Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Torchwood Using Their Own Brig…

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  • #101013
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Fuck, I was watching last nights Mitchel and Web look and explaining on IMDB why Red Dwarf too a long break between Series VIII and BtE and now I will have to wait an hour to watch Torchwood when it gets on Iplayer, ahh well, atleast they have a Torchwood Declassified on tonight too.

    #101016
    Carlito
    Participant

    This is the first Torchwood I’ve ever seen (don’t watch Doctor Who either). Really enjoying it though. I’m surprised!

    #101018
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Turns out Declassified isn’t on, oh.

    #101019
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >Guess who just got Children of Earth through the post on DVD from preorder, even though it?s not out til next week?

    Hmmm… I’d say everyone on the internet, judging by the number of people I’ve seen smugly mention it as if they were the only ones ;-)

    #101020
    si
    Participant

    What the Christing arse was that all about? Are we getting more? Or has Russell the T decided he’s leaving the Whoniverse altogether? They can’t leave it at that…

    #101021
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Hmmm. The resolution didn’t make much sense to me. I think I know what they were going for, but… it just seemed a stretch too far.
    Spoiler ahead if you’re watching the second showing (I’ll keep it vague:)

    I.e. it was comparable to turning an amp into a microphone if that makes sense. Science doesn’t really work that way. And then there’s the interface/technology compatibility, etc. etc.

    I suppose really it’s best to see it as a character piece. That Jack is still willing to make the hard decisions (amongst other things). In that way it worked well.

    Overall a success though I think. To borrow a cliche, I think the journey was better than the destination though, but it wasn’t really spoilt for that.

    #101022
    si
    Participant

    After last night’s episode, me and my sister both joined a Facebook group called ‘RIP Ianto Jones’.
    After tonight’s episode, the group (now called ‘RIP Ianto Jones and Torchwood’) is full of people cancelling their DVDs, not watching anything by Russell T Davies EVUR AGEN!!! (including the remaining Who eps(!?!)) and generally calling for his head. All this despite the fact there’s a thread on there discussing a fourth series, going on a quote from RTD (http://news.whoviannet.co.uk/2009/06/fourth-series-of-torchwood-ready-to-go).

    My sister and I have left this group…

    #101023
    si
    Participant

    was, indeed, a terrible ending
    Thanks a lot RTD
    How could you ruin this for a world of devoted fans
    Evil Evil Evil
    Hate them all

    Here is a typical example (from a university student, no less)

    #101024
    si
    Participant

    Torchwood: Children of Earth. A bit bleak, I’ll grant you, but d’you know something? I think I enjoyed that more than Red Dwarf: Back to Earth.

    #101027
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Day 5 still not up on Iplayer. I mean RTD has in the past done a great lead up but a terrible finale, ‘Last of the Time Lords’ or ‘Gollum goes the Circus’ as I prefer to call it as an example, ‘Utopia’ was bloody brilliant, ‘Sound of Drums’ was ok, ‘Gollum goes the Circus’ was poor.
    Still I thought ‘Journeys End’ was a great finale (though I thought the lead up wasn’t that good with ‘The Stolen Earth’, funny that).

    #101028
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Oh it is up.

    #101031
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Shame that the show has to end (if it infact does). I thought while the episode was not the best of the 5 it had the best scene and that was Frobisher’s last, just the pause between the last gun shot, so brilliant.

    #101032
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Wow, that never really hit fifth gear. What a disappointment that it just couldn’t meet the potential of the first four episodes.

    Was it too much too ask that the 456 be dealt with in a smart way, rather than relying on techobabble (essentially reversing the polarity)? I expected more than a Doctor Who style cop-out, even if they did try and excuse it with some of the darkest and disturbing imagery possible. Even Jack Bauer draws the line at hurting kids!

    Overall a success, but if this were a movie, I’ve be pretty pissed off with the final act.

    I’m not sure where Torchwood goes from here.

    #101033
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Now you see I thought that was a better ending than the other New Who endings, I mean what do we have, Magic Rose makes the bad pepper pots go away with bright eyes, then we had a hoover suck the Daleks, then we had everybody pray for the Doctor at the exact same time all around the world which changed the Doctor from Gollum into an angel, then we had a few switched flipped which led to the comedy moment of the Daleks being kicked about (which I actully thought was rather funny no matter how much it detracted from the tention previously established) but here we had something like ‘Jouneys End’ but better thought through, I mean they had hints to the end with the death of Clem, I can’t see a better ending to the dilemma, that is outside the Doctor turning up and in a comedy moment just flashing his sonic screwdriver and scaring them all away, though it wouldn’t really have kept up the drama would it?

    #101035
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Depends if you judge the ending on just the method to defeat the big bad or giving you a genuinely satisfying ending for the characters and themes. I think CoE Ep5 failed on both counts.

    >Magic Rose makes the bad pepper pots go away with bright eyes

    I thought that was a great ending and the regeneration was fantastic. That episode was preceded by Bad Wolf, which I thought was atrocious so I can’t say my expectations were high. Anne Droid? Fuck off.

    >then we had a hoover suck the Daleks

    Awful, since they’d only been introduced into the story about 40 minutes prior to this. But the ending itself with the “writing-out” of Rose was fine. Spoiled it all by having Catherine Tate turn up to destroy the mood though.

    >then we had everybody pray for the Doctor at the exact same time all around the world which changed the Doctor from Gollum into an angel

    Terrible. But I didn’t like either of the final two episodes of Season Three. After Utopia (which was great) I expected something considerably less camp.

    >then we had a few switched flipped which led to the comedy moment of the Daleks being kicked about

    I loved Journey’s End. It’s the only finale that totally worked for me.

    >I can?t see a better ending to the dilemma, that is outside the Doctor turning up and in a comedy moment just flashing his sonic screwdriver and scaring them all away, though it wouldn?t really have kept up the drama would it?

    I don’t see how Jack pressing a few buttons is all that different. It’s almost as if RTD thought “If I kill a kid, it won’t look like I’m having a cop-out”.

    #101036
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >I don?t see how Jack pressing a few buttons is all that different. It?s almost as if RTD thought ?If I kill a kid?, it won?t look like I?m doing a cop-out.

    Well sort of, yes but really you could say the same for most endings, ‘Parting of the Ways’ had the Eccleston Doctor being killed to not make is look like a cop-out (or Lynda), ‘Doomsday’ had Rose “dying”, ‘Last of the Time Lords’ had the Master “dying” and ‘Journeys End’ had Donna “dying”.

    >>then we had a few switched flipped which led to the comedy moment of the Daleks being kicked about

    >I loved Journey?s End. It?s the only finale that totally worked for me.

    Don’t get me wrong, I agree it was the only finale which really worked for me too, the switched being pressed was a bit out of the blue but thinking about how Davros works it sort of makes sense that he would make it so he could have a cop-out against the Daleks, I mean he hasn’t had the best history with the Daleks, rebelling against him in half of his stories and in the others attacking his gold and white Daleks.

    #101037
    Ridley
    Participant

    Anne Droid? Fuck off.

    “I’d rather make out with my Monroe-bot.”

    —–

    This is the first Torchwood I?ve ever seen (don?t watch Doctor Who either).

    That’s why, I think, The Doctor shouldn’t be mentioned in Torchwood. The way he has been, at least.

    #101038
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > That Jack is still willing to make the hard decisions (amongst other things). In that way it worked well

    Well it was still a pretty enjoyable ending even if the ending wasn’t great. Having Peter Capaldi shoot his own kids becuase he felt there was no other option didn’t work for me because about a year ago I was sat in a cinema watching the end of Frank Darabont’s. I hope RTD wasn’t.

    As for Jack’s sacrifice of his own grandson. I’m not sure how I feel about that or what to make of it. They spent the last two episodes indicating that sacrificing 10% of kids to save millions more was wrong. Implicity putting across that it wasn’t a debate about numbers, but about morals. Heck even sacrificing one kid… ah.

    So Torchwood’s Doctor has massive flaws, well no Torchwood’s Doctor is a child-killer (Twice over at least). Which is a massively dark twist really. Can we ever view Jack in a positive way after that?

    I actually think the next chapter of Jack is perfect for the world of Torchwood, what the character’s not so perfect for now is popping up in a Who finale as comedy relief.

    I wondered before this final episode if they were slowly establishing Jack as a potential supervillian for a future series of Who. Perhaps that wouldn’t make sense as his darker side only really shows in Torchwood. Maybe then that’s the angle that they would take with any series 4 of Torchwood. Some new heroes following in the footsteps of the legendary Harkness trying to track him down and save his soul.

    #101039
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    > Magic Rose makes the bad pepper pots go away with bright eyes,

    Nice line, but don’t be silly eh.

    #101046
    si
    Participant

    What’s next for Jack? I wouldn’t rule out seeing him in Doctor Who regeneration-time, and something happening to make him see that he’s needed back down Cardiff way, just to offer some kind of protection. Or something.

    #101047
    Dave
    Participant

    >or ?Gollum goes the Circus? as I prefer to call it as an example

    Like a fucking broken record.

    #101049
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    You’re probably right. I’m just not sure I can enjoy Jack the same way knowing that he’s current character is prepared to pulp his own grandson, unless I’m totally missing what actually happened at the end there.

    Also it reminded of this:

    #101050
    JamesTC
    Participant

    So wait, you think that 10% of the children of earth should die in favour of Jack’s grandson, Jack has probably seen ‘Wrath of Khan’, “The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few”. The Doctor has let people die to save more people or to save the time line.

    #101052
    si
    Participant

    Incidentally, my DVD didn’t turn up today. Play, you disappoint me!

    Those who have got it, where’d you order it from?

    #101051
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    ?The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few?

    Er… except by that logic handing over the 10% to save everyone else is fine too.

    Why is the life of Jack’s grandson in anyway more dispensable than that of the 10,000 kids?

    It’s not about numbers or de-humanising phrases such as “acceptable losses”. If you’re prepared to murder one life then the fundemental of essence of whether it’s worth living at all comes into play, isn’t it?

    The options were not simply 10% or everyone or Jack’s grandson v 10%. The question is de-humanising yourself in order to survive versus dieing with your beliefs intact.

    #101055
    littlesmegger
    Participant

    I ordered mine from DVD.co.uk who are saying “In Stock” rather than “Pre-Order” as it should. I got mine Friday morning, when it’s not out until next week. :P

    And regarding people commenting on Jack’s supposed new character, he’s far from different. He did what he had to do to save millions, and now he’s tortured for eternity as a result. Why do you think he’s running away?!

    It amuses me on the forums about how the ending was to negative. What were they expecting Jack to do. Kill a family member, hop into a new convertible and drive off with Gwen into the sunset? *rolls eyes*

    #101057
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I found Jack’s willingness to sacrifice his grandson believable (although I agree with Karl’s comments concerning the morality.) Jack was willing to sacrifice 12 in the 60s after all. Jack himself stated his rationale when he confronted the ambassador. “Back then noone knew.” (Or words to that affect.)

    The science didn’t make much sense though. Machine sends out signal, which somehow makes the kid produce a signal, which somehow is picked up by the other kids (who are unharmed) who broadcast it further, which somehow hurts, possibly destroys the alien ambassador miles away. Wwhy not just send it back directly via the machine without the child? They established in episode one that they can communicate through them (albeit the aliens won’t answer.)

    Also the way they worked out that the signal was harmful to the aliens didn’t make sense. I understand the aliens killed Clem presumably because they knew he could be utilized via the reversal thing, in the same way Jack’s granson was used. But how did Jack (etc) know which particular frequency of signal to use? Or to put it another way, why would the same level that killed Clem work on the aliens? I suppose the fact that they’re connected via that frequency could be rationale enough, but it still seems a major plot leap to me.

    Also what’s stopping the rest of the aliens sending down a virus? Were they killed too? Who beamed up the ambassador? Was it automated on death?

    I’m not sure what other resolution the writers could have come up with though.

    #101059
    Tarka Dal
    Participant

    Actually biggest question mark about the whole thing for me was the way everyone in the world seemed to know what had happened when Jack reversed the signal.

    In wales Gwen and the kids were running away from the soldiers. Suddenly all the kids start doing a wierd screechy howl. Next time you see them Gwen is hugging the little girl and full of smiles. Erm… so all the soldiers just instantly decided to stop collecting kids then?

    #101060
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >I?m not sure what other resolution the writers could have come up with though.

    But that shouldn’t be an excuse. If RTD and the other have written themselves into a corner, that’s their own fault. A bit of tinkering to the story could have saved us from a rather hokey conclusion.

    >Erm? so all the soldiers just instantly decided to stop collecting kids then?

    That was incredibly lame and poorly thought-out.

    #101062
    si
    Participant

    The latest BT ad’s just been on, and my mum has just pointed out that the woman playing Kris Marshall’s mum played Bridget Spears in Children of Earth.

    She looks a little happier here.

    #101063
    Carlito
    Participant

    > Actually biggest question mark about the whole thing for me was the way everyone in the world seemed to know what had happened when Jack reversed the signal. In wales Gwen and the kids were running away from the soldiers. Suddenly all the kids start doing a wierd screechy howl. Next time you see them Gwen is hugging the little girl and full of smiles. Erm? so all the soldiers just instantly decided to stop collecting kids then?

    That was my big gripe about the episode too. Big continuity error in my view.

    Also, the writer makes Wales seem like a country of blue collar ruffians. Nobody I’ve ever known from Cardiff speaks like any of those characters. I could *maybe* give him Swansea or the valleys (with the amp turned up) but not Cardiff.

    #101086
    J_Spaced
    Participant

    I used to really obssess over plot holes and continuity and all that “if it were real they wouldn’t do that…” nonsense. I had to drop it because it was affecting my enjoyment of TV shows. That’s not lowering standards, it’s just being realistic.

    There are major problems like: if the aliens could do all they could with the children, why bother with a government middle-man, why not just round them up?

    Why build a habitation cage for a creature that can’t survive our atmosphere and not include some sort of life-threatening safety device? Like an opening valve?

    Why didn’t John Frobisher hide his children somewhere?

    Why haven’t the 456 heard of Spacesuits? For the non-oxygen breathing alien who fancies getting out and about.

    The thing is, these should be secondary considerations. It’s exactly the same problem Christopher H Bidmead has with writing fiction. So wrapped up in the how, he doesn’t write a decent story about “why”, which is, for me, the real positive side of these new Doctor Who and Torchwood stories. (See if you can find his DWM interview from a couple of months ago. Brilliantly demonstrative of why he shouldn’t write fiction.)

    Everything had a theme, or a point that was being got across. Even the working-class stereotypes of Ianto’s family were there to address why it’s not a good thing to sacrifice even the “failing” parts of society. So what if they don’t “ring true”?

    It’s all about the theme, the emotion. The Macguffin ending was very much: “mumble-mumble-technobabble, but will it work? It might!” But it wasn’t there to be a clever bit of science, it was to ask: could Jack kill his grandson? Could he make himself as bad as the people he’s been fighting?

    Sure they tacked the technical explanation on in the last five minutes, but the theme, the layering of the ideas, building up to that solution wasn’t rushed or tacked on and was executed very well.

    I think it’s awesome that Jack is now definitely a flawed hero. It makes him a lot more human and more believable. Running away is a perfectly understandable, if cowardly, response to what he did.

    #101087
    si
    Participant

    RTD says some interesting stuff on the Declassified extra on the DVD – stuff like that, originally, Steven didn’t die, for example.
    It’s a shame the DVD hasn’t more extras, mind. A commentary would have been nice.

    #101090
    ChrisM
    Participant

    The thing is, these should be secondary considerations. It?s exactly the same problem Christopher H Bidmead has with writing fiction. So wrapped up in the how, he doesn?t write a decent story about ?why?, which is, for me, the real positive side of these new Doctor Who and Torchwood stories.

    As far as the ‘how’ is concerned, I agree we don’t need to know absolutely everything.

    For example I accept that the aliens didn’t just port up the kids. Teleportation is likely a rather precise operation to pull off, and it’s easier to get lots of kids delivered to one destination than targetting lots of places. Also from a long term perspective, it makes sense from the 456’s point of view that they benefit more by grabbing a portion now and again rather than just aggressively abducting all they want. Much in the same way that gangsters running a protection racket benefit more from ‘acquiring’ their cut of a bars income on a regular basis when they could just balaclava up and grab what they want.

    Besides, if the aggressively just abduct children, next time they meet humanity could be waiting and advanced to a level that would constitute a threat to them. And it works better for them psychologically.

    Actually the aliens’ treatment of humanity reminds me somewhat of ‘The Shining Wire’ chapter in Watership Down*. I.e. leave us hopping around mostly safe in our own lives and we provide a safe resource for the commodities we require. Except our particular warren isn’t gaining any advantages from the powers that be. Just the better of two evils.

    The main problem for me wasn’t the reason for the aliens’ decisions. More the massive leap of logic on Jack and co’s part (death of Clem by signal somehow means the signal is damaging to the 456.), and somehow pulling ‘child interface’ technology out of nowhere. And all the things I listed in previous posts…

    That being said, I agree, as a character piece and a discussion of ethics, Children of Earth worked very well. It was certainly good telly and probably the best we’ve had from Torchwood.

    *If you’ve never read Watership Down I’d highly recommend it. If you think it’s just a kids’ book about bunnies, you’re very wrong!

    #101093
    J_Spaced
    Participant

    The main problem for me wasn?t the reason for the aliens? decisions. More the massive leap of logic on Jack and co?s part (death of Clem by signal somehow means the signal is damaging to the 456.), and somehow pulling ?child interface? technology out of nowhere. And all the things I listed in previous posts?

    Yeah, it did feel like they’d run out of time so had to smash in an explanation as quickly as possible. But then if they’d actually set it all out we probably wouldn’t have understood it anyway! Besides, you never build a macguffin when you’ve got two-days to go till your deadline. They always happen in the last two mintues.

    They needed to kill Clem because he posed a threat that no-one until now had even thought of. Then it turns out that killing Clem pointed Jack in the direction required to kill the 456. A little bit Deus Ex Machina, I suppose but it’s not as bad as the murder mystery where the final clue that unfolds everything is something the audience has neither seen or heard until the final scenes (Poirot, I’m looking at you now). I think, had this been a toned-down Doctor Who story, Clem would have deliberately chosen to stand on the dais. The Doctor would have yelled lots of things through the glass and Clem would die, nobly destroying the 456.

    Taking the heroism out of the ending was one of the best ideas they ever had and, for me, was a really satisfyingly bleak ending that had some truth to it: you don’t really get heroes, and sometimes people get caught up in the gears of the world and squished. Everyone else gets on with their lives.

    Edit: Oh yeah, I also totally agree with your assessment of the 456 as basically gangsters running protection rackets. Makes you wonder where the 456 are on the Shadow Proclamation’s lists?

    More importantly: I still can’t decide if the government assassin lady is sexy or not.

    #101096
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    >More importantly: I still can?t decide if the government assassin lady is sexy or not.

    She was incredibly sexy in Peep Show, if that helps.

    #101097
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Also, the writer makes Wales seem like a country of blue collar ruffians. Nobody I?ve ever known from Cardiff speaks like any of those characters. I could *maybe* give him Swansea or the valleys (with the amp turned up) but not Cardiff.

    Yeah man, next time they should get a real Welshman to write it.

    #101102
    ChrisM
    Participant

    >She was incredibly sexy in Peep Show, if that helps.

    Hmm. I just had a peep on the net and apparently she’s had small roles in AvP and Resident Evil too. Oh, and the 10th Kingdom and The Colour of Magic.

    I can’t place her in any of these (Edit- although I haven’t seen The Colour of Magic. Silly me.), yet her face seems familiar…

    Oh, and Dead Set. Actually I think I remember her in that. She was the shirty woman that girl’s boyfriend* met up with wasn’t she? And apparently she was Charlie Brooker’s ex. According to wiki anyway.

    *Heh. How vague is that?

    #101108
    Carlito
    Participant

    > Yeah man, next time they should get a real Welshman to write it.

    It’s not the Wales I recognise, having lived in the same area my whole life.

    #101112
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    And the England painted by a number of television programs isn’t the England I grew up in.

    #101116
    Carlito
    Participant

    Doesn’t make it right.

    #101118
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    The thing is, there are “rough” estates in Wales like that one. I know. I’ve been to one.

    #101119
    Carlito
    Participant

    I know. Of course there are. But the characters just don’t ring true.

    It’s no big deal. I still enjoyed it, and stereotypes are rife in television. Easily accessible I guess.

    #101125
    J_Spaced
    Participant

    Hey Carl, are you actually saying it wasn’t general ENOUGH in order to accomodate your perception of the area you lived in? It might just be representative of, I don’t know, just that family?

    #101132
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Don’t be ridiculous, J. As we all know, if you see one family on a television program they have to be representative of everybody from that particular country.

    #101135
    si
    Participant

    John Barrowman’s latest role: A little different from Captain Jack…

    #101137
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    That’s a promo still from Torchwood series 2, you wally.

    #101138
    ChrisM
    Participant

    Hellooooo nurse!

    #101139
    Carlito
    Participant

    > Hey Carl, are you actually saying it wasn?t general ENOUGH in order to accomodate your perception of the area you lived in? It might just be representative of, I don?t know, just that family?

    Live in. And I’m talking about ALL the Welsh characters, not just one family.

    #101141
    Andrew
    Participant

    ALL the Welsh characters?! Not one bartender, cafe customer, bus driver or receptionist? Not one of them works as a credible resident of Wales?

    Don’t be so bloody ridiculous.

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