Should I have continued watching Red Dwarf with my partner after VII?

[Ben Paddon]

My partner and I are watching Red Dwarf together – they’d not seen it until I showed it to them, and so far they’ve loved basically all of it. We’re up to the end of VII, they’re convinced Rimmer is gone and never coming back (which, in fairness, is something I cultivated – I even pulled Barrie’s “wild horses” quote). I was excited thinking about how she’d react seeing Rimmer walk into the old bunkroom in “Back in the Red”, forgetting entirely that the first part opens with an extended prison bunkroom scene. Also there’s the opening titles. Fuck. Oh well.

Oddly, though, it’s the Dave stuff that worries me the most. I still love BTE, despite its flaws, but I’m worried about X and XI which even though I enjoy bits of don’t really hold together as strongly for me. X in particular feels much more “broad sitcom” to me, even moreso than VIII, and I think that’s in part down to the way it was shot. It’ll be interesting how they’ll react to BTE-XII considering they aren’t experiencing it with any gaps, or as part of distinct “eras”.

I’ve greatly enjoyed watching 1-VII with them, though. Seeing their reaction to some of my favorite episodes, or jokes, or moments, has made me very happy indeed, especially as previous attempts to get partners on-side with Red Dwarf weren’t particularly successful. They’ve even sent me texts saying “I wish we could be curled up in bed watching Red Dwarf,” which just made me swoon. It’s been 14 years, but I’ve finally found someone who likes watching Red Dwarf with me.

[Ridley]

They say Taiwan Tony is the greatest test of any relationship.

[International Debris]

As long as you’re allowed to make disclaimers throughout it, of the “I know this is terrible, I’m sorry” variety, go for it. My missus gave up after Tikka, although she enjoyed the bits of X she’s seen.

[Ben Saunders]

Fast forward through the opening credits when they’re out the room.

There’s good stuff in every series, particularly XI, I’d say it’s worth a shot.

Also, why would you give up after a fantastic episode like Tikka? Unironically.

[John Hoare]

It’s odd this, because all I want to say is that people have such differing opinions of Dwarf post-VI (and with some it’s post-V), that she should just watch it and make up her own mind.

But that’s REALLY difficult when watching something with someone, because you feed off the other person’s reactions and energy. Which is something I find intriguing, and also not written about nearly enough. So if *you* don’t like a series, she’ll probably automatically enjoy it less anyway, regardless of anything else.

So… yeah. Go and watch My Mother the Car or something instead.

[Ben Paddon]

Fast forward through the opening credits when they’re out the room.

I think they get genuinely excited about the opening titles for a new series, because it gives them a hint of what’s to come.

But that’s REALLY difficult when watching something with someone, because you feed off the other person’s reactions and energy. Which is something I find intriguing, and also not written about nearly enough. So if *you* don’t like a series, she’ll probably automatically enjoy it less anyway, regardless of anything else.

So as an aside, I’ve started doing monthly get-togethers to watch a selected classic Doctor Who serial – most of my friends here in the US haven’t seen the classic stuff, so I’m specially selecting serials I think are worth watching. It’s sort-of become a tradition to watch something beforehand. It started during the first one when a couple of people were running late, so we watched “The Curse of Fatal Dearth”. For the second one we watched… oh, I can’t actually remember. Something. But for the third one someone suggested Red Dwarf, so I had someone pick a number between 1 and 11 to pick a series. Someone called 11, I said, “Oh. Shit.” and we watched “Twentica”, which didn’t go over particularly well. I wonder if that was my fault?

But anyway.

I think part of the problem I face with VIII is that I would preempt basically every episode from 1-VI with “oh, this is a good one,” to which they’d started responding “they’re all good ones” (hooray!). I don’tr want to start apologizing for episodes now we’ve hit the first rich vein of shit, but I think the lack of this-is-a-good-one-ing is probably going to be a bigger tell than anything else.

[Moonlight]

“This is an episode of Red Dwarf.”

[MANI506]

Going by the introcast, the reaction to VII and VIII will be interesting! My wife has watched a couple of episodes with me – she really laughed at Better Than Life and Back To Reality but on the whole it’s treated as background TV which of course makes me die a little inside.

Anyway, please report your partner’s reaction to the newer episodes Ben!

[pi r squared]

Someone called 11, I said, “Oh. Shit.” and we watched “Twentica”, which didn’t go over particularly well. I wonder if that was my fault?

Did you project your own negativity about it while you were watching it? <i>Twentica</i> is a strong RD episode that, aside from the weird coda at the end (and even then it’s not like RD hasn’t done weird codas before), would comfortably have sat amongst the ‘golden 36’. Like any RD episode (including I-VI), if you pick hard enough at it there are reasons to pull it apart, but as an episode to demonstrate the essence of the show it would and should succeed. If it didn’t go down well then the mood and reaction was likely either led by yourself, or chances are your friends simply wouldn’t like RD anyway – there is nothing about that episode that makes it a “bad” representation of the show.

Given that this thread is essentially a proxy for “everything from VIII onwards is shit”, I’m surprised you even gave a choice of all eleven series if you doubt the quality of a third of the episodes.

[Ben Saunders]

Tell them there are no opening credits for Back In The Red I because Doug wanted to avoid spoilers or something.

Twentica is a decent episode but actually ended up being quite low in my XI ranking. The pace of it is INCREDIBLY fast and I think a lot of the jokes work better if you’re more familiar with the show. But that applies to pretty much every good episode – Holoship is a strange thing to start people off with because it too benefits from knowing the characters

[International Debris]

Also, why would you give up after a fantastic episode like Tikka? Unironically.

It’s probably been about ten days since I last explained why I think Tikka is a fucking terrible episode and an example of everything that’s wrong about VII, so I shan’t bite. But my girlfriend found the more action-based approach and recurring gags of VI difficult, and only watched Tikka for the cliffhanger resolution (of all the things). She was aware one of the writers left at some point, and assumed it was after V, so far was the quality drop for VI in her mind.

[Hamish]

I have to say that my own enthusiasm for XI dipped after seeing Twentica, only to be lifted again somewhat when Samsara aired the following week.

Please, don’t hit me.

[Ben Paddon]

Did you project your own negativity about it while you were watching it?

Assuming everybody heard me say “Oh, shit,” it is entirely possible.

[Ben Saunders]

When I was young VI was my favourite by a country mile. Now I’m aware of its flaws (running gags, thing on characterisation), but I still think its pretty fantastic. I’ll never accept anything less for Tikka than it being the best episode of VII, though. VII always felt a bit slow, but enjoyable, and my VIII video only went up to Cassandra so I thought it was a fairly decent series, lol.

RE: Running gags, I love the space corps directives, but I hate the Cat saying “we’re deader than x”, except for “we’re deader than tank tops”, which is one of the funniest and most memorable lines ever to me. Over time I forgot there were even any other examples of that “deader than x” gag, and only noticed them on a recent rewatch, when they annoyed me, purely for not being as good as tank tops.

[Ben Paddon]

VI is when I first became aware of Red Dwarf – my earliest memory of the show is “Change of plan! LEEEEGGG IIIIITTT!!!” – so I have a soft spot for it, warts and all.

[Hamish]

I had both IV and VI on VHS tape – but VI was definitely my favourite as a kid. Every time I saw Gunmen I would put on my cowboy boots.

The rest of the show I saw from scattered television recordings and library VHS tapes, including one from when Showcase was showing VII and VIII in Canada that only went up to Cassandra much like the one Ben Saunders had, which does definitely improve your view of the series as a whole.

Which may also be why I am still willing to defend the Blue Midget dance to this day.

[Dave]

Series VI is unequivocally my absolute favourite.

I watched all of Dwarf with my then-not-wife-yet even Can’t Smeg Won’t Smeg. She enjoyed Tikka, Duct Soup, Back In The Red, Cassandra and BTE, but even in episodes she didn’t amaze and astound her there were gags that she really loved. Parts of The Rimmer Experience and the Cat’s ‘Rock, rock, rock’ gag spring to mind.

[John Hoare]

My favourite joke in VII:

“Definitely hypnotic, but not in the right way.”

[Ben Saunders]

Glad to see another sixer. Tikka and the Rimmer munchkin song are bona fide classic Dwarf to me. I also remember quite enjoying Back in the Red.

>Which may also be why I am still willing to defend the Blue Midget dance to this day.
“It was a dream sequence!”

[Seb Patrick]

It will never stop baffling me that there are people who consider VI in the weaker end of Red Dwarf.

[Ben Paddon]

I think VI might be my partner’s favorite run of the show so far. I’m largely guessing, though.

Incidentally, there have been a couple of times where they’ve said, “I feel like something has been cut out here,” and their instinct is usually right on the money. Just from one viewing, they accurately guessed that “Holoship” was cut down from a longer edit. I’d mentioned that someone was working on an “xtended” edit a while back – I think John was working on it, unless I’m mistaken – but it was never finished.

[si]

I always consider the stuff after I became a big fan as being ‘new’. 1992 was when I became a true RD fanatic. V had been broadcast, and IV has just been repeated. Then I started buying the Smegazine and all was good. So when it started reporting that there was going to be a sixth series, and we started getting the snippets of info and BTS stuff that we take for granted on teh interwebs these days, it was all new…and that’s why anything from RDVI is ‘new’ for me.

Anyway. As you were.

[International Debris]

For a long time I thought I was alone in not enjoying VI as much as the first five. Don’t get me wrong, it’s still in a whole different league to VII, VIII and BtE and a step above X and XI, but it’s just a bit too wacky adventures, action-based for me. It’s telling that my favourite episode from the series, by far, is Out of Time, which has no guest sets or guest actors and thus more focus on character comedy.

[flanl3]

I mean, to be fair, there are some less-high-quality episodes in VI, for example, there is perhaps just a chance that I could maybe be alluding to Emohawk.

[Hamish]

>Which may also be why I am still willing to defend the Blue Midget dance to this day.
“It was a dream sequence!”

Actually if you really want to know:
1. It is about the only thing they did to justify the use of CGI.
2. It is about the only thing they gave the Cat to do in the entire season.
3. The whole “Reality sucks!” bit is actually hilarious when you are eight.

I still also rather like the Cat’s pulse and heartbeat gag, for the record. See #2.

[(deleted)]

I love that Cat’s pulse joke. Mac sells it.

[Ben Saunders]

Why would you not like the cat pulse joke? Why would you not like VI?

Why doesn’t everyone just like what I like? Weirdos.

[pi r squared]

3. The whole “Reality sucks!” bit is actually hilarious when you are eight.

Apropos of barely anything, but I was touched by the way the cast (Robert in particular, I think) responded in the commentary for that episode when they discovered that Jeillo Edwards had passed away. And while I wouldn’t claim “reality sucks” is the best joke ever, Jeillo’s infectious laugh about it did make it a bit funnier.

[JamesTC]

“One second Mr Sucks” is superb and I won’t hear anything to the contrary.

[International Debris]

“One second Mr. Sucks” is a fantastic line, and she totally sells the part.

[International Debris]

The Cat having a funky heart beat and colour co-ordinated organs fucked me off when I was 14, though, and I hate it even more now.

[Ben Paddon]

We watched all three parts of “Back in the Red” – two last night, one this morning. They liked the Blue Midget dance.

[Moonlight]

“It was a dream sequence!”

I’m really perplexed by how often I see people argue this as if it logically justifies the Blue Midget Dance. And I never see anyone point out the obvious counter argument:

The whole AR simulation is _not_ a dream sequence where random things can just happen. It’s explicitly a simulation designed to mimic reality and show how the crew of the Starbug would behave if given the opportunity to escape, as evidence to either corroborate or disprove their story.

Why then, would that that involve anything so completely divorced from reality as the Blue Midget dance? Suddenly Cat does a literal dance number with the shuttle craft? Why that instead something more along the lines of another convenient coincidence to assist their escape, like finding a Blue Midget left running? Wouldn’t that fit the pattern of earlier events without compromising the reality of the simulation? And how come, Kochanski already having found the guards falling for their Dibbley disguises suspicious, nobody questions this reality-shattering dance routine? But later, Cat solving a riddle is enough to prove to them this isn’t reality? It’s almost as if they just wanted to do that sequence so bad they didn’t care whether it made sense or not.

There’s that rock solid Series VIII plotting for you. There’s plenty I like in Back in the Red, but it totally falls to pieces in Part 3.

[(deleted)]

Due to his blindingly self-centred nature and inherited ignorance of the world, the Cat doesn’t realise that such a thing is impossible, therefore it is a perfectly logical scenario for his brain to have contributed.

[Ben Saunders]

If the crew can turn into claymation, the cat can dance with blue midget. It’s designed to mimic reality but it isn’t reality so surreal things can happen.
I was being facetious anyway, I see the dream sequence excuse quite a lot but I don’t think it really matters. The dance was funny and memorable, so it gets a pass from me, in the same way that Backwards makes less and less logical sense the more you think about it but it’s funny so and memorable so who really cares

[International Debris]

Yes, I suppose if you actually found the Blue Midget dance funny, rather than one of the most excruciatingly awkward and misguided pieces of ‘comedy’ you’ve ever watched, you might be able to find it easier to forgive.

[clem]

I agree with the point you’re making but it doesn’t apply to the Blue Midget dance for me because my problem with it is that I just think it’s crap and unfunny, nothing to do with whether or not it makes sense. (In fact I think Darrell’s justification is fine.) This discussion has reminded me of this old article, in which John cites the baby skutters in Parallel Universe: http://www.ganymede.tv/2003/06/continuity-announcement/64/

[clem]

Just to be clear that post is in reply to Ben, posted before I saw International Debris’s.

[Moonlight]

OK, here we go, I’ve been thinking about Back in the Red’s plot holes for a while and I’m happy to have an excuse for get it all down in text. You guys are the only people I know who would even know what I was talking about, so I thank you for the opportunity.

We’ve already heard about how everyone is arrested for crimes only Rimmer and Lister commit, and they didn’t actually commit them in real life. My issue is that the Blue Midget dance renders the simulation completely worthless.

Due to his blindingly self-centred nature and inherited ignorance of the world, the Cat doesn’t realise that such a thing is impossible, therefore it is a perfectly logical scenario for his brain to have contributed.

But _everyone_ is in the simulation witnessing this happen. If Kochanski notices it’s suspicious the mop head disguises work, why does something completely impossible happening not raise any red flags?

If they had established that each person is witnessing their own unique tailored version of the simulation, then that would be a valid justification. But they make it very clear everyone is experiencing the same thing. Nobody as much as reacts to the Blue Midget Dance. That would require the AR program to be clouding their judgement…which completely violates its intended purpose to accurately measure their responses to a successful escape attempt, as it would be altering their behavior. And because simulating Cat doing a dance number is not remotely relevant or useful for this purpose.

I was being facetious anyway,

I know, I gathered from the quotation marks. I was saying that even though you’re joking, I constantly see that thrown out as an excuse to 100% justify every plot hole with no questions asked.

If the crew can turn into claymation, the cat can dance with blue midget.

But the claymation sequence was _not_ part of the escape simulation. They crew tried to exit the simulation and ended up in the screensaver. Not that a screensaver makes any kind of sense for an AR suite. Regardless, it doesn’t contradict the story like the Blue Midget dance because a screensaver doesn’t have to mimic reality, whereas a simulation specifically designed to measure someone’s response to a real-life escape situation for use as evidence in a criminal proceeding about things that actually happened absolutely should mimic reality. Allowing random cartoon shit happen is just muddying the useful information that can be gleaned from it.

Up to that point, nothing physically impossible has happened. Their escape attempt has been facilitated by suspicious convenience. What does an impossible dance number contribute to the simulation’s intent of measuring their response to an escape attempt that couldn’t have been handled by just finding a Blue Midget left running that already has clearance to take off?

Red Dwarf before and since Series VIII would be smart enough to take this into account.

The dance was funny and memorable, so it gets a pass from me, in the same way that Backwards makes less and less logical sense the more you think about it but it’s funny so and memorable so who really cares

Backwards consistently makes the same amount of sense (consistently inconsistent) and takes place in a bizarro alternate universe. Back in the Red takes place in a simulation designed for an expressed purpose and then does things that totally violate that purpose. The Blue Midget dance is clearly tacked in because they wanted to do it, not because it logically fits into the story.

Backwards is a lesser episode to me because of how gimmick-reliant and inconsistent it is compared to most other Red Dwarf episodes. Also, because watching things go backwards isn’t the novelty it used to be in the olden days of 1989.

This discussion has reminded me of this old article, in which John cites the baby skutters in Parallel Universe

That joke always felt extremely out of place to me in Series II. It’s a really bizarre joke to suddenly pull out of nowhere, even in an episode as silly as that one. But even though I don’t think it works, it’s only doing something especially silly for one gag. Like the Atari Pac-man screen in Officer Rimmer (which I find hilarious enough to not be bothered by).

The Blue Midget dance, however, is a major plot point that completely contradicts the rules of the story established up to that point. This isn’t elastic reality for the sake of one joke, this is bad story structure. And that shouldn’t be so surprising coming from a Series VIII multi-parter. Again, I don’t actually dislike the sequence in of itself. I think it’s cute. But it does not fit into the larger whole, and like many Series VIII scenes it comes across like a totally disconnected sketch. Particularly considering the atrocious padding throughout BitR Part 3. Holly’s Theory of Relativity line wins my award for the single lamest joke in all of the Red Dwarf.

I hope there are no typos in this, because the edit button has never worked on the forum.

[Not John Hoare]

STOP JUSTIFYING SERIES VIII.

[Phil]

Yes, but the thing is, about Backwards…the thing you have to remember about Backwards…

Backwards…

If you don’t like Backwards, you’re a prat.

[flanl3]

Do we technically have any proof that the pre-cutback Blue Midgets couldn’t do that in real life? In fact, I’d take the dance sequence as proof that they could.

[(deleted)]

They stagger around drunk in Thanks For The Memory Re-Mastered of course. Perhaps part of their control system intercepts brain signals, like some bionic limbs can do, so they are capable of operating in every way like human legs?

[Plastic Percy]

They could dance, but due to JMC cutbacks only rudimentary body-popping.

[Ben Paddon]

We finally reached the first episode of the show that they couldn’t sit through – “Krytie TV”. They asked me to turn it off, I told them it’s considered one of the worst episodes of the show, and they asked me how it ends. I did my best to summarize the episode from memory, because it’s been well over a decade since I last watched it.

[International Debris]

And to think Bobby Llew counts it as classic Dwarf. I wonder what they’ll make of the next three.

[Hamish]

Ever notice how cast members often like the ones with a lot of THEM in it though?

[Ben Paddon]

Update: We broke up a couple of days after watching “Pete: Part 1”.

[Ben Saunders]

What, immediately after?

[Ian Symes]

No, a couple of days after.

[Ridley]

That’s brilliant, bud! How’d you work that out?

[cwickham]

Another woman badly served by Doug Naylor’s writing.

[Stephen Abootman]

So a resounding ‘no’ would be the answer to the question posed by this thread then.

[JamesTC]

WE’RE FINISHED

[Toxteth O-Grady]

The joke’s on her. Now she’ll have to buy the Series VIII DVD to find out what happens in Pete: part 2.

[International Debris]

Everyone’s say ‘she’, but Ben has been saying ‘they’ throughout. Just something to consider.

[Dave]

Yes, I assumed that the word “they” was deliberately and carefully chosen to not indicate either way, in which case maybe it’s something that would be polite not to discuss at length.

[pi r squared]

Although she is (they are) a “she” in the very first paragraph…

[Toxteth O-Grady]

I deliberately checked that they’d been referred to as a “she” before I made my post.

Ctrl+F is quite a handy trick in these situations. Just something to consider.

[Phil]

I nominate the second half of this thread for Hall of Fame status.

[MANI506]

I always remember that ‘follow the Rimmer shaped blur’ was quoted by an actress on my college course who had shown no previous interest in Red Dwarf just after it was broadcast and then ten years later a good guitarist friend said that Pete the dinosaur was the best episode. I’m happy my wife laughed at Back To Reality and I think I’ll leave it there.

[MANI506]

I remember Cappsy saying that he gave up on VIII half way through and Only The Good… is the only episode since V that I didn’t watch on day of broadcast.

[Ben Paddon]

I sat down to try and watch “Pete Part II” myself, but I couldn’t do it. I made it as far as “…now we… rebuild the time wand.”

[bloodteller]

personally, i can only ever make it as far as “…why don’t we get Pete to eat some roughage!” before my brain just shuts down

[Bexley Heath]

I deliberately checked that they’d been referred to as a “she” before I made my post.

Or you could have referred to them as “they” and it would have made no difference at all to your post.

Ben’s phrasing throughout made it clear that “they” was by far and away the preferred term of reference. Seems like it would have been easier just to use that than to spend time Ctrl+F-ing.

[Dave]

Exactly.

[Ben Paddon]

I don’t want the pronoun conversation to dominate this thread, because it’s mostly about watching Red Dwarf VIII with someone who, it turns out, won’t be finishing it owing to the fact that we’re no longer together, but their preferred pronouns are they/them, but they also didn’t have any objections to she/her or he/him.

Anyway, dinosaurs! Discuss.

[cwickham]

Why did Doug decide Pete was the story which needed to become a two-parter when there isn’t enough material there for one episode to begin with?

[JamesTC]

I do find it strange that they decided to pad two stories rather than doing a bottle episode just in the prison cells set along with one padded story. It just makes the series so misshapen.

Perhaps they felt Duct Soup wasn’t recieved well in similar circumstances the previous series so felt they wanted to just expand a bigger episode. Or maybe there wasn’t time to write an entirely new half hour.

[Lily]

Why did Doug … could be applied to pretty much every part of VIII

It’s been a long time since i watched the series or the documentary. Were there script issues on this one?

[cwickham]

Ah, just checked some old G&T articles: Pete had to become a two-parter to offset the cost of the dinosaur special effects.

We know the original version of VIII would have looked something like this:
Back in the Red (hour-long special)
Cassandra
Krytie TV
Captain’s Office
Earth

So there must be multiple ideas that Doug had that were dropped before even making script stage. I wonder if some of those have shown up in the Dave era, unbeknownst to us…

[Ben Saunders]

>Why did Doug decide Pete was the story which needed to become a two-parter
They spent a lot of money on that fucking dinosaur and wanted/needed to make the most of it

>Were there script issues on this one?
Big time. Not the biggest of times, if I remember correctly, but quite a few brown trousers moments. Specifically needing to stretch out Pete and BitR, and ditching Earth.

I’m kind of glad they never went through with Earth – the crash probably would have been done with terrible CGI and it would have ended the show for good. No Dave era. I think the idea was that Doug was going to end the series then and there and do a sort of reboot for the ill-fated movie.

I THINK.

[Moonlight]

I watched Krytie TV again recently, for the first time in a while. It was…bad.

[Moonlight]

Namely the shower stuff actually made me uncomfortable, which had never happened when I was younger.

[International Debris]

Tedious as the structure of Pete Part 1 is, at least Captain’s Office as a standalone would have worked a bit better as the plot could literally have been ‘Rimmer and Lister get in increasingly more trouble’. Instead, trying to tie in the actual Pete plot with it, then extending it over two episodes, just made it seem like a series of sketches in dire need of some direction.

I’m not sure there’s an ideal version of VIII to be made, because even with a lot of editing, I still don’t think there are enough genuinely good gags and plots to make a three hour series. An hour-long BitR (or even a three parter), followed by them escaping and finding the ship with Cassandra on, then a couple more episodes where they’re struggling to survive on Blue Midget, maybe an episode where they’re on the run from some of the resurrected crew flying a Starbug. Then an Only the Good… style closer where they get caught, taken back to the ship to face sentencing, only to discover the microbe and end up saving the ship, with Hollister exonerating them from their (frankly minor) crimes as a reward.

The ideal VII, on the other, is easier:
Tikka
Stoke
Ouroboros
Blue
Epideme
Nanarchy

With all the good jokes from Duct Soup and Beyond a Joke, as well as the time and effort put into writing and making those, channeled into improving those six episodes. You’d have an almost good series then.

[Hamish]

I still don’t get all of the hate for Beyond a Joke. By VII standards, it’s fine.

[Ben Saunders]

I liked it. But I like a lot of things.

[Moonlight]

I watched Pete Part 1 again. It was boring as fuck and not funny. Nothing interesting happened, and the structure was clumsy and padded out beyond belief. I have little interest in viewing Part 2, but I probably will.

[International Debris]

Yeah but when Pete dies, Rimmer thinks that Birdman’s use of ‘stiff’ is a reference to the viagra they put in the guards’ halftime drinks without them being seen during the typical prison punishment of playing a basketball game, something that happened some time before, in a different part of the ship! How could you not love it??

I have little interest in viewing Part 2, but I probably will.

Seeya in ten minutes?

[Author]

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