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  • #259814
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    You refuted your own point about lying being immoral within seconds of making it, with reference to the show we’re currently discussing. So I don’t need to say anything, here, really.

    … I did? No idea how. I’m pretty sure I couldn’t reference Red Dwarf making the case that lying is inherently morally neutral, because it’s never done that.

    Also by your following logic, Doctor Who should just retire because all problems are hypothetical really

    Ben you’re just joshing me now, because I know you’re aware that the premise of Doctor Who is that Ms Who travels around time and space for the primary purpose of fun, but helps stop alien invasions and such if she encounters them. She isn’t a Green Lantern. She wouldn’t be settled down in Devon if not for her sworn duty as an intergalactic agent of justice.

    But that’s beside the point, which is that being a guy who just roams around space hoping to randomly find people who need saving is all well and good, but if Red Dwarf wants to convince me that “guy who just roams around space hoping to randomly find people who need saving” is a vital position that absolutely needs filling urgently, then there really needs to be something actually tangible at risk. We were losing a principal character to the Ace Rimmer cause; I don’t think it’s too much to ask for Ace to have one or more specific missions to complete.

    #259815
    Dax101
    Participant

    The light bee not being a thing until they met Kryten makes a great deal of sense. I’m officially incorporating that into my headcanon.

    Now I have to mentally go back and see if any holograms from the “past” had light bees, which still wouldn’t be a contradiction if it was just something the Dwarfers themselves didn’t have access to at the start.

    Aslong as you don’t remember Trojan where Howard is a hard light hologram and has a light bee.

    #259816
    Hamish
    Participant

    Aslong as you don’t remember Trojan where Howard is a hard light hologram and has a light bee.

    Not really a problem since he was posted to a Quantum Twister class vessel as part of the Space Corps Super Infinity Fleet.

    “Those Space Corps boys had everything. The buttons, the blasters, the snug elasticated jumpsuits. They had it all!”

    #259817
    Dave
    Participant

    Lanstrom doesn’t seem to have a light bee when she disappears, interestingly.

    #259818
    Dave
    Participant

    Talking of holograms, does the ship have one in Series VIII? Or do they just not bother?

    #259819
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    “McIntyre! The Nanobots must have resurrected you too! Isn’t this cure for death super convenient?”

    #259820
    Dave
    Participant

    “Saunders! Good to see you again! How’s your rubber plant?”

    #259821
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    “the premise of Doctor Who is that Ms Who travels around time and space for the primary purpose of fun”

    To be fair that might be the premise of Series 11 and 12 but we all know how I feel about that shit. Please refer to the Doctor’s “because it’s kind” speech at the end of Series 10 for what I think the show is really about. The Doctor started off as a mischievous old man who ran away from home because he was bored, but slowly turned into something closer to a hero archetype, although he’s not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. “I’m the Doctor and I save people.”

    That’s a good point RE: VIII not having any holograms. They wouldn’t, because everybody was resurrected.

    #259822
    Dave
    Participant

    They could have made a hologram double of one of the living crew, just to help out like.

    Two Hollisters, one alive and one a hologram! Imagine the fun! (They could call it Me4 because one Hollister is big enough to count as two etc.)

    #259823
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    To be fair that might be the premise of Series 11 and 12 but we all know how I feel about that shit. Please refer to the Doctor’s “because it’s kind” speech at the end of Series 10 for what I think the show is really about. The Doctor started off as a mischievous old man who ran away from home because he was bored, but slowly turned into something closer to a hero archetype, although he’s not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. “I’m the Doctor and I save people.”

    The Doctor always saves people whenever she can, yes, but none of the Doctors saw themselves as a hero by profession. Just think of how many times he referred to himself as “a traveller” or “just passing through” etc. The character development you’re talking about is him choosing to prioritise saving people whenever the situation arises, not him making the search for heroic opportunities his life’s only goal. As has been said, The Doctor doesn’t need to look for trouble, it finds her.

    There were occasions where The Doctor would boast about taking personal responsibility for the security of Earth, like in The Christmas Invasion or The Eleventh Hour, but this never reflected in his actual MO. The closest the show ever got to being like that was in the Pertwee era when he stayed on Earth and worked for UNIT, but that’s because he was pretty much forced to.

    Anyway, maybe the Ace Rimmer/Doctor comparison is apt regardless. Despite the massive differences in motivation, like Ace in Stoke, The Doctor has no specific jurisdiction and no actual pending quests that need seeing to, so it would be equally dumb if she sought to pass on the mantle of “The Doctor” before she died, and it be so crucial that her successor leave in the TARDIS in under a week that the successor needs to participate in faked death hijinks.

    #259827
    bloodteller
    Participant

    Talking of holograms, does the ship have one in Series VIII? Or do they just not bother?

    not sure if this is relevant or not, but this reminded me that VIII is the only series of the entire show where nobody even uses the word “hologram”

    #259828
    bloodteller
    Participant

    That’s correct. The issue is over Rimmer (and the others) believing without question that a knight could escape from the AR machine, threaten Ace, and eventually kill Rimmer.

    is it really so out of the question that a video game character could escape from an AR machine into the real world though? earlier in the episodes all the game characters are seemingly advanced enough AI that they’re basically real people, who’s to say one couldnt escape and start causing trouble?

    also weirder things definitely have happened to the crew. the triplicator in demons and angels and the mirror universe portal in only the good are both basically cartoon magic. i’d say the knight escaping is more plausible than either of those really

    #259830
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Confidence and Paranoia, Polymorph (particularly Emohawk), Bodyswap, Timeslides, Triplicator, Gunmen, shapeshifting/telepathy in general, Red Dwarf is full of extremely weird shit, and shit where concepts, ideas, thought etc are given physical form. A knight escaping from the AR machine really isn’t that weird.

    #259831
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    terrorform is fucked up too
    luck being a virus is stupid as well that doesn’t make sense
    how can a “virus” control the laws of the very universe itself?
    sexual magnetism makes more sense
    since it’s just pheremones and stuff

    What IS “luck”? Just probability? How does a virus control probability? What the fuck?

    stuff like “luck” and “coincidence” really makes the universe feel like… there’s some mystical aura swirling around that controls these things
    what is “luck”? what is “coincidence?” mathematically? how do we quantify these?

    #259832
    Dax101
    Participant

    is it really so out of the question that a video game character could escape from an AR machine into the real world though? earlier in the episodes all the game characters are seemingly advanced enough AI that they’re basically real people, who’s to say one couldnt escape and start causing trouble?
    also weirder things definitely have happened to the crew. the triplicator in demons and angels and the mirror universe portal in only the good are both basically cartoon magic. i’d say the knight escaping is more plausible than either of those really

    When you remember its just headset based. basically like the VR games they are doing today but far more advanced. it does kinda make you wonder how exactly these things are being physically formed outside of it. its not exactly a holodeck after all. so the moment it happens someone should be like what the hell? but Lister just mentions it so casual like its not the first time its happened.

    Confidence and Paranoia, Polymorph (particularly Emohawk), Bodyswap, Timeslides, Triplicator, Gunmen, shapeshifting/telepathy in general, Red Dwarf is full of extremely weird shit, and shit where concepts, ideas, thought etc are given physical form. A knight escaping from the AR machine really isn’t that weird.

    And they are treated with the characters being confused by it.not every concept needs to make sense in real-world science. science fiction can do what it wants. although usually, it works best if you set in-universe rules for the made up science.

    #259833
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    If not every concept needs to make sense and science fiction can do what it wants, then why can’t a knight escape from the AR machine? It’s such a bizarre thing to stop at and go no, THIS is the line. Everything else? Fine. But THIS? Bloody hell.

    #259834
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Also, it’s a bit bizarre that people are annoyed at the idea that a knight could escape from the AR machine, when it didn’t. Lister just said it did. And they believed him. But why would Lister lie about something like that? I think the other characters would trust/believe that Lister wouldn’t just invent that.

    #259835
    bloodteller
    Participant

    i think a knight could probably escape an AR machine anyway…but even then, a knight didn’t escape from the AR machine, lister just said one did and people believed him. it didnt happen, fiction within fiction

    #259836
    bloodteller
    Participant

    it would be quite funny if they did a series 13 of red dwarf and there’s an episode where all kinds of shit escapes an AR machine and then suddenly nobody can make snarky jokes about things escaping an AR machine that didnt actually escape an AR machine in one episode 20 years ago

    #259837
    Dave
    Participant

    I wonder what they thought happened to the knight (that escaped from the AR machine). If they believed Lister about the knight (escaping from the AR machine) then you’d think they would be a bit more concerned that there’s a knight (escaped from the AR machine) on the loose.

    #259838
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    The AR Machine lie never bothered me because the only two people who might actually believe it were Rimmer and Cat. This may be giving the episode way too much credit but it never crossed my mind that Kryten was fooled by that lie, maybe because when he detected “Ace” sounding more weasely, he put what was happening together not long after that.

    Rimmer was fooled enough to take it seriously, I mean he believes in aliens and has encountered many strange things so why not. All Lister had to do was generate an immediate threat. But mainly, the Cat bought it, at least long enough to allow Rimmer to have a dignified farewell not undercut by the Cat’s insults and quips (i.e. the Cat being a dick to Rimmer in Promised Land, which is the last thing Rimmer needed if was gonna become Ace).

    Whoever didn’t realize Rimmer became Ace by the end of Stoke must’ve either been told or figured it out immediately. In Blue, Lister seeks Kryten’s medical help after his dream of kissing Ace, so it might not be a stretch to assume he explained his whole dream.

    #259839
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Lister tells everybody something has escaped from the AR machine. Cat says “yeah right bud, we ain’t fallin’ for that one again.” Kryten writes a 500-word essay on why that doesn’t make any sense and breaks the established rules of the universe they’re in and how Lister lying in such a manner is immoral.

    #259840
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I wonder what they thought happened to the knight (that escaped from the AR machine). If they believed Lister about the knight (escaping from the AR machine) then you’d think they would be a bit more concerned that there’s a knight (escaped from the AR machine) on the loose.

    I love you, Dave. I love you so much.

    #259841
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    A knight escaping from the AR machine isn’t even less believable than the existence of the cat race.

    The part of Lister’s lie that is so incredible isn’t the knight escaping from AR (maybe it totally is possible and Kryten knows this, but it just didn’t happen on this occasion), but the knight being able to kill Rimmer. Unless this simulation of a medieval knight was carrying around an EMP grenade, he isn’t going to harm a being of pure light by running at him with a lance or whatever.

    #259842

    Weird shit happening in the show is generally treated as weird shit happening and explained by Kryten or Holly.

    Weird shit happening that isn’t in any way explained but treated as “oh yeah that happened” doesn’t work for me.

    It’s the fact that nobody even questions the fact that a character that only exists in your head while you have a headset on managed to become sentient and leave the room it was previously projected in, and then managed to become solid and kill an existing character – one who’s hardlight and thus almost impossible to kill anyway. It doesn’t draw even a raised eyebrow from anyone. Even Cat, the least bright of our bunch, should at least be a little worried that this can happen.

    And yes, you can totally head-canon it away, but it doesn’t take away the nagging feeling that it’s actually just a bit of sloppy writing.

    #259843
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    The reason they immediately cut away after Lister says that an escaped AR knight killed Rimmer is because what followed was a full hour of confusion and arguing, where Kryten keeps coming up with reasons that it makes no sense but Lister just keeps digging his heels in, and Kryten will occasionally demand that “Ace” gives his opinion and he’ll just sort of uneasily and half-heartedly agree with Lister.

    #259845
    Dax101
    Participant

    Weird shit happening in the show is generally treated as weird shit happening and explained by Kryten or Holly.

    Weird shit happening that isn’t in any way explained but treated as “oh yeah that happened” doesn’t work for me.
    It’s the fact that nobody even questions the fact that a character that only exists in your head while you have a headset on managed to become sentient and leave the room it was previously projected in, and then managed to become solid and kill an existing character – one who’s hardlight and thus almost impossible to kill anyway. It doesn’t draw even a raised eyebrow from anyone. Even Cat, the least bright of our bunch, should at least be a little worried that this can happen.
    And yes, you can totally head-canon it away, but it doesn’t take away the nagging feeling that it’s actually just a bit of sloppy writing.

    Exactly!

    #259846
    Dave
    Participant

    Kryten figured it out.

    #259891
    ChrisM
    Participant

    In Psirens Rimmers light bee is on battery backup but by Rimmerworld it survives at least 600 years …

    While in Promised land it indicates that light bees can be charged with an AC like socket . If that’s the case why is it a worry when Lister is going through the list of Starbug issues due to them losing the Dwarf?
    They upgraded his light bee in Legion. They probably gave him a recharge off-screen too.

    Concerning Rimmerworld, they actually stated that the escape pod was equipped with solar batteries (or some such thing) so Rimmer’s lightbee could be charged indefinitely.

    #259981
    Rubber
    Participant

    terrorform is fucked up too

    luck being a virus is stupid as well that doesn’t make sense
    how can a “virus” control the laws of the very universe itself?
    sexual magnetism makes more sense
    since it’s just pheremones and stuff
    What IS “luck”? Just probability? How does a virus control probability? What the fuck?
    stuff like “luck” and “coincidence” really makes the universe feel like… there’s some mystical aura swirling around that controls these things
    what is “luck”? what is “coincidence?” mathematically? how do we quantify these?

    Maybe the luck virus activates the dormant psychic portions of the brain — like the holo-virus! — but in a less directly controlled, weaponised way, so you’re basically discreetly manipulating your surroundings without being consciously aware that you’re doing so or with only the vaguest hint of your desired outcome when you do something. It could definitely account for Lister typing in the correct code… maybe less so stumbling over useful objects in a corridor at just the right moment but HMMMMMMM I don’t hate this explanation overall.

    #259982
    Rubber
    Participant

    terrorform is fucked up too

    luck being a virus is stupid as well that doesn’t make sense
    how can a “virus” control the laws of the very universe itself?
    sexual magnetism makes more sense
    since it’s just pheremones and stuff
    What IS “luck”? Just probability? How does a virus control probability? What the fuck?
    stuff like “luck” and “coincidence” really makes the universe feel like… there’s some mystical aura swirling around that controls these things
    what is “luck”? what is “coincidence?” mathematically? how do we quantify these?
    Maybe the luck virus activates the dormant psychic portions of the brain — like the holo-virus! — but in a less directly controlled, weaponised way, so you’re basically discreetly manipulating your surroundings without being consciously aware that you’re doing so or with only the vaguest hint of your desired outcome when you do something. It could definitely account for Lister typing in the correct code… maybe less so stumbling over useful objects in a corridor at just the right moment but HMMMMMMM I don’t hate this explanation overall.

    ACTUALLY, you know what, the objects clearly existed on the ship or at least somewhere in the universe already and he subconsciously summoned them in a fraction of a second before he needed them, just like Harry Potter with the summoning spell, and they arrived with such speed one of them actually smashed him on the ankle so actually YES I have solved this and solved it well.

    #260169
    No
    Participant

    All of your unanswered questions can be solved right here in the brand new Red Dwarf forum https://unofficialreddwarfforum.com/

    #260179
    Rubber
    Participant

    All of your unanswered questions can be solved right here in the brand new Red Dwarf forum https://unofficialreddwarfforum.com/

    Thanks, Jimbob! How soon will the UK have access to a free and effective COVID-19 vaccine?

    #260185
    No
    Participant

    All of your unanswered questions can be solved right here in the brand new Red Dwarf forum https://unofficialreddwarfforum.com/

    Thanks, Jimbob! How soon will the UK have access to a free and effective COVID-19 vaccine?

    You won’t be getting one

    #260187
    No
    Participant

    However everyone who joins the BRAND NEW RED DWARF FORUM https://unofficialreddwarfforum.com/ will get one, especially Bluey.

    #260188
    tombow
    Participant

    so Lister had Frankenstein in a cupboard but she never made noise when Rimmer was there?

    #260222
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    so Lister had Frankenstein in a cupboard but she never made noise when Rimmer was there?

    He couldn’t hear her over the sound of his ‘Learn Esperanto While You Sleep’ tapes.

    #261095
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    In the “See you in ten minutes?” scene, why does Lister keep zapping Hollister with the time wand? Why does he even do it once?

    Even when first watching Pete Part 2 as a teenager who was completely uncritical about Red Dwarf, this completely baffled me.

    #261101
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    The Psirens create a nit. Okay, the premise is that they lay in wait and lure in unsuspecting space travelers with their telepathic tricks to feed on them.

    Except this is the Red Dwarf universe, where life begins and ends with Earth. How many space travelers are out there? The Psirens must go centuries between feedings!

    #261367
    Dave
    Participant

    “The way he only ever used three pieces of toilet paper: one up, one down and one to polish.”

    How does Lister know this? Did they really have to take a dump on that voice-activated toilet in front of each other in the bunkroom?

    And does Lister literally mean that Rimmer just polished any unwiped shit on his arse and walked around all day like that?

    Eurgh.

    #261368
    Spaceworm Jim
    Participant

    I’ve complained about that toilet paper line so many times to so many people because of how it opens up those questions. No one has seems to have really gotten just how fucked up it is, or maybe they didn’t know I was talking about Red Dwarf, so I’m glad to finally hear this occurred to someone else. Thanks, Dave.

    #261369

    Perhaps Rimmer’s diet is extremely high in fibre so he has very clean poos. All it takes is a couple of wipes and he is done.

    #261374
    Dave
    Participant

    In which case, what’s Lister’s problem?

    #261375

    Lister, eating and drinking nothing but beer and curry, has never experienced this phenomenon of healthy, regular, and clean bowel movements and so automatically assumes Rimmer’s are as dirty as his.

    Also “that time we used a whole bog roll in a day, you thought that was aliens as well” – clearly Rimmer isn’t used to the idea of anyone using a lot of toilet paper. In comes Lister with his beer and curry shits and an entire toilet roll gets used up and he can’t comprehend that anyone person would use a whole roll so assumes aliens.

    #261380

    I love Rimmer’s use of “we” in that, as if he used the bog roll. Given that Cat, at the time, seemed to enjoy toileting in ‘unconventional’ places, it basically means Lister used it up. And if he didn’t… who did?

    #261381
    si
    Participant

    And if he didn’t… who did?

    Aliens. Duh.

    #261392

    I love Rimmer’s use of “we” in that, as if he used the bog roll. Given that Cat, at the time, seemed to enjoy toileting in ‘unconventional’ places, it basically means Lister used it up. And if he didn’t… who did?

    I presumed it was pre-accident, so it would have been both Rimmer and Lister using it.

    #261401
    Dave
    Participant

    I presumed it was pre-accident

    More likely immediately after an accident.

    #261422

    Was Rimmer really expecting aliens within the solar system? I always imagined that was an obsession that developed post-accident.

    #261434

    Plenty of people think aliens do shit on Earth, it is not out of the realms of possibility.

    And later Dwarf ret-cons the trip as up and down the solar system as across the galaxy and back, so you could read that to think Rimmer expected to bump into aliens deeper in the Milky Way

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