Mac McTorchwood

[Lily]

>Is this RTD-bashing … Is the Moffat-love …

I think for me, I get the feeling that a lot of people in general look back to RTD as being flawless and brilliant in bringing back Who. If anything the fandom in general seems to bash Moffat more. This thread, if anything has been about bashing them both equally.

RTD had some bloody awful episodes, which were cringy with ott wacky humour. Moffat had some bloody awful series long plots, which were over-clever, over-complicated and failed to deliver. The thing I find more disappointing is that Moffat era seems to have had more episodes that have been entirely forgettable. I’ve had to go look up some of the references in this thread as I couldn’t remember the eps. Has Moffat done more series than RTD?

However, comparing the bad points of the showrunners doesn’t deny that both absolutely had wonderful highs as well. It’s just more fun to pick at the scabby bits. :)

[Ben Saunders]

Moffat has done one more series and a couple extra specials compared to RTD, and was showrunner for seven years (holy shit really?!?!) to RTD’s five.

[Lily]

Thank you.

It’ll be interesting to see what Chibnall brings. Looking up his history, his Who/Torchwood episodes have been entirely fogettable middle of the series stuff.

Excluding Countrycide that is, that shit gave me nightmares for weeks.

[International Debris]

Is this RTD-bashing down to the fact that Davies recognised the programme has always been a family show and, therefore, drew on cultural elements that cross-generational elements in the audience could recognise? That doesn’t automatically mean dumbing-down.

Is the Moffat-love down to the fact that he made it all dark and sexy? That’s adolescent thinking, not necessarily a formula for good drama.

Well, I’ve said myself that I can see exactly why RTD was successful and why his version was kind of necessary for its time, but it’s just not my kind of show. Moffat’s era had a lot of problems – some ridiculous ‘complex’ plotting that went absolutely nowhere, especially in Capaldi’s era – but overall I find his series’ worst stuff as failed experiments rather than RTD’s worst, which are just really cringeworthy, campy nonsense. Moffat himself occasionally went in that direction – riding up the Shard on a motorbike – and I hated it just as much then too, but it was rare in comparison.

There’s also the sense of scale. RTD’s era was full of alien invasions of London or Cardiff, people dying everywhere, massive explosions. Moffat’s Earth stories, in comparison, tended to be in more rural, cut-off environments. Rose, Martha and Donna were from London. As soon as series 5 started and the companion was in a small village, it just took me straight back to Pertwee/UNIT stuff, The Stones of Blood, Image of the Fendahl, The Curse of Fenric, the slightly folk-horror esque atmosphere. The Journey Home and The Big Bang are both ‘end of the universe’ stories, but RTD did it with billions of Daleks flying everywhere, every companion imaginable, and two 10th Doctors. Moffat did it with the Doctor, his companions, and a rusty Dalek. I just feel like the Moffat era managed – or at least attempted – interesting stories without the unnecessary bombast that RTD often gave the show.

So the RTD-bashing is partially down to taste, and partially down to a certain style which I think cheapens the show. And the Moffat-love is because his era took more risks and became an inherently more interesting show because of it.

It’ll be interesting to see what Chibnall brings. Looking up his history, his Who/Torchwood episodes have been entirely fogettable middle of the series stuff.

He did write the ‘female alien shags men to death’ and ‘female Cyberman has boobs and heels’ stories of Torchwood, which has me worried for his handling of the first female Doctor, although I’ve been informed he’s written much better female parts in Broadchurch.
I like his Silurian two-parter a lot, and The Power of Three is pretty good, although it does feel more like a RTD-era story than a Moffat one in many ways. But yes, as head writer of the first two series of Torchwood, and pap like 42, his Who history isn’t exactly glowing.

[Captain No-Name]

Moffat has done one more series and a couple extra specials compared to RTD, and was showrunner for seven years (holy shit really?!?!) to RTD’s five.

I’m just going to pedantically point out that Moffat did 6 series to Moffat’s 4. Davies did a bonus year of specials in 2009, but Moffat did an extra Christmas special plus the 50th anniversary.

Quite when the showrunner’s job begins and ends is very difficult to pin down, as Moffat seems to have been pointing out in every interview for the last thousand years, but at the very least Moffat did 8 years rather than 7 (Matt Smith debuted on the very first day of 2010, so Moffat would have started work in 2009; Capaldi bowed out towards the end of Dec 2017).

Apart from that, Ben’s maths was spot on.

The thing I find more disappointing is that Moffat era seems to have had more episodes that have been entirely forgettable.

This is a good point Lily. Something I’ve noticed is that I can always summon to mind the name of any given RTD episode. Or, if someone names one, I instantly know which story they are talking about. The only iffy title I find is “Planet of the Dead” which is actually about a double decker bus in a desert.

Moffat’s seasons on the other hand are jam packed with stories that I simply cannot remember the titles of. Sometimes people will say a story title (it’ll be something like “The Time of the Wedding of the Wife of the Doctor’s Husbands”) and I’ll have to scour my brain and/or consult Wikipedia.

That Davros 2-parter was cursed with two annoyingly unmemorable titles. And “The Bells of St John” was just taking the piss.

his Who history isn’t exactly glowing.

My default position whenever Doctor Who has a fresh start is to incline towards optimism. However my critical faculties keep pointing out to me that Chibnall’s contributions to Doctor Who thus far don’t really warrant optimism. So I just keep telling that part of my brain to shut up and stop being a spoil sport. I’m hoping Chibnall will surpass everyone’s expectations. It must be very different, writing a script, to being in charge.

I was very optimistic of Moffat after his excellent contributions 2005-2009, and his debut as showrunner (The Eleventh Hour) was brilliantly strong. But as Series 5 went on, my optimism waned, and I hated Series 6&7. I soon realised I preferred Moffat as a guest writer to being showrunner. It wasn’t until Series 10 that he helmed a series I really really liked.

So I can’t see why Chibnall shouldn’t go in the opposite trajectory in my affections, and turn out to be a way better showrunner than he is guest writer.

[Captain No-Name]

Moffat did 6 series to Moffat’s 4

* RTD’s 4.

Bollocks.

[Dave]

RTD’s four bollocks?

[Ben Saunders]

Moff says he’s shit at coming up with titles and his son came up with a couple of them.

Nobody knows what Magician’s Apprentice/Witch’s Familiar actually means. The Bells of Saint John refers to The Doctor recieving a call on his Saint John’s… Ambulance(?) emblazoned TARDIS phone

[Ben Saunders]

Twice Upon A Time is a really nice title, imo.

[Dave]

Nobody knows what Magician’s Apprentice/Witch’s Familiar actually means.

Am I missing something? I thought it was pretty clear that they were both descriptions of Clara, defining her by her relationships to the Doctor and Missy in the two episodes.

I quite liked the mysterious nature of them and the way they didn’t give away much about the story.

[Ben Saunders]

I think that’s the intention, yeah. Time Heist is a based title, too.

[Captain No-Name]

I thought it was pretty clear that they were both descriptions of Clara, defining her by her relationships to the Doctor and Missy in the two episodes.

That was my conclusion, yes. But I always have to strain to remember those two titles, and I’m not at all sure which way round they go.

It might sound very boring of me, but when a show has lots of episodes I always prefer titles to be memorably attached to the experience of watching the episode. I actually have the same problem with modern Red Dwarf. Early Red Dwarf has memorable titles like Bodyswap and Future Echoes, which are a piece of cake to remember, and easy to mentally assign to plots; latter day Dwarf has titles I find more bothersome like Samsara and Can of Worms for goodness sake.

The Bells of St John is an abysmal title. Yes, the TARDIS phone rings at the beginning. But that story is really about being trapped in the WiFi, meeting modern Clara and driving up the Shard on a motorbike. None of which I find easy to mentally attach to “The Bell’s of St John.”

[Dave]

“Shardwification!”

[Captain No-Name]

Perfect suggestion, Dave.

[Seb Patrick]

Why is Fear Her called Fear Her though

[Captain No-Name]

Oh good point, Seb. It really ought to have some kind of drawing-based title.

Maybe they watched the rushes back and realised Chloe wasn’t scary enough, so they thought they’d subtly influence the viewer by instructing us on how to respond.

[International Debris]

Yes, the Moffat era titles are definitely more… abstract in places. The Power of Three is another, I couldn’t for the life of me remember what it was about until a rewatch. A Chibnall one there, too.
That said, The Long Game, Smith and Jones, Partners in Crime and Midnight aren’t the most evocative titles of their respective threats. Obviously The Long Game makes sense in context of the series, but the episode itself, less so.

I see it as a similar split to the earlier Who titles and the JNT era ones. In the ’70s and late ’60s, there were SO many The Something of Something titles that unless they’re really specific, they do begin to merge into one. The Seeds of Death, The Robots of Death, City of Death, The Hand of Fear, Planet of Evil, etc. As soon as JNT took over, we get titles like Full Circle, Warriors’ Gate, Earthshock, Snakedance, Mawdryn Undead. As his tenure went on I think he stopped giving a shit and we went back to Mark of the Rani and The Curse of Fenric.

There are some Moffat titles that I just don’t know at all, including most of series 9 and 10s. I still can’t remember the last episode series 10 at all.

[Plastic Percy]

I think The Long Game works. We do learn that the creature and the Editor have been manipulating Human society for a long time, and even the Doctor takes the time to point out that the future isn’t how it should be. It’s only later that we learn the events of that episode were part of an even bigger conspiracy orchestrated by the Daleks.

[si]

Why is Fear Her called Fear Her though

Oh good point, Seb. It really ought to have some kind of drawing-based title.

They should change Chloe’s name to Ola, and call it Cry Ola.

No? *trudges off*

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