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  • #245325
    Warbodog
    Participant

    #245328

    Like those little reviews Warbofrog … has inspired me to re-watch the TOS films which I’ve generally struggled to particularly like though I have enjoyed.

    That could say more about your ability to make them sound more interesting than they are though

    #245330
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I’m surprised you’d need to watch them after I described their plots beat for beat, although not too much worse than the official spoiler-filled trailers for III and especially IV.

    The good ones are always worth a watch though. II-IV + VI are some of the best Trek there is.

    #245332

    II-IV + VI are some of the best Trek there is.

    eh … not too sure about that. Although I’ve never never really got on with TOS as a whole.

    I quite like Motion Picture for what it is.

    #245334
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Not sure why I was in stating things as facts mode, other opinions are permitted. I just think those films really make the most of their run-time, are more memorable and have more depth to them (well, not IV admittedly) that you don’t find in most of the two-parters. Really, most of my favourite Trek is found in DS9, but that’s its own category. And plenty of TNG highlights too. I don’t outright hate Voyager and have lots of nostalgia for it, but there’s nothing in it that comes close to the level of the best TNGs for me.

    #245337
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Lmao I love the images to end and start each page, classic stuff.

    I’m sure my opinions on the films are on the previous page, but to reiterate: The Motion Picture is slow, dull, lifeless and devoid of character, but there’s something so astonishingly beautiful about it towards the end that really affected me and made the whole experience really worth it. Star Trek II I found to be an extremely solid action movie with a tight script but not much more, except of course THAT ending which just hits you like a speeding train.
    Star Trek III is my favourite of the movies so far, for its slightly odd structure, adventure tone and emotional core.

    I read a post on 4chan’s Trek general which I would like to share, if you’ll forgive me. Somebody said that people who like TPM like their Star Trek slow and cerebral, those who like Wrath of Khan prefer their Star Trek to be like Star Wars, and “Search For Spock is for women and gays because it’s about grown men crying over each other”. Slightly problematic stereotyping aside, as a slightly effeminate bi man who loves the slow, cerebral stuff of TOS and the crying men of ST3, I think he was onto something.

    I absolutely recommend watching the movies again, particularly coming off of the show when you have an understanding of the group dynamic and particularly the relationship between Kirk and Spock. I love Star Trek III because it shows what incredible lengths Kirk will go to in the name of Spock, sacrificing everything, right after Spock doing the same for him in 2. Also bringing back the TV show theme music at the end just kicks you right in the gut

    #245339
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I like VI best, what does this ‘4 Chan’ fellow have to say about that?!?

    I did the pics when procrastinating today and realised I needed to bump the page and post them straight away rather than pointlessly stressing over missing it for however many days. The thread lasted 500 posts before it descended to slash, better than expected really. We didn’t even do “which ship would win” yet.

    #245344
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    The hacker known as “4 Chan” was responding to me specifically about the first three, I think. You probably like comedy (somebody on a Red Dwarf forum appreciating comedy??) if what I’ve heard about IV is true. V is for contrarians I guess, VI is political (I also guess).

    I have to admire my own constraint for not talking about breasts for so long, although I think I first expressed my love for Beverley pretty early on

    #245346

    Do you find Q sexy?

    #245348
    Warbodog
    Participant

    VI and DS9 kind of go together tonally, so it makes sense. I liked III best growing up, but came to artistically appreciate II more. If I had to save one though, on a superficial level III introduces all those glorious models that are about 75% of TNG, so it’s very important (Spacedock, Bird-of-Prey (which was supposed to be Romulan), Excelsior class, Oberth class, Merchantman freighter).

    Here’s something to get helplessly lost in, clicking through the series tabs to see the multiple reuses across decades: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Studio_model

    #245349
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Yeah, weren’t the Romulans changed to Klingons fairly Kraft minute because Nimoy thought they were more cinematic or something, leading to weird stuff like the Klingons having cloaking tech and there being a Klingon neutral zone?

    #245350

    how long is a Kraft minute in Earth time?

    #245351
    Warbodog
    Participant

    The issue of why proud Klingons would use a sneaky cloaking device never really made sense in the context of TNG era Klingons, so it’s probably that film’s/Nimoy’s fault. TOS’s no-budget third season already set a precedent for the two powers sharing ship designs at least, since they couldn’t afford to build another model, so it still works.

    >Do you find Q sexy?

    I’d go with Q, but I’d be thinking of Neelix.

    #245352

    I’d go with Q, but I’d be thinking of Neelix

    Sir, you are sick! You are a sick, sick person! How can you possibly even conceive of such an idea?

    #245353
    Warbodog
    Participant

    He’d never leave his one-year-old girlfriend who it’s later established hasn’t entered puberty yet, and we know it.

    Oh, Voyager.

    #245354

    That really is a misstep on their part isn’t it … I like the idea of a species with very short life spaces, but then to pair her off with an old man, just why?!

    #245355
    JamesTC
    Participant

    They weren’t in a romantic relationship though. There were the occasional jealous moments in Season 3 (at which point she was the equivalent of a human in their twenties age wise) but a lot of that came across more as an overprotective parent than a jealous lover.

    Things don’t seem to have gone well for Jennifer Lien since she left Voyager. It was very harsh how she was written out too. They needed to get rid of a cast member when bringing in Seven of Nine so they decided to get rid of Harry Kim but then he won a sexist man alive poll so the network wanted him to be kept.

    #245356
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    How did he win the sexiest man alive poll? Was it rigged?

    #245357
    Warbodog
    Participant

    The parent angle didn’t come across to me at all, but I haven’t watched it since that time, so maybe. She was introduced in promotional materials as “Neelix’s partner,” which you could say was ambiguous. They were going to have a baby at one point, which is less. Do parents refer to their children as “my sweet?” Maybe they do. Bit weird.

    I was going to save this up for when Ben reached Voyager, but my introduction to the series was this interesting/funny trailer for the pilot that’s notable for its non-quality-controlled voice-over that uses the Doctor’s redacted name from promotional materials and mispronounces half of the others. A very progressive character summary for Kez [sic] too.

    #245364
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Trailer breakdown:

    – “One of the most respected captains in the Starfleet” – I always took Voyager and her captain and crew to be pretty ordinary by Starfleet standards, as a contrast to the elite Enterprise. Jeri Taylor’s semi-canon novels probably clear it up.

    – “Chah Kartay.”

    – “Toowok” – don’t know what the “peacekeeper” stuff’s about, just say security officer.

    – “Communications Officer Harry Kim” – technically operations officer like Data, but this probably still applies, his role’s a bit vague compared to the others. According to Rick Berman, his role was “the ensign.”

    – “Barlarner Tarrez.”

    – “An alien unlike any ever encountered by the Federation” – see most episodes of Star Trek.

    – “Kez, a young and beautiful alien and Neelix’s partner” – get the Bechdel Test on that.

    – “Doc Zimmerman” – they dropped the name quite late on, it was in magazine previews too.

    – “Voyejoh.”

    #245365
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Phantasms with the Gunmen esque plot point again. Considering these aired 4 days apart, suppose Android characters just lend themselves to certain concepts.

    #245366
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Phantasms was the first TNG I saw, turning on part way through as a kid. Bit of a weird one to come in on, but very memorable.

    Roddenberry’s failed TV pilot The Questor Tapes would have been the definitive android series if that had been picked up in the 70s (probably, I haven’t seen it).

    #245373
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Force of Nature is a bit on the nose, a noble theme but it’s so obvious it’s a bit like one of those WWF adverts currently airing telling me I’m killing the planet even though I’ve been recycling for 20 years and don’t drive.

    #245376

    You just being alive is killing the planet you selfish bastard

    #245377
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Big corporations and China are destroying the planet. You’re doing fine. 100 companies are responsible for 71% of global C02 emissions, but don’t forget to switch your TV off at the wall and walk to school.

    #245378
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Truth. Literally couldn’t do anymore outside of covering my house and self in some kind of vegetation to suck up the CO2 I come into contact with. LED bulbs, smart meters, solar panels, 4 kinds of recycling, I walk or use hybrid/electric public transport. So WWFs panda hit squad can chase someone else haha…

    Back on Trek, Troi is fucking amazing – why did they just use her for tits appeal for so long?

    #245379
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I was thinking about Force of Nature a few weeks ago.

    It completely fails in terms of trying to make people pay attention to environmental issues and even in-universe the future episodes just pay it a little lip service or ignore it completely…

    …just like when governments try to “go green” and it is ignored within a few months.

    Force of Nature being a complete disaster makes it a perfect analogy for the fight against global warming.

    “What? Warp drive is destroying the universe? Ahh we’ll be fine”

    #245380
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    It was nearly there, they could have played the “can’t train a cat” up more because it being an analogy for not being able to control the force of nature was a bit lost. Generally though it’s just that it ends poorly, just speeches in the observation room and then “oh, Starfleet say keep it to warp 5”.

    #245382
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Attached and Dark Page were good. Attached in particular, although the tag things looked like those locks you get on bus station lockers.

    #245383
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Here’s some Deep Space Nine concept art for the sake of it, because I love this stuff and because more images will help to make this page more annoying to load as it goes on.

    Designer Herman Zimmerman:

    “Berman said: find me the most alien thing that you can create that could be a space station at the edge of the galaxy. I thought of a gyroscope shape as maybe being a basic form that we could work with. We also vaguely connected the gyroscope shape with the shape of an atom, with all the electons running around the nucleus. So what you see in the Deep Space Nine exterior now is a combination of an atom, a Mercedes emblem and a gyroscope.”

    “The Cardassian mind prefers balance to symmetry, ellipses to circles, angles to straight lines and hard metallic surfaces and dark colors. They don’t like ninety-degree angles.”

    Here’s a floor plan of how the massive Promenade set and adjoining sets on Paramount Stage 17 fit together in real life. I would have loved to have taken a walk around there.

    I wish they’d release the DS9 Companion in ebook some time, it’s the best reference book I’ve ever seen. I got rid of my paperback years ago, wasn’t going to lug that 700-pager in my backpack everywhere.

    The Art of Star Trek was great too. I can fill this page with TOS / Phase II / Movies / TNG concept art if anyone wants it.

    #245384
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I’ve listened to this about six times this morning, learning the bassline and chords. I fucking love it. Almost as good as the actual video of Shatner talking nonsense for what must be fifteen minutes, and making you believe every word he says. I love how on show Shatnerian pauses are in this, and that typical Captain Kirk talking… slowly… before… finishingyoursentencequickly, on “and the climb… is… going… wherenomanhasgonebefore.” Shatner and Kirk are indistinguishable in the clip.

    #245385
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Reminds me most obviously of this speech from TOS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cOlJdObNlc

    Those facial expression he does, before “risk”, after “equally great”.

    #245386
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    For anyone who’s interested (ie nobody), the bass line is this: https://i.imgur.com/LzUlCrn.png and the chords for the chorus are Dm F Gm C

    #245387
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Discussing the episodes and films is all well and good, but this thread is best when it’s fixating on obscure extracurricular tangents in unnecessary detail.

    TOS rock: http://vulcansrock.com/freemusic.html

    #245389
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I don’t think anybody in here is into music theory, but I found it interesting how the Kirk Climbing A Mountain song starts on a Bb lydian sound before going into F major for the chorus, where the key signature doesn’t change, but the tonal center does.

    Nobody?

    I’ll check out that TOS rock later

    #245390
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    I’ve been watching Trekkies again, and it’s brought up a bit of mixed feelings.

    I was far too young for it, but there’s a cosy nostalgia to life as a Trek fan in the nineties. All those small town conventions and homemade costumes that don’t look quite right; but get 10/10 for effort and imagination. It’s quite refreshing in this day and age where sci-fi conventions are big, sleek corporate affairs and people spend hundreds of pounds on screen accuracte costumes (honestly, I’ve seen people pay over £80 just to get the right buttons for their Matt Smith Doctor jackets).

    But also, and I’m not entirely sure this is deliberate on the part of the producers, but in making a film about how Trekkies are just everyday people with a passion for Star Trek, the first film in particular just showcases the worst of fan excess. I also felt a little sorry for Barbra Adams, the Whitewater juror who turned up in her Starfleet uniform. The second film, where we get to see more of her day-to-day life, gives the impression she’s stuck in a dead-end job and has retreated into Star Trek as an escapist fantasy.

    I was googling randomly and discovered that Douglas Marks – the crossdressing Wrath of Khan singer – was imprisoned for elder abuse in 2010, having left his elderly mother in a bathtub unattended for 18 hours. And, more worryingly, came across what appears to be the genuine Twitter profile of Tony Alleyne – the guy who transformed his flat into the Enterprise and was arrested for downloading photos of child abuse.

    #245391
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I was thinking about Trekkies earlier in the thread, when we were talking about Denise Crosby moving on to greater things… that amounted to some guest spots in TNG and fronting a documentary they couldn’t bag a bigger name for.

    It definitely goes for the freak show angle, tempered by occasional sweetness like James Doohan talking about how he inspired a suicidal woman to become an engineer. I watched Trekkies 2 once, but it mustn’t have been exploitative enough for me to remember.

    My favourite part was Brent Breaks, because I knew someone who was similarly obsessed with a celebrity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT9j2pVxius

    #245394
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Yeah, you have to wonder how quickly Denise Crosby realised she’d shot herself in the foot. I think she’s the weakest actress out of the initial crew, but Tasha as a character had a lot of potential. Of the original three female characters she’s the only one not in a ‘caring’ job and is shown to be tough and capable without compromising her femininity.

    The character of Sela, the convoluted daughter of alternate Tasha, feels like an awkward idea for Crosby to get her foot back in the door.

    #245395

    Fuck knows what Denise was thinking leaving. I know her reason was “her character didn’t have anything to do” – but really, no-ones character was that fleshed out that they had anything to do but visit planets and deliver lines.

    As you point out Percy, she was one of the better written female characters in the lead roles at the time, much more interesting which a back story that could have created some excellent stories has she stuck around.

    Instead she crops up in bit roles here and there and desperately clings to her Trek credentials to try and stay somewhat in the game, which is quite sad really.

    #245396
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I forgot she produced Trekkies and Trekkies 2, so I was being unfair about them not attracting a bigger name. But that makes the sense of regret even stronger. Maybe she’d done the lucrative convention circuit a lot and felt comfortable with her position in the franchise by then, that’s how she comes across.

    I like Tasha as well and see the potential there, but that might largely be the novelty of her being rare.

    #245397

    I don’t even really see the point of her doing the convention circuit. Apart from fucking Data and dying, she character has nothing of note for her to really discuss, and all her production stories must pale in comparison to actors who spent 7+ years making the show

    #245431
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Did they just abandon they storyline about Wesley being told he’s the fucking chosen one and will grow up to be Jesus, according to The Traveller? Good.

    #245432
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Nope.

    #245433
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Where you at? If Rightful Heir put you off, I think that’s the last full-on Klingon episode in TNG. Klingon stories in DS9 and the films usually have bigger picture things going on than some dead guy’s honour to keep you invested, or they start mucking around a bit because Ron Moore was sick of being asked to write the Klingon ones.

    #245434
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Lower Decks got me right in the feels. Lt Ogawa is unbelievably annoying though, can you imagine working with her? No thanks.

    #245436
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Lower Decks is great, the animated sitcom it inspired remains to be seen. You might have recognised the Vulcan from Voyager, he’s played by producer Jeri Taylor’s son, but in a Tom Paris-style aversion to crossover continuity they gave the characters slightly different names (Taurik/Vorik). For some bloody reason.

    #245437
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Didn’t want to pay René Echevarria and the other writers royalties for their character, I guess.

    #245438
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Whenever I see him in it goes “I never knew Freddie Prinze Jr was in Star Trek” then I Google it and find out he isn’t. Then it’s “wasn’t he in Voyager/TNG?” depending on what I’m watching.

    It’s funny you say about them not just keeping the characters and transferring them though because the one they actually kept I didn’t remember even though I watched The First Duty about 2 weeks ago.

    #245439
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Suppose that was within their own show though, rather than across the Bermanverse.

    #245440
    Hamish
    Participant

    You can believe most Vulcans look the same though.

    #245442
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Y’all look alike.

    #245471
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Another classic wtf casting/character decision, Lee Arenberg played ‘Gral’ in two Star Trek series, they’ve learned you might think, but no, he played Ferengi Gral in DS9 and Tellarite Gral in Enterprise.

    They go through the trouble of renaming Robert Duncan McNeill and background artist Vulcan engineer for no reason, but don’t bother coming up with a different name for two characters of different species?

    #245472
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Ferengi are probably the worst for duplication, because they look for actors of a certain type. There’s probably an unflattering industry term for that type. Maybe ‘Ferengi.’

    Armin Shimerman and Max Grodenchik each played two different Ferengi in TNG before their main roles as Quark and Rom. Seems like most others double or triple up across the years. Then there’s the greater weirdness of Ethan Phillips playing a Ferengi not only before his stint as Neelix, but after.

    And aforementioned pangalactic legend Jeffrey Combs.

    #245473
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Did all the PADDs get left in a hot car during season 7 or is that fact they’re all convex a design decision.

    Seems to just appear late on.

    #245475
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Worf’s gf and that Vulcan lady were played by the same actress?! Whhhaaattt?!

    And yeah I gave up and went to sleep mid-Rightful-Heir and haven’t gone back since

    #245504
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I forgot, she (Suzie Plakson) plays a female Q at one point as well.

    If you count The Animated Series, James Doohan likely has the most characters to his name, since he voiced most of the aliens, including Chekov’s replacement. He voiced the occasional glowing energy thing in TOS too.

    Surprised we haven’t got into The Animated Series, there’s lots of fun to have there.

    #245505
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Yeah he was the voice of mission control or whatever in Assignment Earth and possibly the Guardian of Forever.

    I watched four episodes of The Animated Series and I feel like it blew it’s load with the second episode about Spock’s childhood and was never going to reach those heights again. Everything feels so rushed in 25 mins

    #245506
    Warbodog
    Participant

    The other good episode is Larry Niven importing one of his Ringworld short stories with no effort made to adapt it to the established Star Trek universe. Notable for being the only Kirk-era story to not have Kirk in too.

    If you were reading the episode novelisations in the 70s before home video, some of the TAS episodes would seem just as good as the average TOS, without being ruined by the laziness and ineptitude of Filmation, presided over by a colour-blind director so greys become pink at random.

    The not-good episodes are entertaining in their own way too, especially if you binge the series so you get the maximum impact of the endless animation reuse. All those pterodactyls.

    #245507
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Respect to the latest Discovery episode for showing ‘previously on Star Trek’ footage straight from the 1960s with the original actors, design aesthetic and non-remastered clunky model Enterprise (which the Berman era seemed ashamed of and would always replace with CG to fit in). It’s not a historical rewrite, it’s an update. And a TV show.

    #245508
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    To me though all this desperately cramming in references is a bit like burning someone’s house down and giving them an Elddis Mistral and a £50 voucher for Asda. Yes, I have a roof over my head some natty George clothing and a bit of food, but it’s not really recompense for the original issue.

    #245509
    Warbodog
    Participant

    I do wish they’d cut down on the references and go out on their own more, but this feels like a continuation of what Enterprise season 4 was doing more than anything, just shunted forward to the Pike era. I don’t think Discovery S2 or Enterprise S4 are peak Trek at all, but more worthwhile to me than Braga-era Voyager & Enterprise. I haven’t stopped watching out of apathy at least.

    #245510
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    As bad as Enterprise or Voyager get though, for me they still have the advantage of having likeable characters somewhere, Discovery has the most vacuous set of characters I’ve ever seen. If they said they were going to kill off Geordi during TNG I’d have been writing to CBS, if they said everyone on board the Discovery was going to get flushed into space and vaporised in a supernova I wouldn’t give two shits, I’d welcome it in fact.

    I just don’t care at all. To be honest I just wish they’d stop because the more they muddy the waters the harder it’ll be for any future series. It’ll be like Mass Effect, they made the universe so difficult to exist in because of 3, they had to abandon their entire universe, get new characters and set it in a different galaxy just to avoid the continuity nightmare.

    #245511
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Ah well, I like most of the characters and enjoy seeing them every week. But it’s kind of a Stargate Universe deal where the things those characters are getting up to aren’t all that interesting. Which is strange, considering how epic those things technically are.

    #245512
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I think they fail on a basic level to be in any way relatable, or interesting for who they are rather than their thing.

    It’s like if the writers for STD wrote TNG, Riker would be a Klingon agent from a separatist group trying to undermine the high council, Data would have metal plates on his face and exposed wiring and every episode would feature a feat of strength, and Troi would be able to melt people’s brains.

    Part of the appeal of Star Trek for me is that the characters are just people for the most part in a fantastical setting.

    It’s fine that people like it, I gave it a fair shake though and don’t. Still, there’s loads of other Trek to watch so I’ll make do with that.

    #245513
    Warbodog
    Participant

    >STD

    They haven’t reached 500 films yet, but that gag will be a riot when they get there!

    Pedantry about abbreviation consistency in a Star Trek thread on Ganymede & Titan, whatever next?

    I’d be more down on Discovery if Enterprise hadn’t already broken things by going prequel. If Enterprise was my Red Dwarf VII disappointment, the JJ films would be my VIII (Beyond = Cassandra because it was quite good) and Discovery my Back to Earth, ‘salright. If the Picard series can be Red Dwarf X, that would be great.

    #245514
    Dave
    Participant

    I’m really enjoying Discovery, I think it’s a fun show that doesn’t take itself too seriously and is one of the few current shows not to fall victim to the Netflix problem of stretching everything plot development out way beyond its natural lifespan.

    Also, it’s always fun to read the utterly inconsistent moans of Star Trek fans complaining about how it’s too different to the original Star Trek despite being set in the same era, then it’s sticking too close to it and leaning on nostalgia too much, then it’s too po-faced, then it’s too light, then the characters are all dull and uninteresting, then the characters are all too over-the-top and broad…

    It’s almost as though longtime fans would complain about a new show no matter what.

    #245515
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Is it inconsistent, or just different criticisms coming from different people like me and GlenTokyo?

    There’s been so much Trek (700+ episodes before Discovery) that it’s hard for them to do much that doesn’t unintentionally remind of things that have happened before (season 1’s war was like a bloodier Deep Space Nine, season 2’s future apocalypse is like an arc in Enterprise). I’m glad they’re not doing another planet-of-the-week series at least, that was played out by the end of The Next Generation.

    I think there’s way too much reliance on continuity and references, which I don’t enjoy in anything, but if they are going to do that, I’m much happier that it’s the formerly obscure Pike era than the overdone Kirk era.

    Not the best, not the worst, and getting better. For this long-time fan anyway.

    #245518
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Searching the thread for opinions, it looks like 3 people are for Discovery (Dave probably enjoying it more than me and Quinn?) and 4 quite strongly against. All long-time fans except Dave. So not really as simple as fans hating the new series for being new, although that is probably how it looks online generally. I haven’t read or watched any reviews since it’s been airing, but a lot of the fan response was over-the-top toxic before the thing even came out.

    #245519

    I really didn’t enjoy series 1 of Discovery, just could not get into the Klingon’s or the war at all. I did however like the Mirror Universe stuff, that was cool

    I’m generally enjoying each weeks episodes of series 2, and I much prefer the story arc this year. It’s actually got me interested. Pike is fantastic. We’re getting more time with more subsidary characters – where Disco started out as more of a focus on 3 or 4 characters, this is feeling like a bit more of an ensemble with Michael still carrying the lead role. There’s been some brilliant adventure of the week episodes driven by the main plot, especially at the start. It’s generally a joy to watch.

    I don’t care it looks different (its 2019 get over it) and I don’t care that it isn’t just planet hoping and getting into fights with special anomalies, everyone would be bored if they did that, as Warbofrog said, that had run it’s course by the end of TNG and especially by the end of Voyager.

    I LOVED this weeks “previously on” acknowledging that all that stuff happened, and now we’re 50+ years later, yes we have actors, yes we have a new design, but this is a straight continuation of a story that was filmed in 65, not aired until the 80s, but has been considered canon due to it’s references throughout Trek.

    I actually re-watched The Cage before this weeks episode knowing it was going to plan a major role in it, and it reminded me why I never got to the end of series 1 of TOS because those shows are so bloody boring and slow.

    I know people hold up TOS as unquestionably the best Trek, but seriously, at this point there is sooooo much more Trek that is soooo much different to that, that TOS is really the odd one out.

    I don’t understand the complaining about the use of reference in Discovery. All Trek shows make references to the others at some point. They share a universe and are all part of the same Federation and space exploration team. Of course things will cross over. No-one is complaining about a new Picard series, so why complain when Discovery re-uses characters or references stories from things that were last shown 50 years ago?

    I also really really enjoy the Kelvinverse films.

    That’s all I have to say for now. Sorry. Bye bye. Sorry. Bye.

    #245522
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Enterprise and Discovery have been heavier on the continuity and established characters than TNG, DS9 and Voyager that crafted their own worlds, some going to other sides of the galaxy to find new stories. But thinking back, there probably is more referencing in the 90s than I remembered (spoilers) – Voyager had recurring TNG characters later on and DS9 had the mirror universe. But I didn’t really like those things back then either, so at least I’m consistent.

    I like TOS but don’t watch much of it for pleasure, there’s only around 5-10 I’d really care about watching again. I probably would’ve preferred a series with Pike & co rather than starting again with Kirk, but then we wouldn’t have the TOS films which are some of my favourite Trek and much stronger than the old series (same can’t be said for TNG’s films sadly).

    #245523

    The mirror universe stuff in DS9 does get tiresome, it’s fun maybe once but when it starts to happen once a series it can get in the bin

    The TOS films are far superior to the series, but I still prefer TNG crew. Maybe because I was raised on them I don’t know.

    #245524
    Dave
    Participant

    Yes, just to be clear my comments were about the larger fandom responses that I’ve read online, not directed to people in this thread specifically. No offence intended!

    #245525
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Doesn’t really matter that it’s set nearby to Kirk Trek when the tone is so different. A dog and a cat sat in the same box are not the same.

    When it comes to redesigning and recasting etc, I have no issue, obviously people get old and die, and for example the Enterprise redesign didn’t bother me at all because it had a recognisable layout but you could make a leap of faith because it looked more like our technology, loads of buttons, flat panel screens.

    Discovery’s redesign is too far into the JJ realm to exist in the same universe as the TV shows, I get that you have to update it but do we really need Tony Stark style holographics?

    It’s not like it makes me angry when I see it, just intensely disappointed.

    #245903
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Finished TNG now, fantastic. I really enjoyed 5, 6 and 7, whereas conventional wisdom would suggest shows weaken towards the end.

    Anyway, moved onto DS9 now, onto season 2 and look who it is, Tim motherfunking Russ, as a Klingon. Tim Russ is Star Trek.

    #245904
    Warbodog
    Participant

    That Tim Russ episode is the inevitable decline after a very strong run of episodes, I think (Duet to The Siege) where DS9 finally started living up to its premise. Season 2 is definitely better than season one, not so many pound-shop-TNG possession/technobabble plots any more.

    #245905
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    The main thing I’m enjoying more about season 2 over season 1 is the improvement in picture quality. Christ knows what they filmed season 1 on, but even in SD you can see a massive improvement.

    I probably haven’t watched DS9 since it was still regularly on terrestrial TV, same with TNG really, I had the odd series on VHS and DVD but I was more of a Voyager person, I remember seeing the adverts for the start of VOY so it was “my Star Trek” I suppose.

    Also I bloody love the runabouts and general special effects in DS9, some great shots. Much more adventurous than your starship based series, saying that though, I hate that they added hilariously oversized spacewalking engineers on the opening titles, so that’s a blot on the FX teams copybook.

    #245906
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Good to know about the picture quality. I only bought season 3+ on DVD at the time, because the sets were expensive so I had to be selective, and those always looked fine to me. Just a bit fuzzy around light sources.

    The Defiant’s scale is all over the place once that shows up, but it’s not something I really noticed when watching.

    #245907
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    It’s much better, it’s obviously SD but apart from a bit of vaseline esque glowing and a smidge of chromatic aberration on some of the establishing shots it’s fine.

    Image quality wise, season 1 looked like it was shot on one inch tape by BBC Manchester in the late 80s, 2 is like it was shot on a decent digital cassette format by the BBC in the late 90s.

    Would love to see them get the TNG HD makeover though, eagerly anticipating that documentary to see how it looks, and see how much support that drums up.

    #246114
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    The list of potential actors for Star Trek in the late 80s to mid 90s really was just a post it with a few names on it wasn’t it?

    Just watched an episode of DS9, and the child actor is the girl with the imaginary friend from TNG, and I’m almost certain that her mother is the alien scientist from VOY Body and Soul, although unfortunately it’s just a background artist part so she’s not named. I’m pretty sure though.

    It’s really odd, I suppose you wouldn’t watch them in the manner we do today, binge watching multiple series in close proximity, but still I can’t imagine say, Sean Bean being cast as another character in a later series of Game Of Thrones.

    It’s quite charming in a way, they’re “The Star Trek Players” and who knows who they’ll be week to week.

    #246115
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Same thing happened in The X-Files, you’d have someone play a one-off role who they liked and cast again as a major recurring character shortly after, so it’s distracting when you see the earlier episode again. Terry O’Quinn was their version of Jeffrey Combs, playing three different characters in X-Files who look the same plus a major recurring role in spin-off Millennium.

    ^ Somehow not the same guy. Didn’t even bother to shave.

    #246223
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Doctor Who is great for re-using actors. Peter Miles played Nyder in Genesis of the Daleks, Dr Charles Lawrence in Doctor Who and the Silurians and Professor Whitaker in Invasion of the Dinosaurs, within 4 years. Martin Jarvis plays Hilio in The Web Planet, Butler in Invasion of the Dinosaurs and the governer of Varos in Vengeance On Varos. Freema Agyeman, Karen Gillan and of course Peter Capaldi have all played multiple roles in New Who, as have Mark Gatiss and Eve Myles. Lalla Ward appeared in the final story of Season 16 of Classic Who before going on to play Romana in 17 and 18. Colin Baker playing Maxill before The Sixth Doctor. Clive Swift, Nicholas Courtney, the list goes on, and on.

    #246491
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    DS9 reference watch.

    ”Distant Voices”

    Not only a concept very similar to Confidence and Paranoia, with actual reference to those self same aspects of character, but a reference to another BBC sitcom that was big at the time. Within a minute or so one character says “One Foot in the Grave” and another “I don’t believe it”. Coincidence? Surely not.

    #246492
    Warbodog
    Participant

    You’re storming through! Soon to hit the ‘Improbable Cause’ two-parter, which for me has always been the turning point where DS9 becomes great.

    #246493
    Warbodog
    Participant

    “Odo, you embody my suspicions and fears. And Dax, to me you’ve always represented confidence and a sense of adventure.”

    Yeah, that is similar. I never made the connection and it doesn’t seem to have been picked up on before. Plus, “Confidence” is played by American Cat (II) and “Paranoia” is drippy like a yoghurt, blatant.

    #246494
    Warbodog
    Participant

    #246497
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Kira calls him a paranoid just before that exchange between Julian and them all. With the Jupiter Mining Corporation and Diva Droid given berths on the promenade I wonder if it was just the set designers or the writing team that knew of Red Dwarf.

    I’m barrelling through for a couple of reasons, mostly because I’m really enjoying it but also because I don’t like things to drag on, it’s like when I play games, 60 hours in a week, sacrifice a bit of sleep and use all my free time.

    #246498

    Michael Okuda was the main design guy across all of Trek right? And it’d be him or his staff that snuck those little details in

    #246590
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Everyone thinks the season 4 theme remix is appalling right?

    Worse than Enterprise’s remix and that’s saying something.

    #246591
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Don’t know what everyone thinks, but it is too fast, even if it’s the main version I’m used to. As a syndicated series, DS9 had minimal network interference compared to Voyager and Enterprise on UPN, but most of that interference was concentrated at the start of season 4. This probably included a memo to speed up the theme tune to make it more exciting. Others were the new character introduction and to focus more on that famous old-school alien race rather than the new ones they’d been developing.

    Fortunately, Ira Behr & co managed to work with the studio’s demands and make DS9 even better in spite of them (they gradually get back to the original plan by season 5). The season 4 opener might be my favourite episode of all, not so much for the main story but for all those little character scenes. Quark & Garak’s laboured root beer simile, Bashir & O’Brien pissing about trying to pop peas into their mouths oblivious to the wider events happening around them, it’s like a second pilot for the rest of DS9. The “proper” DS9 most fans think of. With a silly sped-up theme tune.

    #246592
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I read that it was a conscious decision to make the series feel more alive, similar to Red Dwarf I suppose for series III. It was no longer about the loneliness in both, Red Dwarf just dispensed with the more dramatic elements and DS9 wasn’t a half empty outpost trying to stabilise itself and the Bajoran people, it was thriving so they added more ships to the titles and ruined the theme.

    That could be cobblers obviously but who knows. It’s not that it’s sped up really though, and it actually starts quite well with a bit more orchestration, it’s the fact that the background squelchy bass stuff is at a completely different tempo to the theme. It’s like two songs playing at once and it’s horrible, which is a shame because they’re great opening titles.

    If I read any of the above on this thread I can only apologise, my memory is not what it once was haha

    #246593
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    It was a great character episode I agree, although I was somewhat destracted by O’Brien having grown a mullet between seasons haha..

    I think what I’m enjoying most about DS9 is that you’re rewarded for your viewing with the little plot points that they don’t keep ramming in your face but crop up naturally and you go “aaaaahhh yes, I remember so-and-so said this”, other TV series and especially TV series today fall over themselves pointing little things out to you to make themselves appear to have a clever and well developed universe, so much so that the little things end up being the things that everyone talks about after the show.

    #246594
    Warbodog
    Participant

    The Dominion first being referenced in a Ferengi episode of all places shows how much you can’t afford to skip “filler” DS9 episodes (except most of season 1).

    It’s not a rigidly-plotted novel like a Babylon 5, they sometimes get inspired to spin a whole character arc out of a throwaway piece of dialogue in an earlier episode and they adapt to what works as it goes along. I doubt there were too many people missing the heavy Bajoran focus after season 2, keeping that up would have been duller (even if I some of those episodes are good).

    #246596
    Warbodog
    Participant

    (DS9 spoilers if anyone still cares)

    Watching select clips from late season 3, when things really kicked off.

    “After today, the only real threat to us from the Alpha Quadrant are the Klingons and the Federation, and I doubt that either of them will be a threat for much longer.”

    So even though the subsequent Klingon arc feels a bit forced and out of place, it still fits their plan. They planned it. Probably just would have been less prominent if they hadn’t needed to justify bringing in a new character.

    #246623
    Ridley
    Participant

    I’m slowly making my way through a rewatch of Voyager while viewing DS9 and Discovery for the first (and likely only) time.

    Also DS9 spoilers:

    Having bashirisshapeshifter two-parter right before an episode about using the character as a template to make copies of them throughout the quieter parts of Starfleet is not great planning.

    #246624
    Warbodog
    Participant

    (Spoilers cont.)

    The Bashir double-whammy is one of the prime examples of their making-it-up-as-we-go-along approach not being so successful, since both twists cause problems or at least mild irritations in hindsight (especially for that Confidence & Paranoia episode discussed earlier). The actor wasn’t aware of either revelation until he was filming the episodes, so don’t bother looking for any subtle foreshadowing in his earlier performances.

    I don’t really mind, because In Purgatory’s Shadow / By Inferno’s Light is so good. I overwatched that two-parter on video, season five is so damned tense.

    Seems like a lot of people found DS9 off-putting at the time (that’s partly the idea) and are only coming to it now. I came in just when it was getting good in season 3, so got to skip the shaky seasons and was hooked right away (caught up later).

    #246665
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    (Spoilers)

    Yeah, the Bashirling thing doesn’t make sense in retrospect. We’re led to presume that it’s this Bashir who performed the delicate brain surgery on Captain Sisko in ‘Rapture’ and didn’t take the opportunity to kill him with a slip of the scalpel.

    #247015
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Just an unrelated point, I’ll come back and read the spoilers when I’ve finished watching DS9 but I was just thinking, when Voyager got launched to the Delta quadrant, why didn’t they try to go into the Gamma quadrant and use the wormhole? The first episode of Voyager is on DS9, so the wormhole is open for business, Janeway knows this, and the Delta quadrant is so much closer to the Gamma quadrant than the Alpha. In fact on the Star Trek star charts, Voyager ends up at 1 o’clock on the outer rim of the Delta quadrant and the wormhole is at 10 o’clock in the Gamma. A long way still, but closer than going through the Delta and Beta to get to the Alpha.

    There’s the Dominion to throw a spanner in the works but it could have been a plot point, maybe they had to turn around or summat.

    Anyway, just a thought.

    #247022

    I’ve read answers to this questions before. One of the prevailing thoughts is that it isn’t in the direction they need to go.

    Until the discovery of the Bajoran Wormhole, all other wormholes have proven to be unstable. They have only known about the Bajoran Wormhole for a couple of years, if not less, by the time Voyager is stranded in the Delta Quadrant. They have no reason to believe that just because it has remained stable longer than previous wormholes, that it will continue to remain stable after the decades it would take to reach it. Whilst it is closer to where Voyager is stranded, it’s not close enough to risk it, it is still tens of thousands of light years in the wrong direction. If they were to get there and find it collapsed, they would have wasted so much valuable time to get home.

    They also have no reason to believe they won’t find another short cut back. The Caretaker’s array and the wormhole are two recent discoveries that have proved to be able to transport ships vast distances in seconds. Between Voyager and Earth it’s possible they will find another such shortcut, and if not, at least they’re heading in the right direction and will be home eventually.

    As it is, they do discover technologies and beings capable of shortening their journey, so they made the correct choice.

    #247096
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Surely Janeway would know about the Prophets and Sisko and the wormhole being stable, or more stable and more real than any potential wormhole? Starfleet obviously believe in the stability of the wormhole because they’ve commited men and equipment. You’d go for facts now than potential later surely. I get the heading in the right direction for home bit but in reality, if they travelled at max warp constantly which is unrealistic, they’d all be either dead or well past 100 when they got home.

    Anyway, it wouldn’t have worked because they’d have been destroyed by the Dominion, but it would have seemed less of a cop out/more synergistic to go through the Bajoran wormhole than join the Borg version of the M1, to me anyway.

    #247097
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    We’re coming up on a month now of me just not bothering to watch Trek

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