Skipper (lost opportunity)

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  • #228591

    RamesesNiblickTheThird

    Why wasn’t Rimmer in black and white at some point during the episode as a nod to what they wanted him to be from the outset? I assume Doug must have forgot.

    #228617

    Flap Jack

    I think the reference is a bit too obscure to be worth it, and the oddness of it would probably be too distracting, unless it was very brief.

    #228630

    Ben Paddon

    Also money.

    #228659

    Me Own Stunts

    Would it really have cost very much to remove the colour from Rimmer for a ten second segment?

    #228660

    Ben Saunders

    Too much time and money getting Chris Barrie into black and white makeup which would probably take a couple hours and making a black and white costume for just a ten second scene

    #228662

    Dax101

    Not sure where it would have fit tbh. what point could he have done the B/W effect without too much focus being put on that and away from whatever else was happening in whatever universe he skipped too.

    A missed opportunity is that they didn’t get Hattie to cameo as holly maybe in the Mr Rat universe. yes it would have taken some of the shine of Norman being back but if you are gonna do a nostalgic alternative universes episode like that then why not?

    #228664

    bloodteller

    >A missed opportunity is that they didn’t get Hattie to cameo as holly maybe in the Mr Rat universe. yes it would have taken some of the shine of Norman being back but if you are gonna do a nostalgic alternative universes episode like that then why not?

    because then the episode would be overly saturated with guest stars

    #228667

    Ian Symes

    G&T Admin

    Too much time and money getting Chris Barrie into black and white makeup which would probably take a couple hours and making a black and white costume for just a ten second scene

    Or we could use the green screen.

    #228672

    Dave

    It does make you wonder how much money Steptoe & Son wasted on all those black and white costumes and makeup and all those grey sets just to achieve such a specific effect.

    #228674

    si

    Might have been funny to put him in the background of some old scenes.

    #228676

    Ben Saunders

    The question is was Skipper being written before Norman phone up and asked to be in it, meaning there might have been a completely Holly-less Skipper? Was all the nostalgia shit added in to justify Holly or would we have gone back the the grey bunkroom and everything just sans Holly? I do sort of think that shoving Norm and Hattie in it would make the episode a bit saturated with guest stars and non-stop rounds of applause, but I guess they could have worked it in if they really wanted to.

    Why did the paint everything in black and white back in the olden days? Was it to remind people that what they were watching wasn’t real, to avoid a scenario like when everybody thought War of the Worlds was real?

    #228683

    Ben Paddon

    A missed opportunity is that they didn’t get Hattie to cameo as holly maybe in the Mr Rat universe. yes it would have taken some of the shine of Norman being back but if you are gonna do a nostalgic alternative universes episode like that then why not?

    Hattie’s said she doesn’t want to do it because she feels she’s aged out of the role.

    I should probably set up a keyboard macro for that.

    #228684

    flanl3

    So has everybody else, if we want everything to look and feel exactly the same as I-VI.

    Especially Norman.

    #228686

    Dave

    As much as it was weird seeing such an aged-looking Holly in Skipper, the look is actually quite fitting for an old senile computer.

    Although I do think it was weird that he was senile and broken before the accident even happened, rather than 3 million years later.

    #228697

    Ben Saunders

    Was he senile before the accident? He is in that alternative universe which barely counts

    #228699

    Dax101

    Hattie’s said she doesn’t want to do it because she feels she’s aged out of the role.

    I should probably set up a keyboard macro for that.

    Until she is actually asked and turns it down i don’t think her saying that means all that much right now.

    Hattie is probably being hard on herself because she has aged since she last played holly but if she was actually given that choice to come back for a cameo, episode or whatever she would be kinda crazy to say no.

    The reason why i feel skipper would have been good to use Hattie for a cameo is because Doug has made it clear that Norman is holly and so if there could have a universe where Hattie is still holly for a cameo then why not? her holly is still part of the legacy of the show so lets not forget that Doug.

    #228700

    Dave

    Was he senile before the accident? He is in that alternative universe which barely counts

    I was only talking about the alternate universe. It seems to be one in which pre-accident Holly is as deranged as the three-million-years-later version from the main universe.

    In that reality, the accident was probably Holly’s fault.

    #228701

    Ben Saunders

    Who is the first technician? If Lister is third and Rimmer is second, where was the first?

    #228702

    Dax101

    Was he senile before the accident? He is in that alternative universe which barely counts

    There is definitely some confusion in that alternative universe because not only is Rimmer clearly much older and a hologram for some reason but its almost treated like its time travel at times where lister is in stasis at that time period for having a cat onboard and the radiation leak happens around that time too.

    You can probably just explain it simply as its an alternative universe so things happened differently but its hard not to follow it with prequel logic with its execution

    #228703

    Dave

    One of the four service robots. Maybe the one that’s gone absolutely mad.

    #228704

    Dave

    (in response to the First Technician question.)

    #228707

    bloodteller

    >Who is the first technician? If Lister is third and Rimmer is second, where was the first?

    maybe the first technician is that Bradley bloke from Skipper

    #228708

    bloodteller

    or maybe there is no first technician? i don’t know if was ever established if the whole “first, second and third” thing is like a ranking system or if it’s just the number of technicians onboard ship.

    #228710

    Dave

    Presumably it’s a ranking thing if you can become a Technician 2.5.

    #228715

    si

    Petrovich, wasn’t it?

    #228718

    Ian Symes

    G&T Admin

    Aye, but remember Rimmer is also a First Technician in the books. It all seems pretty straightforward to me – just different layers of hierarchy within the Technicians’ department. Given that we never see any First Technicians on screen, maybe in the TV universe at least the Firsts are the senior management level who work in an office somewhere, the Seconds are the team leaders of the people who actually do the manual stuff, and the Thirds are the rest.

    #228720

    bloodteller

    >Rimmer is also a First Technician in the books.

    unless you read Last Human, in which for some reason he calls himself a Third Technician multiple times

    #228723

    International Debris

    I think one reason for Hattie’s comment about ageing out of the role is that Norman looked a bit old back in series one, whereas Hattie looked young in series three. Although Norm looks like a jaundiced corpse in Skipper, the difference between him and his appearances is still less than Hattie’s I think.

    #228724

    Ben Saunders

    Bit bonkers that they would only have two technicians on a ship the size of a city – what if three things went wrong? It seems pretty blatant from the conversation in The End that Rimmer and Lister were the only technicians, unless the other(s) were busy doing something even -more- important than (not) preventing a nuclear catastrophe

    #228727

    Ridley

    Might have been asleep after A thru X Shift.

    #228730

    Flap Jack

    I always thought that Todhunter was the First Technician, even though he’s clearly an Exam Invigilator / Stasis Explainer.

    Rimmer being First Technician in the novels is definitely one of those “different for the sake of different” changes to me. Rimmer managing to actually attain a high-ranking position in any department just feels… unRimmerish. Even if it is just there to demonstrate how terrible he is at leadership.

    I also assume that there are other technicians than Rimmer and Lister (maybe all the others are Firsts?), because their assessment of themselves as the lowest ranking people on the ship is based on the fact that their responsibilities (USUALLY) are just to do basic routine maintenance on food dispensing machines, which at least suggests that there are other technicians or engineers who do the more taxing, higher skilled work of making sure the ship keeps moving, the mining equipment keeps working etc.

    #228732

    International Debris

    It seems pretty blatant from the conversation in The End that Rimmer and Lister were the only technicians

    Really? I never got that at all.
    General references to ‘Z shift’ always suggested that Rimmer and Lister were the lowest of the low. Other technicians were definitely doing the important stuff.

    #228733

    bloodteller

    maybe the mysterious “man who chains the bog roll” mentioned in Series I is the First Technician, given that lister states that he was a higher rank than rimmer or himself.

    that does raise the question of why workers who were even lower-ranking than toilet cleaners were given the job of repairing a drive plate, though.

    #228734

    Ben Saunders

    Right, so there does seem to be other technicians maybe – bog roll technician for one – but that begs the question why did they give the drive plate job to Rimmer? Only a yoghurt would do such a thing

    #228735

    Flap Jack

    There are 2 major possibilities I can think of.

    1. All other technicians were sick/unavailable.
    2. It was a combination of Rimmer massively talking up his abilities to management in his latest attempt to climb the ladder, and management not realising how crucial the drive plate repair was, so they assigned it to Rimmer on pretty much a whim.
    #228736

    quinn_drummer

    Maybe the drive plate fix was really simple, like just a loose screw. But Rimmer being Rimmer ballsed that up so spectacularly (maybe by taking the whole thing apart to give it a polish) that he broke it to the point he blew.

    #228737

    Hamish

    Maybe the accident was Holly’s fault and he just got the Rimmer hologram to believe that he had botched a repair of the drive plate to give him some cover. The only other evidence is that one video of Rimmer dying, which Holly could have altered.

    I mean, there is an entire episode centred on how silly it was to give Rimmer that job. It’s a blatant clue, isn’t it? Blatant!

    #228738

    Pete Part Three

    This is one of the things that got altered in the novels and carried over to Series IV with Z Shift, the greatly expanded crew and Rimmer’s culpability, but in 1988 I think the intention was that Lister and Rimmer were the only Technicians of their rank.

    Todhunter says that the only person Rimmer outranks is Lister. That wouldn’t really work if there are other Third Technicians knocking around. Same with Rimmer belittling Lister for being the lowest rank on the ship.

    #228740

    Katydid

    Same with Rimmer belittling Lister for being the lowest rank on the ship.

    But third technician _is_ the lowest rank on the ship, even if there’s a bunch of third technicians.

    #228741

    Dave

    “You are over one man”. It’s pretty clear.

    #228742

    Pete Part Three

    >But third technician _is_ the lowest rank on the ship, even if there’s a bunch of third technicians.

    My point is that it makes Rimmer seem every more pathetic if he’s lording it over one just man (as Todhunter says).. The belittling is even more petty and, well, Series1Rimmer-like.

    #228744

    Bexley Heath

    I understood “You are over one man” as “you are managing (only) one man”. There might be other Third Techs who Rimmer outranks, but they’re “under” (as in, managed by) different Second Techs.

    It’s more relevant for Todhunter to be saying “why can’t you have a good working relationship with the only other member of your team?” rather than just “ha ha you’re ranked second bottom, now stop putting Lister on report”.

    #228745

    Flap Jack

    I’m happy to accept the vague notion that there are other second and third technicians on the ship, but they’re in different sub-departments to Rimmer and Lister, so it’s just that their section of the hierarchy is considered lower down than others, i.e. a third technician in another department might not have direct authority over Rimmer, but would consider themselves “more important”.

    #228746

    Ben Saunders

    I always thought “You, Lister are over one man” meant “You and Lister are over one man”, meaning “You and Lister are two men”. For years. And I never considered it could mean anything else until a couple of weeks ago. Just thought it was a really odd way there are 169 people on this ship and you are two of them.

    #228747

    Ben Saunders

    Actually, when I was younger I thought “you, Rimmer are over one man” was an incredibly weird way of saying “you are one man”.

    Which makes even less sense

    #228749

    Pete Part Three

    I think people are coming to this from the sensibility of the later series and novels. It’s mentioned frequently in the first series that there’s only 169 people on the ship and Lister is ranked 169. Admittedly, it’s not explicit, but I’m pretty sure the intention is that Rimmer is 168, and Lister would have been helping Rimmer fix the drive plate had he not been in Stasis at the time.

    Due to the relatively small number, it’s perhaps not surprising that there’s *not* a bunch of other technicians wandering around.

    All of this is retro-fudged over in Series IV and (not particularly convincingly) in Justice, but it doesn’t really seem to be the original intent. Rimmer and Lister are supposed to be the lowest of the low, with Lister being unfazed by this (due to his lack of ambition) and reveling in it, because it’s obviously a huge problem for Rimmer. The fact that Rimmer has superiority – but only over Lister – is the smallest thing he can cling to in their relationship.

    It’s not even widely remarked upon that Petersen is an Officer (albeit a catering officer) and Chen and Selby seem to also outrank Rimmer.

    #228750

    Pete Part Three

    * and Lister would have been helping Rimmer fix the drive plate had he not been in Stasis at the time *as Rimmer claims*

    #228759

    bloodteller

    i always used to think “you are over one man” meant “you’re wasting your time getting so frustrated with this one guy”

    #228766

    Lily

    Wrong thread, but for a long time I heard that line as “you’re only one man” and thought it meant “how can a single person be such a massive pain in the arse”

    #228767

    Ben Saunders

    lmao
    that’s funny and i appreciate the “i know this is the wrong thread but fuck it” attitude

    #228771

    International Debris

    i always used to think “you are over one man” meant “you’re wasting your time getting so frustrated with this one guy”

    Me too, I linked the word ‘over’ with the phrase ‘get over’ in my head. It wasn’t until seeing it discussed here that I realised I was wrong.

    Let’s just have one big thread on here where we have all the discussions eh

    #228796

    flanl3

    FOURTH TECHNICIAN:

    The JMC create a new rank and Lister is immediately demoted to it and all of a fansite freaks out because does this mean that Rimmer is now over two men

    #228820

    Ben Saunders

    I read a fan fic once where Rimmer was over two Listers

    #228840

    Flap Jack

    I read a fan fic once where Rimmer was over two Listers

    The ‘H’ Stands For ‘Horny’: A Red Dwarf Fan Fiction.

    “So good it converted me from softlight to hardlight.” – The Guardian

    #229185

    Plastic Percy

    By the author of that fanfic where Kochanski uses Kryten as a dildo fuck machine.

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