Mundane observation dome

[Warbodog]

Do you have any miscellaneous insights on the series that may be worth contemplating for a few seconds before moving on with our lives? Here are some of mine.

1. The four regulars have names that can work any way around, though this would have been more obvious if David Ross had stayed and wouldn’t work if Chris Barrie used his real name.

2. The series’ lax attitude to continuity extends to the setting. Outside of Holly’s distress calls, I don’t think three million years is mentioned all that much after series I and before VI (not sure about later years). Instead, we get the extremely fudged “dead for centuries” and “travelling for thousands of years” – not actual retcons, but suggesting a more conventional setting for casual viewers tuning in and the sort of stories they’re telling. It’s only millions when they need it to be.

3. 200 years of stasis between series V and VI means that the earlier series took place in their equivalent of the early 19th century by comparison (e.g. Blackadder the Third). Since they didn’t run into a long-lived Camille or one of her great-great-etc grandchildren, it didn’t come up.

4. Although Lister is routinely slagged off in the series, he’s spared the level of seemingly authoritative character assassination that Rimmer gets, because the audience is aligned with Lister’s viewpoint most of the time. For example, we see Kochanski Camille belittling Rimmer’s interests, but we don’t get the equivalent of Hologram Camille reacting to Lister’s pickup lines, we’re left to form our own opinions on those. This flimsy point has not been considered much beyond this single example.

5. Cat’s costumes are overwhelmingly referenced more than anyone else’s in the series, but the least discussed by fans.

6. Ace Rimmer and Duane Dibbley were so seemingly ubiquitous in canon and tie-in merchandise through the 90s (Smegazine strips, T-shirts) that they still feel overused today, even though it’s been over 20 years since they appeared. Maybe they’re allowed back after all.

7. Only series III & V and maybe XI & XII (not as familiar with those) don’t have any sense of an arc whatsoever (though IV’s minor Kryten disobedience arc was already fucked up by episode shuffling). Series III is just about the only series where no episode directly references any previous episode, but it still has the Backwards scrolling text and general references to Rimmer having died and stuff.

8. One of the series’ most famous and quoted scenes – everybody’s dead, Dave – is a straight-up 2001: A Space Odyssey homage and would have been received that way at the time, but doesn’t work like that for most people coming to the episode later on or new viewers who are young or don’t watch old films.

9. Sometimes dismissed as lightweight and gimmicky today, Backwards was designed as an innovative interactive experience to reward extracurricular effort. As well as inviting fans to work out the backwards events and filming logistics, Arthur Smith’s eugolonom is teasingly long and “you scoundrels” is clearly a cleaned-up translation gag even before you’ve heard it. Unfortunately, by the time technology caught up with the intent and the ability to reverse media files properly on home computers became commonplace, Backwards Forwards came out and everyone just cheated with the walkthrough.

Imagine the quality of the musings I left out!

Topic

[Frank Smeghammer]

That has always been my weak spot in Red Dwarf Trivia. That’s why I’m doing my research on IMBD on this latest watch through

I feel like going to IMDb for TV trivia is like going to a creationist for a primer on evolutionary biology. Anyone can post anything without a source but you’re required to provide a source to contest a piece of trivia.

Oh yeah, I only mean in terms of guest stars and who they played. Other pieces of Red Dwarf trivia I’m shit hot on, IMDB can teach me nothing

[Moonlight]

Did you know that the Cat and Duane Dibbley are played by the same actor?

[Frank Smeghammer]

Did you know that the Cat and Duane Dibbley are played by the same actor?

And they say Americans have no humour

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Did you know that the Cat and Duane Dibbley are played by the same actor?

And they say Americans have no humour

She only just found out herself last week 

[Moonlight]

I’ll be funny when I’m not up at 4 AM with leg pain.

[Unrumble]

Did you know that the Cat and Duane Dibbley are played by the same actor?

[Nick R]

[Warbodog]

[Warbodog]

[Starbugger]

It took me a while to notice that Tongue Tied is first heard, instrumentally, in “Better Than Life”.

[Moonlight]

It’s also in Stasis Leak and the actual piece is several minutes long and sounds pretty nice.

[Starbugger]

The 1999 Children in Need sketch that couldn’t really be fit into continuity at the time can now fit into Series “IX”.

[Warbodog]

The 1999 Children in Need sketch that couldn’t really be fit into continuity at the time can now fit into Series “IX”.

Along with that clip from the 1999 BBC comedy promo, which I was never really comfortable calling a series on its own: https://youtu.be/OeBDDENql3Y?feature=shared&t=130

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

And don’t forget the idents and promos recorded for American PBS stations.

[Flap Jack]

When you say ‘Series “IX”‘, are you talking about Back to Earth itself, or the ninth series which was produced within the Back to Earth universe?

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

I’m assuming the latter. Or maybe we’re imagining a hypothetical extended ninth series spanning the ten-year gap between VIII and BTE, which I suppose would also incorporate BTE as part of that.

[Flap Jack]

That’s interesting, as I would have assumed the former, at least for the more 4th wall challenging bits. Because after Lister discovers he’s in a dream but before he decides to wake up, he has time to play around in his role as both fictionalised Lister and fictionalised Craig Charles. There’s no real limit to what he can make happen. This was one of my entries in Fan Theory Corner.

But maybe that’s a better fit for the more blatantly weird stuff like Can’t Smeg, Won’t Smeg and Smeg Ups, rather than these more borderline promotional skits.

[Formica]

Could Can’t Smeg, Won’t Smeg be an AR game?

[Dave]

[Flap Jack]

[Dave]

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

L.O.Fucking.L.

[Dave]

Watching Bodyswap tonight, I noticed for the first time Cat piloting Blue Midget wearing his headset flipped down in a way that doesn’t mess up his hair. Nice detail and looks much better than the less cool way he wears them in VI.

[Flap Jack]

Could Can’t Smeg, Won’t Smeg be an AR game?

To actually answer this question, CSWS makes less sense as an AR game, because at the beginning Ainsley mentions playing a GELF in Emohawk and shows a clip of it. A Can’t Cook, Won’t Cook AR game is one thing, but a Can’t Cook, Won’t Cook AR game where the host tries to convince you that your real life before you entered the game was actually fake and that he was a supporting actor in it seems… a bit more niche.

Although if it was an AR game, Kochanski and Duane were definitely NPCs.

[Starbugger]

When you say ‘Series “IX”‘, are you talking about Back to Earth itself, or the ninth series which was produced within the Back to Earth universe?

I was thinking the latter.

[Dave]

Interesting little Dwarf nugget in this Eddie Izzard interview about how (and why) he apparently died on his arse when doing warm-up for Meltdown.

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/oct/26/eddie-izzard-why-wouldnt-you-take-me-seriously-given-everything-ive-done-in-my-life

[clem]

Been reading the Talkie Toaster interviews on TUA and in this one, the simulant from Justice mentions “the chick with the really calm voice”, just like the Cat does in Skipper. 

[Warbodog]

Interesting little Dwarf nugget in this Eddie Izzard interview about how (and why) he apparently died on his arse when doing warm-up for Meltdown.

“Red Dwarf and another variety show”

[Flap Jack]

Good link, Dave. (Subpar gendering though.) An interesting interview for sure, if a bit thin on Red Dwarf insights.

Minor point, but wasn’t the whole “we’re all female at first in the womb” thing disproven? Regardless Suzy should know better than to make arguments about gender identity that depend on chromosomes and such. That’s playing right into the hands of transphobes. Foetuses don’t really have gender.

[Dave]

(Subpar gendering though.)

I genuinely never know whether the convention is to describe someone historically by the gender they went by at the time or whether to retrospectively apply their current identity. Both approaches have their disadvantages I guess.

Izzard has talked about having a “boy mode” and “girl mode” and switching between the two – being genuinely fluid rather than having one fixed identity – and back then that was boy-mode era “action transvestite” Izzard. So it doesn’t come naturally to me to use she and her pronouns for that historical person, even though I would today for Suzy/Eddie.

Maybe I’m wrong for doing that – if so, it wasn’t out of ignorance or opposition but just a misunderstanding of the conventions. Either way, hopefully no offence was caused, certainly none was meant.

[Dave]

An interesting interview for sure

Getting totally off-topic here, but I’m not sure whether this whole political career is going to work out. Izzard is smart and funny and I’ve always been a fan, but politics doesn’t feel like a good fit, especially when you’re a high-profile figure who’s pretty clearly just trying to get parachuted into any constituency you can get. I’m not sure that’s really going to attract voters, and if it does then it feels like a shame to do that in Brighton where you could potentially split the Green vote.

[Flap Jack]

Maybe I’m wrong for doing that – if so, it wasn’t out of ignorance or opposition but just a misunderstanding of the conventions. Either way, hopefully no offence was caused, certainly none was meant.

I understand the confusion, especially in Izzard’s case as she has been more genderfluid historically (as well as being more permissive about pronouns since coming out as a trans woman) and I wasn’t suggesting there was any malice behind it! But know for the future that always referring to someone using their current preferred name and pronouns – even if you’re talking about the past, before they came out – is definitely the convention. 👍

[Ian Symes]

(Subpar gendering though.)

It’s a tricky one, as they say in the interview that their identity has changed over the years. Back when they were doing RD warmup, they were “based as a cis male”, so I’m not sure it’s inaccurate to say “he” when talking in the past tense. I’d only ever use “she” to refer to her now, but it is complicated when talking about the past. There are several people that I’ve met in life, mostly through work, who have come out as trans and began transitioning after I first met them. Several of those I’ve met both before and after coming out*. It’s hard to override your brain thinking of their previous pronouns and deadnames when you’re recalling conversations that happened when they were using those pronouns and names. For a lot of people it’s fairly clear cut that they were always the gender they are, even if they weren’t yet out. But with Eddie/Suzy it’s not as straightforward as that. And “that” isn’t terribly straightforward in the first place.

* With one person, it was literally a day apart. They were presenting as a man one day, then as a woman the next. It was someone I was fairly friendly with, but when they came in as a woman, she acted like we’d just been introduced for the first time. “Ah Ian, yes I believe you knew [deadname].” An unusual experience for me, but it seemed to help her to make that huge step, so all good.

[International Debris]

I always use a person’s current pronouns, very simply because it avoids any potential offence. Much better to play it safe. 

[Flap Jack]

It’s a tricky one, as they say in the interview that their identity has changed over the years. Back when they were doing RD warmup, they were “based as a cis male”, so I’m not sure it’s inaccurate to say “he” when talking in the past tense. I’d only ever use “she” to refer to her now, but it is complicated when talking about the past.

I honestly don’t think it’s as complex as you make it out. If someone changes their name due to getting married, or becomes most commonly known by a stage name, then it’s pretty normal to describe past events featuring them using their current name (even if it’s less of a faux pas if you don’t). In trans people’s case, the convention is to use their current name and pronouns, regardless of whether they would describe their transition as “I changed gender” or “I realised what my gender actually was”.

E.g. if you say “In June of 1995, she went to Tesco for the last time” that doesn’t imply that the subject was unambiguously a woman when she went to Tesco, just that she most recently was one at the time that the recollection is being made. Anything else is baggage you add yourself.

I think there are contexts where you can justify “at the time” pronouns and names despite the past tense, like if it’s a fictional story and you want the narrative to be in the moment, but as a rule of thumb you shouldn’t do it when talking about the histories of real trans people.

I get that it can be difficult to get it right when you have those events in your personal memory with different names and pronouns attached, but the difficulty of remembering to gender correctly is a separate issue to knowing what the correct way is.

[Ian Symes]

If I had a nickel for every time a Red Dwarf warm up act changed their name at some point after the series wrapped, etc…

[Flap Jack]

And those were the warm up acts who weren’t constantly getting confused for American skateboarding sensations.

[Flap Jack]

Dwarf Fact: Tony Hawks may have been the 5th Dwarfer in Series 1-2 and the 6th Dwarfer in Series III-IV, but Tony Hawk was the 7th Dwarfer in Series VIII.

[Dave]

It’s a tricky one, as they say in the interview that their identity has changed over the years. Back when they were doing RD warmup, they were “based as a cis male”, so I’m not sure it’s inaccurate to say “he” when talking in the past tense. I’d only ever use “she” to refer to her now, but it is complicated when talking about the past.

Yes, exactly this.

I get that it can be difficult to get it right when you have those events in your personal memory with different names and pronouns attached, but the difficulty of remembering to gender correctly is a separate issue to knowing what the correct way is.

This is part of it too, I guess. Izzard kind of exists in my mind as the 90s/very early 2000s version when I was devouring all the VHSs. The Izzard bubble era.

It reminds me a little of (comics writer) Grant Morrison, who I often automatically still refer to as he/him (having only recently started to go by “they”). Morrison is in a similar situation to Izzard, in terms of having been quite open about gender/identity fluidity in past decades, but at a time that predated the current modern conceptions, language and conventions around it. Like I say, eventually Morrison has become known as “they”, but not really as a particularly personal choice – almost as a way of communicating to younger generations, rather than being particularly bothered personally about whether “he” or “they” was used.

I think Izzard is also bridging that generational gap to some extent, using a mix of older concepts (boy mode/girl mode) as well as more modern language to talk about it. 

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

Dwarf Fact: Tony Hawks may have been the 5th Dwarfer in Series 1-2 and the 6th Dwarfer in Series III-IV, but Tony Hawk was the 7th Dwarfer in Series VIII.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Just as an interesting thought experiment based on the last few comments (Tony Hawk notwithstanding) what pronouns should be used for Holly?

[Flap Jack]

Instinctively I’d think either he/him or they/them makes sense when talking about him hollistically (pun intended), but he/him or she/her depending on which actor was playing them, if you’re talking about a particular series or episode.

[Dave]

Instinctively I’d think either he/him or they/them makes sense when talking about him hollistically (pun intended), but he/him or she/her depending on which actor was playing them, if you’re talking about a particular series or episode.

Yeah, this. Same as with Doctor Who really.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Instinctively I’d think either he/him or they/them makes sense when talking about him hollistically (pun intended), but he/him or she/her depending on which actor was playing them, if you’re talking about a particular series or episode.

I know this is all fiction so it is just philosophical, but why not then apply that to people who have genuinely transitioned? If the instinct it’s to refer to Holly as female when discussing events when they presented that way, why not he/him Eddie when referring to her pre-transitioned life?

foe the record I do think you’re right. You use current pronouns for their whole life. But we have a case here that challenges that assumption. 

[loadoftottnumb]

Holly, Kryten, The Cat and Rimmer should all be described as ‘that/it’ because they are just things, pets or pieces of tech. 

Lister should he described as ‘that/it’ because he is gross. 

[Warbodog]

Instinctively I’d think either he/him or they/them makes sense when talking about him hollistically (pun intended)

For a while, I thought the show’s stance was to refer to Hattie’s Holly as male, thanks to the only Hattie scenes I had to go on being out-of-context smeg ups (“I’ve managed to restore his intelligence at the cost of reducing his operational lifespan”).

[Flap Jack]

I know this is all fiction so it is just philosophical, but why not
then apply that to people who have genuinely transitioned? If the
instinct it’s to refer to Holly as female when discussing events when
they presented that way, why not he/him Eddie when referring to her
pre-transitioned life?
foe the record I do think you’re right. You use current pronouns for
their whole life. But we have a case here that challenges that
assumption.

It being fiction is exactly why it’s different. Or rather, it’s part of the reason. The other part is that the transition was achieved via recasting. In real life – or in shows where a character transitions but keeps the same actor (e.g. Elliot Page’s character in Umbrella Academy) – it’s the same person in past and present, so it makes sense to always use the current name and pronouns. For a character like Holly (or The Doctor), they’re the same person in-universe, but out-of-universe they’re literally a different person. The fantasy abstraction of this changes it.

The genderfluidity also interacts with the fictionality in a unique way. Because if a real person had transitioned to female, then transitioned back to male after 7 years, and were still presenting male 23+ years later, you’d reasonably just stick to he/him in all cases. But as Holly is fictional, we know that (A) both Norman and Hattie played Holly as simply being their own gender, with the queerness existing more on a meta level, and (B) Holly could become a woman again at any time, if Red Dwarf is able to return and GNP decides to go back to Hattie.

Although I wouldn’t say it was wrong per se to say, e.g., “In
White Hole, Holly got help from Talkie Toaster to make himself a genius
again”, but it might just be more natural to use she/her a lot of the time.

[RunawayTrain]

Hollie is canonically genderfluid, presenting as male and female at different points in time.

Whereas for many (most?) trans people, the way they ultimately present is as the person they felt they were all along, so referring to them with their current name and pronouns when talking about past events honours that.

So for Hollie specifically, since they present as binary male and female, presumably referring to them with the appropriate pronouns at the tine of the event is fine (and I feel okay saying that since this is a fictional character and not even a human, so nobody gets hurt if it’s accidentally wrong)!

However I don’t know how it works with genderfluid people in real life, whether there’s a general consensus on what’s preferred or if it varies a lot by person.

[Starbugger]

Hollie is canonically genderfluid, presenting as male and female at different points in time.

Whereas for many (most?) trans people, the way they ultimately present is as the person they felt they were all along, so referring to them with their current name and pronouns when talking about past events honours that.

So for Hollie specifically, since they present as binary male and female, presumably referring to them with the appropriate pronouns at the tine of the event is fine (and I feel okay saying that since this is a fictional character and not even a human, so nobody gets hurt if it’s accidentally wrong)!

Making sure to spell it correctly.

[RunawayTrain]

Making sure to spell it correctly.

Aw dang, not just one brain fart there but repeatedly *facepalm*

(Wish I could still edit my previous post because that’s so annoying.  Honestly, why the heck did my brain do that?!)

[Author]

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