Russell Two Davies

[Nick R]

Apparently, today there was some news about a change to Doctor Who’s production staff, in some obscure behind-the-scenes role. I don’t know if anyone else heard about it?

Topic

[Ben Saunders]

I love when somebody says “it’s not a bad idea on paper”. Almost nothing is a bad idea on paper. Ideas are the easy part. You have said nothing.

[sleepey]

The presentation of it in the previous episode with the weird metaphorical flashbacks is pretty interesting, but then they have to actually explain it which ends up being a big drag. Also the way it’s designed to *sound* like a big shakeup to the canon while really just kind of hoverhanding it totally limits the impact. So overall it’s a bit wank in a way that makes it hard to defend. But ultimately I do think it’s clear (especially after it gets epilogue’d in Flux & she physically flushes the whole thing down the toilet) that the point of it all is the rejection of that legacy & the refusal to be defined by the circumstances of her birth. Which makes it very annoying how everyone still goes on as if she learned she’s a Palpatine & flew off with her Super Timelord 2 powers & that was the whole storyline.

[Professor Flibble]

I mean, what hasn’t been said about the Timeless Child arc by this point? It totally ruins the Doctor’s sense of mystery, ruins Hartnell’s character arc, makes the world feel smaller, makes the concept of regeneration and the role of the Doctor a gimmick all just to appeal to the same sort of fans who believe the War Chief is the Master, because ooh they’re so quirky and different. 

Extremely, extremely cold take, but the only good thing the show gained from it is Jo Martin’s Doctor, and I still choose to believe she actually has nothing to do with it. Nah, she’s not pre-Hartnell, she’s post-McGann. She’s just another Ninth Doctor. 

[Ben Saunders]

Well it still makes the Doctor much more of a chosen one/important figure than they need to be, even if the show tells you to ignore that. It does what the Cartmel Masterplan was gracefully prevented from doing via cancellation. The Doctor was a boy born into an archaic oligarchical who ran away because he wanted to adventure/was disillusioned/there was something spooky going on, then he had all his character development into becoming a hero as an old man thanks to Ian and moreso Barbara. That’s it. He did not exist before then. The Master was lying. All the extra bullshit is just extra bullshit.

I do appreciate “hoverhanding”, that’s a very good word.

[Ben Saunders]

fans who believe the War Chief is the Master

God, I didn’t watch War Games in Colour, but I heard they used the Saxon theme to imply this. They can fuck off. Not everybody has to actually secretly be somebody we already know. We can have original, one off characters. Stop making the world smaller. Bastards.

[Rushy]

just to appeal to the same sort of fans who believe the War Chief is the Master

I agree with everything you said except this one. 

The Monk is his own character and would severely suffer from being tied to the Master, but the War Chief really is the Master in all but name. He is less interesting if he isn’t the Master because that just makes him seem like a knockoff, regardless of the fact that he came first. 

[Flap Jack]

The War Games in Colour adds a whole new regeneration of Patrick Troughton into Jon Pertwee. In that context I find it hard to be upset by them including a musical nod to a popular fan theory/outright canonical fact (if you go by the novelisations). Like not even confirming it, just referencing it.

Even if you take it as a confirmation, it’s nowhere near as offensive to the character of The Master as getting James Dreyfus to play him.

[Professor Flibble]

The Monk is his own character and would severely suffer from being tied to the Master, but the War Chief really is the Master in all but name. He is less interesting if he isn’t the Master because that just makes him seem like a knockoff, regardless of the fact that he came first. 

But I just don’t get the Mastery vibe from him, you know? He’s always seemed like a totally different character to me with different goals and a different relationship to the Doctor. And I quite like him on his own.

God, I didn’t watch War Games in Colour, but I heard they used the Saxon theme to imply this. They can fuck off. Not everybody has to actually secretly be somebody we already know. We can have original, one off characters. Stop making the world smaller. Bastards.

I liked almost everything else about it, I really like the idea of doing new updated versions of Classic Who stories cause it means there’s always new ways you can enjoy them, and with new effects, you can visually expand them. For instance I loved seeing the alien base from the outside, it really gave the story a sense of place. And the recent Happiness Patrol special edition is the best update to a Classic Who story I’ve ever seen. But especially colourising the 1960s stories, that was one of the things I’d always wanted to see cause it genuinely gives it a new dimension. The Web Planet, The Dominators and The Seeds of Death are on my wishlist, they’d be fantastic in colour.

But aside from the montages to cut the runtime down, the Saxon music was the most egregious thing about it. It’s just “putting the Master’s theme over another character.” It’s like Space Adventure Part 2 playing in Web of Fear over the Yeti.

[Rushy]

But I just don’t get the Mastery vibe from him, you know? He’s always seemed like a totally different character to me with different goals and a different relationship to the Doctor.

It’s cool. What matters is that we both enjoy the actor’s performance and get the most out of it our own way. 

I wish I could enjoy War Games, but cutting it down is antithetical to what I really love about it, which is the way the conspiracy unpeels one layer at a time. It’s a ten-part story, but it’s extraordinarily well paced. I went through the whole thing at once when I was younger. 

I have the same feeling about Ambassadors of Death. A 90-minute version would rob it of the sense of learning more and more about what’s happening as time goes on. Some things you just can’t rush.

The Daleks in Colour was almost great, but ultimately succumbed to over-editing. Not even cutting down, but just over-editing. Flashbacks galore. I did adore the comedic twist on their escape from the city

[Professor Flibble]

I think they actually did a better job with War Games in Colour than Daleks in Colour, but still I think unless you’re trimming it down by just 25%, its always going to feel like a trailer for the story. If they can do 90 minutes, I’d rather they just do entire four part stories. Better for futureproofing too. Then do unedited and cutdown versions. 

Generally I love the Classic format, but I still find that a lot of the longer stories have pacing issues and four parts is generally the best length. That being said, I do think the format and the pacing of Classic Who are very different conversations and I’d love to see the Classic style four (or even six) 25m parts done with modern pacing.

[Ben Saunders]

Daleks in Colour was fucking atrocious, I had to stop watching it during the scene where Ian pretends to be a Dalek because I was starting to get dizzy. The pace is utterly absurd, the whole thing is edited like a teaser trailer but somehow it’s like an hour long. Mark Ayres’ music is abysmal.

[Professor Flibble]

Mark Ayres’ music is abysmal.

Which I was especially disappointed by because I love Mark Ayres’ music in the McCoy era and More Than 30 Years in the TARDIS and all that. 

The War Games is generally a major improvement there, not so much in terms of volume, but most of it is essentially a recreation of Dudley Simpson’s original score.

[Technopeasant]

I think it could have otherwise worked if they made it clear that whoever they were before was NOT The Doctor. They didn’t call themselves “Doctor”, they didn’t have a police box shaped TARDIS, they didn’t dress in quirky outfits, and most importantly they were not a hero.

Could have even called him The Other or something…

[Author]

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