Red Dwarf’s inclusion in “greatest ever TV series” polls and listicles

[Nick R]

Empire did a readers’ poll of The 100 Best TV Shows Of All Time, and Red Dwarf made it on there:

https://www.empireonline.com/tv/features/best-tv-shows/

This news on its own isn’t really worth making a new topic about. So let’s expand the scope: if you know of any other publications that have done lists of the greatest sitcoms/comedies/TV programmes/sci-fi series that featured Red Dwarf, post about it here.

Or, if you can’t think of any, you can – if you must – use this as a place to complain about what did and did not make it onto Empire’s list, and in what order.

[Moonlight]

Ranking The Simpsons under Friends should count as a war crime.

[Warbodog]

“We left no stone unturned, no show unwatched. Well, apart from anime, eww.”

[Warbodog]

It would be a waste of precious time and energy to argue about this. Nevertheless, I shall attempt it.

– Jonathan Creek > Sherlock

– Inside No. 9 > Black Mirror

– The Day Today > The Thick of It

– With cult fave Father Ted only scraping 99th, I guess we couldn’t really expect the League of Gentlemen, One Foot in the Grave, TMWRNJ.

– Community seems surprisingly forgotten though, or it was more niche than I thought.

– Mr. Show, Gen X comedy fans? No, we love Friends.

– Neon Genesis Evangelion, at least, racists.

– No appreciation for the better kids’ shows we watched growing up? No, The OA occupies more space in my mind.

– We’re only including scripted TV? Not things like Louis Theroux documentaries, Taskmaster, Knightmare?

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

To be fair The OA is bloody fantastic and absolutely is top 10 for me. It was cruelly robbed from us.

I am surprised by Community’s exclusion, especially when Rick and Morty is in there.

[Formica]

– Glad to see BoJack Horseman making lists, but it always deserves higher.

“We left no stone unturned, no show unwatched. Well, apart from anime, eww.”

– Every entry here is English-language, right? (I didn’t read the whole list, only most of it, could’ve missed one.) Surprised to see no mention of Squid Game, but hell, even skipping a few anime as well, Dark and The Rain are both shows that instantly jump into my mind as better than some entries here. I think lists of this sort are always tailored to (or in this case defined by) their audience in a way that makes any old foreign-language show unlikely to show up on the radar. Still gonna loop back to Squid Game, though. That one seems like it absolutely should’ve met the cross-section of popular enough and good enough that people should have voted it in. Never mind, just looked back and seen Broen at No. 86. I have no idea whether this belongs on the list.

– I had a great time watching Succession, so I don’t want anybody to think this comment comes from a place of disliking it. But I’m tired of seeing it revered at the top of every list like this. If it were just for the fact that the show is somewhat shallower than many make it out to be, I could live with that. Happens all the time. But the degree of recognition it received in the face of Better Call Saul‘s many snubs and general lack of attention is ridiculous. We all know by this point that Saul outdid Succession every single year. What’s even stranger is that Succession was even in that category. How was it the best drama when it was, more than anything, a comedy? It’s fucking hilarious. And the plotlines exist in that show to serve the comedy, not the other way around. (It’s also interesting how the opposite is happening with its “comedy” counterpart, The Bear, which is a drama that is sometimes, incidentally, funny.)

– Also, a little tired of seeing Better Call Saul above Breaking Bad. This is clearly an effect of more people watching Bad than any sort of superiority.

– Holy fuck, I need to watch Normal People.

– Is Friends too easy a punching bag? I don’t think Family Guy is remotely deserving of making this list, but it does far moreso than fucking Friends.

– No Darkplace :(

– I haven’t seen it, but I feel like I usually see Firefly on these sorts of lists. Either I’m imagining that or the following for it has really died out of late.

– The Expanse is not better than Dwarf.

[Flap Jack]

Every entry here is English-language, right? (I didn’t read the whole list, only most of it, could’ve missed one.)

You did, they included a sole non-English entry – The Bridge. Still, that’s a pretty huge English language bias, it’s not just anime that wasn’t included.

Overall it seems like a solid list, but the choices are all very conventional. I was expecting to see one or two shows I hadn’t really heard of, but nope. Guess the 100 best ever TV shows also happen to be ones that got due critical recognition at the time, that’s lucky.

Plus the unspoken genre limitations were pretty disappointing. No documentaries, no game shows, no variety/light entertainment, no children’s shows, no panel shows, no chat shows, no reality shows (… OK, maybe that one’s fair), and only one sketch show.

Also, 

– As exciting as it is to beat the likes of Cheers and Father Ted (get fucked, Graham Linehan), Red Dwarf obviously should have been the highest ranked sitcom.

– What the hell is Sherlock doing here? Series 3 and 4 should really have disqualified it.

– Sad not to see Pushing Daisies. Criminally underrated.

– Andor deserved its place, but seeing it in the list just made me annoyed that I have to wait so long to see the next season of Andor.

[Jenuall]

Always nice to see Dwarf get some recognition in list form. Can’t actually recall seeing it in one of these before, although I’m sure I will have down – probably just erased it from memory as it was once again ranked far too low!

Like most of these lists there is a unavoidable US bias, as well as our good old friend recency bias which has come to elevate a number of recent shows which in the fullness of time will hopefully receive a more accurate evaluation.

Specific grievances:

* The Sopranos is not the best show of all time, it just isn’t. Don’t get the continued elevation of this show.

* Friends. Dear god, when will people see through this show?! It’s contemporary Frasier is 10 times the show and should be a long way above it.

* GoT has no place in a top 10.

* Bojack should be WAY higher, comfortably one of the best shows of the last decade and does not get anywhere near the recognition it should.

* No Community, but you’ve got room for Parks and Rec, Scrubs and B99? For shame.

* Too many shows included where, lets be honest, a significant chunk of their output is poor and the remainder doesn’t justify the inflated ranking. Lost is shit for about 75% of it’s runtime. Twin Peaks has almost an entire season, more than a 1/3 of the entire show, that is a dumpster fire. Buffy, lets face it was pretty dire after they left high school. ER shouldn’t have made it out of the 90s. The Walking Dead another one – so many like this that evaluated on their total output just aren’t that impressive. I’ve got much more time for something that tells the story it wants to, does it really well, and the gets out of there – rather than just dragging something out longer than the concept or writers are able to sustain it

[Warbodog]

– I haven’t seen it, but I feel like I usually see Firefly on these sorts of lists. Either I’m imagining that or the following for it has really died out of late.

Maybe since there’s been more non-Trek sci-fi, it stands out less. I love Buffy and enjoyed Angel, but Firefly didn’t do anything for me. It was no Farscape (which deserves to be on the list, but makes a lot more sense not being there).

[Warbodog]

* The Sopranos is not the best show of all time, it just isn’t. Don’t get the continued elevation of this show

I made it as far as the third season before realising it wasn’t going to get more for me. Breaking Bad is the only one of the Big Shows I’d put up there, Better Call Saul was always too uneven with its gang side that didn’t interest me when it wasn’t directly interacting. Granted, I don’t know how they would have filled the whole show without it. Maybe leaned into the comedy more with some other crazy characters.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Firefly missing does feel kinda wrong. But like Community I think it’s only incredibly well received by a smaller number of people 

It’s also an aborted series. Though so was OA and that places top 10 so …

[Formica]

Better Call Saul was always too uneven with its gang side that didn’t interest me when it wasn’t directly interacting

This feels wild to hear for me. The gang drama side of the show was equally important to the lawyering, and usually at least as good if not better.

(I’m also baffled to hear dismissals of The Sopranos. I’m mid-Season 3 and finding it excellent. Not sure whether it deserves #1 status but a high ranking is definitely earned.)

Also – this was from a poll, right? That’s what the article seems to say. I feel like some responses here were written as though this were an edited/curated list.

[Formica]

* Too many shows included where, lets be honest, a significant chunk of their output is poor and the remainder doesn’t justify the inflated ranking. Lost is shit for about 75% of it’s runtime. Twin Peaks has almost an entire season, more than a 1/3 of the entire show, that is a dumpster fire. Buffy, lets face it was pretty dire after they left high school. ER shouldn’t have made it out of the 90s. The Walking Dead another one – so many like this that evaluated on their total output just aren’t that impressive. I’ve got much more time for something that tells the story it wants to, does it really well, and the gets out of there – rather than just dragging something out longer than the concept or writers are able to sustain it

Also – I don’t know that that should be a disqualifying factor. I think with Red Dwarf, we can at least all agree that it was shit for 10% of its run (VIII). Many will tell you 20% (VII as well). There’s plenty who will tell you that more than half – everything past VI – is shit. And some of them will still tell you that Red Dwarf is one of the best/their favorite shows of all time.

I suppose there is a question of: where’s the line? If the best episode of television ever produced was in an otherwise dogshit show, would it be one of the best of all time? What about one that proves itself capable of being great and picks up a large following in one season, then takes a dive? Would several sustained years of quality do it? Does a show’s entire run really have to be taken into consideration to judge whether it’s a “good show”?

[Moonlight]

Considering The Simpsons was fucking excellent for longer than most shows are even on I have no reservations counting it very high.

[Stephen Abootman]

I’ve fired a question to ChatGPT and this is what it has come out with (I have not verified which of these are accurate or not):

Here are a few notable polls and lists where the British sci-fi comedy Red Dwarf has been ranked among the best TV series ever made:

In 2021, Red Dwarf was voted the 17th best British TV show of all time in a Radio Times poll of over 42,000 readers.

A 2020 poll by RadioTimes.com of over 11,000 TV fans placed Red Dwarf at #30 on their list of the 100 greatest British TV shows.

A 2004 Channel 4 poll saw Red Dwarf ranked #10 in their list of the 100 Greatest Comedy Shows.

In a 2009 poll by Digital Spy, Red Dwarf was voted the 9th best British sci-fi or cult TV show ever.

A 1999 poll by the British Film Institute ranked Red Dwarf at #49 on their list of the 100 Greatest TV Programs of the 20th Century.

Red Dwarf also made the British Film Institute’s 2015 list of popular archive-worthy TV programs from 1980-2004.

Google’s ranking system also places Red Dwarf very highly in search results for “best TV series ever” due to its consistent placement in polls and ‘best of’ lists over the decades.

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

Oh sure, let’s all go ask the robot what it thinks.

[Jenuall]

* Too many shows included where, lets be honest, a significant chunk of their output is poor and the remainder doesn’t justify the inflated ranking. Lost is shit for about 75% of it’s runtime. Twin Peaks has almost an entire season, more than a 1/3 of the entire show, that is a dumpster fire. Buffy, lets face it was pretty dire after they left high school. ER shouldn’t have made it out of the 90s. The Walking Dead another one – so many like this that evaluated on their total output just aren’t that impressive. I’ve got much more time for something that tells the story it wants to, does it really well, and the gets out of there – rather than just dragging something out longer than the concept or writers are able to sustain it
Also – I don’t know that that should be a disqualifying factor. I think with Red Dwarf, we can at least all agree that it was shit for 10% of its run (VIII). Many will tell you 20% (VII as well). There’s plenty who will tell you that more than half – everything past VI – is shit. And some of them will still tell you that Red Dwarf is one of the best/their favorite shows of all time.
I suppose there is a question of: where’s the line? If the best episode of television ever produced was in an otherwise dogshit show, would it be one of the best of all time? What about one that proves itself capable of being great and picks up a large following in one season, then takes a dive? Would several sustained years of quality do it? Does a show’s entire run really have to be taken into consideration to judge whether it’s a “good show”?

I think you have to judge it on a case by case basis. Some shows can ride out a poor patch (ala Red Dwarf!) without it irreversibly harming the overall reputation, others I feel like weaker periods cause more debate over whether it was ever that good or deserves to still be held in as high a regard.

I think whether you are a larger serialised story or more “episode of the week” will be a factor. Easier to brush off a poor period in the latter format as it doesn’t leave lasting impacts, but if you’re telling a long form narrative and half of it is shit then I think fundamentally that damages the whole.

[Nick R]

 I think you have to judge it on a case by case basis. Some shows can ride out a poor patch (ala Red Dwarf!) without it irreversibly harming the overall reputation, others I feel like weaker periods cause more debate over whether it was ever that good or deserves to still be held in as high a regard.

I think whether you are a larger serialised story or more “episode of the week” will be a factor. Easier to brush off a poor period in the latter format as it doesn’t leave lasting impacts, but if you’re telling a long form narrative and half of it is shit then I think fundamentally that damages the whole.

I think that even when a very serialised series turns out to conclude in a way that was generally considered disappointing (e.g. Lost, Game of Thrones, BSG, Sherlock, Wandavision), that can be made up for by people’s fondness for the hype and fandom experience surrounding the series when it was broadcast. For some fans, the enjoyment that they get from actually seeing what happens is inseparable from the enjoyment they get from speculating online about what might happen next, writing fanfic, doing episode-by-episode podcasts, etc.

Sometimes, at one extreme, that can lead to fans disowning their fandom completely when the series ends and it turns out their preferred ship didn’t come to pass, or when the Big Secret Plot Twist turns out to be something that the fans had already guessed.

But that sort of fandom activity, and the memories of the experience of originally watching it, can also lead to people thinking back on the series fondly enough overall to vote for it in polls like this.

That, I think, is what has kept things like 24 appearing on these lists: people remember how exciting it was to watch it weekly – or even binge-watching it on DVD – and that is enough to make up for its acknowledged flaws. (Empire mentions the Cougar Bit from season 2, but if you ask me, the Amnesia Bit from season 1 was always a worse plot device.)

[Warbodog]

Cosmos wuz robbd.

[Flap Jack]

I’ve fired a question to ChatGPT and this is what it has come out with (I have not verified which of these are accurate or not):

Asking ChatGPT for facts, that’s a rookie mistake. Like using random.org/clock-times to find out what the current time is.

[Stephen Abootman]

The mistake would be assuming that they’re accurate rather than asking. They could be but I shall leave that to anyone who is inclined to check to actually confirm :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMvFA-Sbxno There’s an actual one though, Britain’s Best Sitcom (2004) – Red Dwarf #18 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

> I think that even when a very serialised series turns out to conclude in a way that was generally considered disappointing (e.g. Lost, Game of Thrones, BSG, Sherlock, Wandavision), 

the fact that I’m in no way disappointed in Lost or BSG (which is news to me anyway) just shows that none of this can really be judged in any objective way at all. What some will consider the best others will hate with a lot in between. 

[Flap Jack]

The mistake would be assuming that they’re accurate rather than asking.
They could be but I shall leave that to anyone who is inclined to check
to actually confirm :)

No, the mistake is definitely asking. Because you could spend the time it takes to fact check just looking up the information yourself, and even if doing that takes longer, you’ll actually have real info when you’re done. It’s only worth doing if you don’t actually want to learn anything.

But let’s entertain the notion and do some fact checking:

– 2021 Radio Times poll of the best British TV show of all time = doesn’t exist.

– 2020 RadioTimes.com poll of the 100 greatest British TV shows = doesn’t exist.

– 2004 Channel 4 “100 Greatest Comedy Shows” programme = doesn’t exist.

– 2009 Digital Spy poll of the best British sci-fi or cult TV shows ever = doesn’t exist.

– 1999 British Film Institute “100 Greatest TV Programs of the 20th Century” list = doesn’t exist. (The “BFI TV 100” from 2000 – note the entirely different name and different year – is a thing, but Red Dwarf was not on that list at all.)

– 2015 British Film Institute list of popular archive-worthy TV programs from 1980-2004 = doesn’t exist.

So yeah, that ChatGPT query yielded literally no pieces of correct information and only succeeded in wasting my time. I’m sure you’ll forgive me if I don’t acknowledge the merit in typing legitimate questions into the Automatic Lying Machine.

[Stephen Abootman]

“Because you could spend the time it takes to fact check just looking up the information yourself”

Nuh. Premise was clearly set out that it was an experiment, not my problem.

[Warbodog]

I thought it was intended as a faux naïf joke in the first place.

[Formica]

Premise was clearly set out that it was an experiment, not my problem.

Typically, in an experiment, you do some analysis/draw conclusions with the data. Instead you made Flap Jack finish writing your lab report for you.

[Stephen Abootman]

‘Made?’ Haha.

[Formica]

Holy shit. You catch a tiny bit of flak for presenting something in a slightly misleading way – and we rightly point out how little effort it would take to actually turn it into a more interesting contribution – and instead of taking it and moving on you start acting out a dick about it.

[RunawayTrain]

The inclusion of Sherlock reminded me that (IMO) Endeavour is better in every way.  But I accept the impact of Sherlock was probably greater; for whatever reasons it found a much larger and … more passionate fandom, than Endeavour seems to have.  Perhaps the timing matters, since a lot of the fandom was on LiveJournal and crossed the pond that way. 

I have no brain left to think about it and any other factors, just felt Endeavour worth a mention *shrug*

[Stephen Abootman]

Holy shit. You catch a tiny bit of flak for presenting something in a slightly misleading way – and we rightly point out how little effort it would take to actually turn it into a more interesting contribution – and instead of taking it and moving on you start acting out a dick about it.

Can you clarify what was misleading about saying where it came from and how it may not be accurate? That would be a more interesting contribution than making stuff up about making people do things.

[Flap Jack]

I mean, yeah, I wasn’t made to do it.

But when you say it was an experiment, you mean a social experiment, right? Hypothesis: if you get ChatGPT to produce some nonsense, and imply that at least some of it might be accurate (“which of these are accurate” suggests at least one must be) yet announce you’re not going to check, then someone will feel compelled to check it for you. Conclusion: yep.

[Dave]

Well, G&T left it pretty late in the day to get all serious about typing Red Dwarf stuff into AI content generators and laughing at what comes out.

[Stephen Abootman]

 and imply that at least some of it might be accurate (“which of these are accurate” suggests at least one must be) 

It would have certainly have been implied less if I’d have said ‘or not’ after that. Oh wait, I did. 

Since this is getting disingenuous, I’ll leave it there to avoid derailing the thread any further.

[Formica]

Well, G&T left it pretty late in the day to get all serious about typing Red Dwarf stuff into AI content generators and laughing at what comes out.

I don’t mind typing some gunk into AI and having a laugh at what comes out. (It wasn’t exactly framed that way.) I also didn’t even mind the original post enough to point out the issues – I was irritated by the smirky “nuh-uh”ishness of the whole response after a pretty reasonable point was made.

[Frank Smeghammer]

Is this an actual G&T fight? Amongst established contributors?

Brutal. Love to see it. And they say this place is cliquey

[Stephen Abootman]

^that made me laugh. OK, now I’m done.

[clem]

https://reddwarf.co.uk/news/2007/07/20/rd-tops-sf-poll/

I remember that one. Not to be sniffed at, especially considering there’d been no new Red Dwarf for so long. And yet ISTR the article on the results had a rather grudging tone, and stressing that Doctor Who would almost certainly have won had it not been excluded from the poll on that assumption. Bizarre. 

[Flap Jack]

Well, whether the point is that ChatGPT is terrible at producing responses that are true or it’s that ChatGPT is terrible at producing responses that are funny, I think we can all agree on one thing: we need new Red Dwarf announced and we need it announced yesterday.

[Dave]

Well, whether the point is that ChatGPT is terrible at producing responses that are true or it’s that ChatGPT is terrible at producing responses that are funny, I think we can all agree on one thing: we need new Red Dwarf announced and we need it announced yesterday.

Just wait until they announce that the next special is an adaptation of ‘Marlon Brando’.

[Ridley]

List seems to lean towards the 21st century.

Lot of stuff I haven’t seen from this side of the millennium.

[Formica]

I’ve fired a question to my phone’s predictive text (prompts underlined) and this is what it has come out with (I have not verified which of these are accurate or not):

Red Dwarf is a good one of the best ones yet.

In 2022, Red Dwarf is a good one for me to be in.

In 2020, a poll right now and I have a lot of the time to get to the end.

A 2004 Channel 4 poll saw the headlino and was in the middle of the first time I was in the middle of the first time.

In a 1999 poll, Red Dwarf is a good one for me to do it for a while.

[Ridley]

I have combined the DNA of the world’s most evil animals to make the most evil creature of them all. It turns out it’s Stephen Abootman!

[Stephen Abootman]

[Technopeasant]

Google to the rescue!

First off, something that actually showed up in my news feed awhile back (and is actually worth reading): https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/the-best-1980s-british-sci-fi-tv-series/

And a slightly less worthwhile one…

https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/star-trek-inspired-sci-fi-tv-shows-movies/

The Radio Times best sci-fi ranking from 2007 was already mentioned here.

Entertainment Weekly MISSED including Red Dwarf in a 2009 listing of cult shows, much to their readership’s dismay: https://ew.com/gallery/17-all-time-great-cult-tv-shows-you-say-we-missed/

Collider was lazy and simply regurgitated rankings from IMDb: https://collider.com/best-british-sci-fi-tv-shows-imdb/

And your usual Screen Rant nonsense:

https://screenrant.com/best-tv-shows-over-eight-seasons-reddit/

https://screenrant.com/science-fiction-tv-shows-set-on-different-planets-not-earth/

https://screenrant.com/live-action-shows-for-rick-and-morty-fans/

https://screenrant.com/british-comedy-best-funniest-underrated-stream-netflix/
https://screenrant.com/best-space-opera-movies-tv-shows-not-star-wars-trek/

[Technopeasant]

“During 2005 SFX surveyed readers’ top 50 British telefantasy shows of all time, and Blake’s 7 was placed at number four behind The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, Red Dwarf and Doctor Who.”

[Warbodog]

“During 2005 SFX surveyed readers’ top 50 British telefantasy shows of all time, and Blake’s 7 was placed at number four behind The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, Red Dwarf and Doctor Who.”

We’re getting closer, now just narrow down the decade. You can do it, Red Dwarf!

[Formica]

[Nick R]

Because if they dictated them they’d just end up as

1. WOOF!
2. WOOF?
3. ARF!
4. BARK.
5. WHINE…
6. GROWL!

[Frank Smeghammer]

You bastard Formica, I’ve been workshopping the best possible version of that pun in my head since the thread opened and you nailed it.

I don’t think I could have done that well so I guess it’s fair game

[Technopeasant]

https://screenrant.com/best-british-sci-fi-shows-of-all-time/

[Author]

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