Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Your Unpopular Red Dwarf Opinions

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  • #258379
    Katydid
    Participant

    Can of Worms isn’t a bad episode.

    #258380
    Dax101
    Participant

    We will never get anything Red Dwarf related that is as good as its peak years of the first 6 seasons. at least with Doug writing alone.

    #258404
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Series VIII has the best deleted scenes. Series V has by far the worst (aside from Back to Reality).

    #258405
    Hamish
    Participant

    X has the best Smeg Ups. Not sure that is unpopular.

    #258406
    RealBigOleDummy
    Participant

    Hmmm….. my unpopular opinions… most have already been covered actually but here goes.

    I hated, well…. disliked immensely anyway…. Chloë Annett as Kochanski. She was always a stand in for me and was rarely funny To me bringing her in was by far the worst thing that has happened to Red Dwarf. She’s much too…. “classy” in her portrayal of Kristine. Claire was much more down to earth in her portrayal and much much closer to Daves …. social standing.

    Marooned is an average episode at best.

    Waiting for God is one of the better episodes period.

    Tikka to Ride and Cured were puerile attempts to “shock/titillate” though both had a few laughs.

    I never want to see the crew make it back to Earth and as such can only hope that an “ending” is never put on film. I always want to think of the crew as out there making someone laugh.

    I didn’t think Pete was as bad as most make out either and BTE was pretty good.

    There, my major differences with ….. most people. Oh, and I like Norman as Holly more than Hattie. Hattie was excellent mind you but to me Norman will ALWAYS be “Holly”.

    #258407
    si
    Participant

    I didn’t think Pete was as bad as most make out either

    I like quite a lot of Krytie TV.

    #258408
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    VIII is really funny in general, just less so than every other BBC series

    #258431
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    The Beginning is a genuinely poor episode outside of its ending. Nice model shots, but neither Hoguey nor the Simulants are funny, and the threat is very limply set up. The entire first half of the episode is just a wet fart.

    #258438
    Spaceworm Jim
    Participant

    The ending isn’t even that good.

    #258447
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Surprised Rimmer never used that time drive to go visit his hero, Napoleon Bonaparte.

    Wouldn’t that have been a fun episode

    Napoleon did appear, onscreen, in Better Than Life. Granted he had no lines, but he was there.

    #258461
    Spaceworm Jim
    Participant

    That Napoleon isn’t even real.

    #258467
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    Compared to Pol Pot, Mao etc., Napoleon comes off pretty well. He released the Jews from the Rome Ghetto, but when the Papal States were restored after his defeat, they were forced back. His legal code remained the basis of much modern law in Western countries for a long time. I think the writers of RD didn’t go beyond the history the British wrote.

    #258468
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Series VII is a series I actively enjoy (in a different way than I-VI mind you) but even the Kochanski episodes have something to enjoy in them. And I especially love Nanarchy, which I think is a pretty well-executed mythology episode with a nicely-done Holly comeback. I’ve always been a fan of scenes where characters get together, compare notes, and just work out their plan of action, and Nanarchy has a couple nice examples of that. I think it’s a greatly underrated episode that was ahead of its time.

    Chris Barrie’s a phenomenal actor but Rimmer has lost all his edge and subtlety. Rimmer’s been a caricature since Series VI. He went from being the best character to easily the worst, to the point where I’m surprised someone hasn’t pulled him aside and said “Dude, wake up. Rimmer is a real person with pathos and edge.” Maybe it’s Barrie, maybe it’s the writing. I mean I do love the present iterations of the show, but while Lister, Cat, Kryten, and even Holly have shown glimpses of that old magic, a large part of me is afraid that Rimmer’s spark has gone out forever, unless something drastic happens.

    Back to Reality is a very good episode of Red Dwarf, but the more I think about it, I’m not even sure it makes my top ten.

    I actively think Polymorph is stupid. The autopsy, boxer shorts, “twat it,” and the planning scene at the end are all individually funny scenes in a vacuum, but as a whole I think that episode is pretty eh. Way overrated.

    While Series III is often held up as one of the show’s best, and indeed has some great eps and scenes, as a whole I think it’s aged terribly in a way that Series IV hasn’t, and even in a way that Series I and II haven’t either. Maybe it’s when the show’s ambition really started to outpace it’s budget, but I actively cringe during some parts of Series III (like that early shot of Marooned in the cockpit with the gray background, or the sloppy way Lister’s edited into the Hitler footage).

    I’m not really all that fond of M-Corp, but I can’t really put my finger on why.

    When people online say they like Can of Worms, I have no idea what the hell they’re talking about, because that episode is hot garbage, from the very first scene onwards (although hedgehogs in top hats are always welcome).

    I don’t really like Dimension Jump much at all. Some cool ideas and performances, but it’s hard to watch. Rimmer is an ass in a way he usually isn’t, like they play it up way too much for contrast. I don’t think the sparks between him and Ace are earned in those barely two scenes they were together, and Ace just saying at the end where their timelines diverged was anticlimactic.

    Maybe it’s because it’s the very first episode I ever saw, but I actually really, really like Rimmerworld.

    I think the Cat’s been killing it with all his outfits in the Dave era.

    I don’t understand why in all these polls Justice isn’t ranked much higher than it is. That episode is basically perfect.

    I really love Back to Earth. And I know it’s different with no laughter, but it’s a reunion special, not an actual season, and I was so damn glad to see these guys again in a special that harkened back to the shows better days, and all that emotional stuff at the end worked gangbusters. When people put it at the bottom of their lists, part of me gets it, but part of me’s like, you can’t treat it like normal episodes. It’s doing something different, and I super dig it, just on a sentimental level.

    #258471
    Toxteth O-Grady
    Participant

    @RenegadeRob I agree with you about Rimmer. He’s easily my favourite character, but in the Dave era Chris Barrie’s performance is just way too pantomime for the most part.
    It’s the same with the Cat. EVERY SINGLE LINE he screeches it out in a high-pitch. He never used to do this. Remember how he says “good point, well made” after Kryten shoots down one of his implausible suggestions in series 5? It’s humble and pensive. These days he’d just screech something out while grimacing.
    Doug is obviously responsible too, in not wrangling these performances. I think Doug and the cast need to go back and watch the first two series and re-familiarise themselves with how they used to play the characters. As fairly realistic people, as opposed to over-the-top caricatures.
    Strangely, Craig Charles has gone the opposite route, and is way more laid back in his performance. I can see that being a development of the character, though. He’s mellowing with age. But Cat and Rimmer have gotten unrealistic and a little grating.
    Kryten’s doing okay.

    #258475
    si
    Participant

    It’s the same with the Cat. EVERY SINGLE LINE he screeches it out in a high-pitch. He never used to do this.

    That’s been bugging me for a while, and I’ve mentioned it before, fairly recently (might actually be on this thread), but from series VI onwards, he’s just been made ‘the stupid one’. He might still be vain and dress snazzily, but the cool he had in those first few series (1-IV especially) has just evaporated.

    #258480
    Offline
    Member

    Cat’s retarded, what’s to figure out?

    #258486
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Cat’s voice is extremely inconsistent over the entire run of the show, he seems to have given up the high pitched thing entirely in Series 4

    #258493
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Cat’s retarded, what’s to figure out?

    That’s your second strike. I know who you are, but with everything that’s going on and a new episode coming up, I was being lenient. Don’t make me ban you on today of all days.

    #258500
    Offline
    Member

    I never said Danny was, just that Cat seems retarded now.

    #258502
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Off you fuck, then.

    #258513
    By Jove its holmes
    Participant

    the Dwarfers meeting Bill and Ted from “Excellent Adventure” would have been interesting. How would Kryten get along with Rufus, B & T’s mentor?

    #258517
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    “I didn’t call a real person an outdated slur, only a fictional character”

    #258518
    Ridley
    Participant

    They’re gone until the next sock anyway.

    At least it’s reassuring that that one person that shows up to elect themselves G&T’s unpleasant member tends to actually be the same individual each go around.

    #259709
    tombow
    Participant

    BTE needed audience laughter

    #259710
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    BTE needed jokes.

    #259712
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Back to Reality is a very good episode but nowhere near my favorite. It’s a superb piece of television but short on the laughs.

    Last Human is better than Backwards.

    Series VII is actively good and severely underrated, and Nanarchy is ahead of its time and a well-executed mythology episode.

    Back to Earth is lovely. Short on jokes, yes, but a decent reunion special. Ranking it with other episodes is sort of unfair because it’s a reunion special and not meant to be a “normal” story, and it was so great seeing these guys after ten years in a story way more respectful to the franchise than Series VIII, that I’m surprised it doesn’t get more respect.

    Series III is way overrated. For some reason, way more so than Series II or IV, there’s something about III that’s sloppy and doesn’t age very well. The effects, the humor, and even the storytelling (which can be really stream of consciousness) seem sort of loosey-goosey and not in a good way. Series III is often held up as one of the best, but it’s fine. Also, Polymorph, while having some good jokes, is a piece of shit and definitely not a classic.

    Dimension Jump has some cool ideas and execution, but also it’s way overrated. Watching Rimmer be cringier than usual is not fun.

    EDIT: Just realized this was an old thread and I’m repeating myself. Womp womp.

    #259714
    tombow
    Participant

    probably said this on the thread before, but I never really liked Backwards. I just find it a bit boring and I usually skip it if I rewatch S3. I love the concept in the novels though.

    As for the Morgan Freeman universe voice, I thought he should sound northern, like God did in the Better Than Life audiobook.

    #259715
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    It’s a superb piece of television but short on the laughs.

    So is Inquisitor, which has about 5 jokes, 2 of which are rehashes of older jokes.
    I’m exaggerating, obviously, but it struck me just how serious a lot of that episode is last time I watched it.

    I agree with everything else you said, apart from Polymorph.

    #259721

    Backwards, Polymorph and – particularly – The Inquisitor are all light on jokes. It might be why they’re not among my favourite episodes (although I do think they’re all very good).

    Ok, possibly unpopular opinion here: I think Doug should have ignored the fans and VIII should have taken the VII approach further. While I dislike a number of aspects of VII, I think there are some really good plots and character moments. It’s clear that, at this point, Doug wasn’t going to write ‘classic’ Dwarf, but I wish he’d just gone with the comedy-drama sci-fi thing rather than making what feels like a nine year old’s fanfic in VIII. VII is generally worse when it’s trying to be sitcommy (Duct Soup, for example), and that makes it feel like a halfway house between the old version of the show and the more comedy drama tag that is often applied to the series. If Doug couldn’t do trad Dwarf, he should have gone the whole hog with the new direction. GELF naming and language issues aside, I like the way VII expands on VI’s universe, populated by various GELFs, simulants, derelict ships, etc., as it enabled regular guest characters and sets without having dozens of humans featuring (as in VIII and a lot of XI/XII episodes), and made it feel like a fairly convincing universe that I’d like to have explored more. I can imagine a number of my favourite Dave-era stories fitting in with the style, too, like Fathers and Suns (minus the Taiwan Tony plot), The Beginning, Krysis, M-Corp and Skipper.

    So yeah, I think an extension of the VII style, focusing more on exploring the version of the RD universe of that era, with more emphasis on character stuff, I kind of wish we’d had the chance to see that.

    #259722
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Red Dwarf doesn’t need “jokes” (Wilma Flinstone, Norweb etc) to be good.

    Character and conversational humour/ insults/ reveals here and there for the humour with a solid scifi plot is better than shoehorning in ‘Gags’ that are in general, not that funny anyway (Taiwan Tony, Formica, Moose etc) into episodes with a weak plot.

    I don’t know if that’s an unpopular opinion really, but from most Red Dwarf fans on the internet I see now, I think it is.

    “The giant floppy disk is the funniest thing Red Dwarf has ever done” – Twitter

    #259723
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Doug should have ignored the fans and VIII should have taken the VII approach further
    Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes I’ve been thinking this for years

    Backwards is full of gags, isn’t it? It’s just the gags are “thing but backwards” mostly

    The moose gag and the giant floppy disk gag are really funny though

    #259724
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    How do i KEEP getting quotes wrong, now? Have they changed the way it works? I don’t want to edit that, because that’s the second time it’s happened and I am annoyed and confused.

    #259725
    Dave
    Participant

    Backwards, Polymorph and – particularly – The Inquisitor are all light on jokes. It might be why they’re not among my favourite episodes (although I do think they’re all very good).

    I think they’re all very funny episodes in their own way, but the humour often isn’t in simple setup/punchline form. It arises more from the characters and their interactions, and the situations.

    A bit more like the novels, in a way.

    Red Dwarf doesn’t need “jokes” (Wilma Flinstone, Norweb etc) to be good.

    Character and conversational humour/ insults/ reveals here and there for the humour with a solid scifi plot is better than shoehorning in ‘Gags’ that are in general, not that funny anyway

    Yes, this. The richest gags in Red Dwarf are never the ones that could slide easily into any sitcom, they’re the ones that are rooted in character more than anything.

    #259738
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    How do i KEEP getting quotes wrong, now? Have they changed the way it works? I don’t want to edit that, because that’s the second time it’s happened and I am annoyed and confused.

    You’re probably doing something wrong.

    #259744
    Plastic Percy
    Participant

    Series III is way overrated. For some reason, way more so than Series II or IV, there’s something about III that’s sloppy and doesn’t age very well. The effects, the humor, and even the storytelling (which can be really stream of consciousness) seem sort of loosey-goosey and not in a good way. Series III is often held up as one of the best, but it’s fine. Also, Polymorph, while having some good jokes, is a piece of shit and definitely not a classic.

    I agree. Parts of the set – the corridors made of white pallets and the cargo bay full of cardboard boxes – are really disappointing and dull to look at. There’s a weirdness to seeing the lovely new sleeping quarters on the awful old BBC cameras, compared to how it looked from IV onwards. Overall it just feels really dingy and dull to look at.

    Starbug’s cockpit is an absolute shambles of a design early on, with it looking particularly unfinished in Backwards. And I really can’t get past the obviousness of the wire extending from Chris, ready to eject him out of the cockpit roof.

    Kryten in III is the absolute worst mask Bobby Llew has worn. It looks clammy and fleshy, and gives Kryten quite a gaunt face.

    #259745
    si
    Participant

    Kryten in III is the absolute worst mask Bobby Llew has worn.

    It’s also the first.

    and gives Kryten quite a gaunt face.

    It’s also the younger, thinner face of a man in his mid-thirties.

    #259748
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    “Red Dwarf doesn’t need jokes. Today is not the day to find out why it has so many.” -Eleventh Doctor (paraphrased)

    As a fan of Series VII, I obviously agree that doubling down on the VII format for VIII would’ve been preferable. The funny/sad thing is, for brief moments in VIII, some of what was missing in VII can be glimpsed: the Rimmer/Lister dynamic, the audience, and I’ll admit, Mac McDonald is game no matter how bad the episodes got. Much like the prequel/sequel trilogies of Star Wars compared to the original, VII/VIII are like triplicated half-copies of the classic 36 eps, with VII having the structure and pathos and VIII having a zany energy and swagger.

    I also agree that Red Dwarf’s best humor is plot/character-based instead of gag-based (although some gags still hold up obviously). The gags can work but usually when they do it ties into the character involved. The boxer shorts scene (my unpopular opinion of the day) isn’t that funny really because the setup is so contrived to get to that point. As genuinely fun as it is to hear the audience flip out, the groundwork laid to make that scene happen is a stretch, and not really character-based or even plot-based. Contrast that with, say Stasis Leak, where Cat freaks out at the “dog” strangling the woman in the lobby and attacks it. Isolated gag, sure, but it gels with Cat’s character and him being in the past, which is why I’ll take that over a million boxer short gags.

    Another Unpopular Opinion: Duct Soup is genuinely decent. Any episode that’s trying to be a spiritual successor to Marooned is at worst well-intentioned, and I’m surprised it doesn’t get more respect. While I get people not enjoying it, Duct Soup would be a good episode of any other sitcom. That kind of close-quarters bottle episode format is a trope for sure that both sitcoms and dramas do (like 17 People in the West Wing or Cooperative Calligraphy in Community) and while Duct Soup clearly isn’t as awesome as either of those examples, it’s gets at least partial credit from me for at least knowing to aspire to that (as opposed to VIII which aspired to dinosaur shit).

    Yet Another Unpopular Opinion: Justice is the perfect episode of Red Dwarf, and while I see it’s in a lot of people’s Top 20 or so, I’m flabbergasted that it’s not in more peoples’ Top 5 or even Top 10. It doesn’t really put a foot wrong. It’s one of the show’s most solid outings start-to-finish and while it maybe doesn’t have a memorable singular boxer gag to make it distinct, it’s pretty consistently stellar with a solid plot and intriguing sci-fi concepts, embodying the very best of Dwarf.

    One More Unpopular Opinion: While Holoship is one of my favorite Dwarf episodes, it does irk me whenever I watch it that the movie they’re watching at the beginning is so parallel to what happens at the end. Maybe Rimmer’s mentally using it as a template for his actions and even sort-of-quotes it, but the fact that the movie matches his situation exactly is so on the nose that I’m like oof, even though I love the episode overall.

    #259751
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I’m a big fan of Renegade Rob’s opinions, even if I don’t agree with all of them. Those are some real opinions right there.

    My only problem with Justice is that it does the XI/XII thing of doing away with its villain extremely quickly. The simulant is only in it for about three minutes (I’m likely exaggerating). However, everything he does is excellent, and it’s only something I really noticed the last time I watched it, with such criticisms of XI and XII fresh in my mind. A perfect episode would be something like Holoship, for me, or… Tikka to Ride, honestly. Like Inquisitor, I like it for being extremely high concept within the confines of its sitcom roots.

    Holoship being on the nose is the gag, isn’t it? It’s what makes the yucky “I cannot believe I just said that” ending work, complete with the shmaltzy 50s movie “the end” title, or whatever. He absolutely is deliberately invoking the movie, at least at that point.

    #259754

    I like the fact the Simulant is done away with so quickly: he isn’t really the point of the episode, he’s just a fun coda. The same as the curry monster. It’s why I was happy that Asclepius was dealth with in the same way: I’m not big on ‘the crew vs. a monster’ type stories. The best antagonists are ones who reveal a lot about the characters, rather than simply things that exist just to offer a threat. In fact, threat and peril aren’t really why I watch Red Dwarf at all.

    #259756
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    It feels a bit like the Simulant is just something they had to deal with because they did the gag in the intro about thinking it’s Barbara Bellini or whoever. The episode forgets about him, as if the writers had. Maybe Justice would have been better had it focused entirely on the Justice World concept, or focused more on the Simulant. As it stands it’s a bit like the “shit we need to put a monster in this episode or people will think it’s boring” problem that plagues Doctor Who. It’s still a great episode though so maybe either alternative would actually be worse. If I remember right, the stuff deleted from Justice wasn’t particularly good anyway so maybe “more Justice” would be equally unimpressive. DNA monster at least felt like a logical progression of what the DNA machine would do, but you’re right that it is another thing that’s introduced and dealt with very quickly. It’s basically the end to Officer Rimmer with a one-liner and a not-particularly-funny ending scene after it.

    Do people like Lister really pronounce Michigan with a hard CH sound?

    #259759
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Aww thanks. I’m a big fan of your opinion on my opinion. But since this is a thread on unpopular opinions, I’m clearly doing a crummy job.

    The Simulant thing didn’t bother me because it’s good structure. They need to deal with the pod problem, they cross the threshold into the Justice Complex, master it’s Justice Field, then use that to rectify the problem that brought them there in the first place.

    I’m in the US and I’ve never heard anyone pronounce Michigan with a hard CH. I’ve also never heard anyone use the phrase “It’ll be a whole lease of line for both of us.” Lease on life, sure. But lease of line? Why would you take out a lease on a 1-dimensional object? It just isn’t done.

    #259761
    Dave
    Participant

    It feels a bit like the Simulant is just something they had to deal with because they did the gag in the intro about thinking it’s Barbara Bellini or whoever. The episode forgets about him, as if the writers had.

    I always felt like the whole point is that they get sidetracked and the viewer is encouraged to forget about the simulant so that it can be a surprise when he suddenly turns up.

    #259763
    Dax101
    Participant

    I don’t think the simulant was done away with too quickly. we knew in the pod that was set up at the start that was either a killing machine or Barbra Bellini. it turned out to be the killing machine. and then we moved into the Justice field phase where they then had to deal with the killing machine that was after them.

    I think he was on screen for about the right amount really. i don’t really know what else you could have done with him.

    Structurally the only reason why they went to Justice world was to find out who was in the pod safely. but i guess they didn’t realize they would be judged themselves in doing so. then obviously they set up the justice field effect where everything you do comes back to bite you. so it all kinda comes together.

    #259764
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    Do people like Lister really pronounce Michigan with a hard CH sound?

    I’m very much not a person like Lister, but not having heard ‘Michigan’ pronounced until my 20s, before that I thought it had a hard CH. I don’t know whether Lister as a character would have had that reason though (nor Craig Charles as an actor – if he didn’t initially know, plenty of people around him for rehearsals and whilst recording would have known). Maybe a flub – just like I think “a whole lease of line” was – and for whatever reason just wasn’t picked up, or at least not picked up in time to do anything about it.

    #259769
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I’m just going to be serious for a moment and explain my favourite aspect of Stoke Me A Clipper: for once, Lister grows up a little, and plays along, letting Rimmer have his sendoff. He momentarily tosses aside all the animosity, all the jokes, and gives Rimmer a true, heartfelt goodbye. It’s incredibly touching, and one of the most genuine expressions of emotion between the two we’ve had in the show’s entire run. He’s actively nice to Rimmer, for one of only a few times.

    VII is great on the character front, I love how the Lister/Rimmer relationship develops even into Series VIII. In Series VIII, Lister is older, wiser, and more fond of Rimmer, you can tell he’s really relishing being back with his old “buddy”, pulling pranks on him and making him flip his lid again. He’s even willing to help Rimmer by giving him access to Starbug’s files and the positive viruses. Of course, Rimmer then fucks it all up, and Lister gets Rimmer raped. But, uh. Yeah.

    I just love how much Lister is clearly relishing being able to make fun of Rimmer again, like old times
    Imagine it, for him, it pretty much is reliving the past, something most people can never do
    The absolute abandon with which Lister just tells Rimmer the most ridiculous stories and tries to get him to snap
    Genuinely a great character moment, coming from VII where he was so sad to see him go, and missed him so much

    #259771
    Dave
    Participant

    I’m just going to be serious for a moment and explain my favourite aspect of Stoke Me A Clipper: for once, Lister grows up a little, and plays along, letting Rimmer have his sendoff. He momentarily tosses aside all the animosity, all the jokes, and gives Rimmer a true, heartfelt goodbye. It’s incredibly touching, and one of the most genuine expressions of emotion between the two we’ve had in the show’s entire run. He’s actively nice to Rimmer, for one of only a few times.

    I rewatched this episode just yesterday and this stood out for me too. It reminded me a little of the ‘moonlight’ moment from Promised Land.

    If Doug genuinely thought Chris might not ever be returning to the show again, and wanted to write the final ever exchanges between Lister and Rimmer, that episode does it quite well I think. Including the lovely touch of giving Rimmer a post-posthumous honor and making him an officer.

    #259773
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Absolutely, yeah, I agree. I was going to say it’s THE most genuine moment of friendship between Lister and Rimmer in the show, but then I remembered The Promised Land. And possibly Thank for the Memories, too.

    #259774
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I would agree that there’s a lot to like about Duct Soup, the swirling windy/ whooshy watery noises etc stuff is good fun, as is the visual stuff of them being blown around and washed out.

    I just think the writing lets it down when it tries to expand on backstory, it’s very 90’s too, Lister’s bollock naked story is alright but a bit off, might be the performance too, and the “gay fear” that was about and crept into other shows too, can think of examples in Friends and The Simpsons so at least Red Dwarf is in esteemed company, but if I could I would delete the whole Bent Bob shit from existence.

    I can believe that Lister would be claustrophobic, why not? People have claustrophobia? But when you have a character that’s spent years stuck in a) outer space, and b) a small craft in outer space, it’s a bit out of the blue.

    #259775

    Although I don’t like the superhero Ace idea in general, I do agree that Stoke is a lovely episode for Rimmer in general. It’s very flawed, in a VII way, but I’ve warmed to it a lot over the years and, for the most part, definitely enjoy it these days.

    Duct Soup is a wonderful episode for the Cat. Roaring noise, boy is it cramped in here, coming down in the wardrobe… he has plenty of great moments. Not sure anybody else does, though.

    #259776
    Dave
    Participant

    I can believe that Lister would be claustrophobic, why not? People have claustrophobia? But when you have a character that’s spent years stuck in a) outer space, and b) a small craft in outer space, it’s a bit out of the blue.

    Especially given that in the novels he lives in a small luggage locker.

    #259777
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    I agree about Stoke Me a Clipper showing Lister’s maturation and being legitimately touching. It was a very good sendoff overall and the coffin sequence still holds up pretty well even with the subpar VII-era CGI, and I’m glad to see others enjoy it too, as it’s held up as a classic among my circle of friends (in isolation, the Ace opener with the smash cut to the rock theme song is a fuck yeah moment). It’s interesting to think of Lister and Rimmer’s relationship in VIII as Lister relishing in it. I think that’s spot on, but when Rimmer taunts him when he first shows up again, it’s the last thing Lister needs. The scene where Lister explains how much he’s matured to the old Rimmer is one of the few VIII scenes I legitimately like, where you see the glimpse of what could have been if the idea was better-executed.

    Another Unpopular Opinion: When people cite the “first 10 minutes of Legion” as being classic, does that include the peanuts/dancing moose bit? Because while the “red alert” sequence is classic, the changeover stuff before that is only very good and not classic. There. I said it.

    #259854
    Spaceworm Jim
    Participant

    I think my unpopular opinion is that Red Dwarf needs jokes and a studio audience (just not shit jokes or the laughter from the audience too loud in the mix). There, I said it. Phew! This bravery thing is hard work.

    #259861
    bloodteller
    Participant

    my unpopular opinion is the “red alert” stuff isn’t funny at all…i’ve never got why that’s one of the most often mentioned scenes, when there’s so much stuff that’s way way better

    #259874
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    It’s well-delivered, and the idea of having to change the bulb on the alert sign is not only ridiculous, but also indicative of how low-tech and shambolic Starbug is, and it provides a bit of gritty realism to the scenario.

    The red alert gag is one of the most accessible and yet fundamentally “Red Dwarf” gags. It’s a gag you’d only really hear in Red Dwarf, it is VERY Red Dwarf, and it takes little to no setup or explanation of the show to understand. There are other, funnier gags which are 1) longer, 2) require more setup, 3) require greater knowledge of the characters and their situation, 4) just aren’t as snappy, 5) are more generic “gags” that could come from any show, etc, etc. Red Alert is quickfire, easy to digest, encompasses the show, and delivered well, which makes it very clippable, a very easy thing to show your mate, or put in a documentary/clip show, to get people laughing quickly and getting what it’s all about.

    These days I use the opening to Stoke, or explain the Sensational Reverse Brothers bit if I want to get somebody interested. Neither are particularly indicative of the show, but they’re funny and absurd, high concept etc, the kind of thing that would make somebody go “oh that sounds like an interesting, non-typical show.”

    #259875
    Dave
    Participant

    These days I use the opening to Stoke

    Also known as the M6 Junction 15.

    #259876

    One thing I can say in defence of the red alert joke is, to this day, I can still remember the first time I saw it. I don’t remember much of my pre-teen Red Dwarf viewings, but I will always recall laughing so hard at that. It might be overplayed, but as a gag it’s just superb. Brilliantly written, nicely surprising, and perfectly performed.

    #259877
    si
    Participant

    These days I use the opening to Stoke

    Also known as the M6 Junction 15.

    • applauds *
    #259878
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I’m applauding both Dave’s gag and si’s proper use of doublequotes

    #259881
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    I’ve just seen a guy on Twitter ranking all the series/specials of Red Dwarf, and he put Series VIII one ahead of Series V. It takes all sorts.

    #259886
    si
    Participant

    If its the same as I saw, he put The Promised Land bottom, one behind Back To Earth.

    #259887
    Dave
    Participant

    We need a new G&T poll now to see where Promised Land falls.

    #259889
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    You’ll find out on February 15th 2023.

    #259890
    bloodteller
    Participant

    in response to the above about using the “Red Alert” gag to introduce somebody to Red Dwarf, i can honestly say if that was the first Red Dwarf thing i saw, i’d never have watched the show at all. it’s not like i don’t get the joke or anything, i just think it’s really not funny and a particularly poor example to introduce someone to the show.

    when i started watching Red Dwarf with my boyfriend a while ago, we started on The End and that got him pretty into the show. surely that’s a good place to start, the opening of that is a good scene with some jokes and stuff

    #259892
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    I don’t agree with the dislike for the light bulb gag, but I will say that it’s not even the best light fitting based joke in that episode.

    #259893

    You’ll find out on February 15th 2023.

    We might not all live that long. YOU might not live that long. Is it really worth the risk?

    #259896
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I don’t agree with the dislike for the light bulb gag, but I will say that it’s not even the best light fitting based joke in that episode.

    I mostly agree, but the other one is more about the delivery of it than the (rather silly) construction.

    #259897
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    To me the actual “red alert” bulb gag isn’t even as funny as when they first turn on the blue alert and Kryten just sort of points at it. It’s all in service to the characters, with Rimmer insisting on the formalism and Kryten’s bemused pointing at the alert bringing it home. The “red alert” follow-up is just the icing on the cake.

    #259898
    tombow
    Participant

    Well, “it does mean changing the bulb” is one of my all time RD moments. I always chuckle just thinking about it.

    #261200
    Katydid
    Participant

    I like the sex change routine in TPL, and I think the controversy over it was really just it seeming like it was walking on dangerous ground. Every trans friend / sibling I’ve talked to about it or watched it with (so far) agrees with me that none of the jokes are at the expense of trans people and it’s just a cute little scene where Lister and Cat get into a pissing contest over who would be hotter as a woman.

    I can’t argue that you aren’t uncomfortable obviously but I really don’t think there’s anything overtly offensive there.

    I’m not saying it’s a particularly great scene or anything but I got at least a laugh out of the initial suggestion, and liked the idea that Kryten would think this would go over well with either of them.

    #261205
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    The negative/mixed reaction to that scene is I think more about it making you go “Wait, is this offensive/about to get offensive?” rather than making you go “Hey, this is offensive!”.

    The “sex change” terminology and the false equivalency drawn between gaining the ability to give birth and “becoming a woman” are both really old fashioned, surface-level-understanding-of-biology things to say, the kind of things that encompass a TERF’s entire view of gender. So it might well put you on edge that the episode is about to get overtly transphobic, even though it ultimately doesn’t. (Particularly if you remember the “Kryten has no penis, therefore is a woman” nonsesne from Series VIII.)

    Also, every time someone brings up this scene I’m reminded how weird it is for Kryten to suggest that Cat needs to become a woman to give birth when Lister has already given birth as a man in canon.

    #261210
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    I’m obviously glad that trans people you know were ok with the scene, Katydid, but that’s not a universal experience judging by the number of tweets from trans people I saw on the night, who were pretty disappointed and upset.

    Personally, I agree that it falls short of saying anything actually offensive, but the outdated language and questionable levels of understanding, as Flap Jack lays out, are enough to make me rather it wasn’t there. It’s just one of those half-thought-through uncomfortable moments that seem to crop up in latter day Dwarf, adding nothing but a distraction from the much much better stuff elsewhere. Especially in the current climate when transphobia is worryingly on the rise, with its figurehead being a comedy writer who I used to adore before he went actually insane, I just don’t want Dwarf to go anywhere near the topic. Let’s face it, the man who once defined a woman as “anyone who doesn’t have a penis” is not a voice we need to hear from on the matter.

    #261366
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    As soon as Kryten said the words “sex change” my whole body tensed up. When he barked “LET ME FINISH” it felt like Doug saying, “Look, you’re going to be uncomfortable, but please put that discomfort to the side for a minute so we can keep doing the joke.”

    I didn’t like it. It felt awkward, dated, and I honestly wish they hadn’t done it. It took me a while to loosen up for the rest of the show. Easily the most upsetting, disappointing point of an otherwise fine special.

    #261382
    Yaron Ru
    Participant

    I loved the sex change joke as much now as I would have if they had have done it before cancel culture. In fact I just hate cancel culture and it’s entire political and social platform.

    Thankfully the CC didn’t come for Red Dwarf but this joke did stir them up a bit. I’m not saying go out and day nasty things to people but I think people ruining humour because they decided that claiming to be offended by it makes them powerful is stupid and has ruined so many things needlessly.

    I also thought some of the Taiwan Tony stuff was funny, and the fact that some people got bent out of shape calling him racist was funnier. Racism is evil, cruel and bullying. Taiwan Tony was none of that. The line that says he’s a bit Chinesey was the equivalent of hearing an Asian say that an American is a bit Englishy.

    #261383
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Well, that opinion was completely delusional and offensive, but it did definitely fit the remit of being unpopular, so fair play I guess.

    #261385
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    It’s really sad that there are snowflakes out there that can’t bear the thought of their words and actions having consequences.

    #261387
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Ah, I suspected Yaron Ru was a bellend, good to have it confirmed.

    #261388
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    His original screen name was Lawless One, and he was a cunt then too.

    #261391
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    The thing is, I learned to identify a bellend with Yaron Ru, I’m not used the cunt roles of Lawless One.

    #261393

    The thing is, I learned to identify a bellend with Yaron Ru, I’m not used the cunt roles of Lawless One.

    BRAVO!

    #261402
    Yaron Ru
    Participant

    Science is hatespeech, we need to cancel biology immediately. We can’t have anyone else being upset by facts and insulting the people that speak them.

    Apparently it’s now wrong to enjoy Red Dwarf jokes and Little Britain, and to dislike cancel culture, ha, that’s a better joke than anything from VIII.

    #261403
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    I’ve looked back and I don’t see you speaking any facts, just bemoaning ‘cancel culture’ for possibly threatening to not let you laugh at a sex change joke.

    #261404
    Yaron Ru
    Participant

    It’s interesting then that if that’s all that was said, insults were warranted. Insults meant to offend the recipient are used by those that claim to be offended by other people’s opinions, there’s absolutely no irony there, is there?

    I’ve looked back and I don’t see you speaking any facts, just bemoaning ‘cancel culture’ for possibly threatening to not let you laugh at a sex change joke.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN24M2QV

    #261405
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    That cancel culture in this thread in full: one person saying the scene was fine, one person discussing the scene without really giving a personal opinion, two people discussing the scene and concluding they’d rather it wasn’t there.

    #261407
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    It’s interesting then that if that’s all that was said, insults were warranted. Insults meant to offend the recipient are used by those that claim to be offended by other people’s opinions, there’s absolutely no irony there, is there?

    To be absolutely 100% clear and fair, insults are warranted purely because you’re a proven troll.

    #261411
    Yaron Ru
    Participant

    I was talking about cancel culture in general, not in this thread. Maybe you made an assumption and responded accordingly, or maybe you like throwing abuse at people you disagree with, either way, the joke exists, I thought it was funny, and cancel culture sucks and people why are offended by comedy that means no harm or offense need to get off their high horse thinking that they can destroy people and things for saying things that they claim to take offense to.

    It’s interesting then that if that’s all that was said, insults were warranted. Insults meant to offend the recipient are used by those that claim to be offended by other people’s opinions, there’s absolutely no irony there, is there?

    To be absolutely 100% clear and fair, insults are warranted purely because you’re a proven troll.

    #261412
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    So you’re arguing with a strawman?

    #261413
    Yaron Ru
    Participant

    This is the post I meant to quote.
    I can’t seem to edit the post.

    That cancel culture in this thread in full: one person saying the scene was fine, one person discussing the scene without really giving a personal opinion, two people discussing the scene and concluding they’d rather it wasn’t there.

    #261414
    Dave
    Participant

    Sometimes you’re commissioned, you get cancelled, and then you get commissioned again.

    #261416
    Yaron Ru
    Participant

    Switch me on, switch me off… Like some battery operated sex aid.

    #261417
    si
    Participant

    Switch me on, switch me off…

    Switch him off.

    #261418
    Dave
    Participant

    Oh somebody punch him out.

    #261420
    PFML84
    Participant

    I think the Dave era of Dwarf has been highly disappointing. I know people do complain about it but are willing to let things pass or accept certain changes in the show that mean it has to be the way it is, but I just can’t. The show looks more impressive (mostly) on Dave but for me the acting, jokes, some effects, plots and direction of the show to comedy/drama instead of straight comedy have been on a downhill trajectory since Series VIII and it has only on rare occasions managed to climb briefly for me before falling back down again. For a show I absolutely adore, it pains me to see it in this way. I expect everyone to jump on me for saying it, but it’s honestly how I feel. I still keep watching new Dwarf hoping to see something that is funny and reminds me of the glory days and more often than not I come away from it disappointed.

    #261423

    I agree with most of that to an extent – most of the best Dave scripts feel like they’re still a draft from completion, and the performances are a mixed bag – but I wouldn’t say there’s really been a move towards comedy drama since VIII. BtE, definitely, but one of the biggest criticisms XI and XII got here was the almost complete lack of pathos, making both the universe more silly and the general plots and character motivations less dramatic and more comedic. The Promised Land again has some more dramatic elements, but the three main series have felt to me as much ‘straight comedy’ as any of the Rob era episodes.

    #261444
    bloodteller
    Participant

    As someone who’s trans, the sex change joke in The Promised Land didn’t really bother me- for me it was like the Wilma Flinstone conversation in Backwards, where it’s just the characters discussing a hypothetical situation and getting way too into the idea. I can see why it offended people though and I think that’s fine and all, it just personally didn’t upset me really. Finding out the guy who did the music for TPL (Paul Farrer) is a racist and transphobe though was enough to make me not want to watch it ever again in my life though so there’s that

    #261457
    Ridley
    Participant

    Finding out the guy who did the music for TPL (Paul Farrer) is a racist and transphobe though was enough to make me not want to watch it ever again in my life though so there’s that

    Oh, is this why G&T tweeted about needing Goodall back a while ago?

    #261458
    Unrumble
    Participant

    For a show I absolutely adore, it pains me to see it in this way.

    I resent this. I resent you reviving my show in this way.

    #261459
    Hamish
    Participant

    Thankfully the CC didn’t come for Red Dwarf but this joke did stir them up a bit.

    I think you will find Craig Charles has been involved since at least 1987.

    That is obviously what he meant right?

    #261460
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    All of the Kryten costumes are fine.

    #261461
    Yaron Ru
    Participant

    I don’t think this is so much an unpopular opinion as just an opinion, but I think it’s odd how VIII equates Kryten getting naked with Kryten removing his paint and remaining the same shape/build but flesh coloured.

    #261462

    They did it in a III deleted scene where they’re playing strip poker, and it didn’t work well then. I’m not sure the better quality costume in VIII actually makes it much more worthwhile overall, however. Why would have have a flesh coloured interior that’s relatively easily accessible, and why would he decide to paint his entire feet during the prison’s dedicated toenail painting hour (which in itself suggests far too many questions).

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