Mundane observation dome

[Warbodog]

Do you have any miscellaneous insights on the series that may be worth contemplating for a few seconds before moving on with our lives? Here are some of mine.

1. The four regulars have names that can work any way around, though this would have been more obvious if David Ross had stayed and wouldn’t work if Chris Barrie used his real name.

2. The series’ lax attitude to continuity extends to the setting. Outside of Holly’s distress calls, I don’t think three million years is mentioned all that much after series I and before VI (not sure about later years). Instead, we get the extremely fudged “dead for centuries” and “travelling for thousands of years” – not actual retcons, but suggesting a more conventional setting for casual viewers tuning in and the sort of stories they’re telling. It’s only millions when they need it to be.

3. 200 years of stasis between series V and VI means that the earlier series took place in their equivalent of the early 19th century by comparison (e.g. Blackadder the Third). Since they didn’t run into a long-lived Camille or one of her great-great-etc grandchildren, it didn’t come up.

4. Although Lister is routinely slagged off in the series, he’s spared the level of seemingly authoritative character assassination that Rimmer gets, because the audience is aligned with Lister’s viewpoint most of the time. For example, we see Kochanski Camille belittling Rimmer’s interests, but we don’t get the equivalent of Hologram Camille reacting to Lister’s pickup lines, we’re left to form our own opinions on those. This flimsy point has not been considered much beyond this single example.

5. Cat’s costumes are overwhelmingly referenced more than anyone else’s in the series, but the least discussed by fans.

6. Ace Rimmer and Duane Dibbley were so seemingly ubiquitous in canon and tie-in merchandise through the 90s (Smegazine strips, T-shirts) that they still feel overused today, even though it’s been over 20 years since they appeared. Maybe they’re allowed back after all.

7. Only series III & V and maybe XI & XII (not as familiar with those) don’t have any sense of an arc whatsoever (though IV’s minor Kryten disobedience arc was already fucked up by episode shuffling). Series III is just about the only series where no episode directly references any previous episode, but it still has the Backwards scrolling text and general references to Rimmer having died and stuff.

8. One of the series’ most famous and quoted scenes – everybody’s dead, Dave – is a straight-up 2001: A Space Odyssey homage and would have been received that way at the time, but doesn’t work like that for most people coming to the episode later on or new viewers who are young or don’t watch old films.

9. Sometimes dismissed as lightweight and gimmicky today, Backwards was designed as an innovative interactive experience to reward extracurricular effort. As well as inviting fans to work out the backwards events and filming logistics, Arthur Smith’s eugolonom is teasingly long and “you scoundrels” is clearly a cleaned-up translation gag even before you’ve heard it. Unfortunately, by the time technology caught up with the intent and the ability to reverse media files properly on home computers became commonplace, Backwards Forwards came out and everyone just cheated with the walkthrough.

Imagine the quality of the musings I left out!

Topic

[Technopeasant]

I didn’t know that was an accidental headcanon all these years and expected to be supported (even wrongly) by the Tongue Tied wiki or something. My defense is that about 95% of my viewings of that episode were when I was under 13.

In fairness, it’s not like I can think of anything that makes it untrue.

although I think it might only be in the Xtended version that we learn his name

Pretty sure this is in the broadcast version:

[Warbodog]

There’s also Frank Todhunter and Frank Hollister, and I literally only just realised they have the same name.

And Hollister is Holly + Lister. How many drafts of The End over the years and they didn’t notice? Maybe that’s why it was changed in the novel.

[Dave]

Pretty sure this is in the broadcast version:

In the original edit “it’s Eric” is omitted, as there isn’t the earlier mention of his name to pay off.

[Moonlight]

Somebody teach Clem how to embed a video.

[clem]

I swear it used to just happen. 

[Rushy]

Maybe that’s why it was changed in the novel.

I suspect they wanted to appeal more to American producers with the ‘woman named Kirk’ joke, but maybe were told not to gamble with copyright issues, hence the change to Tau for the US pilot. 

(Hollister/Holly + Lister may have been pointed out also)

[Flap Jack]

Do we learn Captains Kirk and Tau’s forenames? As far as I’m concerned every Red Dwarf character is Frank until proven not Frank.

[Nick R]

Francine Kirk.

[clem]

But really she’s just Denise the Donut Girl.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Is Dennis meant to be his real name?

If so, when he faked his way to being captain did he just take his first officers first name because he is really unimaginative?

Presumably Hollister isn’t really his surname either.  Maybe he portmanteaued Holly and Lister thinking he was being clever. 

[Warbodog]

Good one, Quinn.

[Technopeasant]

[clem]

Is Dennis meant to be his real name?

Maybe Dennis the Donut Boy was like Lard Lad in The Simpsons, and Hollister used to get work making public appearances as the character before he somehow finagled his way to the position of Captain of Red Dwarf. So more like Duffman in a way, or Ronald McDonald. And the chicken costume in Stasis Leak could be another costume from his mascot past. 

[Flap Jack]

I assume that Dennis murdered and stole the identity of the real Frank Hollister.

[Rushy]

Well, of course he did, he used to work for the Joker 

[Dave]

I always remember this anecdote of Mac’s from the set of Batman ’89.

“I’ll tell you a good one. On Batman, I played one of the Joker’s goons. And Tim Burton said, “This is going to be so far out, Mac. You’re going to have such a brilliant time – because Jack loves to improvise and he’s gonna love you.”
So on the first day of filming they said, “Come on up, we’ll introduce you to Jack.” So I went up with these two other speaking goons. On the soundstage were something like 40 goons – stunt goons, background goons, stand in goons, goon goons – so we were just part of this general morass of goons. And Jack came out and surveyed the goons, like a general surveying his troops – and that was it.
So I thought, “Well, there must be some way to turn this to my advantage.” And in-between set-ups for one scene and another, I saw that he was sitting about 10 feet away from me – on his own. So I went over to him, he was all dressed-up in his Joker gear, and I said, “Hi Jack, I’m Mac and I’m gonna be gooning for you for the next six weeks.” And he kind of, very minimally, raised his eyes, just kind of clocked my face, and then looked down again and went, “Goon on, Mac.” And he never spoke to me again.

Unfortunately the modern meaning of “gooning” does ruin this somewhat. 

[Jenuall]

I assume that Dennis murdered and stole the identity of the real Frank Hollister.

[series 8] By the look of him he murdered and ate the real Frank Hollister. [/series 8]

[Dave]

I assume that Dennis murdered and stole the identity of the real Frank Hollister.

[series 8] By the look of him he murdered and ate the real Frank Hollister. [/series 8]

[Series 8 Holly] Because he’s fat. [/Series 8 Holly]

[Rushy]

“Anyone up for a game of charades using just your tummy, or is this a bad time?” 

[Technopeasant]

Is Dennis meant to be his real name?
If so, when he faked his way to being captain did he just take his first officers first name because he is really unimaginative?
Presumably Hollister isn’t really his surname either.  Maybe he portmanteaued Holly and Lister thinking he was being clever. 

[Android 72264Y]

Fun Fact: My dad calls Hollister ‘Big Mac’ and joked he ate Frankenstein.

[Ben Saunders]

Goon on, Mac.

[Ben Saunders]

[Moonlight]

God, every time I see Rimmer’s outfit from BtE it reminds me how much I prefer that material to what they use from X onwards. I don’t like the belt on the BtE tunic but it’s otherwise my favorite Rimmer costume.

[Podey]

It’ll always be the VI and VII Rimmer for me but that’s just because it’s the era that’s most wedged in my young memories of the show.

[Ben Saunders]

Pretty much all his looks are good, really. I’m fond of his dressing gown.

[Warbodog]

Original costume, then the green one. The red one doesn’t agree with my eyes, the padded ones were a bit much, the blue looks a bit clinical.

[Dave]

I’m going to be a hipster and say either the Holoship outfit or the white admiral-style costume.

(But really it’s series III green with the hat.)

[Podey]

For some reason the hat always felt like it didn’t fit the show for me but it is a striking design.

What’s our headcanon explanation for Rimmer’s changing uniform given we’ve never seen regular crew wearing his later versions? Are they of his own design? 

[Dave]

Different universe.

[Dave]

But no, I assume they’re meant to be a standard design as he doesn’t bat an eyelid at Camille wearing the same outfit and in Holoship the hologram interviewees wear them too. Katerina also has a version in BTE.

[Moonlight]

New headcanon: holograms were always supposed to wear those uniforms but Rimmer doesn’t at first because he doesn’t like being a hologram.

McIntyre just forgot.

[Rushy]

What’s our headcanon explanation for Rimmer’s changing uniform given we’ve never seen regular crew wearing his later versions? Are they of his own design? 

The JMC presumably continued to exist for a long time after Lister entered stasis. The newer uniforms are 24th-25th-26th century designs. Maybe 27th or 28th. Possibly 29th. But don’t hold me to it. 

[Rushy]

Anyway, the original Rimmer outfit is by far the best. 

[Jenuall]

All of his looks are good, favourites for me are the III-IV green tunic and the hard light blue from VI. Although I must stress that this is a love for the version in VI only, and not the shit changed version for VII where they decided to make the trim black which ruins the overall look.

Series VI – beautiful wonder outfit of joy.

Series VII – garbage outfit, not fit for latrine duty

[Flap Jack]

The JMC presumably continued to exist for a long time after Lister
entered stasis. The newer uniforms are 24th-25th-26th century designs.
Maybe 27th or 28th. Possibly 29th. But don’t hold me to it. 

If we’re to believe that Holly started heading out of the solar system as soon as the radiation leak happened, then it wouldn’t make sense for Red Dwarf to keep receiving updates that added new hologram uniforms centuries later. Generally things are delivered to the ship in an analogue fashion, like the post pod. M-Corp was technically remote but they still needed to be close enough to their space station.

So for my money these are actually older uniforms that were still in the file system, and Holly let Rimmer use them, because why not at this point.

[Rushy]

If we’re to believe that Holly started heading out of the solar system as soon as the radiation leak happened, then it wouldn’t make sense for Red Dwarf to keep receiving updates that added new hologram uniforms centuries later. Generally things are delivered to the ship in an analogue fashion, like the post pod.

The show never makes it clear how far humanity had developed, though. Interstellar travel is mentioned in The End. In Epideme, Lister finds a former Red Dwarf crewmember in suspended animation, clearly nowhere near Earth. So it’s not like contact with humanity would have necessarily been lost after Red Dwarf left. 

Alternatively, it’s possible that the ship came across some sort of station or planet that had records of the JMC past Lister and Rimmer’s time. 

[Podey]

All of his looks are good, favourites for me are the III-IV green tunic and the hard light blue from VI. Although I must stress that this is a love for the version in VI only, and not the shit changed version for VII where they decided to make the trim black which ruins the overall look.

Series VI – beautiful wonder outfit of joy.

Series VII – garbage outfit, not fit for latrine duty

Black trim all the way!

I didn’t realise how many unpopular Red Dwarf opinions I had until I joined this forum. 😅

[Cardinal_Hordriss]

I didn’t know where to put this but is there a consensus among fans as to the crew size? As you may have noticed, in the short time I’ve been here, life aboard the Red Dwarf prior to the accident really interests me and the crew size has always presented several issues.

The 3 figures I’ve seen, not including the Tank are – 

169

1169

11,169

The ship is so big that a crew of 169 would rarely even see one another. Given how long a lift journey can be if you worked on the bottom deck, and the captain asked to see you, you’d be well within your rights to tell him to smeg off.

Similarly 1,169 would make for a sparcely populated ship. For some context, a Galaxy Class starship has a crew of about 1100, it is 641 meters long, 473 meters wide and has 42 decks. In this image you can see the entire crew stood on the hull. Even though the Galaxy Class is far smaller than the Red Dwarf, with a similar crew size, you could still go a day without seeing anyone with a crew of that size.

The figure of 11,169 still seems small for such a vast ship but far more believable than 169. Even with automation and Skutters, if vast portions of the ship are unpopulated and a problem arrises in an unpopulated area, it could be hours before a crewmember could get to it, raising serious safety concerns. Also, we see moderately sized groups of crewmembers socialising together which would imply those people all live and work within an hour or so of the recreation area – is can’t imagine people taking a six hour or longer round trip in a lift for a single night in a fairly mediocre night club for example.

The ship’s social/recreational facilities also hint at a larger crew – would 169 people need a shopping mall or more than one cinema screen for instance. 

[Nick R]

In Future Echoes, Lister gives his ID code as “RD52169”.

“RD” is for the ship name. “169” is for the number of crew members. And “52” is for the number of episodes required for US syndication.

[Podey]

How many does ‘Infinity Welcomes…’ claim? That’s always my go to as “most fully realised iteration of the universe”. 

169 is a laughably small number but you have to remember the population was much less in the 80s. So it’s probably like inflation with money in a weird way… 169 was probably like 6,000 in “old money”. 

[Warbodog]

Rob and Doug liked humorous extremes, it’s why Lister wasn’t frozen for 3,000 years. 1,169 was a course correction along with the Kochanski relationship that I don’t think has been contradicted since, so probably still applies. 11,169 was just in the books, which have their own inter-continuity issues.

An even less consistent issue is their point of origin, which seemed to settle on 22nd century with Ouroboros but went back to 23rd in Timewave.

[Ben Saunders]

Have you seen how few people they have working in shops and such these days? The checkouts are never manned, you always have to use self-checkout. By the 23rd century I can see them trying to get away with manning a 5-mile spaceship with only 169 crew.

[Rushy]

I imagine the crew mostly stayed on the decks that they were using to live and work, whereas most of the ship was taken up by the food supplies, the engines (“diesel decks”), the storage of ore, the Starbugs etc. 

[Jenuall]

Yeah my headcanon has always been that the ship is massive but the parts where people primarily exist day to day are a very small percentage of it. It makes sense that most functions of the ship – command, navigation etc. would be contained in a small area, and thus likewise habitation and recreation type spaces would be located nearby as well. For the most part the more remote parts would be managed by Holly and/or the Skutters where required and actual crew travelling to these would be for out of the ordinary circumstances rather than routine.

This doesn’t explain why there was a stasis booth on such a remote floor from them, but I’m choosing to put that down to bad planning!

[Rushy]

This doesn’t explain why there was a stasis booth on such a remote floor from them, but I’m choosing to put that down to bad planning!

Might be for toxic waste/unstable material. 

[International Debris]

Yes, 11,169 is still the population of a village, which isn’t much for a ship the size of a city. Even given the size of the cargo decks and shuttle bays, diesel decks (very useful for the hydrogen powered ship) and so on, it’s still remarkably low. But yeah, I tend to think of it being laid out a bit like an actual city, so you have industrial areas where all the work’s done that are a short commute from the habitation and commercial sectors, and the admin and piloting all happens elsewhere too. Plus the JMC clearly contracted out to all sorts of other companies, hence having science decks, a prison, etc. The Tank must have taken up a good chunk of the ship on its own.

169 is laughably small given how busy the ship seems in the few pre-accident bits we get. There are more people than that living on my street.

[Rushy]

I wonder what’s going on in the Tank nowadays. The prisoners have probably gone all Lord of the Flies by now. 

[Technopeasant]

I’m going to be a hipster and say either the Holoship outfit or the white admiral-style costume.

I read that as Holowhip outfit…

As for the the notion of unpopulated regions, that does seem to tie in with the cargo area Lister goes to after the Cat in Waiting for God that was beyond Holly’s supervision field.

My favorite interpretation was that 169 only referred to registered crew.

[Hamish]

Yes, 11,169 is still the population of a village, which isn’t much for a ship the size of a city … 169 is laughably small given how busy the ship seems in the few pre-accident bits we get. There are more people than that living on my street.

As a rural Canadian you are filling me with a deep sense of existential dread here.

[Author]

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