September 20, 2018 at 10:29 pm #237346
Right. Come on, discussion time.September 20, 2018 at 11:10 pm #237347
No, I think series 7 and 8 showed how you can fatigue the idea of them fairly easy.September 20, 2018 at 11:17 pm #237348
Bargain Bin Holly
Ace – I wouldn’t mind him coming back, but I like believing BTE-XII Rimmer is the Rimmer from VIII and I feel like him returning will give an excuse to fuck that up. Otherwise as long as its not some joke episode and actually meaningful, Ace done seriously is best Ace (The beginning to Stoke Me a Clipper is an exception).
Duane – It’d probably be pretty hammy, wouldn’t it? Can’t imagine how’d they do it well.
Why not spice this list up a bit? How about Kochanski and Holly (Norman & Hattie versions).
Kochanski – Can only see this done as part of a series final, movie, or feature length special. It’s been built-up too much to be a throwaway.
Holly (Norman) – I liked him in Skipper (Fingers-crossed GNP’s de-aging technology has improved since 2016), and wouldn’t mind him back as a regular character as long as his reappearance is explained.
Holly (Hattie) – I’d like to see her back, I’ve suggested this once, that if Red Dwarf ever ends on a feature length special or movie that Hattie could come back as a random different character as a wink-and-nudge. But otherwise, I don’t know how they can make her reappear without it being forced and having the show be critised for pandering to nostalgia.September 20, 2018 at 11:18 pm #237349
Duane Dibbley – Yes, if it’s an adaptation of his Smegazine series based on the idea that the despair squid hallucination is the true reality.
Ace Rimmer – Yes, if the Ace who appears is actually the original Rimmer who departed in ‘Stoke Me A Clipper’, revealing that the Rimmer we’ve been seeing for the whole of the Dave era is actually a second Rimmer hologram created after nanoRimmer died after the end of ‘Only The Good… ‘ (explaining why the UKTV Rimmer is a bit more of an asshole than BBC Rimmer). OG Rimmer would mostly keep up the Ace persona, so it’d essentially be a sequel to ‘Me^2’ and ‘Dimension Jump’ at the same time.September 20, 2018 at 11:20 pm #237350
Bargain Bin Holly
Ace Rimmer – Yes, if the Ace who appears is actually the original Rimmer who departed in ‘Stoke Me A Clipper’, revealing that the Rimmer we’ve been seeing for the whole of the Dave era is actually a second Rimmer hologram created after nanoRimmer died after the end of ‘Only The Good… ‘ (explaining why the UKTV Rimmer is a bit more of an asshole than BBC Rimmer). OG Rimmer would mostly keep up the Ace persona, so it’d essentially be a sequel to ‘Me^2’ and ‘Dimension Jump’ at the same time.
If this was Reddit I’d give you gold, but this is G&T so I’ll say bravo.September 20, 2018 at 11:30 pm #237351
I’ll take fucking anything if it’s funny so sureSeptember 21, 2018 at 1:06 am #237352
No thank you. I get the impression I’m rather alone on this, but I didn’t really like all the nostalgia of the last series and I’m certainly not interested in beating those particular dead horses any further.September 21, 2018 at 1:16 am #237354
Bargain Bin Holly
Mechocracy really should’ve been in XI shouldn’t it? In XII the nostalgia kinda becomes crowded with all the core cameos in one particular series (Talkie Toaster, Holly, Captain Hollister). Plus had it been in XI it might’ve coincided with the 2016 US election so it may or may not have got some increased viewership, idk.September 21, 2018 at 2:15 am #237358
I liked the returning characters in XII (Holly, Hollister, toaster), because they kept it brief, but not all the back references for the sake of them. Like bringing up the Uncle Frank story again, in whichever episode that was.September 21, 2018 at 2:30 am #237359
Bargain Bin Holly
That was M-Corp I believe.
Yeah, you do have to kinda give them a pass on the cameos at least since Talkie, Holly, Captain Hollister are all part of Red Dwarf lore in one way or another. The excessive callbacks to mostly trivial tho I could do without, I don’t know if its nostalgia or a nod to continuity tbh.
I wonder if Doug browses this website.September 21, 2018 at 7:30 am #237361
Pete Part Three
Fan Friendly References and Cameos: NO
New jokes, plots and characters: YESSeptember 21, 2018 at 7:43 am #237363
I think Ace and Duane are pretty much done now. I didn’t actually mind the first return appearances in Polymorph II that much, but that should have been it – subsequently they’ve been run into the ground.
(Although I wouldn’t have minded Ace turning up to save the day at the end of Only The Good, just to avoid the cliffhanger.)
Going back to those characters now, especially in the broader style of the Dave era, would be a mistake I think.September 21, 2018 at 9:05 am #237364
I’d rather them do something new than go digging old characters out of mothballs. The odd callback is fine every now and then, but the last few episodes of XII were basically made entirely out of references to past episodesSeptember 21, 2018 at 11:06 am #237366
Bongo, Spanners and the Padre should turn up with no sign of Ace.September 21, 2018 at 11:42 am #237367
They got me abit with the talkie toaster nostalgia in mechocracy but in repeated viewing the scene is just repeating of white hole and no matter how giddy it makes the fans for a period it still does seem abit like scraping the barrel.September 21, 2018 at 11:42 am #237368
Okay, I’m done. So long, everyone. It’s been fun.September 21, 2018 at 11:55 am #237370
GuysSeptember 21, 2018 at 12:11 pm #237371
Okay, I’m done. So long, everyone. It’s been fun.
Of all the Jawscvmcdia threads to prompt a walkout, this seems like an odd one, in that it’s actually reasonably relevant and relatively non-trollish.September 21, 2018 at 1:03 pm #237373
Maybe Ben P was only here for the Jawscvmcdia troll posts, and this more serious topic was a ‘jumping the shark’ moment for him?
Also, I hope he was only talking about G&T when he said he was done…
This is why if you’re going to make a Dramatic Declaration of Departure from Dwarf Discussions, please do not be vague, lest I worry about your personal safety. Also, maybe consider sticking around? Y’all are cool people (mostly ;-P), and your voices would be missed.September 21, 2018 at 1:28 pm #237374
Not really practical for Ace is it? Unless they have a budget for Captain Marvel/Sam Jackson de-ageing for Chris. Alternatively they could give him a hair do like Ed Harris in Apollo 13 and make him grizzled and scarred and find him in a bar on a world inhabited by droids and somewhat tolerant simulants.
Duane, nah. He’s not real so for them to bring him back is more of a job, and the Emohawk Duane was a ropey way of doing it, but it at least was clean and explained despite it not making sense. I wouldn’t trust them to find a way of getting him back that wasn’t dodgy now.September 21, 2018 at 1:36 pm #237375
>>Okay, I’m done. So long, everyone. It’s been fun.
>Of all the Jawscvmcdia threads to prompt a walkout, this seems like an odd one, in that it’s actually reasonably relevant and relatively non-trollish.
Yeah, this isn’t a bad thread, all things considered. Some good discussion going on in hereSeptember 21, 2018 at 1:42 pm #237378
> I wouldn’t trust them to find a way of getting him back that wasn’t dodgy now.
Well how can you top the Dibbley family?September 21, 2018 at 1:52 pm #237379
I re-watched Back In The Red recently, and not gonna lie, I actually laughed at the Dibbley family scene. It’s just so ridiculous and bizarre that I found it funny. Cat comes up with an incredibly shit disguise idea- and everyone inexplicably thinks it’s an absolutely brilliant idea, cheering “Yes!!!” and stuff, before gleefully going and putting on the shit disguise themselves. It’s just sort of amusing that they’re genuinely excited about such a terrible planSeptember 21, 2018 at 1:52 pm #237380
Yeah, this isn’t a bad thread, all things considered.
Really? I thought it was an intentional reference to two characters which are widely regarded as already overused, and the absurd question of whether people would want them to be used even more.September 21, 2018 at 1:53 pm #237381
How did Kochanski even know what they were talking about? Cat mentions the Dibbleys and she goes “Yeah!!!!” like she knows who that is.September 21, 2018 at 2:05 pm #237383
I guess in her dimension something similar to the events of BTR happened, and she was around for it.September 21, 2018 at 2:12 pm #237384
Why even would the cat be excited about revisiting this alter ego that he hated so much? its out of character but if you did it within character then you wouldn’t be able to do the joke at all.September 21, 2018 at 2:54 pm #237387
Really? I thought it was an intentional reference to two characters which are widely regarded as already overused, and the absurd question of whether people would want them to be used even more.
Maybe, but I remember speculation about whether Ace was going to show up at some point in XI or XII, so it’s not outside the realm of reasonable discussion even if most people think it would probably be a bad idea.
Even while watching Skipper I was half-expecting an Ace reference, at least, due to the concept.September 21, 2018 at 2:57 pm #237388
I think you could do something interesting with Duane. Explore how he’s a manifestation of Cat’s insecure side or something. He’s who Cat is when you strip away the fashion.September 21, 2018 at 5:52 pm #237395
Despite my earlier plot suggestion, bringing back Ace Rimmer in earnest is kind of a dead end for me.
Because if you bring back Ace Rimmer, you’ve got to acknowledge Stoke Me A Clipper and what happened to our Rimmer when he became Ace in some way… but I really dislike that story and that character development. The idea of Ace Rimmer kind of loses its novelty if most every Rimmer in the multiverse is able to become him.
It’s kind of like Fathers & Suns acknowledging Ouroboros. It was very funny, but was it worth reminding everyone of such a perplexing and melodramatic plot point from 15+ years ago?September 21, 2018 at 6:08 pm #237397
Fathers and Suns is worth it imo, and being able to do entire new (fantastic) episodes based on older ones is quite intriguing to me, and it gives the whole series a great sense of continuity, even though Dwarf arguably has none
Contrastingly, ignoring Ace in Skipper is awkward and stands out much more than a reference to the past, because it just makes you wonder if they forgot such an important event happenedSeptember 21, 2018 at 6:23 pm #237398
Well Doug is ignoring Only The Good for the 98% most part and that was an actual big cliffhanger…
I don’t mind the Ouroboros stuff in Fathers and Suns as i think its one of the better element of the episode, but i also think when Rimmer has to remind Lister and the audience that this complex event even happened it just makes you think that can of worms alone probably should just have been left alone.September 21, 2018 at 6:46 pm #237400
I think it was fine, it didn’t take long to remind people of the setup and it made for a great scene, arguably one of the best of the Dave era.September 21, 2018 at 8:11 pm #237402
Yeah, much as I hate the whole Lister is his own father nonsense, Fathers and Suns definitely almost justifies it by being very creative and funny with the concept.
I think, really, though, no callbacks in XIII. Skipper was lovely, Talkie Toaster would have been brilliant if Lister’s speech had been more exaggerated (as if he was trying desperately to cover himself by listing an increasingly far-fetched list of bread-and-currant-related food products), and The End in M-Corp was funny once but otherwise a bit tedious. On the back of Justice II and Polymorph III the previous year, it was definitely a bit much.September 22, 2018 at 12:20 am #237406
> Talkie Toaster would have been brilliant if Lister’s speech had been more exaggerated (as if he was trying desperately to cover himself by listing an increasingly far-fetched list of bread-and-currant-related food products)
Yeah, it feels like it should have gone on a lot longer. Plus ” definitely no smegging donuts” is a pretty weak end to it. In White Hole it’s flapjacks, which is a sort of hoity-toity posh git’s food, so it makes sense Lister would say “definitely” about them-it’s the sort of food he’d hate. But donuts? What’s wrong with donuts?September 22, 2018 at 1:14 am #237408
Maybe Lister’s self-fatherhood and Rimmer becoming Ace are different enough that an Ace return wouldn’t work as well as Fathers & Suns did?
In Ouroboros, Lister completes his time loop, his dramatic arc for that story is over, and he goes back to normal the next week. But with Rimmer becoming Ace, we only really see the start of that story. All character development happens off-screen, we never find out what happened with him, and as far as I recall Lister never even tells Cat and Kryten that Rimmer wasn’t actually double-dead.
Also, Lister’s time travel mother impregnation is weird as hell, but it’s not out of character. Rimmer graduating into a confident, tough, altruistic action hero is completely at odds with his character, and only gets close to working in the context of it being his absolute final appearance, which it obviously wasn’t.
So because of all that, an Ace return would either need to awkwardly address all those loose threads, or awkwardly dance around the fact that it’s not addressing any of those loose threads.
A part of me would be well up for an episode that was properly about how Rimmer tried to be Ace, failed, and passed on the mantle to yet another parallel version of himself before returning to Red Dwarf, but another part of me hates everything to do with the “every Rimmer is destined to be a hologrammatic super hero” idea, and would rather Doug continued to pretend it didn’t happen.September 22, 2018 at 11:33 am #237409
flapjacks, which is a sort of hoity-toity posh git’s food
Um, they’re really not.September 22, 2018 at 12:15 pm #237410
> flapjacks, which is a sort of hoity-toity posh git’s food
Um, they’re really not.
*clears throat*September 22, 2018 at 12:43 pm #237411
my interpretation was that every version of Ace is secretly our Rimmer underneath, and turns back to normal when no ones looking and he can relax and take the wig off.
And I’ve always thought there may even have been truth to what he hears in Back to Reality about him being a hypnotised spy or something. After all, Lister re-starting the universe was mentioned as a real-world thing in the novels. Maybe the despair squid dug those things from their subconscious.September 22, 2018 at 1:07 pm #237412
Stoke me a clipper is when you dissect the character of Ace Rimmer and i don’t think you was ever meant to dissect the character. the point of the character was fulfilled in Dimension Jump.September 22, 2018 at 6:49 pm #237413
Bargain Bin Holly
I don’t mind it, Ace isn’t touched much in RD media when you really think about it. so I liked the experimentation done since the end product was quite nice terrible CGI aside.September 22, 2018 at 7:45 pm #237414
I don’t mind the idea of Ace being an example to all other Rimmers of what their potential is (or at least was at one point). It’s quite a positive and edifying way to use the character.
But I do think the idea is a bit silly that any other Rimmer would be able to become Ace and take over the role, with a minimum of preparation. It takes away from what makes Ace special if our Rimmer can just put on a wig, do a silly voice and replace him outright.September 22, 2018 at 8:05 pm #237415
Bargain Bin Holly
I always factor it in with Rimmer saving the crew at the end of Out of Time, coupled with him being the one to chastise Lister for abusing the Time Drive in Tikka to Ride, as a series of events leading to him becoming Ace. That might not have been intentional but it has always worked for me.September 22, 2018 at 9:17 pm #237416
Although I’ve really softened on Stoke over the years, overall I still find the multi-dimensional lineage of millions of super-Rimmers a really broad, daft direction to take Ace in. In Dimension Jump, he was simply an excellent officer in the Space Corps – a very selfless, talented person – who contrasted well with our Rimmer, who is the polar opposite. Turning him into an actual super-hero, with an almost destiny-like way of putting other Rimmers into his position, is kind of cartoonish in comparison. There’s still a lot of nice character stuff in the episode, but it sits alongside Lister being his own dad in terms of unnecessarily convoluting the show’s mythology. My favourite version of Red Dwarf is a bunch of unfortunate misfits stranded in deep space, so by giving the characters this big, sci-fi gravitas really takes away from that.September 22, 2018 at 10:32 pm #237417
It would be so utterly Rimmerish for our Rimmer to be the only one out of the infinities who DIDN’T manage to become Ace, though. Even when he’s destined by the universe to become something, he fucks up.
Also who toasts donuts?September 22, 2018 at 11:23 pm #237419
Or flapjacks, now that you mention it.September 23, 2018 at 12:44 am #237421
No.September 23, 2018 at 12:48 am #237422
Doug at DJ
“The guys and I have always talked about an episode where they all get to be Ace. We’re doing that episode”September 23, 2018 at 12:52 am #237423
maybe that’s why Ace was never mentioned in Skipper? IX-XII Rimmer is VIII Rimmer, and he never knew about Ace (and the others think it would be cruel to tell him, especially as this Rimmer has been the prat version for so long it’s too late for him to Ace)September 23, 2018 at 1:00 am #237424
Or flapjacks, now that you mention it.
I’d always assumed it meant the US meaning (pancakes), but that’s weird too.September 23, 2018 at 1:16 am #237426
Rimmer overcoming his neuroses and becoming a straight up hero makes perfect sense as a conclusion to his story, because that was always the ‘beyond the horizon’ point for his character development. If Craig had been the one to leave, he probably would’ve ended up with Kochanski.
However, there are some serious issues with the way this was executed:
– Rimmer becoming a hero is one thing; him becoming a near literal super hero is way too over the top.
– The whole idea with the legacy of thousands of Rimmers becoming Ace one after another makes Rimmer too important to the universe, and it makes no sense and I hate it. (One man to protect the entire multiverse?)
– Rimmer becoming Ace and leaving happens far too quickly to feel natural.
– Lister’s plan to pretend to kill Rimmer as a virtual knight is utterly stupid, and him faking his death really makes Lister the villain of the episode, because he lies to Cat and Kryten for no reason, causing them to mourn someone who’s still alive (um, you know what I mean). Frankly he got what he deserved when Kryten did the same to him in Back to Earth.
– Rimmer didn’t become Ace because he wanted to help people (because Ace has no specific people to save or grand mission to carry out), he just did it out of a desire to fulfil his personal potential. That’s not heroism, that’s egoism. Granted, he does genuinely overcome his cowardice for this, but it’s half-baked as character growth goes.September 23, 2018 at 2:12 am #237427
Bargain Bin Holly
– I think its a fun idea, though he’s more meant to be James Bond than Batman, which if you consider Bond a super hero I guess is the case.
– Considering the real size of the universe let alone a multiverse, an entire planet of Ace coffins is quite modest.
– Its done as well as you could hope really, like I said you either factor in how Rimmer acts in the final 5 minutes of Out of Time, how he is in Tikka to Ride, and this… or just take this which is fine too I guess.
– It really depends on how you view the crew dynamic. Do they care about each other? Do they hate each other? Do they tolerate each other? Its up in the air as far as the show is concerned, but I wouldn’t call Kryten and Cat’s relationship with Rimmer on equal footing with that of Lister and Kochanski.
– If you’re factoring Out of Time with this is it works in that he did try to save the crew of selflessness when he could’ve been killed by the falling debris while doing so.September 23, 2018 at 2:13 am #237428
Bargain Bin Holly
It’s funny how an aspect of Red Dwarf’s most loved episode is one of the show’s most hated characters, lol.
(Yes, I get it, he works in that episode but doesn’t in every subsequent appearance; tis a joke)September 23, 2018 at 1:45 pm #237429
>maybe that’s why Ace was never mentioned in Skipper? IX-XII Rimmer is VIII Rimmer, and he never knew about Ace (and the others think it would be cruel to tell him, especially as this Rimmer has been the prat version for so long it’s too late for him to Ace)
I feel like Doug has already contradicted that thought many times already.
Many would like to believe that this Rimmer is a mixture of the 2 Rimmers from 1-7 and series 8 but it seems like Doug left the show in such a mess after series 7-8 that it would be abit of a mess to explain also.September 23, 2018 at 4:19 pm #237430
I’d agree that Ace Rimmer is very James Bond-ish, but Stoke makes him more of a super hero because he considers it his responsibility to protect the universe in general, not carry out missions assigned to him by the agency he belongs. He’s more like an intergalactic Batman than Bond by that point.
I suppose my distaste for Stoke’s plot comes down to the “destined to be a hero” idea being a trite cliche that good Dwarf would take great care to avoid. In Back to Reality that idea is just a joke, but 5 years later they’re playing it straight.September 23, 2018 at 7:48 pm #237431
Agreed. I also think that part of what makes the original Ace such a great character is that he is, inherently, just a normal person.
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