Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum The Doctor Who Spoilers Thread – Part II

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  • #81373
    Andrew
    Participant

    Empty Dances > Human of Blood > Silence in the Forest > The Impossible Pit

    I’m still struggling to choose between them. I rewatched Empty Dances recently and found the first section to be a touch hasty and far-fetched in the set-up (people meeting people, Doc and Rose separated), but the whole thing to be especially awesome in in its second half.

    The Moffats seem to be better in their second halves, with the others best up front, but…nope, that still gives me an even score. Impossible Pit gets points knocked off for a cheat in the cliffhanger (a POV shot turning out to be nothing of the sort), I suppose.

    #81379
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Midnight, then: loved it. I was sure that the Moffat two-parter would signify a huge leap in quality for S4, and this just confirms it.

    Odd to think it’s the first RTD episode since Partners in Crime, of all things!

    #81380
    Ridley
    Participant

    Marooned it wasn’t.

    #81381
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Didn’t really like the opening, didn’t really like the ending, but the middle chunk was brilliantly tense and claustrophobic. Given that the entire format of the episode was basically forced on it by circumstance, it all felt remarkably deliberate.

    I mean… that was basically the Doctor lite episode, wasn’t it? Okay, so it had the Doctor in it, and next week’s doesn’t, but next week is obviously the one that’s had all the effort and expense put in – and this is the little quirky one that was shot simultaneously. Not half bad for a late replacement script, either.

    #81382
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > Marooned it wasn?t.

    Your FACE isn’t Marooned.

    #81383
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Oh, it wasn’t nearly as good as Marooned. But then, very little telly is!

    #81384
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Anyway, I loved that episode. It was basically everything 42 was trying to be with the terrified and later possessed Doctor and a real feeling of cabin fever.

    Also, it was like the whole episode ended with all its loose ends still flailing about wildly, but in a good way! We have no idea what the things is, why it was after Sky, what the greater details of the planet Midnight are…

    All the RTD elements were present and correct (the collection of personalities, comparing The Doctor’s nature to human nature) but it was all twisted back and forth.

    ALSO, THE BIT YOU’VE BEEN WAITING FOR:

    Blink > Midnight > Father’s Day > Love & Monsters

    (A bit odd that Father’s Day has been lumped in with the bottles, mind…)

    #81385
    Andrew
    Participant

    That was very, very decent. Such a smart idea – the old ‘actors in a locked room’ thing, but using a VOCAL trick your monster. Very nifty. (See also Dwarfish concepts simply plucked from the edit suite seen in Backwards, Back in the Red 3 and Only the Good.) I’ve always said it – performance is the best special effect.

    That said, I wouldn’t have minded a few more exterior shots…

    More people, less SF. It’s RTD’s stronger suit. Wish this ep had been in series one and provoked more like it.

    So, next week we have – BARELY A SPOILER – Rose coming back. Suspect this will stand more or less alone, though, and only serve to bring her back for the ACTUAL big story the week after. So – a Donna episode. I’ll be happy, and John will weep…

    #81386
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Not half bad for a late replacement script, either.

    Info please!

    #81387
    John Hoare
    Participant

    So – a Donna episode. I?ll be happy, and John will weep?

    Although – apart from the early stuff – I didn’t mind her in Forest of the Library.

    So it depends whether she spends too long doing the comedy stuff I’m not keen on, or does the more serious acting stuff she did in the last two-parter.

    #81389
    John Hoare
    Participant

    That said, I wouldn?t have minded a few more exterior shots?

    Partly not done for expense, obviously… but even if they could have afforded it, I don’t think it’d be needed. I think the lack of exterior shots heightened the tension – and also made sure that we only saw what the characters saw. (Most obviously, the only time we *really* get an exterior shot once everybody is contained is when we see the world through the windscreen – and we see no more than the characters when the shield has to come down…)

    And an exterior shot during the shuttle being overturned would probably have given too much away about the threat, which RTD seemed determined not to tell us about – even at the end!

    #81390
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >> Not half bad for a late replacement script, either.

    >Info please!

    It was supposed to be a Tom Macrae script, of which I’ve read two drafts and which was actually rather good. But it got dropped late on, apparently (this is the “official” reason given by RTD in Production Notes) for being too similar to Unicorn and the Wasp (which is weird – the only real similarity is the presence of a big country house). It’s better than TUATW, as it happens, although obviously I can only speak in terms of the script and not the execution. So RTD knocked up this one instead.

    #81392
    pfm
    Participant

    > We have no idea what the things is, why it was after Sky, what the greater details of the planet Midnight are?

    This needs to happen MORE. We don’t need every last bloody thing explained, especially when there’s only 44 minutes to deal with an entirely contained story.

    I really loved this one, mainly because RTD went for something brilliantly different (for new Who, at least). I’m sure he’s been saving Lesley Sharp as his secret weapon, and rightly so, she was PERFECT for this. It was also great to see David Troughton. Flippin’ ‘eck, if they ever wanted the 2nd Doctor to make an appearance he could easily stand in for his father, he’s just like him! Afaik they didn’t throw in a cheeky reference though. It’s probably for the best.

    #81396
    Ridley
    Participant

    For me, the good bits were diluted by the constant repetition when I realised that’s all the episode was going to be.

    It was padding.

    #81399
    Andrew
    Participant

    Ta Seb!

    > It was supposed to be a Tom Macrae script

    After that cyber two-parter, I can’t say I’m sorry this didn’t happen…

    Anyone else find it odd that Edge of Destruction wasn’t cited in Confidential?

    #81400
    John Hoare
    Participant

    It was padding.

    One man’s padding is another man’s tension-building…

    #81401
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >if they ever wanted the 2nd Doctor to make an appearance he could easily stand in for his father, he?s just like him!

    I thought exactly this, yes.

    #81402
    Ridley
    Participant

    [Spall]No, no, no…[/Spall]

    #81406
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    I loved this one as well, and it wasn’t until I was watching Confidential that David Troughton’s caption came up and I realised why John and I found him so familiar :) It’s interesting how Michael Troughton doesn’t look half so much like Patrick as his brother.

    #81408
    Andrew
    Participant

    > it wasn?t until I was watching Confidential that David Troughton?s caption came up and I realised why John and I found him so familiar

    I had the same feeling – but it was due to his appearances in Drop the Dead Donkey!

    #81411
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I liked the tension building with the rapping on the walls and all. Possessing alien…. bit overdone, but at least the take on it wasn’t bad. The repetition thing, though, whilst an interesting idea, really bored me after a while and I found the people shrieking at each other very irritating. For me this was the worst episode of this series so far. Since I’ve liked all the other episodes though, thats still a plus for the series as a whole.

    I liked the idea of a diamond planet though.

    #81412
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    The first 15 minutes were awful and I was getting rather worried. And then it got REALLY good. It didn’t go anywhere but I assume we’ll get some kind of explanation soonish.

    Easily RTD’s best effort since Utopia.

    #81418
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    Chris M, you appear to have missed the whole point of the episode. It’s all about paranoia, prejudice and mob rule. The repetition was used because it annoys and frightens just about every human on the planet, and we still don’t really know why.

    #81419
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >For me this was the worst episode of this series so far.

    I’ve got to say, I find this staggering, in a series that’s given us Partners in Crime, the Sontaran Strategem and The Doctor’s Daughter.

    This was one of the absolute best non-finale RTD scripts, up there with (and possibly superior to) Gridlock (what is it about Russell when he forces things into claustrophobic environments? Is it that he’s best when he has to focus on small character interactions rather than big epic stuff? It makes me excited for when he’ll just be doing the odd episode and not overseeing the series, anyway, because I think Moffat will force him to focus on what he does best). Were it not for the dodgy opening and (David Troughton and Lesley Sharp honourably excepted) a slightly weak supporting cast, I’d put this above the Moffat eps as the best so far this year.

    #81420
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    > It was supposed to be a Tom Macrae script

    After that cyber two-parter, I can?t say I?m sorry this didn?t happen…

    I’d imagine most people would think this, which is why it was such a surprise that C****** H**** turned out to be such a good script…

    #81423
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I pointed out to Rachel last night that it was ironic that, having watched most of this series with me, she ended up missing an episode that would have been right down her street.

    To my amazement, I came downstairs this morning to find her watching it on iPlayer. And she thought it was pretty much the best episode of Who she’s ever seen…

    #81425
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Chris M, you appear to have missed the whole point of the episode. It?s all about paranoia, prejudice and mob rule.

    Please, call me Chris, Tanya Jones. ;)

    I got the point (more or less) I just found it rather boring. I’m not saying it was bad structurally speaking. More an emotional reaction really.

    As another example, it made sense in Shawn of the Dead that the guys would start yelling at each other in the pub (although the holding pointy bits at each others throats was a bit much) but it still irritated me. (Good film overall though.)

    #81429
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Is it that he?s best when he has to focus on small character interactions rather than big epic stuff?

    I think this is certainly the case, though typically I don’t think Gridlock’s a good example. The guy’s great at…well, humanity, at writing for regular folks in crisis. He’s a drama writer first, comedy second, and SF third (for me, atleast). As I say, it’s maybe a shame that we’ve found a way to reconcile his more usual writing style with his Whoniverse this late.

    I thought the cast were great, too. And the opening worked for me – a smart way to have people convincingly bond, and a chance to get to know and like everyone by laughing with them, before the mayhem began.

    #81430
    Andrew
    Participant

    Seeing several reviews refer to this episode as ‘filler’ is really pissing me off, too.

    How is it filler? Because it’s self-contained? Because MOST episodes are self-contained? Or could it be…because there’s no Big Monster? It’s a dense criticism, and I can only think it comes from an idea that ‘human conflict’ somehow isn’t dramatic enough – as if there’s anything MORE dramatic when done right, as this was.

    Even weirder, some AICN reviews have referred to RTD as ‘trying to be like Moffat’. Which is dumb on a whole new level – this was Davies writing as close to his ‘old’ style as he ever has on Who. Moffat’s a genius, but his claim to fame is not, generally, this kind of stuff.

    #81431
    John Hoare
    Participant

    The guy?s great at?well, humanity, at writing for regular folks in crisis. He?s a drama writer first, comedy second, and SF third (for me, atleast). As I say, it?s maybe a shame that we?ve found a way to reconcile his more usual writing style with his Whoniverse this late.

    This is one reason why I love Love & Monsters so much.

    Having said that, I still love every single one of his series finales (Last of the Time Lords being his weakest, and even then, I seem to have enjoyed it far more than most).

    #81432
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Seeing several reviews refer to this episode as ?filler? is really pissing me off, too.

    That’s pathetic. It’s criticism from people who want to appear intelligent, when they haven’t got the first clue about what they’re talking about.

    There’s all kinds of legitimate points you could make against the episode, but being filler is NOT one of them.

    #81434
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    This was killer, not filler! Could have done without the captions through (“200 klicks later” or whatever) but I guess the light-hearted (and rather dull) stuff at the beginning was quite a clever contrast with the rest of the episode.

    As someone who liked Utopia but was exasperated with the final two parter last year, I’m slightly anxious about the big finale.

    #81437
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Ain’t It Cool News is full of idiots, though. The main writers are (mostly) bad enough – but stuff like the Who reviews just get sent in (and usually not edited) by people who aren’t even proper writers, they’re just average commenters. And the average AICN talkbacker is the absolute worst kind of cretin.

    #81438
    Ridley
    Participant

    (Last of the Time Lords being his weakest, and even then, I seem to have enjoyed it far more than most).

    I didn’t like the big reset button.

    Guess reviews are saying filler because they know it was a replacement script. It should stay self contained or the ending is undermimed. (“He’s right it should!” “It should yeah!” “I agree!”)

    #81440
    Jonsmad
    Participant

    I was worriedly expecting boredom, after finding from last weeks preview clips that this would be set entirely inside one set. This despite loving David Renwick’s Beast in The Cage episode of one foot in the grave, and many other examples of this kind of closed setting.

    Far from it, It was the most edge of my seat viewing Ive had since watching the Empty Child. It built up the mystery and tension and danger brilliantly. Portraying possession by an intelligence and human nature as the enemys in really great performances. That culminate in that line “I told you it was her.” I’m sure they ignored saying anything about this being more like real life and the modern world for fear of any media flack, but it felt very London tube bombings or plane hijacking to me.

    Unlike Pete I dont expect any follow up though. A lot the new series is about hiding threads, like another mention of a lost planet/moon and rose’s face again, but I dont think the monster of midnight is anything like that.

    Can someone tell me if going to the back on the room counts as the shortest dr who running ever in an episode :-), and killing the entertainment system was an injoke against Eurovision time slot problems surely.

    Felt weird the dr not using his Tardis to make the trip, but I think they sold the idea of it’s being leisure or his wanting to talk to people about it enough.

    And I think david troughton being called “the professor” is a slight nod to the heritage there, though not a very knowing or obvious one.

    Nigel Kenedy eletric violin who theme.
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4NCfM8UGkq0

    #81441
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I don’t expect any follow up either. I think the whole point was the reactions of the crew – any details about the actual monster are irrelevant.

    #81445
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Yeah, maybe. I’d had liked some elaboration (or justification) for why the Hostess valiantly sacrificed her own life to save the Doctor. The bit where he asked everyone if they knew her name was nice but her selflessness just seemed a bit strange. I guess it was just stating that, away from mob mentality, humans aren’t all bad.

    I just, rather foolishly, watched Hannibal Rising which I’ve already forgotten about. Midnight was scarier and more tense in 45 minutes than that bloated 2 hour mess of a movie.

    #81446
    Andrew
    Participant

    > they?re just average commenters.

    I know. But everyone’s entitled, blah blah blah…

    What does that make us? Extraordinary commentors? :-)

    > And the average AICN talkbacker is the absolute worst kind of cretin.

    This much is painfully true.

    > Guess reviews are saying filler because they know it was a replacement script.

    I don’t think so. It’s not THAT well known, and the AICN reviews all cluster around the phrase without ever mentioning the replacement status, or how the other writer would have done better.

    > Felt weird the dr not using his Tardis to make the trip, but I think they sold the idea of it?s being leisure

    That and how if he’d just stepped out of the TARDIS to see the sapphire waterfall, he would have died.

    > Nigel Kenedy eletric violin who theme.

    Don’t. Ever. Do. That. Again.

    > any details about the actual monster are irrelevant.

    This. Yes.

    The ‘villain’ this week was fear, paranoia, human nature. The life-form’s origin, whatever it was, is the story equivalent of Romero’s zombie plague starting for no reason. No revelation, no discovery, would have improved the episode.

    #81448
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Guess reviews are saying filler because they know it was a replacement script. It should stay self contained or the ending is undermimed. (?He?s right it should!? ?It should yeah!? ?I agree!?)

    Along with that famous term that one can only say in Latin (shall I say it? Shall I? Hold back Andrew… I’m such a tease… I won’t ;) ) ‘filler’ is one of those terms (or ‘words’ in this case) that is way overused I think. Which isn’t really fair, or accurate considering the effort that’s gone into the production.

    Ironically it could be said, the word ‘filler’ has become ‘filler’. See what I did there?

    #81449
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I know. But everyone?s entitled, blah blah blah?

    What does that make us? Extraordinary commentors? :-)

    Well no, but there’s a difference between a reviewer that’s commissioned for a website and writes a review to a specific structure and specification, and accepts that it will be submitted to an editor or subeditor who may work on it; and someone who just emails in a bashed-out opinion to a website and gets it published straight away. When “Herc” posts those “review” pages, they’re pretty much just glorified comment threads, with the few people who happened to email him first given precedence.

    #81451
    Andrew
    Participant

    Here, hang on, I LIKED being extraordinary!

    I’m not suggesting that a creditable media mind working for a major newspaper is the same, at all. But…really, writing your own review and sending to AICN is essentially akin to writing something and posting it on your own blog…or review website. No matter how gag-worthy a thought that is. Plus it’s not like it’s the writing and editing of the review I’m irked by, rather the stupidity of the content – and Total Film can get the same reaction from me on that score.

    I’m not suggesting those AICN things are creditable reviews. Sadly, I think I’m, saying that we’re just as UNcreditable as they are. Despite being far more correct. :-)

    #81452
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Hey, some of my reviews get published by a major magazine publisher, thanks ;-)

    #81467
    si
    Participant

    Major Spoiler from the BBC press office for those who haven’t read it anywhere else (although we all knew about most of what’s happening):

    4.12: The Stolen Earth

    Earth’s greatest heroes assemble in a time of dire need, in tonight’s penultimate episode in this series of Russell T Davies’s Bafta Award-winning time-travelling drama. But can the Doctor’s secret army defeat the might of the new Dalek Empire?

    With battles on the streets and in the skies, the Doctor and Donna must brave the Shadow Proclamation to find out the truth. However, a fearsome old enemy waits in the shadows…

    Wonder who that could be?

    #81470
    pfm
    Participant

    Davros.

    #81476

    > Davros.

    Well this is the first I’ve heard about it.

    #81478
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Watched Midnight again and would agree that any explanations are unlikely (still not happy with the Hostess killing herself regardless of her realization that The Doctor was innocent).

    I think I was under the impression that this was leading up to the finale, what with it being an RTD episode at the tail end of the season. With that in mind, it’s surprising that they stuck such a good episode towards the end of the run; small-scale or not.

    #81482
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I must admit, I thought we were in for a big four-parter, too – albeit with the first part mainly connecting to the others via a cliffhanger (like the end of The Poison Sky) rather than through the whole episode.

    #81483
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I think I was under the impression that this was leading up to the finale, what with it being an RTD episode at the tail end of the season

    I wondered how many people would think that, if they didn’t know that it was only at the last minute that he’d written it…

    #81485
    Andrew
    Participant

    I hadn’t expected it based on the released titles and info – the names didn’t seem connected, and it felt unlikely that ‘part three’ of a story would have its name kept under wraps (and/or be left so undecided behind the scenes), as opposed to part one of a two-parter. And, the pre-finale RTD eps (Boom Town, Love and Monsters) have generally stood more or less alone.

    Plus it became increasingly clear that the ‘Doctor lite’ episode was being split, and I couldn’t see that fitting with the front-end of a four-parter. It looks like Turn Left will be a Rose-return ep that’s not otherwise especially connected to the final story. (In the same way Utopia is about bringing Jack and the Master back, alongside a ‘save the humans’ plot – it’s not really part one of the final story.)

    #81486
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Hmmm. I appear to have an image of Donna as my desktop wallpaper. I’m losing it – I really am.

    I’m CONVINCED now that if the series had started with Fires of Pompeii, I’d have been happy with the character from the start!

    #81506
    pfm
    Participant

    > I?m losing it – I really am

    Coming to your senses more like. She was the only thing keeping me going through stuff like TU&TW.

    #81517
    Somebody
    Participant

    > I wondered how many people would think that, if they didn?t know that it was only at the last minute that he?d written it?

    Wait… didn’t he say he keeps “three or four” scripts in a drawer for just such an eventuality?

    Notice how the companion is sidelined, and forget about Turn Left for a moment. It wouldn’t take much to rewrite Donna’s brief scenes for Rose, or Martha…

    #81519
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Well, alright then… let’s say “at the last minute that he’d put it into the series”. The point about it not linking up with the main arc still stands ;-)

    You may be on to something there, though, as the quality and sharpness of the script certainly didn’t feel like a rush-job. That was a proper piece of human drama that had had a lot of thought put into its execution, even while the ideas were left deliberately vague.

    #81520
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    In an attempt to Learn French While He Slept gone awry, Andrew is now only capable of saying…
    (In the same way Utopia is about bringing Jack and the Master back, alongside a ?save the humans? plot – it?s not really part one of the final story.)

    Except that the entire “Utopia” thing – the promise of a continued existence in dying Universe – directly led to the creation of the Toclafane, which is a major plotpoint of The Sound Of Drums and The Last Of The Time Lords.

    #81527
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Except that the entire ?Utopia? thing – the promise of a continued existence in dying Universe – directly led to the creation of the Toclafane, which is a major plotpoint of The Sound Of Drums and The Last Of The Time Lords.

    Right. But that’s like saying the series two finale is the end of a four-parter with the cybermen story. Continuing threads are to be expected in a series, and you COULD have put episodes between Utopia and the finale, more or less…but NOT between Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords.

    #81529
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > but NOT between Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords.

    Well, apart from lots of episodes covering the year under The Master’s control ;)

    #81530
    Somebody
    Participant

    Andrew:
    …you COULD have put episodes between Utopia and the finale, more or less?

    Uh-huh? Tardisless episodes, of course…

    #81531
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Well, apart from lots of episodes covering the year under The Master?s control ;)

    Fair point. But…bah, you know what I mean!

    > Uh-huh? Tardisless episodes, of course?

    cf The Sontaran Experiment and Genesis of the Daleks. Thanks.

    #81535
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Utopia had a “to be continued”, though, and Sound of Drums continued DIRECTLY from it (where would you put episodes between them? One ends with them about to be got by the Futurekind. The other begins with them escaping the Futurekind and jumping back to Earth). It’s definitely a three-parter, no question about it. It’s just that we were sold a dummy – and, as Julian so memorably put it, we were completely satisfied with the price negotiated.

    #81537
    Andrew
    Participant

    > where would you put episodes between them? One ends with them about to be got by the Futurekind. The other begins with them escaping the Futurekind and jumping back to Earth

    To repeat myself: “Bah, you know what I mean!” :-)

    Of course they literally fit together. So does the end of The Poison Sky to the start of The Doctor’s Daughter. But with minimal rewrite, Utopia COULD have happened mid-season. (And you could put ‘to be continued’ at the end of every new Who story if you really wanted to.)

    You know how Invasion of Time is a six parter, but really a four-part story and then a two-part story? I dunno, Utopia feels like the teaser at the start of a Bond or an Indy movie. It’s a set-up story about a different villain and a different problem taking place on a different world. But with parallel-cybermen-style set-up.

    I’m not saying it’s definitely NOT a three-part story, I’m just saying you can see it a couple of ways – and that either way, it informs the possible understanding of how Turn Left may fit in.

    #81538
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Bah, we know what you mean. (Mustn’t forget the->) :-)

    Just kidding. Must’ve slipped into ‘smart-ass’ mode for a moment there. Possibly without the ‘smart’ bit. Damn these diodes…

    Purely from what I’ve seen of the little preview I reckon the next episode will be something like that. I.e. a different monster and story (to the finale), but leading pretty quickly into the finale episodes, connected in continuity surely, but probably just by Rose and of course the time-frame (from the characters’ and viewers’ point of view I mean, not timeline the events occur.)

    Course if the next episode is as ‘Doctor-light’ (or ‘lite’ as people seem to like to spell it…grrrr) as it looks, then there could be an overlap of time from different perspectives. In which case the next episode could be the equivalent of Martha mucking about with the Gaff (or whatever the fishy-folk were called.) but still separate stories in their own right. (Parallel events I mean, that wasn’t a judgment on the Martha section of Doctor’s Daughter.)

    Anyway, just a couple of days to go now…

    #81539
    Andrew
    Participant

    Let’s talk for a moment about the Turn Left clip posted on the BBC Who site right now…

    I get the marketing logic in showing ‘the Doctor is dead’ as a lead-in. Very enticing. But it’s a bit of a mistake otherwise.

    Firstly – and SPOILERS HERE! – there’s a line of dialogue right up front that tells you exactly what’s really going on, and sucks all the concern out of the thing. “Big red spider”, “flood” – gotcha.

    Added to which, there’s a very poor ADR line whacked in there saying “It must have happened to fast for him to regenerate”. Which is so blatantly a last-minute fix that…well, it makes me worry about how under-thought the rest of the thing might be. Especially when the spoiler above puts us on fairly well-worn, been-here-before SF territory.

    I’ve never been and RTD nay-sayer, and I suspect I’ll still enjoy the ep, but I think that’s a really duff clip choice. Worse, in many ways, than the usual week-early monster reveals, because it’s LESSENED my anticipation.

    #81540
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I’ve heard rumours about all the knock-on effects of what happens, though, and it sounds pretty good fun.

    I don’t think there was ever any concern about “OMG THE DOCTOR’S DEAD!” once you have any kind of inkling what the story’s about. Like he’s NOT going to be back for the finale? Come on…

    #81541
    Andrew
    Participant

    > I?ve heard rumours about all the knock-on effects of what happens, though, and it sounds pretty good fun.

    Well, as I say, I don’t expect the episode to be poor. Just that the clip choice is a mistake.

    > Like he?s NOT going to be back for the finale? Come on?

    Well sure, but the WAY that gets resolved…well, I was curious as to how that would work. Now that one clip, when combined with the title, has already answered the question they’re clearly intending to use as a tease. In one fell swoop, they’ve taken the teaser they had and neutralised it.

    #81542
    pfm
    Participant

    Watching that clip, can I just say again how fucking (and that’s swearing) great it is to have the ‘President Flavia’ theme back in the series. That won’t be the Doctor on the stretcher.

    Incidentally, my theory for the end of the series is that Donna ends up swapping places with Rose, she’s in the parallel world. But she will CHOOSE to do it as some kind of mad gesture for the Doctor.

    #81543
    Andrew
    Participant

    > That won?t be the Doctor on the stretcher.

    I take back everything I said. Apparently the clip’s giving away nothing…

    #81544
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    It doesn’t look like either the brown suit or the blue suit. It can’t be him!!

    I don’t think the clip is THAT bad. But the line “It must have happened too fast for him to regenerate” is officially awful.

    #81545
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Well, they *are* setting up regeneration at a conscious choice n the new series where as before it was pretty ambiguous. And, you know, conscious choice is a bit hard when you’ve been deaded in a split second. its a good way of bringing some peril to the character.

    I’m sure the ADR is poor, but the line and idea behind it isn’t so much.

    #81546
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Well, they *are* setting up regeneration at a conscious choice n the new series where as before it was pretty ambiguous.

    Does this actually contradict the original series? From what I remember, 5 seemed pretty uncertain about whether he would regenerate.

    #81547
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    performingmonkey says things!
    That won?t be the Doctor on the stretcher.

    Given some of the info I’ve been privy to, it seems very likely that the occupant of the stretcher is indeed the Doctor. There’s also a lot of speculation in fan circles that the events of this episode will tie in to the Sarah Jane Adventures serial “Whatever Happened To Sarah Jane?”, which doesn’t seem entirely unlikely but I shall refrain from comment until the episode has aired.

    #81549
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Does this actually contradict the original series? From what I remember, 5 seemed pretty uncertain about whether he would regenerate.

    I don’t know about onscreen, but spinoff media has always tended to state that you have to trigger a regeneration mentally. So if you know you’re dying, you can do it – for example, in The Infinity Doctors, some Time Lords get murdered by having both their hearts stabbed simultaneously, so they don’t get a chance to regenerate. And RTD certainly seemed to be following up this idea with what he did with the Master, I think.

    How this reconciles with the 7/8 regeneration, though, I wouldn’t care to speculate…

    #81554
    Andrew
    Participant

    So that whole ‘he’s a parallel Doctor’ thing ISN’T totally blown by the clip, then?

    Ah, if not, I guess I’ve ruined everybody’s evening…

    Good. Don’t see why I should be the only miserable fucker out there.

    #81556
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    Who told you?

    #81558
    pfm
    Participant

    > There?s also a lot of speculation in fan circles that the events of this episode will tie in to the Sarah Jane Adventures serial ?Whatever Happened To Sarah Jane??

    Probably Davros/Dalek Caan/the Daleks in general use the Trickster (or something like him) to fuck with spacetime and somehow a parallel Doctor is created. We will be led to believe that the parallel Doctor (‘Bizarro Doctor’??) was the one who was killed by the ‘red spider’ but in fact it WAS our Doctor and he ISN’T dead, he wakes up in the ambulance later on, with the Time Lord-y stuff coming out of his mouth like when Jennie woke up.

    Donna and everyone else will think Bizarro Doctor is their Doctor. It’s Bizarro who gets exterminated by a Dalek at the end of episode 12 but they all think their Doctor is now dead so they cry and stuff then all band together like the slick motherfuckers they are to defeat Davros. They are all about to be exterminated by the red Supreme Dalek when Ten comes smashing into the room…with K9!! Rose gets her vag out and proceeds to frig herself off amid the chaos around her.

    #81560
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Or, alternatively, “Turn Left” is about what would have happened if Donna hadn’t met the Doctor, and is set in a parallel universe that spins off from that event, and all parallel universes are crashing into one-another and that’s what the “Medusa Cascade” is.

    S’my guess, anyway.

    #81561
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Or, alternatively, ?Turn Left? is about what would have happened if Donna hadn?t met the Doctor

    See, I thought, yeah, the clip made this entirely blatant – Donna not being with the Doctor during the ‘red spider’ events of Runaway Bride. (Hang on, is that possible given that her arrival triggered his involvement?!) But apparently not!

    #81562
    Michael Warren
    Participant

    Very spoilery pics from “The Stolen Earth” have emerged:

    http://www.ranger-retrocenter.com/misc/stolen_earth_pic6.jpg

    (there are fifteen pictures, just replace the digit in the file name with 1 – 15)

    #81563
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    #4 and #6 are BRILLIANT. I couldn’t get #13, though?

    BBC press release for Journey’s End has gone up. First official BBC confirmation of Davros…

    #81564
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    They’ve been pretty slack with the old spoiler leaks this year. This time last year, we didn’t even know for sure that it *was* The Master in the finale, it was only rumours and speculation. Which is what made Utopia so good to watch; we were only *just* ahead of the characters in figuring it all out. Now we know fucking everything about the last three episodes already. What a pisser.

    #81565
    Michael Warren
    Participant

    >I couldn?t get #13, though?

    I just checked, and it’s not in the list I got these from, either. That is odd. I wonder what it was?

    #81566
    pfm
    Participant

    Yeah we didn’t know for sure about the Master until the end of Utopia. That was a much easier secret to keep though because Simm was always mentioned as playing Saxon, not The Master. Just as Jacobi was always the Professor and the regeneration scene was kept secret (despite the strong rumour for months that Jacobi would regenerate into Simm there was no proper confirmation).

    I hope they still have one hidden surprise up their sleeve (now that we know these episodes aren’t really about the Time War as was perhaps hoped, there’s no chance of McGann/Eccleston or anything of equal monumentity). All this makes me regret looking at any spoilers, but even if I hadn’t there is just NO WAY I wouldn’t have known Davros was returning. When the pic appeared in The Sun I even had my dad on the phone to me banging on about it!

    A Tennant/Eccleston/McGann special next year. With Sheridan Smith, Billie and Freema (Tate can’t return considering Donna will either die or be trapped). I’m not joking, I would have to watch that one in my boxers…

    #81567
    ChrisM
    Participant


    Donna Noble action figure.

    Go on. You know you want one!

    Quite a good likeness actually.

    #81568
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    performingmonkey says words…
    A Tennant/Eccleston/McGann special next year. With Sheridan Smith, Billie and Freema (Tate can?t return considering Donna will either die or be trapped). I?m not joking, I would have to watch that one in my boxers?

    I seem to recall (but have been unable to source) Russel T Davies saying that one of the three specials next year is going to be “very fanwanky”, and there are some rumours floating around about Paul McGann being involved. We may well get a “Time War flashback”, or perhaps some kind of multi-Doctor story with the Eighth and Tenth Doctors.

    #81569
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Ben Paddon does that thing what he does…

    We may well get a ?Time War flashback?, or perhaps some kind of multi-Doctor story with the Eighth and Tenth Doctors.

    Some kind of acknowledgement of McGann’s contribution (aside from a picture in Journal of Impossible Things) would be kinda cool.

    #81570
    Andrew
    Participant

    > Some kind of acknowledgement of McGann?s contribution (aside from a picture in Journal of Impossible Things) would be kinda cool.

    Indeed. While I’d like to see Eccleston and Tennant’s Doctors together – they seem to have more chance of interesting clashes than the arguably more similar eighth and tenth (though I’ve not seen any spin-offs, so I’m only going from The Movie – it feels incredibly unlikely that Eccleston would come back. Just as I never expect to see him in spin-off media.

    I honestly think Time Crash is an absolute gem, and better than I remember any multi-Doctor story being. I’d happily see Davison return – age be damned. Moreover, it feels like this incarnation of the show can better handle the kind of ‘event television’ a meeting of Doctors needs to be.

    #81571
    Ridley
    Participant

    More Raston Robot. :D

    I once thought Tom Baker should come back and have him turn out to be The Master.

    (I should point out my grip on old series Who is very loose)

    #81572
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I honestly think Time Crash is an absolute gem, and better than I remember any multi-Doctor story being. I?d happily see Davison return – age be damned.

    Yep. Out of all the Doctors still alive and willing to be associated with the show, he’d be by far the best – you need someone that contrasts with Tennant’s Doctor, and also someone who matches him in acting ability. Davison is by far the best match.

    I really hope they see Time Crash as a taster for a full episode – rather than as a “Oh, that would have been great as a full episode, but never mind – we’ve kinda done them two now…”

    #81573
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Ridley is prescient…
    I once thought Tom Baker should come back and have him turn out to be The Master.

    So did Tom Baker, funnily enough. He’d even been quoted as saying so. While I don’t doubt it would’ve been fun it would have annoyed the Hell out of anyone with any sort of interest in the shows continuity (or lack of one).

    I’m convinced RTD wrote in the Jelly Baby thing in The Sound of Drums as a wink to Tom Baker’s expressed desire to play the Master.

    #81574

    Is there anybody not in the next episode? We’ve even got the torchwood team. I think todays episode was a very good idea but it seems like its just setting up the main story in the next two episodes.

    #81575
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I preferred “Turn Left” when it was called “The Wish” and was part of Buffy’s third year. That episode had an actual story rather than serving as a trip down memory lane through RTD’s greatest shits (typo accidental, but actually quite accurate considering the episodes referenced).

    Seriously, I was watching it 10 minutes behind broadcast time and was inclined to spin on throughout in search of a scene where SOMETHING happened, rather than a bunch of sequences about how lousy life would be without the Doctor (and the UK government committing genocide? Nice!).

    And Horseface is back. And the Torchwood guys too.

    Yay.

    #81576
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >Is there anybody not in the next episode?

    Opening titles :

    DAVID TENNANT

    CATHERINE TATE

    BILLIE PIPER

    FREEMA AGYEMAN

    JOHN BARROWMAN

    ELISABETH SLADEN

    THEM LOT OFF TORCHWOOD

    … oh, shit, we’ve only got five minutes left. Oh, look, it’s Davros! Yay!

    NEXT TIME…

    #81577

    > And Horseface is back.

    Gwen?

    #81578
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    (joking aside, I genuinely think the opening titles will feature those names, in that order, up to and including Barrowman. Because all those people have had their names in it before, and that seems to be the “rule”. Sladen hasn’t, so she won’t this time.)

    #81579
    Ridley
    Participant

    THEM LOT OFF TORCHWOOD

    Both of them.

    That kid from the Sarah Jane thing was there too.

    #81580
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Don’t forget Luke Smith and Harriet Jones!

    #81581
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >> And Horseface is back.

    >Gwen?

    Billie, actually. My automatic response to everyone raving about how good looking she is. I’m also inclined to call her nothing special in the acting department. She needs to be killed off pronto so there’s never any inclination to bring her back and make her over-shadow another series.

    THIS FINALE IS SO MASSIVE WE NEED TO TRIPLE THE CAST LIST AND THEN STRUGGLE TO GIVE THEM EACH SOMETHING SUBSTANTIAL TO DO!!!

    Utopia poos over this as far as lead-ins to the finale. And as for Doctor-lite episodes….let’s not even go there.

    #81582
    Ridley
    Participant

    Leeds?

    #81583
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    “Oh, and can you get this thing off my back?”

    “Well, you could try taking your coat off.”

    #81584
    pfm
    Participant

    *picks up flamethrower* *aims at Pete* *trips and accidentally engulfes ALL the Catherine-Tate-as-Donna haters, as well as Pete, oh and also Billie Piper’s dentist/surgeon, in searing flame*

    I don’t think we’re worthy of RTD. It’s just a shame they didn’t have enough money to blow the Tardis apart like how he wanted during the time travel scene. I fucking LOVED the line about how Gwen and Ianto gave their lives to defeat the Sontarans and Jack was transported to the Sontaran homeworld! And on the news about Sarah Jane and the kids being killed!! Bad Wolf!!! Screw all you hating idiots.

    Incidentally, even though this was a Tennant-lite episode I thought he perhaps stole the whole thing with his reaction to hearing ‘Bad Wolf’. Excellent. I can’t wait for him to face Davros and the Daleks!

    #81585
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Fan-fiction blah blah reset button zzzzz Bad wolf been done waffle waffle hope Jack gets raped by Sontarans big yawn.

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