Theory about Demons and Angels

[deblene]

I’ve just rewatched Demons and Angels (or potentially watched it for the first time – I’m afraid I originally watched Red Dwarf so long ago that I can’t remember either way), and I had some thoughts about the nature of the High and Low versions of the characters. To be clear, I do think they were written to be taken at face value, as objective “good” and “evil” incarnations – with all the rather dodgy moralisation that comes along with that. But as a non-canon, in-universe theory, I wondered if you could interpret the Low versions especially as subjective, and representative specifically of what the characters would be most afraid of or disgusted by in themselves. (The High versions are essentially all the same character, but perhaps they all have roughly the same conception of saintliness.)

If you think about it, the effects on the strawberry are also subjective.
Being perfect to eat from a human – or even specifically Lister’s tastebuds’ – perspective doesn’t really have much to do with objective “goodness”, for any other animal or for the plant itself. You could even argue that the strawberry being rotting and full of maggots is only “bad” to a human who wants to eat it – it certainly isn’t bad for the maggots, for one!

Topic

[Rushy]

Given the grey morality that normally pervades Red Dwarf, I do find that episode a little strange, especially when Kryten associates watching horror movies with evil depravity. 

[International Debris]

It’s definitely the shallowest of the character deconstructions in the bubble era. Even if we can put the ‘lowness’ of crossdressing Rimmer and Lister enjoying casual sex down to early ‘90s prudishness, the bunkroom with cinema hotdogs and bad horror films feels closer to the Cyberia stuff in Last Human than any real moral exploration. 

[Rushy]

It’s definitely the shallowest of the character deconstructions in the bubble era. 

Is it intended to be a character deconstruction? 

They could have easily given the Highs and Lows personality traits that are more consistent with the crew we know. Basically ramping up their positive and negative qualities.

Like maybe High Lister is a mature officer who’s come to terms with his life, while Low Lister is akin to Jabba the Hutt. A complete slob who has given up on life, sits in his filth and keeps Kochanski alive against her will as a holo-slave or something (not on-screen, just implied), as a dark and twisted variation of Lister’s inability to let go. 

High Cat could still be vain, but in a more caring and friendly way, he just wants attention. Whereas Low Cat is kept on a leash. 

High Kryten could be akin to Butler, whilst Low Kryten is so pathetically servile he’ll literally lick your boots. 

High Rimmer is Third Technician, below Lister. Except he’s fine with it and enjoys spending most of his time on his hobbies. Because Low Lister uses up most of the ship’s power for Kochanski, Low Rimmer would be trapped in something like that holo projection cage from Thanks for the Memory, unable to accomplish anything, reduced to screaming at Lister all day, their series 1 dynamic dialled up to eleven. 

[International Debris]

I mean the usual format of 1-V episodes is using sci-fi to explore the characters in more depth and use that as a way to look at humanity in general, so I’d say it’s reasonably likely, yes.

[Technopeasant]

You could even argue that the strawberry being rotting and full of maggots is only “bad” to a human who wants to eat it – it certainly isn’t bad for the maggots, for one!

If the maggots spread the seeds it’d still be a win for the strawberry.

[Rushy]

I mean the usual format of 1-V episodes is using sci-fi to explore the characters in more depth and use that as a way to look at humanity in general, so I’d say it’s reasonably likely, yes.

It’s part of the formula, but certainly not every episode. 

Unless there was some deep message about humanity that I missed in Backwards, sometimes the show exists just to be goofy and creatively wacky. 

[Technopeasant]

In fairness they do try with the discussion about how a backwards world actually might make more sense.

[International Debris]

It’s part of the formula, but certainly not every episode.  

That’s why I said usual and not only.

[deblene]

It’s definitely the shallowest of the character deconstructions in the bubble era. Even if we can put the ‘lowness’ of crossdressing Rimmer and Lister enjoying casual sex down to early ‘90s prudishness, the bunkroom with cinema hotdogs and bad horror films feels closer to the Cyberia stuff in Last Human than any real moral exploration. 

I agree – I thought of interpreting them as subjective because it honestly just makes it a bit more interesting as a concept. In some ways, I think it makes more sense, too.

I’ll admit that this is also partly to make Low Rimmer a bit more palatable, as a queer person myself! I do think it bears examining why, to put it bluntly, only Rimmer is a gay crossdresser. I’d guess that, from the writers’ perspective, it’s because Rimmer is the least “red-blooded” of the main (humanoid) cast, and consequently the most insecure about his masculinity and sexuality. But working under the canon explanation that the Low versions arise from real thoughts, traits or urges in their original characters, Low Rimmer is… what? The part of Rimmer that is gay? As much as I’d support the headcanon, I don’t believe that’s what Grant Naylor were intending to put across…

If we assume that the triplicator works subjectively, this makes much more sense to me. Rimmer is the only one who would be so neurotically afraid of being queer or gender non-conforming. Lister seems fairly comfortable in his masculinity and sexuality – for instance, never rising to Rimmer’s jabs about him and Ace – and the Cat is, quite frankly, pretty gender non-conforming already, not that he probably has much idea what gender is.

If the maggots spread the seeds it’d still be a win for the strawberry.

Exactly! My biologist’s brain can’t in good conscience see decay as a bad thing!

[Rushy]

And the Cat is, quite frankly, pretty gender non-conforming already, not that he probably has much idea what gender is. 

Can I ask how you arrived at that conclusion?

Because from all I’ve seen, he’s a pretty basic typical male. 

[deblene]

Can I ask how you arrived at that conclusion?
Because from all I’ve seen, he’s a pretty basic typical male. 

Haha, I’m exaggerating somewhat. And I don’t mean that he’s not cisgender, or that he thinks anything consciously of his presentation (that isn’t just that it’s better than everyone else’s). More that he’s very flamboyant and wears a lot of colours, clothing items or accessories that the other characters would probably consider too feminine for them, not to mention his makeup. So, since he doesn’t seem to worry about appearing very masculine, it wouldn’t make sense for his Low self to be more GNC than him (and in fact Low Cat has no fashion sense to speak of at all – horror!).

By “doesn’t have much idea what gender is”, I mean that since he’s a cat, I assume that he thinks entirely in terms of biological sex and doesn’t deep it otherwise. You certainly wouldn’t find him reading Judith Butler.

[Rushy]

To be fair, if anyone is confused about gender, it’s me. I’ve no idea what gender is. I don’t mean that derisively either, I genuinely don’t get the concept. So if anyone could help, I would appreciate.

I mean, you’ve got men and women. And in my experience, they are virtually identical save for the body parts. All that stuff about masculinity and femininity are just social stereotypes and personality traits. 

Some men and women are what we would call masculine and some men and women are what we could call feminine.

But how we get from that to identifying as different genders, I have no idea. It just confuses me. Why would anyone bother identifying as a man or woman when they can just be “I’m a woman but I am into masculine stuff”. It seems overcomplicated.

Because to me personally, being a man just means being a human being with a willy. 

Sorry if it’s offensive to anyone, I am just confused.

[Technopeasant]

Given a lot of the visual inspiration for the Cat is older fashions, it just goes to show how unfixed and nebulous applying gender to clothing is. Like how heels and pink were initially masculine coded in Western culture.

[deblene]

To be fair, if anyone is confused about gender, it’s me. I’ve no idea what gender is. I don’t mean that derisively either, I genuinely don’t get the concept. So if anyone could help, I would appreciate.
I mean, you’ve got men and women. And in my experience, they are virtually identical save for the body parts. All that stuff about masculinity and femininity are just social stereotypes and personality traits. 
Some men and women are what we would call masculine and some men and women are what we could call feminine.
But how we get from that to identifying as different genders, I have no idea. It just confuses me. Why would anyone bother identifying as a man or woman when they can just be “I’m a woman but I am into masculine stuff”. It seems overcomplicated.
Because to me personally, being a man just means being a human being with a willy. 
Sorry if it’s offensive to anyone, I am just confused.

No problem, you’re not being offensive (I’m trans myself). :) It is a very slippery concept to get your head around, and everyone has different ideas about it. Gender is certainly made up of social stereotypes, but those still have real effects (an example I like to give is that money is fundamentally not real, it is a social construct, but it obviously still affects you if you have none of it!). People may feel that they fit more into one made-up box than the other, or into neither.

A scenario people often use to explain the idea of having an internal sense of gender identity is that of your consciousness suddenly being transplanted into the body of either the opposite sex (appropriately enough, like Rimmer in Better Than Life the novel…), or a completely genderless robot. Most cisgender people would say that they would still feel in some way like a man or a woman, regardless of their physical body – it’s part of their identity and sense of self. Most cisgender people also wouldn’t like being referred to in a way that doesn’t align with their internal sense of self. For instance, cisgender actors who have played transgender or cross-gender roles sometimes report feeling what is essentially gender dysphoria, a sense of deep discomfort or depression at not being treated as the gender they are or at having to present in a way that doesn’t align with it.

There’s also something to be said for the fact that “men” and “women” haven’t always been fixed, biologically based categories in every society. There are many societies which incorporate(d) third gender roles or the ability for people to live as a gender different from their sex assigned at birth. (Not to mention that sex itself is a spectrum, not a binary, but that’s another discussion.)

I hope that was at least somewhat helpful and not too long-winded! It is indeed very difficult to explain…

Given a lot of the visual inspiration for the Cat is older fashions, it just goes to show how unfixed and nebulous applying gender to clothing is. Like how heels and pink were initially masculine coded in Western culture.

Absolutely – I’m casually into historical men’s fashion, and part of the reason I love the Cat’s design so much is that it incorporates so many of my favourite clothing elements which have sadly fallen out of the norm.

[deblene]

Also, this conversation has reminded me of this part of the “test” taken by the crew in the first issue of the Smegazine…

[Jenuall]

Lets not forget that Cat was thrilled about the prospect of getting to fuck an incapacitated Lister – pretty sure they are up for anything.

[Dave]

[Dave]

But as a non-canon, in-universe theory, I wondered if you could interpret the Low versions especially as subjective, and representative specifically of what the characters would be most afraid of or disgusted by in themselves.

Coming back to this, I think it’s a pretty good theory but I’d be more inclined to go along with it if it wasn’t for Back To Reality immediately following up this episode with a story that’s more explicitly about the crew turning into versions of themselves that they hate.

Although you could argue that the D&A Low versions are based on character traits that the regular versions of the characters do possess, but which are suppressed or controlled – whereas the BTR versions of the characters push them into areas that aren’t necessarily shared by their true selves.

And yet another example of the crew coming across alternate versions of themselves that they despise is obviously Out Of Time.

And I suppose Rimmer started the trend in Me² with direct self-hate (see also: Terrorform, Rimmerworld, Timewave…), although self-loathing is a more predominant trait for him than it is for others.

[International Debris]

Which, again, goes back to my thought that it just feels a lot shallower than similar stories. We get two alt versions of each character, but only two of those even try and say anything about the originals, and in both cases they’re fairly broad and not very insightful. Not to say that makes it a bad episode, or an unfunny one, but it does feel a little like a wasted opportunity, especially given just how character-focused V is in general. It’s similar to its late-bubble-episode-five counterpart Rimmerworld, in that it feels like it received less attention at the scriptwriting stage. 

Then again, with so many alternate versions of the characters seen throughout V, maybe they just ran out of steam for deeper exploration. 

[International Debris]

Why would anyone bother identifying as a man or woman when they can just be “I’m a woman but I am into masculine stuff”. It seems overcomplicated.

For what it’s worth, this gets to the crux of it; you’re phrasing it like it’s a choice, but it’s not, really. Trans people can’t help feeling that way. It definitely is over complicated and confusing, and people don’t generally try and make their lives that stressful unless they basically have to.  

I actively avoided any thoughts about this for years, because of how bloody complicated it all is, but it catches up with you in the end.

As for the Cat, yeah, he’s very effeminate by human standards, with his excessive and flamboyant wardrobe, waxing and perming of his body hair, etc. If we’re talking stereotypes, he’s kind of a dandy, slightly metrosexual-ish? Definitely not a basic guy in that sense.

edit: Cappsy why is the formatting always so fucked after you edit a message? Sort it out. 

[Dave]

I always felt that Series 1-2 Cat was rooted in a sort of 1950s jazz aesthetic, all slicked-back hair and sharp suits. Which I guess aligns with being a “cool cat”. Maybe a bit James Brown/Little Richard too, who I know influenced DJJ in terms of some of the mannerisms.

From Series III onwards though it feels like he gets modernised and more outlandish in his fashions, some of his stuff is almost Vivienne Westwood-esque and there’s also a pretty heavy Prince influence at times.

[deblene]

Lets not forget that Cat was thrilled about the prospect of getting to fuck an incapacitated Lister – pretty sure they are up for anything.

Given Camille, you could say that the Cat is bi but only for himself…

… self-loathing is a more predominant trait for him than it is for others.

What a nice way of putting it!

I always felt that Series 1-2 Cat was rooted in a sort of 1950s jazz aesthetic, all slicked-back hair and sharp suits. Which I guess aligns with being a “cool cat”.

Yes – I absolutely love that the Cat in the early seasons is really partly a walking jazz slang reference.

[Author]

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