bit disappointing after its big screen cousin.

International Debris – the Series 10 finale and The Invasion are my two favourite Cyberman stories. I have enjoyed some of what went between, but those two are great.

[Plastic Percy]

The BBC’s contract with the Terry Nation estate means they have to use the Daleks in some capacity at least once a year in order for them to retain usage. I remember very early on in production of the new series that it looked like they wouldn’t be allowed to the use the Daleks. The Nation estate are almost Dalek like in their protection of their creators most profitable… er… successful creation.

Russell T. Davies backup plan if they didn’t get them was that the Time Lords would have gone to war with the Toclafane, and Robert Shearman wrote a draft of what would later become the episode Dalek, entitled Museum Piece, where the Doctor would find a Toclafane survivor locked away in a vault.

[Ben Saunders]

That wouldn’t have had anywhere near the impact that Dalek did. Should have gone with the Voord.

[International Debris]

Or the Quarks.

[Captain No-Name]

Plastic Percy – I’d be really interested to know if you have a source for the BBC having a contractual obligation to include the Daleks once per series…

I’ve remained sceptical of this rumour because, while I’ve heard it in lots of unofficial places like this, I’ve never heard it from an authoritative source. Plus I don’t think it sounds credible.

I mean, the BBC’s contracts all seem very short term. For example, Ecclestone was only contracted for a single series – by the time they decided to commission a second, he’d already got cold feet. Similarly Matt Smith signed on a year-by-year basis which is why Moffat didn’t even know whether the 11th Doctor would feature in Day of the Doctor when he sat down to write the early drafts. According to some accounts, the BBC expected Doctor Who to wrap up when RTD stepped down, and there wasn’t magnanimous confidence in a Moffat-led Series 5. All of which points at the BBC doing things one year at a time. I mean, Moffat seemingly did Series 10 because if he didn’t then nobody else would!

So, given all this lack of long-term planning, I’d be extremely surprised if they’d brokered some kind of perpetual “the Daleks must feature in every single Doctor Who series from now on, even if it’s just a cameo” type deal. I strongly suspect the Dalek rights situation gets contractually renewed at regular intervals, perhaps annually. And I doubt it’s as dictatorial as the rumour suggests.

I think the Nation estate had a unique bargaining position in 2005, which they’ve since lost. The Daleks were crucial for the relaunch. But not nowadays. If the Nation estate decided to be arses, the BBC would do quite happily without the Daleks for a few years.

[Ben Saunders]

I know for certain Moffat has ridiculed the idea, saying they’re just good monsters they happen to want to use a lot, but then of course he would say that, wouldn’t he? I could probably find the source if I could be bothered.

Also the Voord are another Terry creation, hence why I went for them. I wonder how much they’d cost to use.

[Ben Saunders]

From more behind-the-scenes rumours, I’ve heard that the short-term nature of BBC contracts actually caused a heck of a lot of problems for Moffat, and is one of the reasons Time of the Doctor had every single plot point imaginable wrapped up within it – Moffat intended for there to be another Matt Smith series, but various BBC machinations prevented this. Also yes, he only did Series 10 because Chibnall was busy and if he didn’t do it, there would have been no Doctor Who at all.

The BBC thought RTD/Tennant were as their golden geese. Also, Moffat had some initial plans for a Tennant-led Series Five.

Nation’s agent was very cunning to demand the rights to the Daleks remain with him.

[Ben Saunders]

Moreover it wasn’t necessarily intended for their to be another -year- of Matt Smith, just another -series-, as Moffat planned the series 6 mid-series split, but had the series 7 one thrust upon him after deciding that the experiment hadn’t worked. Without a series 7 split, we could have had at least six and possibly twelve more Smith episodes, tying up his arcs in a slightly more… cohesive way.

[Captain No-Name]

I think it will be quite interesting when, in a few years, the dust settles and people start to feel they can talk more openly about what on Earth was going on behind the scenes. The Moffat era has been rife with rumour, and some developments (like David Yates’s weird confidence that he was going to do a Doctor Who movie; or Moffat’s declaration that there would be more Doctor Who than ever in 2013… which turned out to mean less episodes than normal) have just seemed odd.

[International Debris]

as Moffat planned the series 6 mid-series split

Really? I thought it was the BBC, and he realised that A Good Man Goes to War would simply make a good mid-season cliffhanger.

Also, in terms of year-by-year, I’m pretty sure Moffat spoke a couple of times about the BBC having a five-year plan for the show.

[Ben Saunders]

I’m almost 100% certain Moff asked for the 6-split, realised it didn’t work, then got the 7-split thrust upon him, although if anyone has any contradictory information I’ll be glad to hear it.

I’m waiting for The Life And Scandalous Times of Steven Moffat to come out in 2040 to put this all to rest.

[International Debris]

starting at 8:25
“Actually I think I can now say series six being split wasn’t me at all, it was BBC One who wanted a split season”.

[Ben Saunders]

Oooooohhhh that’s recent lol. Cool

[Captain No-Name]

Ooh, I’ve never seen that Moffat interview. I’ll sit down and watch it later. Cheers, International Debris.

I’m pretty sure Moffat spoke a couple of times about the BBC having a five-year plan for the show.

Crikey, I must’ve missed him saying that. I’ve always had the impression that they rarely think more than one series ahead.

I’m waiting for The Life And Scandalous Times of Steven Moffat to come out in 2040 to put this all to rest.

That JNT book was excellent, and I thoroughly recommend it if you haven’t already read it.

[Dave]

While we’re voicing our own personal conspiracy theories, mine is that Jenna Coleman wasn’t ever intended to be cast as the new companion, but got the job after she demonstrated such good chemistry with Smith in Asylum Of The Daleks. Which explains why Clara ended up having such a convoluted backstory, and also why Gaiman was under the impression that the companion in Nightmare In Silver was meant to be a Victorian nanny (as Clara was originally meant to just be the character from the Christmas special).

I haven’t ever seen anything to corroborate it other than that circumstantial evidence, but it would explain why she ended up having such a weird and complicated backstory to explain her being both the character from that Christmas special AND the girl from Asylum.

[Ben Saunders]

BBC have “a five year plan” for the Chibnall era, but I think that basically means “it’s definitely not going to be cancelled for 5 years unless only twelve people tune in for series eleven.” We certainly aren’t privy to what they actually plan.

I’ll be getting the JNT book soon, I should think.

Series 7B was a disaster for a number of reasons, but fucking hell was having (a) Clara in Asylum of the Daleks an incredible twist.

[Ben Saunders]

And that was Series 7A, my bad

[cwickham]

Actually I think Clara was written into Asylum *after* she was cast – Jenna definitely auditioned to be the new companion.

After that it was the case that Oswin dies in Asylum, then the Doc meets the Victorian version in “The Snowmen” and that’s the version that becomes the companion. Then for whatever reason Moffat decided to have the Victorian one die as well so the Clara that ultimately became the companion was a contemporary version. Gaiman had already started work on “Nightmare in Silver” at the time, which is why his early draft featured the Victorian one.

[Ben Saunders]

I’ve heard (more rumours!) that the BBC are/were weary of companions who aren’t from contemporary Britain. Rose, Martha, Donna, Amy, Rory, Clara, all from contemporary Britain. We Nardole in Series 10, but he was paired with Bill, who was from contemporary Britain. And since if Moff didn’t make S10 no-one would, maybe he could put his foot down a little. The contemporary companion rumour is one I’m more likely to believe.

[Seb Patrick]

>Nation’s agent was very cunning to demand the rights to the Daleks remain with him.

Mmm, not really, it’s standard practice for all characters created by freelance writers to have the rights owned by that writer – was always thus on the old show and continues to be so on the revived one. They have to get agreement from and pay them any time they want to use any of them. It’s just that the Nation Estate/Tim Hancock are the ones more likely to kick up a fuss, as they have the bargaining power of the fact that it’s the Daleks.

RTD’s agent also represents a lot of the old writers’ estates, and she’s much nicer about it.

[Ben Saunders]

Tbf I thought it was standard practice as well but just the other day I read somebody else say Nation was cunning to do so and believed them.

I’ve noticed whenever they use the Ood they have to say “Ood created by Russell T. Davies”, and I think they have to credit Peddler/Davis for the Cybermen. I wonder if they had to credit the creator of the Macra for Gridlock.

[Author]

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