Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Marleen’s NO SPOILERS Doctor Who Thread – Part II

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  • #87307
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Genesis. Obviously.

    #87308
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Genesis. Obviously.

    Gabriel or Collins?

    #87309
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    Talons. Of. Weng. Chiang.

    #87312
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I probably haven’t seen enough old Who to give an informed answer but I did get ‘City of Death’ DVD with Tom Baker’s doctor from the library a few months back. I rather enjoyed it, and I understand it’s a fan favorite.

    #87313
    ChrisM
    Participant

    And while, by now, I recognise a name as a Doctor?s actor?s one when I read it, I never know who?s who ;)

    Marleen, if you’d like to put name to face check out the top of the page:

    http://www.gallifreyone.com/index2.php

    #87314
    Dave
    Participant

    The Curse Of Fenric

    #87315
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Tomb of the Cybermen.

    #87316

    Just one? Shit.

    But since Tanya’s already suggested a good story with a great Doctor and assistant, I’ll chip in with “Carnival of Monsters” (if you can get it. Is it available?) It’s one of the shorter Third Doctor stories, and I recall it being rather fun to watch.

    #87317
    TheLeen
    Participant

    O_O

    #87318
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    We should just do one for each Doctor, really.

    #87319
    si
    Participant

    Personally, I really like Pyramids of Mars.

    #87320
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Or someone could put up one poll for each Doctor. Actually, I’d like that.

    #87323
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Ok, voting now begins for the First Doctor story that Marleen needs to see. My vote goes tis second ever story, The Daleks. Although if you watched the first, An Unearlthy Child, you’d see my grandma’s cousin! Have I mentioned that one enough?

    #87324
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Although if you watched the first, An Unearlthy Child, you?d see my grandma?s cousin! Have I mentioned that one enough?

    Actually, I’ve not heard that one…

    #87325
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Oooooooh, shiny royal who ancestorage.

    And yehh. If I’m going to see one iconic Who story from each Doctor’s era, I’d like to see them in chronological order.

    #87326
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > Actually, I?ve not heard that one?

    http://uk.imdb.com/name/nm0153278/

    She’s most famous for Sam, I think, but looking at that list she’s got some impressive credits on there!

    #87327

    Should there be a separate thread for all that? It’s just that this one’s getting a bit big.

    #87344
    Dave
    Participant

    >She?s most famous for Sam, I think, but looking at that list she?s got some impressive credits on there!

    She was really good. She’s easily the most committed actor in both her Dr Who stories.

    Hur: He told me his name…
    Za: Name?
    Hur: Yes. His name is “Friend.”

    #87346
    Phil
    Participant

    She can’t be that good if she hasn’t worked since 1976.

    #87347
    TheLeen
    Participant

    The Doctor’s Daughter

    What I liked:

    – Colourful aliens. Like a cross-breed of goldfish and parrots.

    What I hated:

    Since I can’t include THE ENTIRE SCRIPT, I’m going to give a few examples:

    – All the dialogue, including the two attempts at comedy.
    – Even the dialogue of the Hath, because the bubbling started to get on my nerves quickly.
    – Martha was awful in this episode.
    – Donna was… not particularly good in this episode.
    – Hated everything about Jenny, despite her cute looks.
    – THE DOCTOR was awful in this episode. But let’s start at the beginning…
    – So. From the title, I was expecting a certain degree of epicness, and what I got was… the opposite.
    – The Doctor’s daughter is not his daughter, but his clone.
    – And she was cloned complete with clothes on and a dramatic eyeliner applied. Clearly the eyeliner is vital in battle.
    – Jenny for generated? Why not Annie for anomaly?
    – She also was cloned with leet war skillz and nothing else. Oh wait, except for leet knowledge abotu how to seduce a teenage soldier, as well as a concept of heterosexual relationship. In a society that breeds exclusively by cloning. Good job.
    – Is General Cobb supposed to be a settler, or a clone? Because he is, quite clearly, at least in his fifties, but doesn’t remember the week before last.
    – Jenny aka Little Miss Obvious: “Close the door.” “They’re coming.” et cetera…
    – She may be cute and she may be of more royal Who ancestorage than Cappsy, but she can’t act. Sorry.
    – Jenny hopping through the lasers: Blaaaaaaaaaaah. Seen this executed 300 times better. In a Britney Spears video.
    – Martha’s Hath being Little Mister Obvious by jumping into a pool of wet quicksand like the redshirt he is in order to provide some emotional drama. It doesn’t work.
    – Donna works out the numbers. Weeee! Question: they keep seeing numbers that are mostly the same. How does that mean that it is dates? Another question: they see a number that is digital. How does that mean that it is TODAY’s date?
    – The creation myth & the terraforming device: not original.
    – The typical golden glitter: not original.
    – Everyone admiring the golden glitter and suddenly being friends: what the fuck? They’re easier to distract than me!
    – Cobb trying to shoot the Doctor: yawn.
    – Jenny stepping in front of him: yawn.
    – Dramatical dying scene: yawn.
    – Martha knowing all about the state Jenny’s in, with Jenny being Gallifreyan with two hearts, no blood anywhere (not even a hole in the shirt), no knowledge of whether a heart or the lung was hit… rubbish.
    – And there’s still room for the low point of the episode. Martha: “She didn’t regenerate. She’s like you, but not enough.” Doctor: “She’s too much like me!” ehhhhhhh… what?
    – Jenny waking up from the dead because of terraforming: yeah, like that makes sense. And: the peak of unoriginalness.
    – An opportunity wasted to do something good with the Doctor, the family he lost, and a rampant teenage daughter (something that I actually think wouldn’t have had to be shit) = shit.

    It’s shit. Really. It’s worse than Daleks in Manhattan. I hated every minute of it. In other news, I have PMS. I wanted to be fair, so I watched it a second time and tried to find things that I don’t hate. But it’s still shit.

    I apologise to everyone who enjoyed this episode for the harsh words.

    #87350
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Marleen, you are both entirely correct and awesome.

    #87351
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Indeed. What a piece of poo that was.

    #87352
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    You should do all your reviews with PMS.

    #87353
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    >Jenny for generated? Why not Annie for anomaly?

    Heh! No, this ep didn’t live up to the hype at all…

    #87356
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Ah. The next morning, I’m still aggravated. The more I think about it, the more things I remember that I hate.

    I rather liked “The Unicorn and the Wasp”, but that’s probably because it came directly after “The Doctor’s Daughter”.

    As for Jenny – I really, REALLY hope that she re-appears at some later point, preferable while Doctor 10 is still in effect, and some capable writer makes her BE COOL. It would make things right and justify this shitty episode. Just as I really, REALLY hope that Queen Elizabeth I will be in one of next year’s specials. Because I don’t like loose ends. Actually, I do like loose ends, because you can get back to them later and tie them up and then I get continuity orgasms. So. They’d better address this.

    Okay, next one then:

    The Unicorn and the Wasp

    A mediocre episode that is forgiven its shitty components because it is actually fun to watch.

    What we liked:

    – Whodunit with Agatha Christie, generally a good idea for an episode.
    – With a lot of lovely crime clich?s.
    – Good guest actors.
    – Nice costumes. I like costume episodes.
    – The wasp with the pipe in the library. Brilliant.

    What else was on our mind afterwards:

    – The Unicorn was in the title purely for reasons of making the title sound nice. Not much unicorn in the episode at all.
    – The POINT of whodunit type crime stories is that in the end, the reader (or viewer) could’ve worked out the solution themselves if they’d been as clever as the detective. That wasn’t the case for this episode. The first 30 minutes were really decent. Then the solution involved a shape-shifting alien, a magical heart pendant, sleeping super abilities, and a rite of telepathically imprinting a paradigm onto a newborn wasp. There is no way we could’ve worked THAT out. In other words:
    – Fun build-up, lame-ass plot solution.

    Still 1948395725 times more fun than “The Doctor’s Daughter”.

    #87357
    Andrew
    Participant

    I can’t do a big defence of TDD, because it simply isn’t a good enough episode to be worth the effort, but I found it had redeeming qualities that, for me, at least put it about The Lazarus Experiment.

    Georgia Moffett – well, I thought she could act. That’s all. I also like how not-like-Rose she was, given that it would have been easy to just do a re-run of Rose’s Daddy issues.

    I did like some of the comedy.

    I’m very keen indeed on the questioning of the Doctor as a claimed pacifist as well as a defeater of monsters and bad people. Questions worth asking, especially when series four has been a little less Doctor-centric in its storytelling, and asked pretty well here.

    Oh, and I like the sets.

    Interesting to see that TheLeen had NONE of the problems understanding the ending that plagued forums and message boards immediately after broadcast. While a large number of people were bewildered by whether her revival was some kind of regeneration, Marleen – and old-school geek and Trek fan – went straight to ‘terraform revival’ with no hesitation. The rest of us got there, but the similarity of effect choice, and the lack of exposition, got in the way of the story for many.

    > The POINT of whodunit type crime stories is that in the end, the reader (or viewer) could?ve worked out the solution themselves

    One thing I adore about TUATW is that, when interviewed, only one character is shown to be telling a story consistent with their flashback. And, because of that – in retrospect, anyway – they can be the only one who is concealing something, the flashback being a fabrication based on their statement rather than a truth concealed BY their statement. I love the writing of that.

    #87358
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > One thing I adore about TUATW is that, when interviewed, only one character is
    > shown to be telling a story consistent with their flashback. And, because of that
    > – in retrospect, anyway – they can be the only one who is concealing something,
    > the flashback being a fabrication based on their statement rather than a truth
    > concealed BY their statement. I love the writing of that.

    Good point. We were suspecting him of being up to no good, now I know why.

    (Here’s what we’d thought – a giant shape-shifting wasp broke into the church and replaced the reverend.)

    As for The Doctor’s Daughter…

    Here’s what we’d thought – two groups of unaware contestants in some sort of maze; the numbers probably reminded me of The Cube or something.

    And Georgia Moffett: well, she wasn’t hideous. And I really only noticed it during the second viewing. But I was under the impression that she put not enough excitement into her voice (all her sentences seemed to end in a full stop, not exclamation mark – even when on the run) while she put TOO MUCH excitement into her face (wide-eyed over-excited open-mouthed grin-wise). Okay, the over-the-top excitement kind of suited the role. But her delivery of sentences didn’t suit THAT. And the discrepancy just felt very awkward to me. The rest of her acting was okay.

    That’s why up there I typed “Close the door.” instead of “Close the door!!!” …

    #87360
    pfm
    Participant

    She’s fit and blond so it doesn’t matter.

    #87361
    Andrew
    Participant

    > put it about The Lazarus Experiment.

    I meant ‘above’, obviously.

    > Here?s what we?d thought – two groups of unaware contestants in some sort of maze;

    I went through a similar process. The cloning booths seemed like a ‘new life’ or ‘extra men’ part of a videogame.

    > She?s fit and blond so it doesn?t matter.

    It was talk like this that led to Martha’s slow descent into tedium being ignored – everyone was too busy staring at her arse to notice. :-)

    #87362
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > put it about The Lazarus Experiment.

    I’m sorry, but I just don’t get the Lazarus hate. I watched the episode again the other week and I think I liked it even more. Where’s the equivalent pair of superb performances of Mark Gatiss and Thelma Barlow in TDD? Where’s the nice interweaving of the main series arc in TDD? Where’s the big, satisfying finale in TDD?

    > everyone was too busy staring at her arse to notice. :-)

    Also, I think her good work of series 3 counts in her favour a great deal.

    #87363
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I?m sorry, but I just don?t get the Lazarus hate.

    I agree on the performances, but not the interweaving’s pretty basic and the finale far from satisfying. For me. The predictable story and primitive characterisation – and the fact the overly-linear story essentially climaxes half way then carries interminably on – really dumps it to the bottom.

    > Also, I think her good work of series 3 counts in her favour a great deal.

    I just rewatched the series three finale and I was struck by how little I liked her performance. As the crush thing wore off, there seemed to be less and less to the character, and her performance seemed more and one-note. Looking back I’m not sure her she actually had the ability – though I may be jaded by mediocre turns in both Who and Torchwood since.

    #87459
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Silence in The Library & Forest of the Dead

    That’s more like it.

    We loved:

    – The first sentence: “Close your eyes and tell me what you see.” Best opening line ever.
    – The last sentence: “Sweet dreams.” Good closing, too.
    – Cute little girl with some amazing acting skills.
    – Doctor Moon. Doctormoon. Good stuff.
    – Donna & Lee. Awwwwwwwwww.
    – River Song was a kind of awesome that scares me a little.
    – Ghosting. Awesome.
    – space suit skeleton zombies.
    – Most of the dialogue, except when the Doctor took so long to work out that the woman knows him from his future.

    There were however things (that I mainly noticed during the second viewing) that didn’t, well, that weren’t quite satisfactory. :x Here we go:

    We wondered:

    – I’d actually wondered how the Doctor’s past, present and future work – surely he must’ve bumped into future friends before…
    – Yeah, books are made from wood. But you know what else is made from wood? Wood! Like the door that the Doctor said was made out of it. Or everything else in the library ;)
    – The Doctor and CAL saved the expedition’s minds to the hard drive. Bless them. And now exactly why can’t CAL beam them down again now?
    – Once more, death has been untimately defeated by science (see also: The Doctor’s Daughter and “How to become immortal by means of breahting in terraforming gases”)
    – Soooo, the Doctor would never give anyone the Sonic Screwdriver; this would have been a good idea for the plot if it was actually the case. As it is, teh Doctor likes to hand his Screwdriver to average Joe, drop it off telegraph masts and so on; so far, he hasn’t been acting very protective of it, or at least that’s my impression.
    – How did they know the Doctor couldn’t have survived the brain thing she did in the end?
    – CAL is Mr Lux’ grandfather’s youngest daughter. That makes her Mr Lux’ aunt. The library has been closed for several generations. How can there be three generations between Mr Lux and his aunt, however little?
    – How can the library have the kind of reputation needed to be THE Library (and something the Doctor knows) when it’s been available for the public so briefly? Opened up, quarantined for 100 years, Doctor appears, quarantined forever after…
    – The Vashta Nerada had nothing to eat! Never had a taste of flesh from the day they hatched until the expedition came along!

    Despite all this, I still think it’s two of the best episodes ever. Like I said earlier – if an episode is fun to watch, you don’t really care (and don’t want to care) about such things as minor inconsistencies…

    Now, Mr Moffat. He’s created some damn fine episode scripts there. But I can’t really imagine an entire series’ worth of such episodes. You can’t keep up that level of personal drama for 13 episodes. And also, he can’t keep writing bigger, better love interests for the Doctor. :P

    Will we see more of River Song, or Lee McAvoy in the future? Probably not. And that sucks. They’ll probably go the way of Elizabeth I and Jenny. River seems to have known him either with this face (which means he would have to meet her and go through a LOT of stuff with her during his current incarnation, which, as we sadly know through meta-knowledge, isn’t going to happen) or with a number of different faces (without really knowing their sort order, thus the diary check) and the Doctor has only three lives left (as far as we know right now). The latter is more likely, so the writers would have more time than for example, making Elizabeth’s scene in The Shakespeare Code make sense. You see the problem? The problem is that I CAN’T STOP THINKING ABOUT THESE THINGS.

    #87467
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Now, Mr Moffat. He?s created some damn fine episode scripts there. But I can?t really imagine an entire series? worth of such episodes. You can?t keep up that level of personal drama for 13 episodes. And also, he can?t keep writing bigger, better love interests for the Doctor. :P

    No. No. No.

    It’s odd. I’m not the world’s most passionate guy and yet query, dispute or dismiss any Moffat Who and I just want to scream “YOU’RE WRONG! YOU’RE WRONG!”

    I actually expect there to be a drop in viewing figures during Moffat’s run and yet I couldn’t care. I’m probably setting myself up for a huge fall, but I just refuse to consider Moffat’s Who as being anything less than my favourite Who of all-time.

    I’ve grown over the four new series to have a huge amount of appreciation for what RTD achieved, and yet still if I had to set down and pick my Top 5 New Who stories I know 4 of them would be the Moffat written ones, very possibly in the Top 4 slots.

    #87473
    Phil
    Participant

    >I?m not the world?s most passionate guy

    Lola. Lo-lo-lo-lo Lola. Lo-lo-lo lo Lolaahhhhh…

    #87480
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Played for and got :)

    #87481
    pfm
    Participant

    Jekyll suggests that Moffat-run Who being consistently great is far from definite. Also, with the pressure of running the series how likely is it that he can come up with something as good as TGITFP, Blink etc. ? OK RTD managed to throw in some real crackers of his own, but it was mainly his finales and opening eps, not to mention the Christmas eps, that held his concentration.

    #87482
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    No. No. No. You’re Wrong. You’re Wrong. You’RE WRONG! Jekyll was consistently brilliant. Even the finale. (Well I did warn you)

    Seriously though, I thought Jekyll was the best bit of TV from last year aside from Moffat Who. Similarly Coupling, Joking Apart and Press Gang were all amongst my favourite shows at the time they aired – even though I was a bit too young for the last two at the time.

    Fair enough not everything he’s done has been head and shoulders above everyone else. I never really took to Chalk, and I remember that getting terribly reviews, but in terms of Who… Come on! I’ve just never seen a chink in his armour.

    ‘Blink’ was a revelation for a bottle episode. Picasso on a postage stamp. A spellbinding piece of TV that through up a character we were all begging to have sex with/see as a new companion (delete as applicable) and iconic original monsters.

    ‘Empty Child/Doctor Dances’ gave us Captain Jack and monsters that truly hit bang on the old ‘hide behind your sofa’ cliche despite the fact it was just a small child repeating four simple words. Probably the first time New Who truly hit it’s stide.

    ‘Girl in the Fireplace’ – The second best 45 minutes of television ever.

    I actually went into series four with nerves that he couldn’t possibly do it again. After watching ‘Silence in the Library’ my first thought was well it was an A just not an A+. A week later after watching Part 2 with Ian I had tears in my eyes, and a cheshire cat’s grin feeling like I had just been through some quasi-relgious-tantric experiment. It felt like someone had been playing Rubik’s cube with my brain for a week and as the credits rolled click everything into place.

    If Moffat was going to do bad Who, It would have happened by now. Either in his episodes or in the magazine. I genuinely don’t believe the size of the task will have any relevance.

    With regards to Xmas eps, finales and openers I guess it open’s up another debate about what constitutes a good series. I’m assuming Moffat’s run will follow a similar pattern to RTD in that he will personally craft these. I was pretty underwhelmed by both Series 2 and 4 apart from the Moffat eps and the finales. Series 3 wasn’t going well either until Moffat, The Cornell 2-parter and Utopia although Smith & Jones was a cracking opener.

    Edit: I’ve removed the next 98 paragraphs of Moffat based verbal masterbation. Although I did conclude that only Neil Gaiman was in comparable. Ye gods I hope the rumour of him writing an episode at some point comes to fruition too.

    #87483
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > If Moffat was going to do bad Who, It would have happened by now. Either in his episodes or in the magazine. I genuinely don?t believe the size of the task will have any relevance.

    You got me wrong there – I think all of his episodes are brilliant, including Time Crash. I love the dialogue he writes. He manages to write lyrical stuff into all-day dialogue without making it sound corny and pretentious, just beautiful. His episodes are poetry.

    I just thought – right now, his episodes have been (among) the highlights of every series. What is a series going to be like consisting of highlights? Would or wouldn’t it be TOO AWESOME? Like eating candy all day?

    (I know he isn’t going to write every episode himself. But with luck, more of them than he has so far.)

    What makes his episodes be awesome? The good (and very creative) storylines and the perfect texts.

    What makes his episodes emotional rollercoaster rides? Increased creepiness, increased drama and increased Doctor lovelife.

    I think series 6 of Who can do with each and every episode having good storylines and perfect dialogues, but not too many having a) and b) (there should still be room for highlights) and christ, please no more than one episode per series with c).

    I think Steven Moffat is a genius. But RTD Who is already pretty extreme in its colourfulness (lacking a better term) as it is, and I don’t want to end up lost in lollipop land. I really don’t know how else to explain it.

    #87487
    John Hoare
    Participant

    My main issue with the library two-parter is that whilst it’s absolutely amazing, and some of the best New Who so far, there’s too many repeated themes from Moffat’s earlier Who stories in there. But I doubt that’ll be a problem when he takes over as showrunner.

    Oh, and I’m just watching a repeat of The Sontaran Stratagem, and the bit where Donna says she’s going home to the Doctor makes me fucking head want to fall off. It’s excruciating. I grew to like Tate well enough in the role eventually, but whenever she did the full-on Tate-isms, which happened far more often in the first half of the season, it makes it impossible to.

    I’d come to the conclusion that it was just the first episode which had put me off her… but rewatching the series, I don’t think that’s the case any more.

    #87488
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Plus, she actually had flashbacks to the three episodes previous as if she’d been gone for years, when clearly she fucking hadn’t.

    #87489
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >Seriously though, I thought Jekyll was the best bit of TV from last year aside from Moffat Who.

    Jekyll was very good. I didn’t like the explanation of how this present day version of Jekyll/Hyde came about, (even taking into account that the other explanations I can think of would have been rather cliche) but the rest, including the very end, great.

    #87491
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Jekyll was awesome until the last episode came along like a big lumbering ball of crazy messiness.

    #87495
    Andrew
    Participant

    > there?s too many repeated themes from Moffat?s earlier Who stories in there.

    Someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t most of the Moffat stories all pitched for series one? (Aside from Blink, right?) So a certain tonal similarity isn’t surprising. Plus, no doubt, there’s a priority of ‘stuff that works for RTD’s Who’. You pitch things appropriate to the showrunner’s vision.

    Moffat’s interest in ‘the Doctor on TV’, ‘familiar, transformed human monsters with catchphrases’ and ‘time conundrum love’ all gel well with the RTD format – where dreaming of travel in the TARDIS, iconic imagery and emotional whack are key aspects.

    So, ditto – I doubt it’ll be a problem with a team of writers and a different set of creative and production priorities.

    > Tate-isms

    My problem with stuff that’s basically organic to the performer is that you can apply this negative-sounding term to any actor. “Cleese-isms’, ‘Tennant-isms’, ‘O’Dowd-isms’…

    In Tate’s case these things simply, and sadly, become familiar in one context first – the sketch show. I guess I was lucky in as much as I didn’t over-expose myself to that show, so Tate’s mannerisms mostly feel like part of Donna.

    I mean, I dislike the structure and substance of the sequence you’re talking about (too early to work as the mislead, too early for the flashbacks, and too drawn out to stay funny), but the performances give me no concern at all.

    #87502
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > In Tate?s case these things simply, and sadly, become familiar in one context first – the sketch show. I guess I was lucky in as much as I didn?t over-expose myself to that show, so Tate?s mannerisms mostly feel like part of Donna.

    Yep.

    #87506
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Someone will correct me if I?m wrong, but weren?t most of the Moffat stories all pitched for series one? (Aside from Blink, right?) So a certain tonal similarity isn?t surprising. Plus, no doubt, there?s a priority of ?stuff that works for RTD?s Who?. You pitch things appropriate to the showrunner?s vision.

    Moffat?s interest in ?the Doctor on TV?, ?familiar, transformed human monsters with catchphrases? and ?time conundrum love? all gel well with the RTD format – where dreaming of travel in the TARDIS, iconic imagery and emotional whack are key aspects.

    This is true. And one person’s repetitiveness is another person’s coherence of tone. I think it sails *slightly* too close to repetition in that final two-parter (but *only* in that final two-parter). But that’s subjective, and it doesn’t stop it being an amazing couple of episodes.

    So, ditto – I doubt it?ll be a problem with a team of writers and a different set of creative and production priorities.

    Yeah, I’m not worried at all in this regard. I think we can safely say that we’ll get more episodes where the time travel actually plays a part in the plot, rather than just being a means to get the story started, though. Hopefully it won’t be used too much.

    > Tate-isms

    My problem with stuff that?s basically organic to the performer is that you can apply this negative-sounding term to any actor. ?Cleese-isms?, ?Tennant-isms?, ?O?Dowd-isms??

    I didn’t actually mean the term negatively in its own right at all – I’m just using it as a short hand, because I couldn’t think of another way to describe it. I’d happily use the phrase in a positive sense with another person.

    In Tate?s case these things simply, and sadly, become familiar in one context first – the sketch show. I guess I was lucky in as much as I didn?t over-expose myself to that show, so Tate?s mannerisms mostly feel like part of Donna.

    I mean, I dislike the structure and substance of the sequence you?re talking about (too early to work as the mislead, too early for the flashbacks, and too drawn out to stay funny), but the performances give me no concern at all.

    I think to be honest, it’s just that I don’t like them at all – I’ve not seen much of the sketch show either (although I’ve seen enough to know I intensely dislike it, admittedly). If they worked for me in Who, I’d have no trouble adapting. But they just drive me up the wall, in whatever context. I mean, I do see them as part of Donna as well – it never feels out of character – just a part of Donna that drives me up the bloody wall!

    It’s a shame they annoy me so much, really – because I’ve really come round to the idea that Martha is a pretty nothing character, and Donna is far more interesting. But just when I relax into her, she does something that really bloody irritates me! As I recall, it calms down in the second half of the series, though.

    #87511
    Dave
    Participant

    >?Cleese-isms?, ?Tennant-isms?, ?O?Dowd-isms??

    O’Dowd is the new Doctor

    #87513
    TheLeen
    Participant

    What’s he gonna say then, “many planets have an Ireland”?

    #87522
    Dave
    Participant

    >What?s he gonna say then, ?many planets have an Ireland??

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qi6inFgxjpU

    #87524
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Oh, RIGHT. I forgot about that! Haha, fantastic.

    #87545
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Jekyll was awesome until the last episode came along like a big lumbering ball of crazy messiness.

    YOU’RE WRONG! (Repeat to fade)

    #87577
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Midnight

    Uhm. That was special.

    It was good telly. An enjoyable 40-something minutes.

    But it’s not what I want to see when I pop a Doctor Who DVD in the player.

    Same with “Blink” back then, really. It was great. But I’d never rank it as #1 bestest episode of Doctor Who. Because it is something else.

    We were a bit annoyed that there was no real solution to the plot. Like, who or what that creature was and what it wanted. It was such an interesting alien… we would’ve liked to know.

    Turn Left

    That one was surprisingly good for an episode without the Doctor in it. I really liked it. It was very tense, the bug and its clicky noises were creepy enough, and Donna was great.

    Then again, we’ve had that “What if everything was shit and only a handful people know” story last series already…

    Why is Rose talking like she just got an anesthetic injection in her face?
    Also, I’d been looking forward to seeing her again, but now she seems like an entirely different person than back in series two.

    Bad Wolf. Lovely.

    Cloister Bell. Something that I should know about, but don’t. I only know Cloister the Stupid :(

    Had to keep these two short, because I’m off to watch the grande finale. :D

    #87581
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Well, what a letdown that was.

    #87583
    Andrew
    Participant

    Oh this is going to be interesting…

    #87585
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Shall I keep this one for next time I have PMS? :P

    Nah, I’ll type it all when I have the time… although the two episodes were bloody long, so in order to remember all of the stuff I disapprove of, I’d have to watch them again, like in the olden days, with pencil and paper ready.

    To cut it short for now: too much of everything.

    #87590
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Quite how you could like the terrible Turn Left and have big problems with the finale is baffling to me!

    #87592
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Quite how you could like the terrible Turn Left and have big problems with the finale is baffling to me!

    THIS!!!!!!!!!

    #87602
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >THIS!!!!!!!!!

    THIS!!!!!!!!!

    And Midnight is awesome.

    #87603
    Dave
    Participant

    It looks like Marleen’s fallen out of love, maybe it’ll take another thread to remind her what she liked about Doctor Who in the first place.

    #87614
    ChrisM
    Participant

    The finale is good.

    But, I can see how many would dislike it. Particularly considering THAT scene. Oh dear.

    #87615
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I thought it was the best of the finales so far. It was stupid, over-the-top, messy, confusing, badly-explained, schmaltzy and overlong. But gloriously so!

    Also Davros.

    Also Cribbins.

    #87616
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I loved most of the finale.

    But the more I think about it, the more the whole two Doctor thing – and Rose going off with the second Doctor – can fuck right the fuck off.

    #87617
    TheLeen
    Participant

    > It looks like Marleen?s fallen out of love,

    Nooooooo. No no no no no.

    > I thought it was the best of the finales so far.

    I thought the finales have gotten gradually worse… (I can’t remember whether I preferred the 2nd or 3rd at the time – but still)

    > It was stupid, over-the-top,
    > messy, confusing, badly-explained, schmaltzy and overlong.

    And I thought I had to write a summary… :P

    > But gloriously so!

    Really? :(

    Ah well – I don’t want to discuss this based solely on my bad mood ;) I have a little much to do at work right now, so it may have to wait until Saturday…

    #87625
    TheLeen
    Participant

    I figured I’d rather get this over with and do over time!

    Ah, where to start. Like I said, it was bloody long (which is not necessarily a bad thing – on the contrary, actually) and my memory is kind of blurry already.

    What I liked:

    – Donna at her best. I loved Catherine Tate in this, especially in the end when she did the “Ha!” and the “Oh yes!” – and now I’m a bit sad that she’s gone for good. (but I hope they stick with it, this time.) What the Doctor said to Donna’s mum at the end was good, too.
    – German Daleckery
    – Harriet Jones.
    – Jackie and Mickey. (Slightly underused, sadly)
    – I was actually pleased to see Sarah Jane. (Although she was in no way crucial to the story. But then, who was?)
    – The idea of the stars going out.
    – Davros was kind of cool.
    – How Rose wasn’t part of the WebEx – at least it came as a surprise.
    – The Shadow Proclamation.
    – List probaly incomplete.

    What I didn’t like:

    – Rose. She didn’t act or sound any like I remember her. And: she hardly DID anything. After all the dimension-hopping, TARDIS-milking, future-foretelling and kicking-arse-ness (which was never explained!) – she fucking doesn’t do anything in this episode but provide a level of emotional drama for the Doctor. Which (at least as far as I am concerned) didn’t work. It should have worked.
    – K9. I feel evil mentioning it. But I think in an epic, mature, desperation-based series finale, he has no place. unlike one of those early-series two-parters, which would have been perfect for him.
    – The idea of a 27-planets-doomsday machine. (Granted – it LOOKED pretty. But I didn’t like the idea.)
    – The “cliffhanger” at the end of The Stolen Earth. No, actually, that’s not true. It was a good cliffhanger. But the way it was shrugged off at the beginning of Journey’s End, in this “no big deal, let’s move on” way, I didn’t like. Cheating…
    – How the TARDIS pulled Earth back.
    – It’s new, it’s a first, it’s never been there; but the Doctors know just about enough about how fast he’s going to age to tell Rose everything about it on a beach. (By the way – how did they get home from there? Call a cab? ;))
    – The Doctor II exiled for genocide? Riiiight… look who’s talking… anyway: very unconvincing reason for dropping him off in a parallel world.
    – List probably incomplete.

    Things I feel I should have known beforehand

    – Still don’t know what the Cloister Bell is.
    – Should Osterhagen mean anything to me? Or was it made up for the episode?
    – Davros
    – ALL of the bloody spin-offs. Mr Smith?

    What I learned:

    – The Doctor should always keep a spare hand, because then he won’t have to regenerate his 13 lives away. (see also: series four’s 101 new ways to immortality)
    – Germans always keep their technology in Castle Wolfenstein. (see also: Indiana Jones)

    Random observations:

    – I really should’ve watched all those spin-offs.
    – I really don’t know why they never cast Germans for German roles. The German lady’s German sounded… well, not horrible, but very noticeably foreign.
    – Rose’s story is told and over; Donna’s gone for good; Martha is still an insufferable bore (There were sweet sides to Martha in series three, why didn’t they show any of that in sereis four?). At least we’ll be getting a fresh new start.
    – Jack Harkness always comes back from the dead with ihs clothes intact. That doesn’t make sense, and it should be changed. (Cheating! *g*)
    – How can Donna go back to a normal life when she’s been absent for what must have been months? Surely they would’ve had to make up a coma or something to explain it? Because her mates would ask her about it? For example that night, on the phone?
    – And they may never mention the Doctor, not a single word about him, because her head will explode, but he can go out there and talk to her in the kitchen ;) handy.
    – The Doctor Donna thing – I just want to say that I didn’t mind it. Didn’t especially love it, but it worked for me. Unlike much of the rest.

    Actually, scrap that. This “Like/Dislike” thing doesn’t work for the finale.

    There were a lot of tiny little things that only irritated me on the whole. I didn’t HATE the episode, like I hated, let’s say, The Doctor’s Daughter. But it was… it just didn’t leave me with a good feeling. I wasn’t scared, I didn’t cry, it didn’t touch me. Why?

    I think part of the reason WHY it didn’t touch me was the WAY over the top setting.
    – In series one, boom, Dalek invasion, scary; Rose becoming omnipotent, epic; the (not sexual) kiss in the end, touching.
    – Series two, boom, Cybermen invasion, fair enough; Dimension Jumping and all that, okay; goodbye scene, very sad.
    – Series three, the Master enslaves Earth – that should have been scary, but the “one year of slavery” thing was already too much for me to… tune in properly. Doctor aging quickly… nothing I ever wanted to see. Touching end – maybe, but I don’t remember it at all.
    – Series four, Daleks again (sigh); this time, it’s not Earth that is threatened, not just the universe, no, ALL universes; the Doctor becomes two Doctors and Donna becomes half of a Time Lady; the ending left me cold…

    And even worse than me not really caring is this: “You’ve faught Daleks in series one already” “yeah, but they were, like, mad Daleks. These ones are PROPER Daleks.” Well, *I* was a LOT more scared of the ones in the first series; secondly, Caan (of course) and Davros (yes) and also the rest of them that were about to destroy everything, including themselves – are definitely madder than any Dalek I’ve ever seen before; thirdly, it felt like the episode wanted to make itself look scarier AT THE EXPENSE of the series one finale. It kind of killed all of series one’s “Bad Wolf” storyline. And that’s not okay. It did piss me off a little. No telly show should give you the feeling that you need to protect earlier episodes. But then, they managed to totally kill the emotional epic of series two’s finale as well by giving Rose half-a-Doctor to play with.

    As for ALL OF THE DOCTOR’S FRIENDS UNITED… I see how they wanted to give the fans something special, but it just felt so forced and unnatural. And OF COURSE K9 had to jump out of the corner. The problem that the whole nostalgia thing just doesn’t… work for me. Not THAT good anyway.

    Not everything was bad. Yeah, yeah, it was good to see so much Cribbins. But we could’ve seen much Cribbins in a different series four finale.

    So, what would I have wanted this to be like?

    – End Rose’s story, but do so in a… better way.
    – If there needs to be a happy end for Rose, give her a proper one (with a second Doctor that is 100% human. And not a git.)
    – If that wasn’t possible, have the second Doctor die in the episode. Or better yet, no second Doctor, ever (the hand thing was… not good.)
    – Have the balls to properly kill off side characters instead of sending them into exile, making them immortal, giving them amnesia and the likes. At least when it was so dramatically announced beforehand! Cheating!
    – Stop trying to come up with bigger better Daleks that kick more arse than before. Because they were INTRODUCED as kicking ultimate arse in the first place. Trying to make them morer scarier is… kind of childish.
    – Really, enough with the Daleks. The occasional Dalek would be fine. I loved the Dalek in “Dalek”, and he scared the shit out of me, but ever since, each time I see them, they’ve been less of a thrill.
    – I wish they’d given the TARDIS more to do. I know *someone* shut the door. But in other episodes, I felt like the TARDIS was truly alive, and with a bit of a personality, too. I would’ve liked that.

    But that’s nit-picking, now. The main problems are the ones I described in the middle of the wall of text here.
    – Too much of everything.
    – The sacifice of earlier epic and emotional moments for the sake of making this appear better, which pissed me off.
    – It wasn’t “outright bad”, but I’d been hoping for “really good” and it was only somewhere in between.
    – I just didn’t feel it.

    #87635
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    I think my reaction after watching the Series Four finale at the House of Symes boiled down to “Toss, but brilliant toss”. Although I found myself agreeing with lots of your points so on a second viewing it’s likely I wouldn’t be quite so satisfied.

    #87637
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Davros, though.

    #87641
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Davros was entirely bloody underused. And not, I don’t think, in a way that makes any satisfactory point, either.

    #87642
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Which was great yeah, but as TheLeen sort of said…Daleks AGAIN.

    #87643
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Which was great yeah, but as TheLeen sort of said…Daleks AGAIN.

    #87644
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Which was great yeah, but as TheLeen sort of said…Daleks AGAIN.

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