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  • #259740
    Dave
    Participant

    In Stoke Me a Clipper, is the dimension with the planet with the ring of Ace Rimmer coffins implied to be Ace’s home dimension from Dimension Jump since theoretically he’s the “first Ace?”

    Given that in Dimension Jump he’s told he won’t ever be able to return to his own dimension, presumably it’s anywhere but.

    #259743
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Like all the other amazing coincidences that seem to come Ace Rimmer’s way, I just presumed that even if Ace wasn’t mortally wounded, he would still somehow die in the presence of his counterpart who would be suitably galvanised into taking up the mantle by Ace’s heroic sacrifice.

    #259746
    Hamish
    Participant

    (ex: being instantly vaporized by a neutron tank in Dimension 165, which makes zero sense if there are infinite dimensions, like why even bother numbering them?)

    Numbered from the amount of hops from the dimension the Wildfire originated from. Keeps growing infinitely. Simple.

    #259747
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    (Can’t get blockquote to work, so imagine blockquote:) “Given that in Dimension Jump he’s told he won’t ever be able to return to his own dimension, presumably it’s anywhere but.“

    Very true. Although Bongo may have just been referring to how the Wildfire’s Rimmer-based navigation system works, since obviously Ace can’t seem to jump to a dimension with no Rimmer (i.e. the home dimension he left behind). He may not have taken a wormhole into account, since that’s how they reach the coffin planet.

    Another question: How is it that Rimmer is randomly affected by everything that affects the other Dwarfers? Even Kryten explicitly has organic components, but how is Rimmer just as susceptible to despair ink or a Polymorph attack?

    Yet another question: What did they ever do with D.N.A. ship after that episode? Holly or Kryten would clearly crack it eventually. Even considering Series IV-era Lister’s moral sanctimoniousness, surely they didn’t just release it into space because no one can be trusted to use it? The applications are too plentiful. With just a hint of DNA, they could have made up to five strawberries a week!

    Even Another Question: How can a machine, an adapted teleporter, create copies of an object or person with the “best” and “worst” aspects, when that’s a value judgment and not really a scientific thing? It’s not like when Kirk got split in classic Trek where there was a nice and jerk version but there were pros and cons to each implying it was a relatively even/arbitrary split. Also, how are maggots a “worst” trait since they’re not even part of the strawberry, they’re a different life form, and maggots aren’t inherently bad, it’s all in your point of view, since a maggot is just going about it’s day. Unless there were maggots in the original strawberry and super-tasty ones in the divine strawberry that we didn’t see. But otherwise, that joke just seemed rude to maggots. They’re just livin’ their life, man.

    Now that I think of it, while I can appreciate that the High Dwarfers were all similar and the Low Dwarfers were all distinct, sort of symbolizing oneness versus individualism… considering that Kryten and Lister had a whole discussion on why and how the High Dwarfers were smarter than they were, how is being so gullible and naive to let themselves be killed by the Lows indicative of them being the “best” versions? Being zen-like when killed is one thing, but their statements showed they were incapable of even acknowledging the malice of the Lows. Besides being kind of funny, what was the point of that? Is the implication that naivety is a virtue?

    #259749
    tombow
    Participant

    maybe it’s trying to make a point that we need our dark side somewhat to protect ourselves. Like the aforementioned Star Trek episode where Kirk needed his out-of-control, aggressive side to function.

    #259750
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    The Polymorph attacking Rimmer is something that always bothered me, given that he’s soft-light at that point. I figure his light bee has to be exactly at that position on his forehead at the time, so the Polymorph is making contact with the light bee, mere millimetres into Rimmer’s soft-light form, so it just looks like he’s licking his forehead. As for how he can be affected by such biological mechanisms, idk dude.

    Demons & Angels is just cartoon logic, like Backwards. “Evil transporter clone” is a very 60s idea, too. Emohawk operates on similar logic, where it can remove… “emotions” (?) such as “coolness” from a person. That doesn’t make sense either.

    #259755

    The Emohawk also manages to change the physical appearance of a person, handily into an alternate version of themselves they’ve previously encountered.

    My question about the whole multiple Ace thing is: why? Why does a test pilot suddenly become a superhero who has to pass on his title as superhero to another version of himself? It’s all stated as if it’s something that has to happen, but it’s SUCH an utterly daft concept. If it happened to me I’d find it hilarious.

    #259757
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Ace (and Rimmer, really) really comes off as the pretentious type, so it’s possible he’s just inventing the whole mythos to big himself up, really. That there is no real concept of “destiny”, he just likes to act like there is, and try and make it all happen that way. He’s just been extremely successful/lucky to not have broken the chain thus far.

    #259758
    tombow
    Participant

    I always thought the stuff Timothy Spall says in Back to Reality may have had a grain of truth to it, and been pulled from their subconscious. I mean, we know Lister really will find Kochanski, and Talkie Toaster says in the novels that Lister will do the universe-creating thing he mentions, so why not Rimmer have that secret stuff in the swimming certificate.

    #259760
    Dave
    Participant

    The Polymorph attacking Rimmer is something that always bothered me, given that he’s soft-light at that point. I figure his light bee has to be exactly at that position on his forehead at the time, so the Polymorph is making contact with the light bee, mere millimetres into Rimmer’s soft-light form, so it just looks like he’s licking his forehead.

    Or the Polymorph is able to turn itself into a hologram. Which isn’t much of a stretch.

    #259762
    clem
    Participant

    The Polymorph turns into a beam of light at one point in Better Than Life, so yeah you’d imagine it could take the form of a hologram, but iirc it removes Rimmer’s anger straight from his personality disk somehow.

    #259765
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Everyone’s avoiding the most obvious answer to why Ace Rimmer is a role that must be infinitely passed on to other versions of Rimmer, and why Ace is not just a charismatically charming adventurer with heroic leanings but a Superman-level hero so major that the entire multiverse actively depends on his continued service, and why every version of Rimmer inexplicably fits into this role despite Dimension Jump’s central point being that even a slight change to someone’s path in life can and will massively change how they end up as a person:

    Stoke Me A Clipper is shit.

    #259766
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    It’s a top 5 Red Dwarf episode of all time so if it’s shit then this show must be gutter trash

    #259767
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Here’s one for you: why does Cat know who Stan and Ollie are, well enough to be able to compare Rimmer and Kryten to them, and which is Stan and which is Ollie?

    #259768
    si
    Participant

    Ollie’s got a moustache.

    #259770
    Dave
    Participant

    Lister’s a bit of a film buff, I bet he showed Cat plenty of Laurel and Hardy in the Series I cinema.

    #259772
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Fair point, now you mention the Series I cinema I can absolutely see it

    #259778
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Just how did the GELF bride’s ship infiltrate non-space?

    And what WAS the reason why whatever passes for Kryten’s subconscious converted the struggle into a Western?

    Also, the talking toilet from Balance of Power… was that their go-to toilet during their whole stay in that original quarters? Like when they talked about “aliens” using the bog roll, it was really the bog roll associated with that toilet, right there in the quarters? There wasn’t a bathroom they used just down the corridor? And since holograms can have sex and have heart attacks, do they also have to use the little boys’ room? (Is there holo-pee?)

    Why does Rimmer go crazy for food in Bodyswap when he has access to holo-food like the chutney sandwich (which must taste enough like the real thing that he can describe the taste in detail and Lister gets it)? He couldn’t have just pigged out on holo-mashed potatoes?

    #259779
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    It’s a top 5 Red Dwarf episode of all time so if it’s shit then this show must be gutter trash

    A Top 5 episode of Series VII, maybe.

    To be fair, I was exaggerating… a little. Stoke has some good bits, but the absurd spike in importance of Arnold Rimmer to the universe and the extremely rushed character development of Rimmer embracing his apparent destiny as a professional hero is a misunderstanding of his character so extreme that if I didn’t know better I’d assume that Stoke Me A Clipper was written without the involvement or even the consent of Doug Naylor. It even does Lister dirty too, with his faking of Rimmer’s (second) death being as immoral and cruel as it is pointless. The episode tries to paper over its own cracks with good performances and fanservicey/heartfelt moments, but it just doesn’t work for me.

    I do get why the redeeming qualities make it an episode people are broadly fond of for sure, though (e.g. the opening Ace action sequence IS awesome).

    #259780
    Dave
    Participant

    It even does Lister dirty too, with his faking of Rimmer’s (second) death being as immoral and cruel as it is pointless.

    Can you expand on this? I’ve always seen it as part of Lister giving Rimmer the push he needs to become a better version of himself, and so the opposite of immoral and cruel.

    #259781
    Dave
    Participant

    Of course, the real question posed by that episode is: why would Bazookoids ever need blanks?

    #259782
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Why do regular old guns have blanks? I would assume for movies and stuff, but then haven’t people died from blanks on movies sets so they don’t use them anymore? Maybe the boys want to put on an amateur production of The Important of Blasting Earnest.

    I don’t buy Lister faking Rimmer’s death as immoral. Kryten and Cat don’t even like Rimmer anyway. Lister is the last human being alive so faking a promotion is meaningless to anyone except Rimmer. And like Dave said, it gives Rimmer the push he needs to become a better version of himself.

    #259783
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Can you expand on this? I’ve always seen it as part of Lister giving Rimmer the push he needs to become a better version of himself, and so the opposite of immoral and cruel.

    Sure. The reason is that he’s being emotionally manipulative of Rimmer (not necessarily cruel, but not good either) and he’s being cruel towards Cat and Kryten. Now, obviously Cat and Kryten never really liked Rimmer per se, but it’s just been the 4 of them for the past 4/6 years alone in deep space, and Lister just unilaterally decided it was OK to lie to them and put them through the trauma and grief that comes with personal loss, while also denying them the chance to say an actual, honest, regular two-way goodbye to Rimmer as he goes off to become Ace… and for what? Because he knows that Rimmer is a socially awkward but confident-acting character in a sitcom and will therefore choose to embrace a life of danger just to avoid fessing up to a lie? It’s fucked up. If Rimmer is destined to inherit the mantle of Ace and has it within him to live up to it, then he shouldn’t need to be manipulated into doing it like that, and if it turns out he isn’t and doesn’t then it’s especially bad to manipulate him into doing it like that.

    And to be clear, I don’t think Lister was wrong for encouraging Rimmer to choose a heroic life and speaking earnestly with him about it, and the gambit where he pretends to be the VR knight is fine, but the Ace/Rimmer death identity switcheroo is seriously crossing the line.

    It is arguable that Kryten and Cat know what’s up and are just playing along with the sham second funeral and such to help Lister push Rimmer into becoming Ace, but them collectively lying to Rimmer to manipulate him is just fucked up in a different way, it’s not that much better.

    #259784
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    That’s………………………………………………. certainly a take on it. You have had some thoughts. And posted them. That much is true.

    #259785
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    I appreciate the diplomatic response, Ben. XD

    I may not have realised how controversial a take “telling people that one of their only companions is dead when they actually aren’t is bad” was.

    Thinking about it, Kryten did the same thing in Backstory to Earth, didn’t he? Do people feel that Kryten was in the wrong there just because Kochanski was liked (or because she wasn’t a hologram), or do they think his lie was morally justifiable too?

    In any case it was a missed opportunity to not have Kryten snap back to Lister when the lie was revealed: “oh, pretty rich for you, sir, of all people to be angry at me for pretending that a crewmember is dead when they just chose to leave, Mr. ‘ooh, it’s the knight from the AR machine, he’s killed Rimmer’… prick.”

    #259786

    I don’t actually believe Rimmer is stupid enough to think a knight could escape from the AR suite.

    #259787
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Just a couple months at most previously, some rogue androids infected his robotic best friend with a computer virus which made him hallucinate a western town, which he and all his other friends physically went into in order to try and defeat the virus manually, rather than like, running an antivirus, or something. Shortly after that, all of his friends died at the hands of versions of themselves from the future, and he brought them back to life by commuting suicide and causing a temporal paradox. The next day, he and his mates travelled back in time, accidentally saving JFK from death, then convinced him to kill himself again. A knight escaping from the AR machine isn’t that far-fetched, given the circumstances, don’t you think? This isn’t the X-Files, Rimmer doesn’t greet every wacky new thing that happens to the crew with all that much skepticism by this point.

    #259788
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I think Kryten’s lie is pretty fucked up, given that we see how devastated Lister is by it. It seems a bit immature for Kris to just up and leave without telling anybody, though I think she has the right to leave if she wants to. Kryten lying about it could be seen as him trying to protect Lister’s feelings, but having her think she DIED is a pretty shitty way to do that.

    #259789
    Dave
    Participant

    Flap Jack, it’s an interesting reading but I don’t see it that way. There’s no real indication that ‘losing’ Rimmer has hurt Cat and Kryten in any way. If there was, that would be different, and it’s what distinguishes the Kryten/Kochanski lie – the fact that it causes so much pain to Lister.

    It is arguable that Kryten and Cat know what’s up and are just playing along with the sham second funeral and such to help Lister push Rimmer into becoming Ace, but them collectively lying to Rimmer to manipulate him is just fucked up in a different way, it’s not that much better.

    Nah, I don’t think there’s any indication that they’re in on it too.

    Of course, the big question is why they don’t just boot up a new hologram once Rimmer is gone.

    Come to think of it, what computer is generating Rimmer once he becomes Ace Rimmer? Presumably the Wildfire has that capability, I guess.

    #259790
    Dave
    Participant

    If Rimmer is destined to inherit the mantle of Ace and has it within him to live up to it, then he shouldn’t need to be manipulated into doing it like that, and if it turns out he isn’t and doesn’t then it’s especially bad to manipulate him into doing it like that.

    Maybe Rimmer is always destined to need input from Lister to become Ace, in any reality? The original Ace certainly seems to be close friends with Spanners.

    #259791
    Dave
    Participant

    Maybe they should retcon it so that Kochanski really did die and Kryten was initially telling the truth, but chose to later lie that he had lied about it, to cheer up Lister and give him something to live for.

    #259792
    Loathsome American
    Participant

    Why does Rimmer go crazy for food in Bodyswap when he has access to holo-food like the chutney sandwich (which must taste enough like the real thing that he can describe the taste in detail and Lister gets it)? He couldn’t have just pigged out on holo-mashed potatoes?

    I assume as with most things related to Rimmer, it’s psychological and he can’t allow himself to enjoy anything. He could have Holly make holo-mashed potatoes that might be as objectively good as actual mashed potatoes, but he’s probably telling himself, “It’s not really mashed potatoes, it’s just a simulation of mashed potatoes and I’m not really eating them, my senses are just being told I am eating them.”

    #259793
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Flap Jack, it’s an interesting reading but I don’t see it that way. There’s no real indication that ‘losing’ Rimmer has hurt Cat and Kryten in any way. If there was, that would be different, and it’s what distinguishes the Kryten/Kochanski lie – the fact that it causes so much pain to Lister.

    I think Kryten and Cat ultimately being chill about it makes Lister keeping the lie going not as bad as Kryten keeping up his lie about Kochanski, but it doesn’t excuse lying in the first place, because he has no reason to expect that Rimmer dying wouldn’t hurt them.

    After all, if he, Lister, is experiencing empathy towards Rimmer in the episode and sadness at the prospect of him leaving, then he should expect that Kryten and Cat might feel something too if he not only left but died, right? Lister would be pretty pissed off if the shoe was on the other foot and he found out, even if it was about Rimmer instead of Kochanski.

    This also touches on a particular thing that’s off-putting about the writing of the scenario: it feels like the only reason Cat and Kryten ultimately aren’t that affected by Rimmer’s supposed death is because Lister and the audience know that he’s fine. And for the rest of the series they treat his memory as if they all know that he’s just gone, not dead.

    Like, if Doug actually did an episode where Rimmer for real double-died, you know that Kryten and Cat would be a bit more profoundly affected by it (compare the moment where Rimmer was thought dead at the end of The Promised Land for a taste), which makes their reactions in Stoke ring so false. That’s actually why I thought them being aware of the lie was a possibility.

    #259794
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    If Kryten and Cat took it badly he could just tell them the truth either then, or later. His lying being immoral hinges on their reaction to it and how he deals with that reaction, the act of lying is not in itself immoral. And since they don’t react badly to it, no harm is done, really. Besides, Cat was NEVER going to be upset that Rimmer had died, and had in fact been happy with the “news” of his potential death or disappearance on several occasions. With Kryten, Lister lying to him is the entire plot of the previous episode in the series, innit. But at any rate, he could just tell him the truth if he had a bad reaction to it; Kryten would be willing to go along with the sham I should think, if Lister explained himself.

    The Promised Land is at least twenty years after Stoke Me A Clipper, so I don’t buy “they were sad recently so they should have been sad twenty years ago”, really.

    There’s also no reason that Letter couldn’t just come clean at some point after the funeral. You can imagine Cat being like “you mean goalpost head ain’t dead? Way to put a crimp on my good mood!” and Kryten giving it the OHHHHH SIR! and it all being dealt with rather quickly.

    #259795
    Ben Saunders
    Participant
    #259796
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    The Polymorph attacking Rimmer is something that always bothered me, given that he’s soft-light at that point. I figure his light bee has to be exactly at that position on his forehead at the time, so the Polymorph is making contact with the light bee, mere millimetres into Rimmer’s soft-light form, so it just looks like he’s licking his forehead. As for how he can be affected by such biological mechanisms, idk dude.

    The Polymorph turned itself into a hologram.

    #259797
    Dax101
    Participant

    The knight escaping from the VR machine makes no sense. its a joke that’s forgets its not a holodeck from star trek.

    #259798
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I just covered that one – with the amount of shit that has happened in Red Dwarf up until and since that point, it’s not that far fetched, really. Some sort of virus could do it, easily. Giving hallucinations physical form in Confidence and Paranoia has always been a weird one for me, but it’s a good episode so nobody questions it.

    Polymorph turning into a hologram, I don’t like that. How can it make itself immaterial? If you say it happened in the books then it happened in the books, but i don’t like it for the show, lol. I’ll keep believing in my lightbee cope

    #259799
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    If Kryten and Cat took it badly he could just tell them the truth either then, or later. His lying being immoral hinges on their reaction to it and how he deals with that reaction

    I mean… if they take it badly then it’s too late, isn’t it? Obviously coming clean at that point is not as harmful as continuing the lie, but coming clean doesn’t magically undo the harm he already unnecessarily caused.

    Also this logic ignores the fact that lies are still immoral even if the lie is comforting and the truth is upsetting, at least as a general rule.

    the act of lying is not in itself immoral.

    Ummmmmmmmmmm????

    OK, I know that the Ganymede & Titan forums is not the best place to get into a philosophical debate, but I’m pretty sure people generally agree that lying is in itself immoral, because lying to someone – even for a non-selfish reason – is unavoidably an act of disrespect or condescension. That’s why when characters in stories tell a “noble lie” (hmm, wonder if any Red Dwarf episodes discussed this topic) there has to be a major quantifiable benefit to the lie to out-balance the inherent immorality of deception, not just an absence of direct, immediate harm.

    Of course, that weighing up of benefits to a lie is in play in Stoke Me A Clipper, I just find the calculation completely at odds with what Lister decides.

    Because (A) Lister doesn’t know that Rimmer has to be manipulated like this to make him become Ace; the previous Ace only just passed, give him a chance, jeez, (B) there’s no real stakes to Rimmer not becoming Ace, because the problems Ace solves are hypothetical “someone out there will always need a hero… somewhere” problems; there’s no guarantee that Rimmer saved or even encountered a single person after he left, and (C) even if there being an Ace is absolutely crucial for the multiverse and it’s impossible to convince Rimmer to go without this ridiculous faked death farce… why does it have to be Rimmer? There were millions of Ace Rimmers beforehand, but so what? Just become Ace Lister if this is really such a priority for you, Dave, nothing’s stopping you. Or you could push your crewmate who is worse at flying, worse at fighting, more cowardly, less charismatic and generally worse at heroism than you into the firing line after receiving little to no training, sure. What a true friend of Rimmer’s you’ve grown to be.

    #259800
    Dave
    Participant

    The knight escaping from the VR machine makes no sense. its a joke that’s forgets its not a holodeck from star trek.

    Maybe it was a figment of Mr Lister’s imagination made solid by some weird space ray.

    #259801
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    You refuted your own point about lying being immoral within seconds of making it, with reference to the show we’re currently discussing. So I don’t need to say anything, here, really.

    Also by your following logic, Doctor Who should just retire because all problems are hypothetical really

    #259802
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    The knight escaping from the VR machine makes no sense. its a joke that’s forgets its not a holodeck from star trek.

    It was Lister dressed up, wasn’t it? To convince Rimmer he could become Ace. He was supposed to think it was an escaped knight from VR (which indeed wouldn’t have made sense, but as has been said before, stranger things have already happened so why should he not believe this?) but in reality it was Lister, who had also put the blanks in the bazookoids.

    Unless I’m misremembering. Edit: someone also commented upthread that it was Lister, so I’m not going mad after all ;)

    #259803
    Dave
    Participant

    That’s correct. The issue is over Rimmer (and the others) believing without question that a knight could escape from the AR machine, threaten Ace, and eventually kill Rimmer.

    #259807
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    The problem is NOT that stranger things have happened to the crew. The problem is that the logic of the stranger things that have happened to the crew have been rationalised to both them and us with an explanation, normally via Kryten or Holly.

    With the “escaped Knight” thing, Doug seemed to think that he didn’t need to explain the logic of this idea because it wasn’t “true” within the reality of the show. Because the audience knew it was Lister, that was seemingly enough to avoid explaining the logic of a character escaping from a video game in a way that Kryten (at the very least) wouldn’t question it.

    It’s incredibly half-arsed, especially since about 5 minutes is spent setting up the knight stuff earlier in the episode.

    #259808

    Yeah, it was one of the very few issues with VII I had even as a kid. I just don’t buy that Rimmer would believe it was real.

    Come to think of it, what computer is generating Rimmer once he becomes Ace Rimmer? Presumably the Wildfire has that capability, I guess.

    If a ship the size of Red Dwarf can only sustain one hologram – two at most by turning off a huge amount of unused systems – how does even Starbug generate him? And what’s generating the Holoship?

    It’s just another thing that became forgotten once the whole light bee idea came along. If the light bee is projecting him and can be recharged on Starbug, why would it need a massive ship to power it earlier one?

    #259809
    Dave
    Participant

    Alternate universe.

    #259810
    Dax101
    Participant

    That’s correct. The issue is over Rimmer (and the others) believing without question that a knight could escape from the AR machine, threaten Ace, and eventually kill Rimmer.

    Not only did Rimmer believe it. But Lister mentions it to Kryten and Cat and not single question Is asked. its just kinda like oh a knight escaped from the AR machine? well it happens i guess.

    #259811
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    It’s not a ship the size of Red Dwarf, it’s just Red Dwarf. Starbug is… uh. You know.

    #259812
    Hamish
    Participant

    It’s just another thing that became forgotten once the whole light bee idea came along. If the light bee is projecting him and can be recharged on Starbug, why would it need a massive ship to power it earlier one?

    I have always been of the opinion that the light bee as we know it was not native to Red Dwarf and was something that Kryten salvaged from a derelict sometime around Series IV.

    #259813
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    The light bee not being a thing until they met Kryten makes a great deal of sense. I’m officially incorporating that into my headcanon.

    Now I have to mentally go back and see if any holograms from the “past” had light bees, which still wouldn’t be a contradiction if it was just something the Dwarfers themselves didn’t have access to at the start.

    #259814
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    You refuted your own point about lying being immoral within seconds of making it, with reference to the show we’re currently discussing. So I don’t need to say anything, here, really.

    … I did? No idea how. I’m pretty sure I couldn’t reference Red Dwarf making the case that lying is inherently morally neutral, because it’s never done that.

    Also by your following logic, Doctor Who should just retire because all problems are hypothetical really

    Ben you’re just joshing me now, because I know you’re aware that the premise of Doctor Who is that Ms Who travels around time and space for the primary purpose of fun, but helps stop alien invasions and such if she encounters them. She isn’t a Green Lantern. She wouldn’t be settled down in Devon if not for her sworn duty as an intergalactic agent of justice.

    But that’s beside the point, which is that being a guy who just roams around space hoping to randomly find people who need saving is all well and good, but if Red Dwarf wants to convince me that “guy who just roams around space hoping to randomly find people who need saving” is a vital position that absolutely needs filling urgently, then there really needs to be something actually tangible at risk. We were losing a principal character to the Ace Rimmer cause; I don’t think it’s too much to ask for Ace to have one or more specific missions to complete.

    #259815
    Dax101
    Participant

    The light bee not being a thing until they met Kryten makes a great deal of sense. I’m officially incorporating that into my headcanon.

    Now I have to mentally go back and see if any holograms from the “past” had light bees, which still wouldn’t be a contradiction if it was just something the Dwarfers themselves didn’t have access to at the start.

    Aslong as you don’t remember Trojan where Howard is a hard light hologram and has a light bee.

    #259816
    Hamish
    Participant

    Aslong as you don’t remember Trojan where Howard is a hard light hologram and has a light bee.

    Not really a problem since he was posted to a Quantum Twister class vessel as part of the Space Corps Super Infinity Fleet.

    “Those Space Corps boys had everything. The buttons, the blasters, the snug elasticated jumpsuits. They had it all!”

    #259817
    Dave
    Participant

    Lanstrom doesn’t seem to have a light bee when she disappears, interestingly.

    #259818
    Dave
    Participant

    Talking of holograms, does the ship have one in Series VIII? Or do they just not bother?

    #259819
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    “McIntyre! The Nanobots must have resurrected you too! Isn’t this cure for death super convenient?”

    #259820
    Dave
    Participant

    “Saunders! Good to see you again! How’s your rubber plant?”

    #259821
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    “the premise of Doctor Who is that Ms Who travels around time and space for the primary purpose of fun”

    To be fair that might be the premise of Series 11 and 12 but we all know how I feel about that shit. Please refer to the Doctor’s “because it’s kind” speech at the end of Series 10 for what I think the show is really about. The Doctor started off as a mischievous old man who ran away from home because he was bored, but slowly turned into something closer to a hero archetype, although he’s not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. “I’m the Doctor and I save people.”

    That’s a good point RE: VIII not having any holograms. They wouldn’t, because everybody was resurrected.

    #259822
    Dave
    Participant

    They could have made a hologram double of one of the living crew, just to help out like.

    Two Hollisters, one alive and one a hologram! Imagine the fun! (They could call it Me4 because one Hollister is big enough to count as two etc.)

    #259823
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    To be fair that might be the premise of Series 11 and 12 but we all know how I feel about that shit. Please refer to the Doctor’s “because it’s kind” speech at the end of Series 10 for what I think the show is really about. The Doctor started off as a mischievous old man who ran away from home because he was bored, but slowly turned into something closer to a hero archetype, although he’s not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. “I’m the Doctor and I save people.”

    The Doctor always saves people whenever she can, yes, but none of the Doctors saw themselves as a hero by profession. Just think of how many times he referred to himself as “a traveller” or “just passing through” etc. The character development you’re talking about is him choosing to prioritise saving people whenever the situation arises, not him making the search for heroic opportunities his life’s only goal. As has been said, The Doctor doesn’t need to look for trouble, it finds her.

    There were occasions where The Doctor would boast about taking personal responsibility for the security of Earth, like in The Christmas Invasion or The Eleventh Hour, but this never reflected in his actual MO. The closest the show ever got to being like that was in the Pertwee era when he stayed on Earth and worked for UNIT, but that’s because he was pretty much forced to.

    Anyway, maybe the Ace Rimmer/Doctor comparison is apt regardless. Despite the massive differences in motivation, like Ace in Stoke, The Doctor has no specific jurisdiction and no actual pending quests that need seeing to, so it would be equally dumb if she sought to pass on the mantle of “The Doctor” before she died, and it be so crucial that her successor leave in the TARDIS in under a week that the successor needs to participate in faked death hijinks.

    #259827
    bloodteller
    Participant

    Talking of holograms, does the ship have one in Series VIII? Or do they just not bother?

    not sure if this is relevant or not, but this reminded me that VIII is the only series of the entire show where nobody even uses the word “hologram”

    #259828
    bloodteller
    Participant

    That’s correct. The issue is over Rimmer (and the others) believing without question that a knight could escape from the AR machine, threaten Ace, and eventually kill Rimmer.

    is it really so out of the question that a video game character could escape from an AR machine into the real world though? earlier in the episodes all the game characters are seemingly advanced enough AI that they’re basically real people, who’s to say one couldnt escape and start causing trouble?

    also weirder things definitely have happened to the crew. the triplicator in demons and angels and the mirror universe portal in only the good are both basically cartoon magic. i’d say the knight escaping is more plausible than either of those really

    #259830
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Confidence and Paranoia, Polymorph (particularly Emohawk), Bodyswap, Timeslides, Triplicator, Gunmen, shapeshifting/telepathy in general, Red Dwarf is full of extremely weird shit, and shit where concepts, ideas, thought etc are given physical form. A knight escaping from the AR machine really isn’t that weird.

    #259831
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    terrorform is fucked up too
    luck being a virus is stupid as well that doesn’t make sense
    how can a “virus” control the laws of the very universe itself?
    sexual magnetism makes more sense
    since it’s just pheremones and stuff

    What IS “luck”? Just probability? How does a virus control probability? What the fuck?

    stuff like “luck” and “coincidence” really makes the universe feel like… there’s some mystical aura swirling around that controls these things
    what is “luck”? what is “coincidence?” mathematically? how do we quantify these?

    #259832
    Dax101
    Participant

    is it really so out of the question that a video game character could escape from an AR machine into the real world though? earlier in the episodes all the game characters are seemingly advanced enough AI that they’re basically real people, who’s to say one couldnt escape and start causing trouble?
    also weirder things definitely have happened to the crew. the triplicator in demons and angels and the mirror universe portal in only the good are both basically cartoon magic. i’d say the knight escaping is more plausible than either of those really

    When you remember its just headset based. basically like the VR games they are doing today but far more advanced. it does kinda make you wonder how exactly these things are being physically formed outside of it. its not exactly a holodeck after all. so the moment it happens someone should be like what the hell? but Lister just mentions it so casual like its not the first time its happened.

    Confidence and Paranoia, Polymorph (particularly Emohawk), Bodyswap, Timeslides, Triplicator, Gunmen, shapeshifting/telepathy in general, Red Dwarf is full of extremely weird shit, and shit where concepts, ideas, thought etc are given physical form. A knight escaping from the AR machine really isn’t that weird.

    And they are treated with the characters being confused by it.not every concept needs to make sense in real-world science. science fiction can do what it wants. although usually, it works best if you set in-universe rules for the made up science.

    #259833
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    If not every concept needs to make sense and science fiction can do what it wants, then why can’t a knight escape from the AR machine? It’s such a bizarre thing to stop at and go no, THIS is the line. Everything else? Fine. But THIS? Bloody hell.

    #259834
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Also, it’s a bit bizarre that people are annoyed at the idea that a knight could escape from the AR machine, when it didn’t. Lister just said it did. And they believed him. But why would Lister lie about something like that? I think the other characters would trust/believe that Lister wouldn’t just invent that.

    #259835
    bloodteller
    Participant

    i think a knight could probably escape an AR machine anyway…but even then, a knight didn’t escape from the AR machine, lister just said one did and people believed him. it didnt happen, fiction within fiction

    #259836
    bloodteller
    Participant

    it would be quite funny if they did a series 13 of red dwarf and there’s an episode where all kinds of shit escapes an AR machine and then suddenly nobody can make snarky jokes about things escaping an AR machine that didnt actually escape an AR machine in one episode 20 years ago

    #259837
    Dave
    Participant

    I wonder what they thought happened to the knight (that escaped from the AR machine). If they believed Lister about the knight (escaping from the AR machine) then you’d think they would be a bit more concerned that there’s a knight (escaped from the AR machine) on the loose.

    #259838
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    The AR Machine lie never bothered me because the only two people who might actually believe it were Rimmer and Cat. This may be giving the episode way too much credit but it never crossed my mind that Kryten was fooled by that lie, maybe because when he detected “Ace” sounding more weasely, he put what was happening together not long after that.

    Rimmer was fooled enough to take it seriously, I mean he believes in aliens and has encountered many strange things so why not. All Lister had to do was generate an immediate threat. But mainly, the Cat bought it, at least long enough to allow Rimmer to have a dignified farewell not undercut by the Cat’s insults and quips (i.e. the Cat being a dick to Rimmer in Promised Land, which is the last thing Rimmer needed if was gonna become Ace).

    Whoever didn’t realize Rimmer became Ace by the end of Stoke must’ve either been told or figured it out immediately. In Blue, Lister seeks Kryten’s medical help after his dream of kissing Ace, so it might not be a stretch to assume he explained his whole dream.

    #259839
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Lister tells everybody something has escaped from the AR machine. Cat says “yeah right bud, we ain’t fallin’ for that one again.” Kryten writes a 500-word essay on why that doesn’t make any sense and breaks the established rules of the universe they’re in and how Lister lying in such a manner is immoral.

    #259840
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I wonder what they thought happened to the knight (that escaped from the AR machine). If they believed Lister about the knight (escaping from the AR machine) then you’d think they would be a bit more concerned that there’s a knight (escaped from the AR machine) on the loose.

    I love you, Dave. I love you so much.

    #259841
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    A knight escaping from the AR machine isn’t even less believable than the existence of the cat race.

    The part of Lister’s lie that is so incredible isn’t the knight escaping from AR (maybe it totally is possible and Kryten knows this, but it just didn’t happen on this occasion), but the knight being able to kill Rimmer. Unless this simulation of a medieval knight was carrying around an EMP grenade, he isn’t going to harm a being of pure light by running at him with a lance or whatever.

    #259842

    Weird shit happening in the show is generally treated as weird shit happening and explained by Kryten or Holly.

    Weird shit happening that isn’t in any way explained but treated as “oh yeah that happened” doesn’t work for me.

    It’s the fact that nobody even questions the fact that a character that only exists in your head while you have a headset on managed to become sentient and leave the room it was previously projected in, and then managed to become solid and kill an existing character – one who’s hardlight and thus almost impossible to kill anyway. It doesn’t draw even a raised eyebrow from anyone. Even Cat, the least bright of our bunch, should at least be a little worried that this can happen.

    And yes, you can totally head-canon it away, but it doesn’t take away the nagging feeling that it’s actually just a bit of sloppy writing.

    #259843
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    The reason they immediately cut away after Lister says that an escaped AR knight killed Rimmer is because what followed was a full hour of confusion and arguing, where Kryten keeps coming up with reasons that it makes no sense but Lister just keeps digging his heels in, and Kryten will occasionally demand that “Ace” gives his opinion and he’ll just sort of uneasily and half-heartedly agree with Lister.

    #259845
    Dax101
    Participant

    Weird shit happening in the show is generally treated as weird shit happening and explained by Kryten or Holly.

    Weird shit happening that isn’t in any way explained but treated as “oh yeah that happened” doesn’t work for me.
    It’s the fact that nobody even questions the fact that a character that only exists in your head while you have a headset on managed to become sentient and leave the room it was previously projected in, and then managed to become solid and kill an existing character – one who’s hardlight and thus almost impossible to kill anyway. It doesn’t draw even a raised eyebrow from anyone. Even Cat, the least bright of our bunch, should at least be a little worried that this can happen.
    And yes, you can totally head-canon it away, but it doesn’t take away the nagging feeling that it’s actually just a bit of sloppy writing.

    Exactly!

    #259846
    Dave
    Participant

    Kryten figured it out.

    #259891
    ChrisM
    Participant

    In Psirens Rimmers light bee is on battery backup but by Rimmerworld it survives at least 600 years …

    While in Promised land it indicates that light bees can be charged with an AC like socket . If that’s the case why is it a worry when Lister is going through the list of Starbug issues due to them losing the Dwarf?
    They upgraded his light bee in Legion. They probably gave him a recharge off-screen too.

    Concerning Rimmerworld, they actually stated that the escape pod was equipped with solar batteries (or some such thing) so Rimmer’s lightbee could be charged indefinitely.

    #259981
    Rubber
    Participant

    terrorform is fucked up too

    luck being a virus is stupid as well that doesn’t make sense
    how can a “virus” control the laws of the very universe itself?
    sexual magnetism makes more sense
    since it’s just pheremones and stuff
    What IS “luck”? Just probability? How does a virus control probability? What the fuck?
    stuff like “luck” and “coincidence” really makes the universe feel like… there’s some mystical aura swirling around that controls these things
    what is “luck”? what is “coincidence?” mathematically? how do we quantify these?

    Maybe the luck virus activates the dormant psychic portions of the brain — like the holo-virus! — but in a less directly controlled, weaponised way, so you’re basically discreetly manipulating your surroundings without being consciously aware that you’re doing so or with only the vaguest hint of your desired outcome when you do something. It could definitely account for Lister typing in the correct code… maybe less so stumbling over useful objects in a corridor at just the right moment but HMMMMMMM I don’t hate this explanation overall.

    #259982
    Rubber
    Participant

    terrorform is fucked up too

    luck being a virus is stupid as well that doesn’t make sense
    how can a “virus” control the laws of the very universe itself?
    sexual magnetism makes more sense
    since it’s just pheremones and stuff
    What IS “luck”? Just probability? How does a virus control probability? What the fuck?
    stuff like “luck” and “coincidence” really makes the universe feel like… there’s some mystical aura swirling around that controls these things
    what is “luck”? what is “coincidence?” mathematically? how do we quantify these?
    Maybe the luck virus activates the dormant psychic portions of the brain — like the holo-virus! — but in a less directly controlled, weaponised way, so you’re basically discreetly manipulating your surroundings without being consciously aware that you’re doing so or with only the vaguest hint of your desired outcome when you do something. It could definitely account for Lister typing in the correct code… maybe less so stumbling over useful objects in a corridor at just the right moment but HMMMMMMM I don’t hate this explanation overall.

    ACTUALLY, you know what, the objects clearly existed on the ship or at least somewhere in the universe already and he subconsciously summoned them in a fraction of a second before he needed them, just like Harry Potter with the summoning spell, and they arrived with such speed one of them actually smashed him on the ankle so actually YES I have solved this and solved it well.

    #260169
    No
    Participant

    All of your unanswered questions can be solved right here in the brand new Red Dwarf forum https://unofficialreddwarfforum.com/

    #260179
    Rubber
    Participant

    All of your unanswered questions can be solved right here in the brand new Red Dwarf forum https://unofficialreddwarfforum.com/

    Thanks, Jimbob! How soon will the UK have access to a free and effective COVID-19 vaccine?

    #260185
    No
    Participant

    All of your unanswered questions can be solved right here in the brand new Red Dwarf forum https://unofficialreddwarfforum.com/

    Thanks, Jimbob! How soon will the UK have access to a free and effective COVID-19 vaccine?

    You won’t be getting one

    #260187
    No
    Participant

    However everyone who joins the BRAND NEW RED DWARF FORUM https://unofficialreddwarfforum.com/ will get one, especially Bluey.

    #260188
    tombow
    Participant

    so Lister had Frankenstein in a cupboard but she never made noise when Rimmer was there?

    #260222
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    so Lister had Frankenstein in a cupboard but she never made noise when Rimmer was there?

    He couldn’t hear her over the sound of his ‘Learn Esperanto While You Sleep’ tapes.

    #261095
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    In the “See you in ten minutes?” scene, why does Lister keep zapping Hollister with the time wand? Why does he even do it once?

    Even when first watching Pete Part 2 as a teenager who was completely uncritical about Red Dwarf, this completely baffled me.

    #261101
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    The Psirens create a nit. Okay, the premise is that they lay in wait and lure in unsuspecting space travelers with their telepathic tricks to feed on them.

    Except this is the Red Dwarf universe, where life begins and ends with Earth. How many space travelers are out there? The Psirens must go centuries between feedings!

    #261367
    Dave
    Participant

    “The way he only ever used three pieces of toilet paper: one up, one down and one to polish.”

    How does Lister know this? Did they really have to take a dump on that voice-activated toilet in front of each other in the bunkroom?

    And does Lister literally mean that Rimmer just polished any unwiped shit on his arse and walked around all day like that?

    Eurgh.

    #261368
    Spaceworm Jim
    Participant

    I’ve complained about that toilet paper line so many times to so many people because of how it opens up those questions. No one has seems to have really gotten just how fucked up it is, or maybe they didn’t know I was talking about Red Dwarf, so I’m glad to finally hear this occurred to someone else. Thanks, Dave.

    #261369

    Perhaps Rimmer’s diet is extremely high in fibre so he has very clean poos. All it takes is a couple of wipes and he is done.

    #261374
    Dave
    Participant

    In which case, what’s Lister’s problem?

    #261375

    Lister, eating and drinking nothing but beer and curry, has never experienced this phenomenon of healthy, regular, and clean bowel movements and so automatically assumes Rimmer’s are as dirty as his.

    Also “that time we used a whole bog roll in a day, you thought that was aliens as well” – clearly Rimmer isn’t used to the idea of anyone using a lot of toilet paper. In comes Lister with his beer and curry shits and an entire toilet roll gets used up and he can’t comprehend that anyone person would use a whole roll so assumes aliens.

    #261380

    I love Rimmer’s use of “we” in that, as if he used the bog roll. Given that Cat, at the time, seemed to enjoy toileting in ‘unconventional’ places, it basically means Lister used it up. And if he didn’t… who did?

    #261381
    si
    Participant

    And if he didn’t… who did?

    Aliens. Duh.

    #261392

    I love Rimmer’s use of “we” in that, as if he used the bog roll. Given that Cat, at the time, seemed to enjoy toileting in ‘unconventional’ places, it basically means Lister used it up. And if he didn’t… who did?

    I presumed it was pre-accident, so it would have been both Rimmer and Lister using it.

    #261401
    Dave
    Participant

    I presumed it was pre-accident

    More likely immediately after an accident.

    #261422

    Was Rimmer really expecting aliens within the solar system? I always imagined that was an obsession that developed post-accident.

    #261434

    Plenty of people think aliens do shit on Earth, it is not out of the realms of possibility.

    And later Dwarf ret-cons the trip as up and down the solar system as across the galaxy and back, so you could read that to think Rimmer expected to bump into aliens deeper in the Milky Way

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