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  • #266318

    There is a start and an end point with Heaven Sent, and there would have been a first who probably stumbled through the confession dial blind leaving things behind and such (likely finishing the first round naked) and then all the others picked up in the clues left behind before the final one breaks free.

    #266319
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    The Inquisitor can’t make up its mind what it is. Enig is presented as a bootstrap paradox, but since the whole story is about being able to rewrite timelines, the plot is basically at war with itself. Kryten believes he has no free will when he travels back in time so recites his lines like a script. This is contrary to the entire point of the plot. The ending is a load of bobbins for that reason. Still, it’s a laugh, isn’t it?

    #266320
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I prefer to think of Heaven Sent as just The Doctor on some really potent acid.

    #266321
    Ridley
    Participant

    #Lazy Whovian scum, lazy Whovian scum, their hearts are dead and their brains are numb, lazy lying Whovian scum, lazy lying Whovian scum.

    #266322
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Isn’t Kryten repeating what his past self said because he knows that’s what supposed to be said so he says it verbatim?

    He only says it that way for the sake of mystery and a funny line*, which are fine reasons, but it feels like the original point of him relaying the Enigma message and its importance as a clue got lost in the rewrites or in-universe loop somewhere.

    * I remember finding it hilarious the first time when I thought it was just a random exclamation he was fated to make.

    #266323
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Isn’t it weird how in series V Robert did that very affected “Of course!” on a few occasions that he hasn’t done since.

    #266324
    Spaceworm Jim
    Participant

    I think he’s just repeating what he’s heard verbatim because he doesn’t want to cause a paradox.

    Has anyone played Escape from Monkey Island? There’s a puzzle in there where you (as Guybrush) come across yourself in the future and Future Guybrush hands you certain objects in a specific order. In the next scene you find you have become Future Guybrush and you have to hand Past Guybrush the same objects in the same order, and if you don’t this weird timehole thing appears and sucks you up and you go back to the beginning of that bit and have to do it again. So it’s like that, except instead of you being a pirate called Guybrush it’s Robert Llewellyn being an android called Kryten.

    For any fans of Monkey Island who have played Escape, I can only apologise for reminding you of the experience.

    #266326
    Dave
    Participant

    Isn’t it weird how in series V Robert did that very affected “Of course!” on a few occasions that he hasn’t done since.

    Yeah, it’s funny how that came and went. I’d never really thought about it before.

    #266327
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Has anyone played Escape from Monkey Island?

    For about five minutes before packing it in. I found the sequels steadily less absorbing, but getting through Monkey 1 at 12 was probably my favourite game experience ever.

    #266328

    Isn’t it weird how in series V Robert did that very affected “Of course!” on a few occasions that he hasn’t done since.

    Yeah, it’s funny how that came and went. I’d never really thought about it before.

    I’m having a hard time picturing / hearing it in my head. Got an example?

    #266329
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I think it’s “of course: my last words” and “ahhhhhhf course!” “The luck virus!”

    #266330

    ahh, of course.

    Thanks

    #266635
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    I don’t think this deserves its own thread but just an FYI – it appears Red Dwarf will no longer be on Netflix (UK) after June 14th. Apparently this happens periodically with Stargate in the US and it often comes back once the contract is renegotiated, but I don’t hold out hope for this as I would imagine RD may be moving over to BritBox.

    Presumably for many of here it’s more of an inconvenience than an actual problem (or none at all if you already have BritBox and it does go there), but still worth a heads-up.

    #266636
    Jenuall
    Participant

    That’s mildly annoying as Netflix has been a pretty convenient mechanism for watching them wherever I happen to find myself

    #266637
    clem
    Participant

    The BBC series are already on BritBox.

    #266660
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    The BBC series are already on BritBox.

    Oh cool, thanks for mentioning. Is The Brittas Empire on there?

    That’s mildly annoying as Netflix has been a pretty convenient mechanism for watching them wherever I happen to find myself

    Indeed. I have a workaround, streaming my own copies from cloud storage, but not with subtitles and with precisely none of the user-friendliness of Netflix. I am loathe to even entertain the thought of paying for another service I really don’t *need* though.

    #266677
    clem
    Participant

    Brittas isn’t on there. Bernard and the Genie is leaving next Tuesday, so I watched that again the other day even though it’s a Christmas thing.

    #266679

    Wait, Britbox, set up by the terrestrial channels to host like, all the UKs tv content, has content LEAVE in the same way Nextflix and other services do?

    Isn’t the point to accumulate them all under on banner and not have the issue of “which service is this series on this week?”

    #266862
    Rudolph
    Participant

    Just my really boring observation: I like the subtle updates to Lister’s outfit from XI onwards.

    Adding the Punkish Hawaiian shirts and the Mod inspired silk scarf is a nice touch, and a bit more flattering for a man Craig’s age than the same ratty shirt and t-shirt he’s been wearing since 1989.

    #266938
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Anyone else get slightly disgusted when Craig keeps licking his finger than he’s rubbed in the space dust on the garbage pod in Waiting for God?

    Maybe it’s just the pandemic sending my hygiene standards sky rocketing but it just seems rank to see him rub his finger across the grime and then stick it back in his mouth!

    #266940

    This is the man who finds piles of powder lying around on the floor, on tables, on chairs etc … and he just eats it before doing anything else.

    #266941
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I assume it was fuller’s earth so it must have been very dry.

    The crew looked like powdered milk, at least that’s edible.

    #266942
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Maybe it was Craig ad-libbing at the sight of all that white powder.

    #266943
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Cos it looks like coke. Do you see?

    #266944
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Give me an R, give me an E, give me a D…

    Give me a Red Dwarf Cocaine Pod!

    #266945
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    Anyone else get slightly disgusted when Craig keeps licking his finger than he’s rubbed in the space dust on the garbage pod in Waiting for God?

    Maybe it’s just the pandemic sending my hygiene standards sky rocketing but it just seems rank to see him rub his finger across the grime and then stick it back in his mouth!

    Can’t Smeg Won’t Smeg very nearly triggered my now mostly-dormant OCD. NONE of them washed their hands after handling the raw chicken – just the thought of it is making me feel anxious even now.

    There are a lot of things Lister does that really are disgusting, including the garbage pod thing.

    #266946
    si
    Participant

    POST DELETED BY POSTER FOR BEING SHIT

    #266948
    Dave
    Participant

    POST DELETED BY POSTER FOR BEING SHIT

    There goes the Idea For An Episode thread.

    #266982
    Stabbim the Skutter
    Participant

    Hattie’s background acting in 4 and 5 is delightful. I love the way she nods along to the other characters’ dialogue and such, although it does make me feel a bit sad for her. At least she got paid for her time, I suppose.

    I’ve never seen anyone talk about the moment in Holoship where you can see her blinking and holding back tears after watching the soppy romantic film. I’m wondering if I’m the only one who’s noticed…

    #266984
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Hattie was fantastic and I’d love to see more of her. Her background acting is excellent, she does a hell of a good job in the background for the conversation between Rimmer and Langstrom in Quarantine.

    She got a raw deal really, coming into the show just as they were running out of ideas for using the character well.

    #266985

    I’ve never seen anyone talk about the moment in Holoship where you can see her blinking and holding back tears after watching the soppy romantic film. I’m wondering if I’m the only one who’s noticed…

    wait, Holly is in Holoship?!

    #266988
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Norman is funny.

    Hattie is funny, and she can act.

    Hattie ftw for me, I really think she was treated very poorly.

    One of the biggest missed opportunities in the making of Red Dwarf is Rob and Doug not realising how much more they could do with Hattie and getting rid instead of developing Holly.

    #266994
    Jenuall
    Participant

    I was bored so went through and totted up the lines for Holly across the series. The drop off is really shocking in some cases with Hattie regularly having single figures of lines, and those that she does have becoming increasingly dull – just telling the boys that she’s detected something, or “okay matey” etc.

    Even her one “Holly” episode in White Hole gives her far less to do than Norm’s equivalent, getting barely over half as many lines as he got in Queeg.

    
    +-------------------------+-------+
    |         Episode         | Lines |
    +-------------------------+-------+
    | THE END                 |    29 |
    | FUTURE ECHOES           |    34 |
    | BALANCE OF POWER        |    20 |
    | WAITING FOR GOD         |    35 |
    | CONFIDENCE AND PARANOIA |    31 |
    | ME2                     |    23 |
    | KRYTEN                  |    26 |
    | BETTER THAN LIFE        |    18 |
    | THANKS FOR THE MEMORY   |    20 |
    | STASIS LEAK             |    15 |
    | QUEEG                   |    87 |
    | PARALLEL UNIVERSE       |    37 |
    | BACKWARDS               |     9 |
    | MAROONED                |     9 |
    | POLYMORPH               |    13 |
    | BODYSWAP                |    11 |
    | TIMESLIDES              |    21 |
    | THE LAST DAY            |    12 |
    | CAMILLE                 |     6 |
    | DNA                     |    12 |
    | JUSTICE                 |     6 |
    | WHITE HOLE              |    46 |
    | DIMENSION JUMP          |     8 |
    | MELTDOWN                |     4 |
    | HOLOSHIP                |     5 |
    | INQUISITOR              |    12 |
    | TERRORFORM              |    22 |
    | QUARANTINE              |     4 |
    | DEMONS AND ANGELS       |     9 |
    | BACK TO REALITY         |    16 |
    +-------------------------+-------+
    

    Fuck it, have some averages as well whilst I’m at it:

    
    +--------+-------+-------------+
    | SERIES | TOTAL |   AVERAGE   |
    +--------+-------+-------------+
    | S1     |   172 | 28.66666667 |
    | S2     |   203 | 33.83333333 |
    | S3     |    75 |        12.5 |
    | S4     |    82 | 13.66666667 |
    | S5     |    68 | 11.33333333 |
    +--------+-------+-------------+
    
    #266995

    Even her one “Holly” episode in White Hole gives her far less to do than Norm’s equivalent, getting barely over half as many lines as he got in Queeg.

    I think we need to let go of the idea that White Hole is a Holly episode in any way other than the character is used as a vehicle to get them into a situation.

    It’s not as though it’s about Holly’s ambition to be smart again, finding and executing a way of doing so it and screwing it up.

    It’s really about Lister and Kryten breaking Holly in the only act and then getting fucked without her.

    #266996
    Dave
    Participant

    Did you count Queeg as Holly in Queeg?

    #266997
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Oh absolutely, it’s just the closest we get in Hattie’s era to anything resembling one!

    It’s certainly an episode where Holly is an intrinsic part of the plot, whether it’s part of her own plan or not, which is obviously a fairly rare occurence.

    #266998
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Did you count Queeg as Holly in Queeg?

    No I didn’t, Queeg gets 55 lines (56 if you count “What’s happening Dudes” where it’s Charles’ face but Norm’s voice)

    So the total for that episode would be even higher if you gave all of Queeg’s lines to Holly as well

    #266999

    Yeah, it’s kind of telling that Hattie’s Holly Episode is the one where she’s turned off for most of it.

    #267005
    Warbodog
    Participant

    They recorded those poor introductions for series III before they canned them (I don’t know how those would work with the new intro anyway), so it seems like they were planning to keep using Holly as much initially.

    It was probably a gradual realisation that five was a crowd and the move towards more sci-fi stories needing the computer to do more straight computer things, which Hattie was as well suited to as the comedy. Then again, maybe Norman could have pulled off things like the DNA/Justice computer interfacing and Inquisitor intruder alert if he’d had the chance, it’s just hard to imagine.

    #267033
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Can’t agree more with the Hattie Holly appreciation.

    I understand that in terms of plotting Kryten usurps the role of exposition courier, and so heavily involving both Holly and Kryten is tricky, but Kryten is very different in terms of jokes (principally, Kryten knows what he’s talking about), so Holly’s absence is felt.

    And of course Hattie Holly is better than Norman Holly just in general, I think that’s been well established.

    #267035
    desbug
    Participant

    I always felt a little disappointed when the new series/special chatter said “HOLLY IS BACK” and then it wasn’t Hattie Hayridge…

    I also thought that was just me until I read the above few comments.

    #267040
    si
    Participant

    Even her one “Holly” episode in White Hole gives her far less to do than Norm’s equivalent, getting barely over half as many lines as he got in Queeg

    Given that a good chunk of the episode happens as a result of her switching herself off, her line count *is* going to be limited.

    #267059
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I’ve been spending far too much time pondering why the title of the episode is Gunmen of the Apocalypse.

    The reference to the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse from the New Testament is already incredibly overt (right down to the names of the characters)…but since the characters in the episode also ride horses (as do Cowboys, anyway), it just seems a bit of a odd switch.

    #267060
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Isn’t it just a riff on the western ‘Gunmen of the Rio Grande’?

    Similar to how the AR game is a reference to Gunmen from Laredo

    #267061
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    That seems like quite an obscure reference – especially since the UK title of that film is Duel At Rio Bravo.

    #267062
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I only considered fairly recently that my main teenage email address gunmenoftheapocalypse@yahoo might have looked a bit dodgy or incredibly edgy to the majority of people who didn’t know the names of Red Dwarf episodes off by heart.

    #267063
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Gunmen of the Apocalypse better be a reference to Gunmen of the Rio Grande, or I’m afraid I’m going to have to petition for its Emmy to be retracted on the basis of bad titling.

    #267064

    What would a good alternative title for Gunmen be?

    Dove Program

    Ten to Death

    YeeHaa

    #267065
    Warbodog
    Participant

    It would have been called High Midnight (and been a lot darker) if the night shoot hadn’t proven impractical. Trivia that everyone probably knows, there.

    #267066
    Dave
    Participant

    What would a good alternative title for Gunmen be?

    Dove Program
    Ten to Death
    YeeHaa

    Best Western

    CowBoys From The Dwarf

    Yeeh-AR

    The Smeg, The Bad And The Ugly

    #267067
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    The One Where Everyone’s Inside Kryten

    #267068
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Do Androids Dream of Electric Cowboys?

    #267069
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    What would a good alternative title for Gunmen be?

    Krytie TV

    #267074
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    A Diskful of Dollars

    #267075
    Unrumble
    Participant

    Butch Accountant & the Yuppie Kid

    #267077
    Ridley
    Participant

    Android Get Your Gun

    #267080

    Horsemen of the Apocalypse, only the horsemen have guns. Gunmen of the Apocalypse. It’s a fairly rudimentary but simple to understand bit of wordplay, surely?

    #267081
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    But as they have both horses and guns in the episode, the title should really be Gunhorsemen of the Apocalypse.

    #267089
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Horsemen of the Apocalypse, only the horsemen have guns. Gunmen of the Apocalypse. It’s a fairly rudimentary but simple to understand bit of wordplay, surely?

    Um, yes. That was my point. Why is the wordplay there, when the characters are horsemen (cowboys)? It’s not really wordplay if you’re swapping something that’s already relevant for something else.

    Put it this way; it’s like the fucking stupid Doctor Who title “Spyfall”. Spyfall is clearly a pun of Skyfall, which is a Bond movie, so it implies the story is about spies to anyone who has seen “Skyfall”.

    But when you’re also changing the first bit of the word to “spy”, it’s like being hit over the head with the pun.

    #267098

    Because the horsemen of the apocalypse aren’t, traditionally, cowboys. Nor do they carry guns. And Gunmen of the Apocalypse, with its little bit of wordplay, makes a more interesting title than Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which is unimaginative and generic.

    #267121
    Bosco13
    Participant

    I figured it was just meant to sound cool rather than make sense

    #267122
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Because the horsemen of the apocalypse aren’t, traditionally, cowboys. Nor do they carry guns.

    But cowboys are, traditionally, “horsemen”.

    makes a more interesting title than Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which is unimaginative and generic.

    What, like “Legion”, which is another biblical reference (and was originally titled “Call Me Legion”)? Surely the interesting thing about titles are letting people have preconceptions about what the stories could entail, and then surprising them by taking a core idea and giving it a sci-fi spin?

    #267123
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Titles don’t have to be a riddle wrapped in an enigma, sometimes it’s okay for them to be a bit simpler.

    Though for that matter I don’t think either Gunmen or Legion are boring/unimaginative titles

    #267124
    pi r squared
    Participant

    What, like “Legion”, which is another biblical reference (and was originally titled “Call Me Legion”)? Surely the interesting thing about titles are letting people have preconceptions about what the stories could entail, and then surprising them by taking a core idea and giving it a sci-fi spin?

    With the added knowledge of how the episode pans out, “Legion” is obviously a biblical reference, but I’m not sure that would be anyone’s first go-to assumption based on title alone. “<…>men of the Apocalypse” clearly is a more overt reference.

    I have never really seen the term “horsemen” used in any other context than the “of the Apocalypse” one, but surely at best we would say that cowboys (with guns) are a subset of horsemen – a horseman does not automatically imply guns, and the more overt reference clearly does not suggest guns either, so I don’t think the “gunmen” wordplay is bashing its audience over the head in the way you think it is.

    #267125
    Dave
    Participant

    Arguably Gunmen Of The Apocalypse would have been a more apt title for Tikka To Ride.

    #267126

    And Tikka to Ride would have been more apt for the deleted ending to DNA when Lister fucks the curry monster …

    Oh wait, wrong thread.

    #267127
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Arguably Gunmen Of The Apocalypse would have been a more apt title for Tikka To Ride.

    For a second there you got me excited that we might have a fresh candidate for the “Interchangeable Episode Titles” thread, but then I checked and found that it had already been posted.

    You’re a quick one, Dave, but Dave-of-9-months-ago was quicker.

    Interchangeable Episode Titles

    #267128
    Dave
    Participant

    You’re a quick one, Dave, but Dave-of-9-months-ago was quicker.

    Um Bongo

    #267258
    Welding Mallet
    Participant

    Series V is probably the most accomplished of them all (please don’t hit me), but I do get annoyed at the level of Kryten’s exposition skills. In the very same series where it is confirmed to us that he’s a lavatory attendant he somehow knows what a Psi-Moon is.

    Just makes the overlooking of Hattie Holly all the more sad…

    #267259
    Dave
    Participant

    In the very same series where it is confirmed to us that he’s a lavatory attendant he somehow knows what a Psi-Moon is.

    I think this is intentional though. Kryten thinks of himself as being only a lowly mechanoid but he’s clearly picked up a lot of knowledge over the years and is a lot smarter and more capable than he gives himself credit for.

    It’s Snacky Syndrome.

    #267260

    In the very same series where it is confirmed to us that he’s a lavatory attendant he somehow knows what a Psi-Moon is.

    I think this is intentional though. Kryten thinks of himself as being only a lowly mechanoid but he’s clearly picked up a lot of knowledge over the years and is a lot smarter and more capable than he gives himself credit for.
    It’s Snacky Syndrome.

    It is perhaps also something that they should have explored more in Krysis. Like, with Butler aboard Starbug, they get in trouble, and only Kryten knows how to save the day as only he has the experience of all the different weird space phenomena having travelled far and wide for years, whilst Butler stayed at home painting.

    #267261
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Series V is probably the most accomplished of them all (please don’t hit me)

    I’ve always had the sense that V was the popular fan favourite, with II being the connoisseur pick. (I’ve never been all that big on II outside of a few episodes).

    #267262
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Series V is probably the most accomplished of them all (please don’t hit me)

    I’ve always had the sense that V was the popular fan favourite, with II being the connoisseur pick. (I’ve never been all that big on II outside of a few episodes).

    If I was in a “gun to the head” type situation and was forced to make a choice for best series then I would probably plump for V. It’s the most consistent for me – as well as having some of the shows highest highs it is also impressive in that it has a real lack of any dips or low points across the episodes. But then for me all of the “bubble” era series of I-VI are incredibly tight.

    In the very same series where it is confirmed to us that he’s a lavatory attendant he somehow knows what a Psi-Moon is.

    I think this is intentional though. Kryten thinks of himself as being only a lowly mechanoid but he’s clearly picked up a lot of knowledge over the years and is a lot smarter and more capable than he gives himself credit for.
    It’s Snacky Syndrome.
    It is perhaps also something that they should have explored more in Krysis. Like, with Butler aboard Starbug, they get in trouble, and only Kryten knows how to save the day as only he has the experience of all the different weird space phenomena having travelled far and wide for years, whilst Butler stayed at home painting.

    Has he done that much travelling though? He spent the best part of 3 million years looking after the dead crew of the Nova 5 – we don’t really learn much about what he got up to before that so it’s hard to believe the Nova 5 did enough exploring for him to have come into contact with all the weird space phenomena he seems to know about.

    Maybe he’s just more curious than the rest of the crew, whilst the likes of Lister and Cat are busy playing Durex volleyball perhaps Kryten is spending his time reading all the logs of the various derelicts they pass?

    #267263
    Dave
    Participant

    perhaps Kryten is spending his time reading all the logs of the various derelicts they pass?

    As long as he didn’t read this one.

    A Big Steaming Log

    #267266
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Anyone else notice a slight similarity with the closing theme and the bridge in Bowie’s Loving the Alien?

    (1:24-ish)

    #267267

    Maybe he’s just more curious than the rest of the crew, whilst the likes of Lister and Cat are busy playing Durex volleyball perhaps Kryten is spending his time reading all the logs of the various derelicts they pass?

    Well, he has travelled with our crew for a few years. That’s more than Butler, and often they are getting into scraps.

    But it’s clear Kryten downloads logs of other ships and studies them. He has a wealth of knowledge about the history of humanity and all the shit that’s happened beyond what Butler could learn sticking to his ship/region of space.

    Kryten has taken it upon himself to learn and become useful scientifically, because he has the processing power to do so with ease.

    #267268
    Jenuall
    Participant

    perhaps Kryten is spending his time reading all the logs of the various derelicts they pass?

    As long as he didn’t read this one.

    He took one look at the authors previous work and just checked out:

    Craig Charles Almanac

    #267269
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Maybe he’s just more curious than the rest of the crew, whilst the likes of Lister and Cat are busy playing Durex volleyball perhaps Kryten is spending his time reading all the logs of the various derelicts they pass?

    Well, he has travelled with our crew for a few years. That’s more than Butler, and often they are getting into scraps.
    But it’s clear Kryten downloads logs of other ships and studies them. He has a wealth of knowledge about the history of humanity and all the shit that’s happened beyond what Butler could learn sticking to his ship/region of space.
    Kryten has taken it upon himself to learn and become useful scientifically, because he has the processing power to do so with ease.

    Do you dabble in reading logs?

    #267270
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Anyone else notice a slight similarity with the closing theme and the bridge in Bowie’s Loving the Alien?

    (1:24-ish)

    Oh, ignore me. This is old news according to google and also this very website.

    #267271
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I had The Log, but not that other beauty. “Utter mayhem!” Excited for the Craig Charles Book Club.

    #267276
    clem
    Participant

    Anyone else notice a slight similarity with the closing theme and the bridge in Bowie’s Loving the Alien?

    (1:24-ish)
    Oh, ignore me. This is old news according to google and also this very website.

    This might be common knowledge too but the Carter the Unstoppable Sex Machine track ‘Surfin’ USM’ begins with a sample from Bodyswap. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yMRVmkMlk6M

    #267277
    Dave
    Participant

    I’d never seen that before. Great!

    #267305
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    An observation of fan perception rather than the show:

    I came across a Twitter thread ranking the episodes in the user’s favoured order. Camille came below Krytie TV, Queeg was below {sobs} Pete and BITR because it was ‘boring’ now they’ve seen it so often! These were the two lowest-ranked eps of the BBC-era, 60 and 51 respectively. Much of series I and II came in the low/middle, most of VII was middling/top third … and number 1 was Siliconia!

    Just blew my mind, to see such a COMPLETELY different perception of the episodes. Absolutely amazing.

    #267306
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    An observation of fan perception rather than the show:

    I came across a Twitter thread ranking the episodes in the user’s favoured order. Camille came below Krytie TV, Queeg was below {sobs} Pete and BITR because it was ‘boring’ now they’ve seen it so often! These were the two lowest-ranked eps of the BBC-era, 60 and 51 respectively. Much of series I and II came in the low/middle, most of VII was middling/top third … and number 1 was Siliconia!
    Just blew my mind, to see such a COMPLETELY different perception of the episodes. Absolutely amazing.

    I sometimes find it hard to wrap my head around the disparate nature of Red Dwarf fan sub groups.

    To me, it’s crazy town to put anything post VI above anything pre VII, but some people care more about the gags than anything, and the broader, more tried and true sitcom comedy style of VIII and Dave Dwarf mean it really appeals to some, but less for the people who liked the sci-fi believability.

    It’s like Lister’s speech in Ouroboros, Red Dwarf fans can never go extinct because as one group dwindles there’s always a new subgroup popping up.

    Teenage girls on Tumblr that want Rimmer and Lister to fuck are the latest generation, which will make for some interesting Dimension Jumps in the future I’m sure.

    There’ll be a group of 10 year olds being prepared by watching their parents DVDs that will eventually dress a bit like Paul Montague and won’t touch anything Red Dwarf that wasn’t filmed in Manchester or something.

    #267307
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I’ll always give a boost to original eras over revivals, whether it’s a TV show, discography or genre copycats, so even if I-VI isn’t mostly objectively best (which it probably is), it’s got the freshness and the classic look, atmosphere and nostalgia going for it that make even the weaker ones a luxuriously indulgent experience. I think my next poll ranking will reflect this actual love more unapologetically than feeling duty bound to rank some good Daves above the likes of Balance of Power – sorry, objectivity fans! We’ll die off one day.

    I once saw a top 10 on YouTube (can’t find it now) that was largely sensible but included Identity Within. They were probably showing off though. But then, I consider the first novel to be the single best Red Dwarf ‘thing,’ which would seem crazy to many (but benefits from the show existing for the imaginary performances). Non-coincidentally, I read it before I’d properly seen anything earlier than VI, so it was my first go around with those stories.

    Nostalgia and early exposure play a big part, but they can be overruled. Series VIII and especially VII should be nostalgic as hell for me, but I find most of them repellant, having problems with them at the time and disowning them before the DVD era (Cassandra’s still good though).

    #267308
    Welding Mallet
    Participant

    Anyone else notice a slight similarity with the closing theme and the bridge in Bowie’s Loving the Alien?

    (1:24-ish)
    Oh, ignore me. This is old news according to google and also this very website.
    This might be common knowledge too but the Carter the Unstoppable Sex Machine track ‘Surfin’ USM’ begins with a sample from Bodyswap. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yMRVmkMlk6M

    Indeed, said clip opens the album itself!

    #267309
    Welding Mallet
    Participant

    An observation of fan perception rather than the show:

    I came across a Twitter thread ranking the episodes in the user’s favoured order. Camille came below Krytie TV, Queeg was below {sobs} Pete and BITR because it was ‘boring’ now they’ve seen it so often! These were the two lowest-ranked eps of the BBC-era, 60 and 51 respectively. Much of series I and II came in the low/middle, most of VII was middling/top third … and number 1 was Siliconia!
    Just blew my mind, to see such a COMPLETELY different perception of the episodes. Absolutely amazing.
    I sometimes find it hard to wrap my head around the disparate nature of Red Dwarf fan sub groups.
    To me, it’s crazy town to put anything post VI above anything pre VII, but some people care more about the gags than anything, and the broader, more tried and true sitcom comedy style of VIII and Dave Dwarf mean it really appeals to some, but less for the people who liked the sci-fi believability.
    It’s like Lister’s speech in Ouroboros, Red Dwarf fans can never go extinct because as one group dwindles there’s always a new subgroup popping up.
    Teenage girls on Tumblr that want Rimmer and Lister to fuck are the latest generation, which will make for some interesting Dimension Jumps in the future I’m sure.
    There’ll be a group of 10 year olds being prepared by watching their parents DVDs that will eventually dress a bit like Paul Montague and won’t touch anything Red Dwarf that wasn’t filmed in Manchester or something.

    This is very true. At my old workplace a colleague who knew that my “homeboys” and I were fans accosted us one day after she caught “that really funny bit when they can’t play basketball because…you know”.
    I don’t think she saw our shared grimaces….

    #267314

    I’ll always give a boost to original eras over revivals, whether it’s a TV show, discography or genre copycats, so even if I-VI isn’t mostly objectively best (which it probably is), it’s got the freshness and the classic look, atmosphere and nostalgia going for it that make even the weaker ones a luxuriously indulgent experience.

    Yeah, I struggle to find <i>anything</i> that comes back from a hiatus – TV, music, book series – that properly recaptures the magic of the original version. Atmosphere is a huge part of my enjoyment of these things, and the look and feel of later Dwarf will always make it feel slightly off for me – I suppose that ties in with my Wafflem’n topic of not being able to enjoy the Dave era because it doesn’t have a slightly grainy video look. There are a handful of Doug solo episodes I’ll be putting in the bubble for the 2023 poll (The Emerald Experiment?), but for the most part even the best Dave stuff really feels more like a nice bonus rather than part of the version of the show I actually love.

    #267315
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I’ll always give a boost to original eras over revivals, whether it’s a TV show, discography or genre copycats, so even if I-VI isn’t mostly objectively best (which it probably is), it’s got the freshness and the classic look, atmosphere and nostalgia going for it that make even the weaker ones a luxuriously indulgent experience. I think my next poll ranking will reflect this actual love more unapologetically than feeling duty bound to rank some good Daves above the likes of Balance of Power – sorry, objectivity fans! We’ll die off one day.

    I once saw a top 10 on YouTube (can’t find it now) that was largely sensible but included Identity Within. They were probably showing off though. But then, I consider the first novel to be the single best Red Dwarf ‘thing,’ which would seem crazy to many (but benefits from the show existing for the imaginary performances). Non-coincidentally, I read it before I’d properly seen anything earlier than VI, so it was my first go around with those stories.
    Nostalgia and early exposure play a big part, but they can be overruled. Series VIII and especially VII should be nostalgic as hell for me, but I find most of them repellant, having problems with them at the time and disowning them before the DVD era (Cassandra’s still good though).

    Yeah I agree actually, IWCD is to me the best of Red Dwarf, and I read it after I’d seen the first six series a million times. It’s all the bits you love from the show expanded on and given more room, and with some great moments that wouldn’t have fit the tone of the show but are fantastic.

    Some high budget CGI adaptation with all the cast doing voices would be heaven.

    I have a bit of nostalgia for VII, because I remember being so excited when I heard about it happening after such a gap, and for the t-shirt with the skeletons on, and Radio Times covers, not so much for the episodes.

    #267316
    Dave
    Participant

    I have a bit of nostalgia for VII, because I remember being so excited when I heard about it happening after such a gap, and for the t-shirt with the skeletons on, and Radio Times covers, not so much for the episodes.

    Same here. I remember sitting down to watch Tikka, hugely excited, and really wanting to love it but immediately knowing it wasn’t quite the show I loved. Then discussing it with friends at school shortly afterwards and realising that everyone had gone through a similar experience with it.

    #267317
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Tikka was good enough that I didn’t have any issues with it at 11, but the next episode being rubbish, overly serious and getting rid of a character (maybe the best one) because the actor presumably couldn’t be bothered any more didn’t go down well.

    I felt spoiled by Red Dwarf Night as a concept in 1998, but felt petulant about it being packaged in a VII vibe and this being what Red Dwarf was now, without the assurance that that era and style were already over (VIII was at least fresh at first).

    #267318
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Tikka is stronger than a lot of what came later in VII but even on the first watch of that episode I knew that the magic was missing.

    It didn’t help that it was the first series I went into with significant preconceptions and fears – I started watching when VI first broadcast, then spent the next few years hoovering up the VHS content available, reading the books, Smegazines etc. so not only did the return have to live up to the level of indulging in that much goodness in a relatively short space of time, but also I was loosely aware of the behind the scenes issues leading up to VII which probably put my viewing experience on the back foot from the get go.

    I very rarely re-watch VII or VIII but I do agree with a sentiment that has been echoed many times which is that the existence of the “solid if not always spectacular” Dave era has allowed my feelings toward those final two BBC series to mellow in recent years. They are no longer the last bits of Dwarf available and the fact that we have subsequently received better episodes means it’s much easier to not hold a grudge against VII and VIII!

    #267319
    Welding Mallet
    Participant

    The 14-year old me was far from the most of discerning TV viewers, but I remember being massively disappointed that when I finally got to see a NEW edition of Red Dwarf on the same day as everybody else it was just a knockabout romp based on an extremely serious event that happened 34 years earlier.

    That has coloured my judgment ever since…and yet I still think it’s the best episode of that series…

    #267320
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Teenage girls on Tumblr that want Rimmer and Lister to fuck are the latest generation, which will make for some interesting Dimension Jumps in the future I’m sure.

    My initial reaction to this was “well, why not? It’s pretty much just the 3 or 4 of them in the crew alone with each other for the whole rest of Lister’s life, and already decades have passed. You’d think they’d try it at least once out of boredom.” but of course for this to be a likely event within the continuity of Red Dwarf, the show would need to actually treat the problem of Lister’s long term loneliness, boredom and probable depression seriously. And it doesn’t, for obvious reasons.

    Anyone actually in Lister’s situation who managed to (via sci-fi plot devices) meet other living humans after coping with so much isolation and such little hope would be overcome with joy. Like broken down and weeping, obsessively following them around and talking to them, refusing to go back to the status quo etc. Yet whenever this happens – Stasis Leak, Parallel Universe, Backwards, Camille, Ouroboros, BACK IN THE RED, Back to Earth, Entangled, Twentica etc. – Lister is pretty darn chill about it, relatively speaking.

    You could argue that the reason he’s chill is because it actually ends up happening quite often, but there’s still large stretches of in-universe time between most of these incidents, and he doesn’t exactly have reason to think these opportunities will keep coming.

    #267321

    I still don’t like Tikka – it’s crammed with really, really awful gags, it almost entirely takes place on 20th century Earth, it destroys Kryten’s character within five minutes, and only exists by completely contradicting its own rules of time travel within the same episode – although I enjoyed some of it at the time. VII never felt quite right as a 12 year old – it was immediately my least favourite series – but I think I actually appreciated the more dramatic elements and the slight world-building elements, as well as finding some of it funny, especially Blue.

    VIII felt really, really off to me on first watch. I wasn’t an even remotely critical viewer of anything before then, but from Chris’s performance in the opening scene I immediately realised this wasn’t right, and although some of the more questionable bits – knob gags and misogyny – appealed more to my 14 year old self than they do now, the series has always felt rough around the edges to me, only moreso over time.

    I think it’s possible to put some of the blame of one’s own criticism on getting to know a show and then new versions not feeling quite as good – the gap between VI and VII meant that it would be seen by a lot of people as ‘new’ Dwarf, rather than stuff that was always around – only I didn’t see IV until 1998, and the first half of V until 2000, and they were immediately better than VII and VIII.

    & I hate VIII as much now as I did in 2008. The existence of nine or ten ‘almost classic’ episodes hasn’t made it seem any better in hindsight.

    #267322
    Warbodog
    Participant

    only I didn’t see IV until 1998, and the first half of V until 2000, and they were immediately better than VII and VIII.

    I won’t have been the only one seeing (most of) I-III for the first time when remastered was broadcast, and Back in the Red aired literally days after Parallel Universe so it wasn’t such a huge deal. It just had the bonuses of being current and not already knowing the plots from the programme guide.

    I enjoyed it uncritically until Pete Part 2, which was so clearly a load of shite in a way that Back in the Red part 3 somehow hadn’t been. I went into the finale not really caring, but then I got to see the rest of unseen III-V on TV and video over the next year, so I wasn’t left hanging on VIII in quite the same way.

    #267331
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Abstract: Red Dwarf’s casual/deliberate retrofuturism is a joke that ages like wine, but it also helped the analogue neanderthals of the past to relate to confusing concepts and makes for a nice catalogue of the development and familiarity with computing since the 1980s. The modern series has seemingly held back in updating these references in keeping with the spirit of the old shows.

    – Set details of 80s-90s computers (Commodore 64, Amiga 2000) and CRT monitors making way for touchscreens, obviously. That’s most sci-fi shows.

    – “Reboot startup disk” and “offline” in The Last Day is the first computer speak I can think of. References to computing in 1991 are more like awkward shout-outs for spods (gosub a program loop, “ASC-2 code”). By 1993 there’s enough general awareness of computer viruses to base a story around it. By the late 90s, files are being accessed and deleted from Kryten’s RAM / hard disk / CPU.*

    – Not sure how much of a joke Kryten’s ticker tape damage control report was supposed to be in 1989. By 1992 we see his on-screen readout. Terminator did it ages before, so doesn’t really mean anything. Maybe I’m thinking of RoboCop.

    – Holly falling in love with a 1980s ZX-81 home computer was obviously supposed to be amusingly anachronistic even at the time, but having mechanoids use calculators and photocopiers as reference points when conversing with each other, maybe for the sake of the audience, gets funnier the more obsolete those become.

    Early series Kryten is a car, because that’s technology we understand:

    – GTI model variant with sunroof head
    – Analogue radio dial / temperature control nipples
    – Thumb cigarette lighter (deleted scene)
    – 523P surname is like an old registration plate (a stretch, but could also explain why they misremembered 2X4B as being three characters later)
    – Even by 2016, his new bodyshell and sound system are a midlife crisis car joke
    – Electric charging socket (ahead of their time)
    – Not sure whether 3000/4000 Series nomenclature is a car thing, but it could come from computers like the contemporary Amiga 1000/2000/4000 line used for on-set keyboards

    – I might just be forgetting, but the modern series has seemingly held back from making too many current internet/technology references, which helps it to stay true to the old spirit and nicely escapist, I don’t want social media jokes. The virus/firewall situation from Mechocracy could have come from the late 90s.

    * Bonus observation: Kryten’s RAM is in his head in Tikka to Ride. They use his head as a battering RAM in White Hole. That’s Babylon 5 level foreshadowing.

    Maybe there’s something in all that.

    #267332
    Hamish
    Participant

    Even by 2016, his new bodyshell and sound system are a midlife crisis car joke

    Kryten is also basically shown to be a car when his battery goes flat in Twentica.

    #267333
    Dave
    Participant

    I always thought Kryten’s display in Terrorform was meant to be decidedly Robocop-esque, as opposed to the very Terminator-esque Hudzen display.

    #267336
    Jenuall
    Participant

    ZX-81 references work because it was a well known UK computer, more specifically it was well known for crashing and often being problematic to load.

    In the late 80s to early 90s even a relatively tech phobic audience would have known enough to get the joke

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