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  • #231733
    Dave
    Member

    Who took the picture of young-Rimmer’s dorm room that he uses to go back in time, in Timeslides? And how is adult-Rmmer in possession of it in the future?

    The more I think about this the more it bothers me.

    #231739

    If I had to head-canon it, I’d say it was just a snapshot of the dorm room that maybe he took, and he’s so petty that he happily had it developed and then sat watching the day go by in the photo until it was night time and he crept in.

    What I want to know is if those photos are still around and still ‘work’. Mind you, Doug might read this and think ‘ah there’s a good idea for a XIII plot’, to which I’ll say NO DOUG STOP.

    #231742
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    Does time pass like that in the photos? If you left the photo running for 100 years would 100 years pass?

    #231744

    I always thought it was like a security camera in the dorm room and they were just able to find a snapshot of the footage. Well Rimmer is overly obsessive, he has both a collection on 20th century telegraph poles and vintage wires, so why wouldn’t he collect everything of his youth to compile in like a documentary about himself in the future or something.

    #231749
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Bobby Moore, I don’t bloody know.

    #231753
    Flap Jack
    Member

    Rimmer has the photo in his possession because it’s the future and everyone just has thousands of photos encompassing their entire lives stored on their computers.

    It doesn’t really make sense that a picture like that would be taken in the first place, so… let’s say young Rimmer really wanted a picture of himself with his “friends”, but he wasn’t confident enough to ask them for a proper photo, so he just set up his camera to take an automatic picture of them while they were sleeping near each other instead.

    #231754
    bloodteller
    Member

    it’s a bit like that Peep Show episode where they get lost in the moors at midnight and there’s a wide shot of the two of them from a distance- the gimmick of the show is that every shot is a POV shot, so who is watching two blokes wandering around a moor late at night? sinister stuff, there

    #231756
    Warbodog
    Member

    Why does Rimmer put on an accent for one word in Future Echoes when he tells Holly to record an “internal memo”? Is he mocking Lister’s accent (for some reason? Lister didn’t say “internal” in that scene though, unless it was cut)? Is it something else? This bothers me so bad, I can’t stand this amazing episode of series 1.

    #231757
    Warbodog
    Member

    >who is watching two blokes wandering around a moor late at night?

    I read somewhere that it was a cow’s POV. Can’t remember if it was a serious answer, joke answer or fan theory.

    #231758

    I always assumed “internal memo” was him doing a scouse accent. Because he’s writing it to Lister and… I dunno.

    #231759
    clem
    Participant

    > I read somewhere that it was a cow’s POV. Can’t remember if it was a serious answer, joke answer or fan theory.

    Maybe Juliet May directed that bit. It’s definitely mentioned on the DVD commentary and iirc they do say it’s a cow or an owl or something.

    #231760
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    I thought it was just Chris slightly stumbling over the line.

    #231765
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    >I read somewhere that it was a cow’s POV. Can’t remember if it was a serious answer, joke answer or fan theory.
    It’s a cow’s POV, as stated in the director’s commentary. They REALLY wanted a wide shot of the moors, but couldn’t do it because of the POV rule, so pretended there was a cow there and used that. I’m not sure if they literally state it is a cow or if it’s just sort of an excuse for the shot.

    #231766

    > I can’t stand this amazing episode of series 1.

    I feel this is in reference to something…

    #231767
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    I need to go listen to the line now, i never noticed he said anything funny….

    Nevermind, I do remember that. But the way he delivers it makes it feel very deliberate. Why, though? Making fun of Lister/Craig? Just for fun? Who nose

    #231769
    Warbodog
    Member

    He did a (bad) Lister impersonation a few lines earlier, so maybe Chris just relapsed.

    “Interestingly,” the novel version extends the impersonation, specifies it’s a fake Scouse accent and has the memo line right after (moving the splits / blown up discussion later).

    ‘Oh, you’re not still going on about your impending death, are you? For heaven’s sake,’ Fake Scouse accent: ‘change der record. Flip der channel. Death isn’t der handicap it once was. For smeg’s sake, cheer up.’
    ‘You are, aren’t you? You’re loving it.’
    ‘Holly – I’d like to send an internal memo…’

    I just had one of those moments where I ask myself what I’m doing with my life. I’ll hit ‘Submit’ anyway so the lesson isn’t wasted.

    #231778
    bloodteller
    Member

    >It’s a cow’s POV, as stated in the director’s commentary. They REALLY wanted a wide shot of the moors, but couldn’t do it because of the POV rule, so pretended there was a cow there and used that. I’m not sure if they literally state it is a cow or if it’s just sort of an excuse for the shot.

    aw, that’s not nearly as interesting as some person inexplicably watching the two of them. though it being a cow does make more sense, i suppose

    #231785

    That’s so exceptionally close to them having their cake and eating it that it lowers my opinion of them a tiny bit.

    #231786
    Dave
    Member

    Given that the last shot of the entire series is from the POV of an inanimate object, they can pretty much get away with whatever they want, I think.

    #231787
    bloodteller
    Member

    there was a scene in season 1 that wasn’t from the POV of anyone, to be fair. when jeremy remembers “the bad thing” and its him getting his cock sucked by super hans

    #231789

    That’s an interior POV, surely? Visual memory.

    #231790
    flanl3
    Member

    Well it’s all from the POV of the camera, isn’t it?

    #231791
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    The camera doesn’t exist within the Peep Show universe, it is merely the medium thru which we can peer in

    #231792
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    They break the POV a number of times, often it’s just from Sophie or Super Hans’ point of view though. There’s even a shot of Jeremy and Mark scarpering away from the play centre in the second to last episode that is the two of them running across the carpark.

    #231793
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    But that’s from a car, so it’s obviously the POV of someone watching them. The issue is when there’s no one who could possibly be there.

    #231794
    Dave
    Member

    It’s god’s POV.

    #251084
    Dave
    Member

    Why does Ace travel 3,000,000 years into the future when he dimension-jumps?

    Who is the regular-universe counterpart for ‘padre’?

    #251110
    clem
    Participant

    Not sure what you’re driving at with your second question. It’s the Cat, isn’t it? I mean I know it doesn’t really make sense but neither does Mellie or Bongo.

    Wasn’t the padre going to be a different character originally? A cleaner? Or am I thinking of the cleaner in the Tongue Tied video.

    #251111
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    Life on Earth in that universe developed 3,000,000 years later, or something

    #251112

    Is it in the Backwards novel where it’s suggested that Ace turns up in the same time zone as his alter-ego in that universe, regardless of when it is? It’s somewhere, I’m sure.

    I really feel that GNP need to create a Red Dwarf equivalent of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Eqew1mXO30

    #251113
    Dave
    Member

    Not sure what you’re driving at with your second question. It’s the Cat, isn’t it? I mean I know it doesn’t really make sense but neither does Mellie or Bongo.

    Yes, I could have picked either of those too.

    I was just watching the Series IV documentary last night and realised that an equivalent of Cat who isn’t a cat doesn’t really make sense, not that it matters really.

    #251114
    Dave
    Member

    And yes, they talk about originally making alt-Cat a cleaner (as a contrast to the regular-universe version) but then not wanting to lean on negative stereotypes for a non-white character.

    #251115
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    but then not wanting to lean on negative stereotypes

    Something they seem completely happy with in recent years

    #251116
    Dave
    Member

    I did wince a little bit rewatching that documentary and seeing Craig and Danny lauding the fact that Red Dwarf is set in a future where racism isn’t ever even mentioned because it isn’t relevant any more, and how progressive that was for the show.

    #251120

    I really feel that GNP need to create a Red Dwarf equivalent of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Eqew1mXO30

    Nice! There are, of course, the “frequently asked questions” bits of the Smeg-Ups videos with Kryten talking to us through the Black Box.

    #251127

    Cat in the mirror universe is equally nonsensical. Something like Mr. Rat would have worked a lot better there. Other than the fact that he’s funny and the mirror universe stuff isn’t.

    #251128
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    The totally shit Talkie Toaster interviews on the official website covers the matter in its interview with Admiral Bongo.

    “Father Cat? Now there’s a remarkable guy. Passes for human incredibly well, doesn’t he? I mean, you occasionally find him scratching at his dog-collar with his foot, but generally speaking he’s indistinguishable from the rest of the guys. The Padré was part of an experiment the boffins had been working on, something to do with hyper-evolution. I don’t know the science stuff – I’m the guy who wrote to the TV networks asking them to ban documentaries during prime time – but they were working on Darwinian logics and came up with a theory that, over time and given the correct surrounds, almost any life-form will evolve into humanoid form. They eventually moved to full animal testing and Lister volunteered a cat he’d rescued on Titan. They shoved the moggy into an accelerated-time environment – kinda the opposite of a stasis booth – and the Padré was the first successful result. His religion’s a little quirky – it’s not really Christianity, but has something to do with, I don’t know, some promised holy land and an ancient star map. Crazy stuff, but he’s a top guy, great for morale – except when he sheds on the furniture.”

    “Mellie is a Model 101-type android. Tenth generation, AI. Quite brilliant. And she’s programmed to be the ideal secretary. Never misses a call, never forgets a message, and only flirts within certain operational parameters. I’ve got her set at low-level – just enough that I don’t feel guilty. But you can crank her up to full-blown ‘affair that the wife will never discover’ if you choose. It’s up to the user. She attends the company fundraisers and so on, and I can’t have her making embarrassing innuendoes in front of the brass.”

    #251158
    Dave
    Member

    I quite like the fact that someone has at least tried to explain it.

    #251159
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I assume there’s an explanation as to why Bongo looks so much like Jim Reaper too. And a detailed dissection of a frog thrown in for good measure.

    #251260
    Dave
    Member

    I wonder what was in Camille’s bag that Kryten asked Lister to take on board Hector’s ship at the end of the episode. It’s not like she brought anything with her onto Red Dwarf. Maybe she just nicked a few towels or something.

    #251261
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    She nicked the last of the strawberries.

    #251262
    Ridley
    Participant

    Giant tissue.

    #251284
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Kryten’s heart.

    #251285
    si
    Participant

    Kryten’s heart.

    The old, old story.

    #251287
    clem
    Participant

    Couple of Kryten’s spare heads and Spare Hand One.

    #251288
    clem
    Participant

    Obviously not Spare Hand One as he’s in the very next episode. How many spare body parts is Kryten meant to have anyway? There’s the spares in DNA, the heads that get blown up in Beyond a Joke. Is he like Trigger’s broom by now?

    #251314
    performingmonkey
    Participant

    I always though ‘You killed the crew, Kryten!’ should have had an in-episode explanation, for those who didn’t read Infinity Welcomes… cause it seems completely insane, out of nowhere, the idea of Kryten ‘killing’ the Nova 5 crew. (he splashes soapy water onto a console, right? So hardly anything deliberate)

    #251315
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    That may have been Doug mixing up the novel and the show and not bothering to check, rather than a deliberate IV-style retcon.

    #251317
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    Kryten killing the crew always sounded like an accident to me, either way

    #251319
    Hamish
    Member

    LISTER: You killed the crew, Kryten! No wonder you ended up on your own! All right, it was an accident, but nevertheless…

    #251320
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    I figured it’s the same reason as to why Rimmer identifies himself as First Technician in Trojan. Although Doug had previously incorrectly identified novel Rimmer as Second Technician in Last Human.

    #251322
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    On that “you killed the crew point” – Kryten goes on to say something along the lines of “and it was the same on the SS Augustus” … so presumably Kryten was assigned to a ship for long enough for the entire crew to die of old age, but still be close enough to Earth to be picked up by someone and re-assigned to the Nova 5, where he inadvertently kills them billions of light years from home after he washed the inside of the computer.

    #251323
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    Why, if there are cinemas on Red Dwarf, and monitors in all of the living spaces, is Lister watching a film in the drive room in Confidence and Paranoia?

    #251324
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    I’m only going by the show, but the first crew death doesn’t need to be of old age, although that would be pretty funny, Kryten being assigned to two ships in a row where all of the crew age to death and he doesn’t understand. It would be utterly tragic if he had any concept of death before Rimmer points it out to him

    #251325
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    well actually the language Lister uses would make it very strange for both deaths not to have happened in similar fashions, but hey ho.

    #251326

    Why, if there are cinemas on Red Dwarf, and monitors in all of the living spaces, is Lister watching a film in the drive room in Confidence and Paranoia?

    I always kinda liked that. It’s a silent and short-hand way of saying that, for better or worse, he has the run of the ship now. Once formal or professional spaces are now stripped of their meaning.

    #251327
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    He’s lazy, I couldn’t be arsed going all the way to the cinema every time I wanted to watch something. Plus the drive room is cosy

    #251328
    Dave
    Member

    There’s that food machine in the Drive Room (well sometimes, anyway), so if he’s eating and drinking then maybe that’s more convenient.

    #251329
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    Given that the Drive Room appears to be modular, it seems like a pretty good place for that kind of stuff

    #251330
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    He’s watching Netflix.

    #251495
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    With the Red Dwarf cinemas, I presume that when the crew was around that a crewmember had to put money/tokens in a machine before a film would be shown. So the Four would have to ask Holly to override the systems in order for a film to be shown for free?

    #251496
    Dave
    Member

    I presume it was free and on demand like everything else.

    #251522
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    I presume it was free and on demand like everything else.

    Which is only the case right up until Officer Rimmer, when suddenly the crew have “tv packages”.

    If we roll that back and assume it’s always been the case, then it would make sense that Holly overrode everything for Lister post accident.

    In fact, in Queeg it’s shown that the dispensing machines need credits to use and Holly is responsible for overriding that.

    If everything was free and on-demand, what would be the point of a cinema at all? Other than the cinema experience I guess.

    #251523
    Dave
    Member

    Yeah, I was going to mention Queeg – my meaning was that post-accident Holly had made everything free for them, and Queeg makes that pretty clear. Presumably pre-accident it would cost a certain number of credits or dollarpounds.

    #251524

    Mind you, Lister gets a chicken soup without credits or any kind of technician token at the start of The End.

    #251525
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    It’s Rimmer that orders it right just after he fixes the machine. Presumably techs get to use the machines for testing as much as is reasonable whilst they’re on duty.

    #251526
    Dave
    Member

    I think there’s a Big Finish spinoff in this.

    #251527
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    Todhunter uncovers an underground black market meal racket, involving technicians ordering food from vending machines whilst on duty, on their duty test system, and re-selling at lower credit prices than the machines usually dispense them for. Hilarity ensues.

    #251528
    Dave
    Member

    “THE VEND”

    #251529
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    In MeSquared, there’s an actual sit-down cinema room, and in another episode Kryten indicates to the Cat that that the RD cinema system shows cartoons (Warner Bros.? MGM?) before the movie.

    #251530
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    What are they watching on in Holoship? From memory it looks like they’re all just sitting on some boxes or plastic chairs or something in front of a little TV

    #251531
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    It’s a little portable TV isn’t it? Like the one they have in the bunk from 3 onwards … because the screen is in totally the wrong place to be useful in the quarters, though good for getting Holly in shot on camera.

    #251532

    Yeah, portable TV on Starbug.

    I love the shitty, lo-tech vibe of the BBC era. Get rid of that widescreen shite on the bunkroom walls and bring back this stuff.

    #251533
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    Same. I like the modern era sets, but the hi-fi tech stuff is too much. The new medi/science room is so flashy

    Give me grimmy, run down ship with big mechanical keyboards and old CRT monitors

    Make it look like it has been thrown together out of parts for industrial use

    #251534
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    No, don’t

    #251535
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Nah, both the original and the new sets are just adhering to the technological trends of when they were made. Maybe in 30 years time the Dave era will look just as quaint for still using flatscreens instead of whatever we’ve got then.

    #251536
    Ridley
    Participant

    Cataracts.

    #251558
    si
    Participant

    Those last two posts present a perfect G&T conversation.

    #251563
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    What do you guys think of Series VIII?

    #251564
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    What’s an iguana?

    #251565
    Hamish
    Member

    Who’s eating this chicken?

    #251566

    Why is Lister constantly trying to fuck his mum in VII and VIII?

    #251567
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    Incest is fine in the future, partly because medical advancements have removed the possibility of birth defects, and partly because there is (VIII notwithstanding) literally no one else

    #251568
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Are we sure that the Kanitawowi are not relatives of the Ewoks? they are just as annoying…

    #251569
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    I do rather like the VIII sets. They seem to mesh the Ocean Grey and the white plastic of previous years.

    #251570

    Incest is fine in the future, partly because medical advancements have removed the possibility of birth defects, and partly because there is (VIII notwithstanding) literally no one else

    You’re saying that, if trapped in the future, with your mum as the only company, you’d lust after her? Is that what you’re saying Ben you filthy mite?

    #251571
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    I wouldn’t, no, but I’m not Lister. And I didn’t have a short relationship with my mum and then pine after her unrequitedly for years and years before ever finding out she was my mum in some fucked up sci-fi time shenanigans, either.

    #251597

    Can you prove it?

    #251632
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    In White Hole, why did they send Rimmer – who can’t touch anything – to gather supplies with Kryten? Cat or Lister should have gone, as then they’d be able to bring back twice as many supplies as they do.

    #251663
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    I suspect they sent Kryten, but Rimmer went to oversee he did a good job like the sort of petty middle manager that he is.

    #251666
    Dave
    Member

    Presumably they needed to concentrate all the key life-support functions for Lister and Cat in a relatively small location. They probably didn’t have enough emergency power to heat the ship throughout the route they would have had to travel on foot to get supplies.

    #251667
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    What does middle manager mean?

    #251669

    Cat and Lister probably sent Rimmer because they didn’t want to be stuck in a room with him for longer than absolutely necessary.

    #251725
    Bezzy
    Participant

    What is Listers goal these days? His plan was to return to Earth but is it still his goal?
    Or is Lister on the hunt for Kochanski these days? It’s not really specified anywhere.

    #251726
    Bezzy
    Participant

    What happened to Snacky?

    #251750
    Dave
    Member

    Dead

    #251752
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    Red Dwarf is so big and Snacky is so slow that he could be roaming the ship desperately trying to find somebody for years

    #251789
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    How do you ride a horse?

    #251791
    si
    Participant

    Carefully.

    #251804
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Hey! Let’s hit it and see what happens!

    #251806
    Dave
    Member

    Sir Danzig?

    #251807
    clem
    Participant

    Rather less well than another horse would.

    #251839

    Why is Red Dwarf painted red everywhere but where the name is? I mean…….. a red spaceship is all fine and dandy but why have a huge splotch of white just so you can paint the name in red. A totally red ship with a white name would still be a red spaceship after all.

    #251841
    (deleted)
    Member

    A wizard did it.

    #251843

    It’s so the name is red. We’d be asking “why is the word red in white?” if it was the other way around.

    #251844
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Wasn’t it so that Rob and Doug never actually intendend for the ship to be painted red.

    #251884
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    It looks better, tbh

    #253075
    tombow
    Member

    In Timeslides I thought they should get a photo of Earth from space, project it large in the hangar and fly Starbug through it

    #253077
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    If always took “the frame” of the photo to mean you couldn’t move around in depth either. If it can’t been seen in the photo you can’t go there. So you might be able to go into orbit around Earth, but not land because none of the surface is in clear focus.

    #253080
    Lily
    Member

    But Rimmer walks around inside Lister’s mansion. The whole building is in the frame so it must allow for depth.

    On a separate note, after just re-watching that scene with Ruby Wax, I’ve literally only just got the joke about ‘never short of an ashtray in his house’. Singles were on cassettes in my day, I’d forgotten about vinyl.

    #253081
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    I would also presume that they have a photo of inside the mansion that is used in that documentry of him. Rimmer doesn’t appear outside fo the mansion and walk in, he appears inside it, which is at odds with how that works.

    I always thought of the ashtray joke as being about CDs, and how they’d all be used to stub cigs out on

    #253082
    Dave
    Member

    I would also presume that they have a photo of inside the mansion that is used in that documentry of him. Rimmer doesn’t appear outside fo the mansion and walk in, he appears inside it, which is at odds with how that works.

    Then you would think there would be someone inside the room taking the photo at the moment when he arrives.

    Same with Holden later.

    #253083
    tombow
    Member

    I like the theory that they can wait for time to pass. Like day to night. I wish they could at least get one of a liverpool pub for him to live in or something? Heck even the Cavern during the Beatles days!

    #253084
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    Then you would think there would be someone inside the room taking the photo at the moment when he arrives.

    Same with Holden later.

    MIND. BLOWN.

    #253085
    Lily
    Member

    The whole ‘can’t move out the frame’ thing is ignored almost as soon as it’s raised. Even the pub they go to, they walk around in when the original is a close up on the band.

    As for the ashtrays, CDs were only just becoming a new thing. Rob & Doug are old, they were remembering these

    #253087
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    I like the theory that they can wait for time to pass. Like day to night.

    It’s just occurred to me that given the photos start moving as soon as they’re *developed*, that’s the point at which time starts progressing within them. It could be projected as a slide some time after it’s developed, and that would for things like the photographer no longer being present. It could also answer the somewhat disturbing question as to why someone was taking photos inside a boys’ dorm while they slept – it could be a photo taken during the daytime, and Rimmer just waits a few hours between developing and projecting the slide.

    #253091
    Dave
    Member

    It’s just occurred to me that given the photos start moving as soon as they’re *developed*, that’s the point at which time starts progressing within them. It could be projected as a slide some time after it’s developed, and that would for things like the photographer no longer being present.

    But then in the wedding photo they were still standing waiting for the photo to be taken. (After it was taken.)

    Maybe best not to overthink it.

    #253110
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    The photographer is surely standing there to take the “next” photo?

    The stuff with “mutating developing fluid” is all well and good (overlooking the question of whether developing fluid would still be used) , but are they implying that they boys have negatives of the Nuremberg rally?

    And what’s the deal with “Lifestyles of the Disgustingly Rich and Famous”? It’s a ‘picture reference’ – what does that mean? Does Holly take a *partial* screenshot of the mansion (because Blaize is standing in the bloody way) and develop that? If so, there are no zero limitations with this. Develop a photo of the Milky Way, snatched from a documentary, if there’s only 2D restrictions.

    THIS EPISODE IS TOTAL BOLLOCKS FROM START TO FINISH.

    #253111
    si
    Participant

    are they implying that they boys have negatives of the Nuremberg rally?

    And how did Lister get so far into the photo and up there?

    #253117
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    If you photoshop yourself into the negative of a photograph, and then develop it, does a second you get to live out its own life in the photo world?

    #253119
    tombow
    Member

    here’s another head canon, you can’t really touch or eat anything in time-slides. You can lift up a mug, or someone can grab you, but it feels ghostly and nothing has taste. Hence Lister wasn’t really hurt in the wedding photo and they didn’t bother to pop in some p*rn.

    #253136
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    The Boys’ plan to use pictures of Page Three Girls in lingerie must have hit a snag…

    #253471
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    terraforming is the answer to everything :-)

    I trust terraforming also includes stabilising the massive gravitational forces pulling Io in all directions…

    #255039
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    I think I remember reading somewhere that they were contemplating solutions if Craig was ‘not available’ for Series 7 due to that unfortunate rape trial like maybe seeing if his brother Emile would do it as a younger version of Lister or something

    #255239
    Bezzy
    Participant

    Was it ever explained how Rimmer went from a Hologram Projection Cage to a portable Light bee?

    My head canon would say Holly just was looking into ways to make it easier for Rimmer to travel outside the ship.

    #255240
    Warbodog
    Member

    It’s odd that Lister doesn’t know about the light bee until Meltdown, but Holly explains it as if it’s always been there. Either another of IV’s retcons and we pretend there never was a projection cage or Rimmer was upgraded at some point with something they found.

    #255241
    Warbodog
    Member

    Why, after deciding that the death of Lister’s son in Future Echoes was too harsh and changing it to his grandson in the novel. did Rob and Doug write the detail of the twins’ accelerated ageing in the Backwards intro, meaning that when Bexley died he was probably about seven, making that much harsher than it had been originally?

    If you actually want an answer to your question, your best bet is to ask Rob and Doug on Twitter

    I’ll do my own put-downs.

    #255243
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    Either another of IV’s retcons

    this is the actual reason isn’t it, they introduce light bees in Infinity, so they add them into the show in IV. If you want to headcannon that is was additional tech they’ve found and upgraded Rimmer with you can, but surely Lister would remember that. Especially remembering that at one point, they had to lug that bloody great big cage down to a moon just to celebrate Rimmer’s death.

    Unless that memory was wiped as well.

    #255266
    Bezzy
    Participant

    My only guess is that the projection cage was used solely for ‘outside’ jaunts . Holly must have projected him from the Blue Midget into the Nova 5.

    #255269
    GlenTokyo
    Member

    In the Red Dwarf universe, the hologram file format is probably like .mp4 is in ours, everyone has something that can play them.

    Ships and interiors probably come with holoemitters and you just sync with the computer to show the hologram.

    As for lightbees, either the research decks where they got the matter paddle from, or a derelict, maybe even the Nova 5 given how it was considerably newer than Red Dwarf and it’s technology.

    Look at Kryten compared to the contemporary to Lister humanoid androids we see, the bellhops in Stasis Leak, shows how far ahead he is.

    #255286
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    Oh Christ yeah, we see Rimmer outside of the ship without the cage BEFORE it’s introduced. What the fuck? It’s recton’d in and retcon’d out in under half an hour

    #255295
    Bezzy
    Participant

    Yeah as I said my only thoughts are that the cage was only needed if it was outside on a planet.

    In Kryten they use the Blue Midget, which Holly is in (maybe to sustain Rimmer).
    I’m guessing the Midget connects to the Nova rather than the boys hopping over from ship to ship. Then Holly projects Rimmer across to the Nova 5 or something .

    #255297
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    The cage doesn’t actually project Rimmer; it projects holograms of other things for Rimmer to touch and fondle. Cos it’s his Death Day and he’s into that shit.

    #255298
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    But they bring the Midget down to the planet/moon, and they aren’t particularly far from it, and Rimmer eats a sandwich in that one episode, and, and, and, and…………………

    #255299
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    Did Rimmer have to learn how to “sit down” or is it programmed into him to just automatically bend himself into the exact shape of whatever chair he goes to sit in and not clip through it? Is he really just bending in an incredibly odd way and making it look like he’s sitting down? Isn’t that uncomfortable? If Rimmer can feel a hot shower and taste a sandwich he must have some experience of comfort or lack thereof, unless they just decide not to simulate that kind of thing

    #255307
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    I’m guessing the Midget connects to the Nova rather than the boys hopping over from ship to ship.

    Then why the need for the space suits. Assumption must be that Blue Midget landed close to Nova 5 and they had to walk across the surface of the moon to get to it.

    #255310
    GlenTokyo
    Member

    Every bit of furniture or boundary in Red Dwarf has a hit box like a video game.

    When Rimmer sits on a chair he’s sitting on a hologrammatic version thats nested with the real one etc

    So really, Rimmer can touch things. He can rest his arms on a table, or arse on a chair, but he can’t affect anything.

    Get that script rewritten.

    #255322
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Its possible that the light bee was an upgrade from the Space Corps that arrived by post pod.

    #255329
    GlenTokyo
    Member

    That would also explain the gradual tech improvements but they wouldn’t have kept sending post to Red Dwarf after the accident, or maybe they would, but only to Lister (assuming Holly transmitted a message “all but one on board lost, just need to pop to the Andromeda galaxy for something, see you in 3 million years xxx”

    And what would they send, mail from friends and family (who he’d then call slags) and maybe food, not sure about technology, unless they sent a timedrive and a FTL engine.

    #256549
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    surely the absolute worst thing in the “Backwards” reality would be reverse vomiting. Also, would a reverse blow-job s u c k for the woman?

    #256557
    Dave
    Member

    I remember them doing that gag in Round The Twist.

    The first one, anyway.

    #257782
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    By the way, why does Kryten feel the need to differentiate between simulants and “rogue droids”?

    #257785
    Veni
    Member

    Simulants were created with the intention they’d be used in war.

    Rogue droids would be like Asclepius who just went computer senile overtime.

    #257786
    Flap Jack
    Member

    I also feel that a simulant has to look realistically like a person and be part-organic, while a “rogue droid” could just look like Snacky.

    #257790
    tombow
    Member

    I feel like I asked this already on this thread, but I can’t see it…at the end of Timeslides, why did lone Holly activate Rimmer?
    ,

    #257791
    Veni
    Member

    Technically, Holly wouldn’t have been female Holly as without Lister there’d be no reason to try and create the Holly Hop Drive and ensuring Parallel Universe occured.

    #257795
    tombow
    Member

    I’ve always been curious about the first activation of Rimmer’s hologram and how long it was before Lister woke up. I got the impression he had been hanging round for a while somehow. He seemed to be used to it all when Lister first meets him.

    #257797
    Veni
    Member

    It couldn’t have been too long before Lister was released as he was unfamiliar with the Cat, I assume he was activated the moment Lister was awakened.

    #257799
    Hamish
    Member

    I assume Holly gave him an orientation before hand.

    #257802
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    From what i know, Kryten’s home era is about 200 years after RD was forced to flee the Solar System. He has to tell the others what simulants are, so the first simulants must have been created after Lister and Rimmer’s time period.

    #257821
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    I figured that Holly could very likely have activated Rimmer seconds before he walked through the door. Digitally downloading the current mission status (crew dead, species dead, Lister alive, ship lost) instantly.

    #257836
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Yeah, there’s the beginning of a line in Holoship that you can head-canon for this.

    “As Holly has already told you…” Lister says to Sam Murray as soon as his hologram is switched on. Seems a bit odd that Holly would switch him earlier on just to explain stuff to him, and then switch him off while the next candidate is being “interviewed”, so I expect this is really a virtual transfer of information.

    It’s all pretend, you know.

    #257837
    Dave
    Member

    Once they work out how to have Holly sustain two holograms in Confidence & Paranoia, why don’t they bring someone else back (after the second Rimmer gets deleted) rather than reverting to just one again?

    George McIntyre could have become a series regular!

    #257838
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    It’s a power issue, isn’t it? They have to turn loads of shit off in order to power two holograms. Although we don’t see this, and Lister can still go to the cinema, and Holly still works, I think it is mentioned in dialogue.

    #257839
    Dave
    Member

    Yeah, I think it is mentioned but like you say there don’t really seem to be any negative effects while two holograms are running.

    #257840
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Even though the TV version of the Better Than Life game wasn’t lethal, would the creators really want to make it easy for players to leave? Even in the TV episode they fooled the boys into thinking they could just stop the game – until the loan shark showed up.

    #257841
    Dave
    Member

    Maybe they never left.

    #257842
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    He’s not a loan shark, he’s a taxman.

    Incidentally, in the novels, I don’t think Better Than Life is *designed* to make it difficult to leave. It’s just an unforeseen side-effect of how well it convinces you it’s reality, and how your *subconscious* will try and prevent you from leaving.

    #257850
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Part of Holly’s major plan is to resurrect Kochanski from her canister of ashes, so she can grow young with Lister.

    How come Rimmer doesn’t think of resurrecting himself in the same manner, so he doesn’t have to be a hologram any more?

    (Maybe because he wouldn’t have a ‘gimmick’ any more. He’d just be a boring ol’ smeghead)

    #257851
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    In-universe, you’d have a bit of a troublesome quandary over the nature of identity. This is kind of raised by Rimmer’s plan in Stasis Leak to put his other self in stasis so there would be two hims (one alive, one dead). Obviously, there’s a clunking big paradox in the way of this plan, but Rimmer’s end-goal of this makes no sense either. If there were two Hims (one for the week, one for Sunday best), it doesn’t actually benefit the dead Rimmer in any way. He would still be dead. And as several other episodes prove, Rimmer selfishness extends to variations of his own persona.

    So Rimmer would prefer to be “him” and a hologram, than a variation of him that isn’t *him* be alive.

    Oh, I’ve gone cross-eyed.

    #257852
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    I was about to say something along those lines – resurrecting the “alive” Rimmer would “kill” the “dead” Rimmer, which might be good for “Rimmer”, but wouldn’t be very good for “Rimmer”, hacktually.

    #257853
    Veni
    Member

    >hacktually

    He’s a bloody shambles

    #257854
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    In the novel, Rimmer uses his ••••• of a mum as a model for a wife.

    Of course, Better Than Life delves into the subconscious and the deep, dark recesses of the mind – it doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that Rimmer has a hidden Oedipal desire.

    #257855
    Veni
    Member

    That’s timely, I have to write an essay on the theme of the Oedipus myth tonight.

    #258041
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Why do people that go to baby changing stations always come back with the same baby?

    #258043
    Hamish
    Member

    Where do babies even come from?

    #258285
    Dave
    Member

    I wonder when George McIntyre’s hologram was switched off. Would he have watched the crew die and then hung around for three million years, right up until the point before Lister comes out of stasis? Would he have immediately been switched off and replaced with a hologram of Hollister once the crew was wiped out (who would have then been replaced by Rimmer)? Or would there be no holograms around at all between the accident and Lister coming out of stasis?

    #258286
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    Maybe emergency systems on Red Dwarf automatically shut down the hologram to preserve energy etc, so once a radiation leak was detected, he was just shut off automatically, along with the hold being sealed off.

    Now, Holly does say he shut the hold off, but there’s definitely automated systems aboard Red Dwarf, so the conscious part of Holly could still consider these automated systems a part of himself even if he has no conscious input into the action.

    #258288

    Why does Lister pronounce ‘hummus’ so weirdly?

    #258292
    Dave
    Member

    How does Ace Rimmer discover what the point of divergence is between him and ‘our’ Rimmer?

    #258293
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    yoomins

    #258296
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    How does Ace Rimmer discover what the point of divergence is between him and ‘our’ Rimmer?

    Through the hole in the plot? ;)

    #258303
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    It doesn’t take a great leap to be fair, he could have just read Rimmer’s file or swapped notes with Holly – their divergence was quite a major event in their lives, and one that you’d easily notice just from seeing what year he left school.

    #258310
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Maybe there was a boy in the year below who had long flowing locks, and that was why Ace decided to copy that hairstyle. He’d be able to work it out just from looking at Arnie’s haircut.

    #258311
    Flap Jack
    Member

    Regarding George McIntyre, if the process for selecting the currently active hologram is automatic, then it’s possible George was switched off as soon as someone more important than him died, then they were switched off as soon as someone more important than them died, and so on, cycling through several/dozens of crew members until finally settling on the Captain.

    (I’m just assuming that this “most essential” calculation is largely based on rank if the mission is still viable and personality if it isn’t, because if a hologram is non-corporeal, then they’re only strictly useful for their knowledge, which Holly would have anyway.)

    Alternatively, if the process is not so immediate/automatic, George would be switched off when the dust had settled in favour of Hollister.

    You could write a bleak, not at all funny fanfic about Holoster, recounting how he spent the next weeks/months/years alone with Holly until ultimately deciding he’d rather be switched off. Maybe including monologues given to Lister’s stasis booth, and a part where he instructs Holly to ensure that the cats will be able to survive.

    #258312
    bloodteller
    Member

    > Why does Lister pronounce ‘hummus’ so weirdly?

    he doesn’t, does he? i’ve always pronounced it like that and never been corrected on it, and i’m fairly sure i’ve heard other people say it like that too. how do you pronounce it?

    #258313
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    Oh I thought he meant “humans” not “hummus” lol. How do you pronounce hummus?

    #258314

    I pronounce it how it’s spelled and, in my experience, universally pronounced. Humm-us. As opposed to hyu-mus.

    #258315
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    In what episode does Lister say hyu-mus? That’s bonkers

    #258317
    si
    Participant

    I’d never heard of hummus when I first saw that episode, so I just assumed it was the correct pronunciation. It’s only in the past few years I’ve realised that it’s not.

    (Although I’ve just realised that Bongo pronounced it correctly – ‘humm-us’ – in Dimension Jump, didn’t he? Well, Lister’s pronunciation didn’t make realise they were talking about the same thing.)

    #258319
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    When Lister tells Kryten to “Tell it to hair”, whose hair does he mean?

    #258320
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Kryten’s home era is at least several hundred years after the Red Dwarf fled the solar system.

    There would be records as to how human history viewed the loss of the ship.

    Holly would have sent a message to Space Corps HQ on Earth when the accident happened, surely?

    #258321
    bloodteller
    Member

    i’ve always pronounced it hyu-mus (or hoo-muss) and heard plenty of people say it that way. that’s always been the more common way of pronouncing it from my experience

    also- on some packages of the stuff, i’ve seen it spelled “houmous” but on others “hummus” which is just confusing. it’s one thing to have two different pronunciations of the word but two different spellings?

    #258322
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Another Question: Had Graham Chapman never got sick, could he have uplifted “Timeslides”?

    (i hate Ruby Wax; Rimmer, please ask Stabem the Scutter to deal with her!)

    #258325
    Offline
    Member

    Seeing darling Graham in such a short role would be a terrible waste.

    #258335
    Hamish
    Member

    > it’s one thing to have two different pronunciations of the word but two different spellings?

    #258336
    Hamish
    Member

    > Kryten’s home era is at least several hundred years after the Red Dwarf fled the solar system. There would be records as to how human history viewed the loss of the ship.

    Sure, but are you aware of every maritime tragedy of the last 200 years?

    #258340
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    I’m not aware of every airline tragedy of the last 200 years, but I know about Amelia Earhart and MH370 that went missing without a trace.

    Presumably Red Dwarf just completely disappearing would make it a fairly big deal that *everyone* would be talking about.

    Not to mention, Kryten has been showing to have an almost encyclopaedic knowledge of history, given he is a robot.

    #258343

    it’s one thing to have two different pronunciations of the word but two different spellings?

    It’s because it comes from a place that doesn’t use the Western alphabet, and has thus been translated differently in different times and places. Hummus is the ‘standard’ spelling, but there are plenty of different ones.

    See also: poppadom (aka papadum, poppadam, pappadam, puppodum, pappadum, etc).

    #258345
    Offline
    Member

    Kryten has been shown to have an encyclopedic knowledge of certain topics but a woefully dismal databank in terms of others, most notably women’s periods, which is odd since he is a sanitation droid and should be adept in human anatomy, unless he was built to serve on all-male Italian starships.

    The horror.

    #258348

    Bras and periods are things you’d imagine he’d have some idea about, given the crew of the Nova 5.

    #258351
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    The gaps in Kryten’s knowledge are a consequence of there being no internet in the Red Dwarf universe. All his information is stored locally, so he has to delete things that are no longer relevant to free up space.

    #258353
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    KRYTEN. : My head is littered with unnecessary information, sir. The ability to sing the Bay City Rollers’ greatest hits is no longer a priority. For most cultural purposes, crooning “Bye Bye Baby” is more than sufficient.

    This is In the same episode where he talks about having a “histo-chip”. So, um…yeah.

    I think they’re making this stuff up as they go along, you know.

    #258360
    Hamish
    Member

    > Presumably Red Dwarf just completely disappearing would make it a fairly big deal that *everyone* would be talking about.

    I guess it depends on just how mundane Red Dwarf as a ship was, and how common accidents such as these were. We have no idea how many ships the JMC had in their fleet, or with how much significance the vessel was viewed.

    Crew numbers also affect this. 169 people lost is different kind of tragedy from 1,169 people lost, just in terms of scale if nothing else.

    #258361
    JamesTC
    Participant

    >Bras and periods are things you’d imagine he’d have some idea about, given the crew of the Nova 5.

    LISTER: How come you don’t know what bras are? What about the women on the Nova 5?
    KRYTEN: Well, when I cleaned up my cache files, sir, I erased my lingerie database. I didn’t see there’s be much call for it, unless we had a fancy dress party, and you wanted to go as Herman Goering.

    #258367
    Offline
    Member

    Oh look at all of you with your recollection of key dialogue, evidence and plausible theories to support your claims.

    #258384
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    In Tikka to Ride, Red Dwarf uses the common allegation that J. Edgar Hoover was a transvestite (a mocked up photo of Hoover in ladieswear and makeup appears on Kryten’s chest monitor). Hoover was a lot of very bad things, and held some very horrible views, but hasn’t the transvestite thing been debunked?

    #258385

    Is being a transvestite very bad? How come Hoguey has the…gun thing at the end of The Beginning when Lister took it from him earlier? To be honest, the second question I just pulled out of my Quagaars, I hope people will concentrate on the first question.

    #258388
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    No, being a crossdresser is not a bad thing, it’s a very unfortunate “of its time” joke, much like calling Göring a “drug-crazed transvestite”, as if that was the worst of his crimes. I wouldn’t cancel anybody over thinking crossdressing was funny 30 years ago, but I’d confront them about it today.

    #258391
    Offline
    Member

    Of its time?

    Time?

    Time.

    Time. Wave.

    Timewave.

    #258395
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    ” I wouldn’t cancel anybody over thinking crossdressing was funny 30 years ago,”

    It was still bigoted and insensitive against the gender diverse thirty years ago in the 1990s. We rightly don’t give people of the past a pass on being racist or sexist just because they were able to get away with calling buxom women “jiggles” and black men “boy”.

    #258396
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    This is true, but I think what Ben was getting at was how much and how quickly attitudes have changed in a relatively short space of time. Barbara in The League of Gentlemen is an absolute abomination, but nobody batted an eyelid at the time. Kryten being classified as a woman simply because he doesn’t have a penis manages to be incredibly offensive to trans people, non-binary people and cis women, which hardly gets a mention. You wouldn’t get programmes like There’s Something About Miriam any more, full stop. Hayley in Coronation Street was a big positive factor in educating people and changing attitudes, but even then, if you were casting that role today, you wouldn’t cast a cis woman, as undoubtedly brilliant in the part as Julie Hesmondhalgh was.

    I guess what I’m getting at is that the intent behind something is important. You’re right that things shouldn’t get a free pass because they happened in the past, they should still be questioned and held up for criticism, but what’s also important is how the perpetrators feel now. The League of Gents went some way to address the Barbara issue in the recent reunion specials, for example. On a different but similar theme, Matt Lucas has acknowledged and apologised for the dodgier elements of Little Britain and Come Fly With Me, which doesn’t absolve the offensive things they did completely, but the fact that he realises where he went wrong and regrets it makes me feel more at ease with calling myself a fan of his. (Walliams is still a dick, though) Conversely, while there’s very little wrong with Father Ted, Big Train or Black Books in terms of offensive attitudes, I wouldn’t describe myself as a fan of Graham Linehan any more, because he’s a bigoted cunt.

    I guess ultimately, in terms of our favourite show, whenever Red Dwarf wanders into dodgy territory now, it’s far worse than when things from 21-32 years ago seem dodgy in retrospect. As it is, the stuff in Series VIII results in an eye roll rather than a vitriolic rant. I’m far more angry about Timewave than I ever was about Series VIII, partly because I didn’t realise the potential for offence in 1999, and nor would the vast vast majority of the viewing public, but by 2016/7, everyone involved should absolutely know better.

    #258398
    Offline
    Member

    That’s what baffles me about Doug when it comes to Timewave. As much as it wasn’t its intent, Red Dwarf through the original run did explore a lot of issues through the lens of comedy in very well-handled ways. Yes there were clunkers like Kryten being classified as a woman for a few cheap visual gags but overall, they got it right in terms of the writing and the approach.

    But Timewave? I mean, did everyone just read it, cast and crew alike and all laugh away without the merest thought of maybe this ain’t kosher? Doug is the big boss at the end of the day but there’s a history of him actively listening to everyone around him during every stage of production. Nobody said maybe this is a bit shallow here, a bit dated there, a touch offensive at this point?

    Strange episode, strange script, strange everything, I wonder how Doug feels about Timewave in retrospective.

    #258399

    Barbara from the League of Gents is an interesting one, as she’s the most well-rounded, sympathetic character living in the village, and the core idea of the joke is cabbies talk too much about stuff you don’t really want to know, so what if that was something very personal and, at the time, seen as a bit weird / almost taboo. But at no point are we invited to think of her as a freak in the way we are everybody else in Royston Vasey.
    But then the way it’s shown on screen totally undermines it by cutting to shots of hairy legs in a dress with raucous audience laughter and such. I think her character could actually exist in a much more respectful way with relatively few tweaks to the script and a much more sympathetic translation from page to screen.
    I still haven’t seen the reunion episodes, but I’m curious to see how she’s handled in them.

    #258401
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    I do believe you have to judge something by the standards of its time, rather than try to apply modern attitudes to it – one would like to believe that their moral standards are an immutable and steadfast part of their identity, but they’re just as much a product of your environment and upbringing, and there’s no way to truly say how you would view things were you born in 1940s Texas, for example, so to morally grandstand over somebody who was is extremely questionable. It is important not to give things “a pass” for being old, true, and it’s fine to dislike something because it makes you feel uncomfortable, but essentially what Ian said is spot on, as well. Unfortunately, making fun of men dressing as woman was just something countless comedies did in the 90s (Friends veers directly into transphobia with the character of Chandler’s dad, which I find much more objectionable now than I did when I watched it in 2003).

    #258402
    Dave
    Member

    Yeah I feel like we’re all more or less on the same page here. Obviously comedy, like any art, is to some extent a product of its time and will reflect the general attitudes and moral standpoints of the day.

    That doesn’t excuse jokes or lines or characters that are by today’s standards clearly “a bit dodgy”, but it might help us to understand them and the context in which they were made.

    But even then there can be quite a spectrum in terms of how unkindly or sympathetically these things are presented.

    In general I think the first six series of Red Dwarf are pretty good in this area and most elements that could risk offending are justified by the setting and characters – eg.most examples of objectification of women are rooted in the perspectives of the all-male crew, and even criticised stuff like Parallel Universe is mostly ok for me as again it’s heavily tied to the characters.

    There are odd lines here and there that might now feel a bit tone-deaf but by and large it’s a show with a pretty decent moral compass.

    Which is why the broader and less thoughtful gags in VII and particularly VIII clang so badly, and why the Dave-era clangers like the slag line and the Chinese whispers stuff were (rightly) singled out for criticism.

    But even given those, Timewave is another level of tone-deafness. At best I think it’s misguided, but really it’s more than that, and it feels baffling that nobody stepped in and said “hang on a minute…” at some point.

    #258410
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    How does J. Edgar Hoover become President in the alt-history in Tikka to Ride? Johnson was the vice-president. If Kennedy is removed from office Johnson would become President. Head of the FBI is not in the chain of command.

    #258411

    They never said that Hoover assumed the position of president as a result of Kennedy’s impeachment.
    In fact, they state that he was elected – and that he been forced to run for president by the Mafia.

    So presumably Johnson served the remainder of Kennedy’s term, but then lost the subsequent 1964 election to Hoover, who by this point had left the FBI in favour of running for the presidency.
    Simples.

    #258413
    Dave
    Member

    Who chose the replacement music over George McIntyre’s funeral that’s used on the Netflix version?

    #258415
    si
    Participant

    If Rimmer’s duplicate in Me² is projected using Rimmer’s disc (as hidden in Kochanski’s box [fnaar]), what’s projecting Rimmer?

    #258416
    Dave
    Member

    I always presumed you didn’t need the disc running full time, you just loaded the latest backup from the disc and then it could run. Like installing something from a disc.

    So it’s Rimmer’s disc, and it loads the same saved version that originally appeared when Holly first resurrected Rimmer.

    (Although I don’t know how Rimmer-2 knows to say the “he did warn you” line.)

    #258417

    Why did they never load another hologram after the events of Me²?

    #258418
    Dave
    Member

    Hold on, we did that one barely a month ago.

    #258419
    Offline
    Member

    Is Craig Charles a rapist?

    #258420
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    And given he mentions in The Man In The Rubber Mask” about “understanding the issues” about why women under report rape, what convinced BobbyLllew about Charles’s innocence?

    #258423
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Yes, this seems an appropriate way for this thread to develop. Shush now.

    #258448
    Offline
    Member

    Sorry, chief, I meant it flippantly but it does look rather tricky.

    #258909
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Why are both Kennedy and Nixon still taught about in schools in Lister and Rimmer’s era?

    Surely people with a greater impact on the historical memory will have emerged in the three hundred years between now and then. There are plenty of English/Scots/British monarchs and American presidents who were well known in their own time but are now obscure outside specialst circles.

    #258910
    Dave
    Member

    I dunno, we still get taught about Alexander the Great and Napoleon and Henry Tulip.

    #259042
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    “Henry Tulip”

    Ah, a Series One of Blackadder fan?

    I always wondered what Henry does after he takes power to Princess Leia of Hungary after Edmund and the rest die.

    #259378
    Dave
    Member

    “You can take two suits and that’s it.”

    Why is Cat limited to such a small quantity of personal possessions in stasis, when Lister seems to have been able to preserve many more different outfits for himself during his own three million years?

    #259379
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    Why do they have to take their clothes and possessions into Stasis with them when clearly everything else on the ship has managed to last 3 million years already? All of Lister’s clothes, the toaster, the furniture, everything.

    #259380
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    How does history buff Rimmer have a hole in his knowledge such that he confuses Christopher Columbus with Colombo?

    Why didn’t they just go into stasis after Future Echoes? Also, couldn’t they have just brought a light bee of Rimmer in there with them if he was afraid of being switched off?

    Why is Lister the focus of the Red Dwarf crew’s inquiry at the start of Series VIII when he’s the least big deal of that Starbug group, compared to say, a senior navigation officer as well as an android and evolved cat that shouldn’t really exist by the normal crew’s standards?

    Why did Kochanski’s hair change from the end of Nanarchy into Back in the Red? (Are we assuming nanobots?) (also, is it fair to even bring up Series VIII in this thread, since it’s basically shooting fish in a barrel?)

    If Lister is his own dad, how can there be an alternate Lister when the Inquisitor erases him from history?

    More to the point, if Lister’s his own dad with Kochanski, meaning 50% Lister and 50% Kochanski, but that 50% that’s Lister is itself 50% Kochanski, then how many iterations of the time loop will it take before he’s just effectively 100% Kochanski?

    Why does that shot out the cockpit window in the beginning of Marooned look so rubbish?

    Why don’t they go inside the cockpit once Starbug crashes in Marooned? Are we assuming it’s crushed beyond repair?

    How long did Gordon wait for Holly’s move in postal chess before he gave up?

    Why do they even still hang out with Rimmer after the shit he pulls in Bodyswap and Quarantine?

    Did nobody from the original crew seriously not stumble into the Stasis Leak just using the shower and wind up as white powder?

    Are we assuming Series VII-era Lister used the Time Drive to go back into the events of Stasis Leak as Future Lister, or has that timeline been averted somehow? And where were Future Cat and Kryten?

    When Holly decided to create Queeg to make a point, was that decision after he almost killed Lister with the yellow cable? Which is to say, was he trolling the whole time, or did he sincerely fuck up in that moment?

    Why did they decide to go back to pursue Red Dwarf when the Legion Station literally had everything they could ever need, both survival-wise and sanity-wise?

    #259381
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    Rimmer is a pretend “history buff”, that’s just what he tells women, he’s just really into Napoleon and diesel engines

    Bringing the light bee in is a good point, bloody hell. You could have him on as well, he wouldn’t take up much space, being incorporeal (irl excuse: the light bee hadn’t been made up yet)

    Hollister just hates Lister and can get away with punishing him the most

    Alternate Lister is also his own dad

    Marooned shot looks rubbish because it was filmed handheld and you can’t do bluescreen properly like that

    Rimmer was mentally ill in Quarantine to be fair

    I have no idea what you’re talking about with Stasis Leak

    Regarding Legion: “imprisonment is an injury regardless of how you justify it” – Captain Picard

    #259382
    Dave
    Member

    In Future Echoes they don’t go into stasis afterwards because they know they’re not meant to from seeing all the future echoes of their future selves. That’s the whole point, innit.

    As for Legion, in Series VI they’re worried about Holly having been kidnapped, and more broadly they want to get Red Dwarf back so that they can continue heading to Earth, and in Legion specifically they are asked to stay there until they die, so there are lots of reasons really.

    #259383
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Good point, well made.

    #259384
    Dave
    Member

    I have no idea what you’re talking about with Stasis Leak

    Presumably that the portal leading from future-Red-Dwarf to the showers goes both ways, and someone from the past could accidentally wander through it and kill themselves. Which I hadn’t ever really thought about.

    #259385
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    I meant the thing about Series VII-era Lister going back to the events of Stasis Leak with the Time Drive… I really don’t know what they mean

    #259386
    clem
    Participant

    Not going into stasis is explained in the novel like this: “Since Lister realized he couldn’t possibly go into stasis, on the grounds that the future echoes of himself had told him that he didn’t, he decided he wouldn’t, and instead he’d tried to make the best of a difficult situation.” Which seems like an ontological paradox to me, because where does Lister’s decision not to go into stasis originate?

    > Why don’t they go inside the cockpit once Starbug crashes in Marooned? Are we assuming it’s crushed beyond repair?

    After they’ve crashed and ascertained that they can’t take off, I don’t see why they’d go into the cockpit. It’s not necessarily “crushed beyond repair” – they just don’t need to be in there and would rather be in the midsection I suppose.

    #259387
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    deleted – just seen someone made the exact same point.

    #259388
    si
    Participant

    Why did Kochanski’s hair change from the end of Nanarchy into Back in the Red?

    Chloe Annett didn’t have a haircut.

    #259389
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Regarding Stasis Leak, I’m referring to how Future Lister goes, “In five years time, you find another way to go back in time.” But then we never see this followed up on (which is fine, but still an unanswered question).

    If I’m not mistaken, seeing as Lister characterizes his adventuring as around six years when talking to Rimmer at the start of Series VIII, I always wondered, given what we know now, if Lister did end up going back to marry pre-accident Kochanski five years later, from which era of the show does that Future Lister hail from?

    Seeing as how in Series VII, they have a version of the Time Drive that lets them go anywhere & when, and seeing how even in Ouroboros, Lister at the end takes the time to close the time loop and drop off his baby self, one could possibly conclude that the Future Lister and Future Rimmer we see in Stasis Leak are actually Lister and Rimmer at the start of Series VII, at a point between Tikka to Ride and Stoke Me a Clipper since they’d have the newer Time Drive but before Rimmer left Starbug.

    Just generally referring to the unanswered question of “Did Lister ever become the Future Lister we see in Stasis Leak, even if offscreen?” Sorry for the confusion.

    Also, thanks for referring to the novel regarding not going into stasis. Makes sense. And regarding ontological paradoxes, I like Steven Moffat’s concept of those. He was talking about Heaven Sent and basically explained that the first go-around might have played out differently, but once the loop gets going, it “tightens” over repeated iterations until it finally settles into a consistent equilibrium. That for me makes every ontological paradox I see in media much more palatable.

    #259390

    Doesn’t Rimmer do his ‘Mayday’ bit from the cockpit in Marooned?

    As for Legion, I’ve wondered that myself: if I were them, I’d have chosen to stay there even before Legion tried to push it on them.

    When they had the time drive, why didn’t they go back to the time and place where they’d left Red Dwarf? Then they could have been the ones who stole it (more amusing than nanobots) and the time drive would have had a sensible purpose.

    #259391
    Dax101
    Participant

    Rimmer is not a history buff per say. he just looks up to men with authority. which is the history he knows the most about.

    #259393
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    I’m 90% certain that Rimmer’s mayday bit was at the workstations at the front corners of the midsection. Because he’s trying to send a signal as Lister comes back in from the snow in the background behind him.

    #259394
    quinn_drummer
    Participant

    When they had the time drive, why didn’t they go back to the time and place where they’d left Red Dwarf? Then they could have been the ones who stole it (more amusing than nanobots) and the time drive would have had a sensible purpose.

    Too busy going back and stealing curry supplies from themselves … and assassinating themselves, and *then* a POTUS. So ya know, busy lads. Probably had planned to use it to get Red Dwarf back and just forgot.

    #259395
    Flap Jack
    Member

    I’m still ride-or-die for the “the future crew from Stasis Leak are the same future crew from Out of Time” theory. It just makes too much sense.

    #259396
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Oh snap… I never even thought of that! You’ve convinced me. Thanks!

    #259397
    si
    Participant

    I’m still ride-or-die for the “the future crew from Stasis Leak are the same future crew from Out of Time” theory. It just makes too much sense.

    Rimmer’s got a moustache, for a start.

    #259398
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    and an H on his forehead.

    #259399
    pendo86
    Participant

    On the topic of Stasis Leak. Why does stepping into a leaky stasis booth bring them out into a shower room? Is the shower room directly behind the stasis booth? How has the stasis field leaked into the shower room? And why does it allow them to walk through walls?

    As the stasis leak preserves whatever it’s leaked into, presumably every time they step through the “rent in the space-time continuum” they should always appear at the same date and time (22nd March 2077) so why do they not bump into themselves and appear there at the exact same time as other versions?

    They travel to just before Lister has been put into stasis so why doesn’t he do as Rimmer tries to do and save himself? Why doesn’t he warn Hollister about the faulty drive plate and get them to evacuate the ship whilst stationed on Ganymede?

    #259410

    I suppose causality stops that from happening: if he hadn’t survived the accident, he wouldn’t have been able to go back and warn them. Also, he’s told in five years time they find another way to go back in time, although admittedly he finds that out a long time after he could have warned Hollister.

    Didn’t they mention in the recent Dwarfcast that someone did a list or Twitter thread or something where they had every time Lister could actually have gone back to Earth?

    #259411

    Why is there a raw sprout in Starbug in Marooned?

    #259413
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Didn’t they mention in the recent Dwarfcast that someone did a list or Twitter thread or something where they had every time Lister could actually have gone back to Earth?

    Yarp, this tweet and the replies: https://twitter.com/ganymedetitan/status/1254812028188966914

    The universal explanation for why something predicted in one episode didn’t transpire in a future episode is that they’ve fucked around with their timeline so much (Timeslides, Out of Time, Tikka, Ouroboros) that the predicted futures have been rewritten.

    An even more universal explanation for anything you can’t reconcile is that Series III onwards takes place in a parallel universe to Series 1&2. It’s Multiverse 101.

    #259418

    ffs, it was two months ago and I even replied to one of the responses. What’s become of my memory?

    #259426
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Yeah, the Fucked Up Timeline Theory (or FUTT). That actually makes perfect sense, and I remember hearing about that years ago, and on some level I’ve actually subscribed to a version of that, which best explains the changing centuries of their “present day” as well as the fluctuating Red Dwarf original crew count, Lister’s history with Kochanski being retooled, and why Lister had his appendix out twice (although that could’ve also been reconstituted in D.N.A.). The Infinite Temporal Flux abides.

    Mind you, that can actually explain any discrepancy the more I think about it.

    Not sure how I feel about Series III onward being a separate continuity from I and II, seeing as they do explain the progression of events in the Backwards crawl.

    I think the more important question is: Did Rimmer always know damn well that sprouts make Lister chuck, or did he learn that by watching Lister trying to eat the raw sprout in Marooned?

    Also, we already know there’s a botanical garden on Red Dwarf, so why would they eat the last strawberry in the universe instead of just trying to plant it?

    #259429
    GlenTokyo
    Member

    @Renegade Rob, on the Marooned cockpit shot looking cack, it’s simple.

    Ed goes “Right chaps, what we’re going to do here is blue screen over there, and then have a lovely handheld shot moving from the midsection to the cockpit, and we’ll put the landing bay in the background. Ok? Lovely.”

    Then the shot it and remembered it was 1989 and they couldn’t track in a background plate on a handheld shot, or any shot. They’d have had to have done it motion control.

    Also there’s a lot of blue spill so it would likely have been atrocious even if they could have done it.

    A locked off shot could’ve worked but I don’t know whether the landing bay model would have been detailed enough to look to scale.

    It’s long been my ambition to actually attempt to fix that scene with various 3D modelling and video editing software, one day. I was hoping they’d do it for the Blu-ray but nah.

    As for the post crash. I don’t think it’s implied the cockpit is crushed, but to show the cockpit from most angles, they would have had to have shown snow against the windows of Starbug, and the set has no actual windows, just holes, so it’s cheaper to just stay in the midsection.

    #259431
    Dave
    Member

    Also, we already know there’s a botanical garden on Red Dwarf, so why would they eat the last strawberry in the universe instead of just trying to plant it?

    When they get that strawberry out in Demons & Angels, it always makes me think how wasteful Lister and Kryten were by chucking all those fresh strawberries in the bin in The Last Day.

    They seem to have gone from blasé disregard for fresh strawberries to hushed reverence very quickly.

    #259447
    Hamish
    Member

    And the moral of the story is: Appreciate what you’ve got, because basically, Strawberries are fantastic.

    #259455
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    I can picture Rimmer force-feeding Lister strawberries

    #259456
    bloodteller
    Member

    why do they say its the last strawberry in the universe? surely all they know for sure is that its the last strawberry on the ship, unless they frequently fly around in some sort of fruit-detector shuttle

    #259457
    Dave
    Member

    They should audition for where’s my fruit.

    #259461
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    If they worked half as hard to get more strawberries as they did to get some fucking lemons, I’d say obtaining any fruit is within their power.

    #259462
    Katydid
    Participant

    why do they say its the last strawberry in the universe? surely all they know for sure is that its the last strawberry on the ship, unless they frequently fly around in some sort of fruit-detector shuttle

    I don’t think “This is the last strawberry we’re aware of onboard this ship that is the Red Dwarf mining ship the Red Dwarf” is a very good opening line, and not just because I had a stroke halfway through typing it.

    #259474
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    There aren’t a lot of episodes that wouldn’t have been improved by an opening SOS Holly narration laying out their current fruit supply situation. Not too much to ask for.

    Also something I never was clear on: Were the vending machines it was their job to repair meant to be some version of a replicator? They could comprehend custom milkshake orders but also just dictate what the fish of the day was. So was the food molecularly assembled each time or was there actual food stuff being conveyed throughout the ship? Chicken soup nozzles were clogged after all, which struck me as weird since why wouldn’t they be more generalized nozzles for any kind of food? If the food was premade, how did it last 3 million years, even if it had been dehydrated like in Back to the Future 2? Because if it’s replicated then really there’s theoretically infinite fruit, but probably with the problem of finite generalized “food matter” reserves to assemble the food from, so a triplicator would still help.

    As a side note, I’ve been using the lockdown as an opportunity to watch the original Star Trek, which I had never seen properly before, and in the episode Tomorrow is Yesterday, the teleporter operator impresses their onboard guest who’s from the 1960’s by using the food machine to instantly summon chicken soup when the guest requests it. I wonder if this very episode inspired that aspect of Red Dwarf, because of all the foods, they both used chicken soup (a food I’ve never actually seen in vending machines in modern times).

    #259475
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    I’m making this up, fair warning, but we see in Series 1 that they have standard vending machines with clogged chicken soup nozzles. Then, we see that in the drive room we they have a vending machine which can spit out entire meals, and dictate the fish of the day. Then, in Series III, we see Lister throwing a bunch of ingredients into a microwave and instantly producing a full, cooked meal. So perhaps the officers have access to better food vending/replication systems than the lower ranks. Or maybe I’m talking shite.

    I had soup out of a swimming pool vending machine a few years ago. It was as terrible as one would imagine.

    #259477
    Dave
    Member

    a swimming pool vending machine

    That must have been fucking massive.

    #259478
    Dave
    Member

    If the food was premade, how did it last 3 million years

    Stasis.

    #259479
    Ben Saunders
    Member

    That must have been fucking massive.

    [ROUND OF APPLAUSE]

    #259500
    GlenTokyo
    Member

    Yeah they probably have canteen tier vending machines in the corridors, they’ll give you chicken soup, pies etc, and maybe tools and equipment, one spat out a bucket.

    And then in the drive room and officer areas they have proper meals and flavour synthesis systems or something if not some form of replicator.

    #259501
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Well, given that only Lister and the Cat require food, perhaps they felt they were overstocked with food.

    #259544
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Here’s one that I have a personal answer to but it’s not spelled out per se in the episode proper: In White Hole when 12,000 IQ Holly gives them the pool-with-planets plan that Lister chucks in the bin in favor of his own pool shot, was that the intention all along? In other words, did 12,000 IQ Holly in all her geniusness give them intentionally flawed plans knowing that Lister would reject them for his ultimately successful shot? Or was Holly’s plan real and Lister rejected it anyway and just got lucky? Or were both plans valid? (I tend to think it was all Holly’s plan, much like how the Oracle in the Matrix bullshits Neo by telling him he isn’t the One so as to mentally get him where he needs to be.)

    In addition, how fucked would they have been in their no-power situation had they not happened to drift near a White Hole? And what’s to stop them from trying the IQ compression again if they (mostly) don’t remember the timeline? Or was one of 12,000 IQ Holly’s last actions before powering off to direct Red Dwarf in some way in the direction of a White Hole (through Holly Hop or otherwise) so as to act as a reset button for the crisis? Not sure if that reasoning works considering the implication is that they were operating in the White Hole’s time influence even before that start of the episode, though 12,000 IQ Holly could have done some timey-wimey stuff to affect the ship in the past to ensure that it found its way to a White Hole. But that’s a stretch.

    Also, and most importantly, if a White Hole is the opposite of a Black Hole, what with its spewing of matter and energy and time back into the universe, wouldn’t there be an opposite event horizon that’s impossible to enter because it just pushes everything out including light and time, etc. such that nothing in the universe could push past that point? And if so, how do you fill a White Hole with a planet, if theoretically it would just bounce off the event horizon?

    Also, what IS a White Hole?

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