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  • #261464
    si
    Participant

    and why would he decide to paint his entire feet during the prison’s dedicated toenail painting hour

    To be fair, that’s such a stupid gag that it always makes me smile.

    #261465
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    and why would he decide to paint his entire feet during the prison’s dedicated toenail painting hour

    Painting his foot sportscar red was just his midlife crisis starting to manifest.

    #261976
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I think the Lego Red Dwarf stuff that people try to make happen is crap.

    Soz Bob

    #261977

    I saw a Starbug one recently and it’s really uninspired as it’s just an exercise in how to make spheres out of square green bricks.

    The bunk rooms/sets are ok but for the most part lack any interesting details and are generally quite small.

    A large Red Dwarf itself might be interesting as you’d have all different things jutting out of it, and if you’re really clever, could have little landing bays to put small Starbugs and Blue Midgets, but you’d still ultimately end up with a big red brick at the end of it all.

    #261980
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    It’s not even close to being the correct shade of green either.

    It’s water butt from a garden centre green.

    If we’re having playsets I’d rather people were asking Revell or something.

    The Lego ones, particularly Starbug are too small to be worthwhile. If it was twice the size and self supporting it’d be impressive, but as it is, nah.

    The blue midget one is more impressive because it stands on its own legs, but because of the scale it looks like it could double as ED 209 or an AT-ST aswell as Blue Midget.

    I’ve seen a large Red Dwarf, the cut down pencil and that was big enough that it read properly, but it’s not doable for a kit. It was about 3-4 foot long and probably cost a couple of grand in Lego.

    #261983
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Remember when there was a Red Dwarf level in Lego Dimensions, but instead of getting its own dedicated story or chracters, it was just a small secret area buried in a Fantastic Beasts story pack?

    So not only playing second fiddle to a fantasy series written by a transphobe, but playing second fiddle to a sub-par spin-off of a fantasy series written by a transphobe. The ultimate insult.

    #261988
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    I think the Lego Red Dwarf stuff that people try to make happen is crap.

    I think I’d be better inclined towards it all if it didn’t take up every other post on my #reddwarf Twitter search and all the Dwarfy Facebook groups whenever they’re pushing for votes. And the thing is, for better or worse, even if it gets the requisite number of votes to trigger it being put to the panel, it’s never going to happen. There is not a chance in hell that Red Dwarf is a well known or profitable enough brand to get the full Lego treatment.

    #261991
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    UKTV/GNP should just make their own off-Brand Red Dwarf toy construction sets.

    Smego

    OK, that name’s not exactly inspired, but it’s a decent starting point.

    #261997
    tombow
    Participant

    such a stupid waste of time. Lego Bill n’ Ted mall or Fraiser Crane Apartment/Studio is where it’s at

    #262002
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I think the Lego Red Dwarf stuff that people try to make happen is crap.

    I think I’d be better inclined towards it all if it didn’t take up every other post on my #reddwarf Twitter search and all the Dwarfy Facebook groups whenever they’re pushing for votes. And the thing is, for better or worse, even if it gets the requisite number of votes to trigger it being put to the panel, it’s never going to happen. There is not a chance in hell that Red Dwarf is a well known or profitable enough brand to get the full Lego treatment.

    It’s everywhere. Same few pictures every couple of weeks, still not bothered.

    I don’t get why people are so keen on it, I know Red Dwarf isn’t Channel 4 News or Broadchurch or anything, but I still don’t think Lego or funko bastard pops fit at all.

    I want a 1:48 scale resin Starbug or a remote control Skutter that looks nice on a shelf, not some fat headed blob people and a bit of Lego.

    /rant

    #262003
    Dax101
    Participant

    The Promised Land again has some more dramatic elements, but the three main series have felt to me as much ‘straight comedy’ as any of the Rob era episodes.

    The Co-Rob era wasnt afraid to balance out comedy, sci-fi, pathos and dramtic elements. the Dave era is definitely trying to be more funny more than anything else. there seems to be a comedy payoff to almost everything that happens in the Dave Era. its not quite brave enough to let pathos just have its moment.

    And when we do get pathos and dramatic elements in The Promise Land, it feels more like its there because its a tv film that needs to be something abit different. and people gave praise to the Moonlight pathos almost like Red Dwarf hasn’t had these elements before when really its had many like this. just not in a long time.

    #262326
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    I think The Promised Land would’ve worked better as a single-camera, no studio audience affair, to be honest.

    I also think that, as good as the sun/moonlight scene was, the dialogue was in dire need of another pass. Solid idea, wonky dialogue.

    #262329
    Sofajockey
    Participant

    The end of Back to Earth is the only genuinely moving moment in Red Dwarf history. I proper welled up.

    #262336
    tombow
    Participant

    what about this?

    That episode, “Terrorform,” which ends with the crew facing the monster of Rimmer’s self-loathing, made me cry so hard as a teenager that I refused to watch it again for nearly 20 years. It remains the purest expression of my psyche available on modern TV.)

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/3da7a9/struggling-to-grow-older-with-my-favorite-childhood-sci-fi-show-red-dwarf

    #262338
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Interesting article. The stuff about the characters being in stasis is broadly true and my big problem with a lot of the new episodes is that they don’t really embrace the ages of the actors/characters, because if you’re going to make new Red Dwarf, don’t just give us old Red Dwarf reheated.

    But to say that the show doesn’t *occasionally* do that is untrue. I love the stuff about Lister turning 50 in M-Corp for much the same reason that I detested Lister’s claiming that Kochanski is 30 and still moping about her in Entangled. One is the the show embracing the ages of the cast, the other is the show desperately trying to pretend things are how they used to be.

    Likewise, while Cat needing glasses in Mechocracy clearly wasn’t substantial enough to justify more than a few lines, it’s preferable to the bits in X, XI and XII where Danny does S1,S2 screeches and twirls.

    #262340

    Yeah, you don’t have to fundamentally change the characters to acknowledge the fact they’ve aged.

    #262366
    Dax101
    Participant

    I think its best not to acknowledge the ages of the characters. mostly because they need the audience to feel there is still life in this. still youth and energy and that the characters can still go on adventures and face threats ect ect. but the moment you start acknowledging the character’s ages is the moment the audience starts saying yikes they are getting old or this show has been going too long.

    I think if you can make the audience forget the casts getting older. its better for the show.

    Although the Cat only needed glasses because Doug needed to find an excuse for the Cat would help rimmer. which would be very out of character if it wasn’t for blackmail.

    #262385
    si
    Participant

    The Promised Land directly referenced the characters’ ages, and it was the best Dwarf in years.

    #262386

    Yeah I’ve no problem with the ages thing and it being mentioned. There’s a wealthy of comedy and story to be pulled from these guys being old now. Especially Lister who has lived “alone” on Red Dwarf longer than he was alive prior to the accident.

    They’ve all grown as characters too in one way or another so it’d be daft to ignore the fact they’ve grown in age too.

    #262389
    Dave
    Participant

    Yep, completely agree. Not only is it more honest to acknowledge that none of these characters are in their twenties any more, but it also opens up ideas that wouldn’t have been possible for the show to effectively handle in the past.

    Episodes like Krysis or Fathers and Suns wouldn’t have worked the same with a young cast, and episodes like Skipper and Promised Land have got a lot of mileage out of these characters having long relationships that are different and more complex than in the early days.

    #262391
    Dax101
    Participant

    Its abit like the OT Star trek movies. After wrath of Khan they stopped mentioning how the characters were getting older. And i think thats because it starts to get sad after a while. Especially if you want to keep making more.

    #262392

    There’s just a balance to strike isn’t there. Don’t acknowledge it at all and it’s a bit weird, but take it too far and have Lister with a Zimmer frame and Cat complaining about his prostate and it’s too much.

    #262393
    Dave
    Participant

    He will never need a Zimmer.

    #262394

    Yeah, I don’t think anybody’s asking for Last of the Summer Wine in space, but using their age and the length of their time together to explore particular character ideas and plots – once in a while – is very worthwhile.

    #262457
    Hamish
    Participant

    ike the OT Star trek movies. After wrath of Khan they stopped mentioning how the characters were getting older. And i think thats because it starts to get sad after a while. Especially if you want to keep making more.

    “Is it possible, that we two, you and I, have grown so old, and so inflexible, that we have outlived our usefulness?”
    – Spock to Kirk, Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country

    #262458
    Dax101
    Participant

    ike the OT Star trek movies. After wrath of Khan they stopped mentioning how the characters were getting older. And i think thats because it starts to get sad after a while. Especially if you want to keep making more.

    “Is it possible, that we two, you and I, have grown so old, and so inflexible, that we have outlived our usefulness?”
    – Spock to Kirk, Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country

    I knew someone would bring up VI. but that was planned as their last movie. it was a send-off movie, so it made sense to acknowledge the longevity. but when they didn’t know when it was gonna stop, basically III-V. They didn’t mention it, because they wanted to keep them feeling as youthful as possible even though they were around middle age.

    Infact Kirk apparently needed glasses in Wrath of Khan which he never needed again after. he sold them in Star Trek 4. i guess he got laser surgery between movies.

    #262459
    Hamish
    Participant

    Honestly I think the TNG films are worse offenders when it comes to not coming to terms with the age of the cast. Or their plot lines in subsequent shows.

    As some have pointed out before, it is rather disrespectful to the new tactical officer on the Enterprise-E that Worf can come and take his old station back whenever he pleases.

    #262460

    As some have pointed out before, it is rather disrespectful to the new tactical officer on the Enterprise-E that Worf can come and take his old station back whenever he pleases.

    Well, in First Contact they are literally in the middle of a battle against their greatest enemy, and Worf is a very experienced tactical office, it would be criminal to have him doing anything else in that situation.

    He is also a high ranking officer, potentially also out ranking whoever the tactical office is, so there could be a precedent there too.

    After that though, in the subsequent films, they do have to crow bar him in a little.

    #262471
    evilmorwen
    Participant

    The Motion Picture was the big time-passing-denier in the Star Trek movies, mind – it was specifically set just a couple of years after the original run ended even though it had been a decade in real life, and then Meyer’s Wrath of Khan, which was made just a short time afterwards makes a big fuss about actually acknowledging the passage of time. The middle films (directed by the cast) then are either about restoring the status quo or (with V) playing in it. VI is Meyer again and goes back to the themes he’d been doing in II.

    When The Final Frontier came out, Shatner was 58, which is wild. That’s how old Tom Cruise is this year, and only two years older than Craig.

    #262493
    si
    Participant

    Don’t give me this Star Trek crap, it’s too early in the morning.

    #262538
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Oh no, a stasis leak in the “Star Trek Crap” G&T forum thread.

    #262539
    si
    Participant

    Fuck that, no more stasis leak gags for me.

    #262540
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    T h
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    #262541
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Damn. My hot take on the current state of Star Trek disintegrated when I brought it into this thread.

    #262693
    Katydid
    Participant

    Back to Earth shouldn’t be counted as separate episodes in the next big poll. Nobody watches it that way and all it does is hurt its position by forcing its weakest parts to stand on their own. I literally haven’t rewatched BtE as three episodes since the DVD came out except to hear the cast commentary.

    #262694
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    Back to Earth shouldn’t be counted as separate episodes in the next big poll. Nobody watches it that way and all it does is hurt its position by forcing its weakest parts to stand on their own. I literally haven’t rewatched BtE as three episodes since the DVD came out except to hear the cast commentary.

    Even when I ripped it from the DVD, the 3 episodes with the cast commentary are one big file! (But with credits at the correct points between eps, which is a bit jarring.)

    #262695

    Even when I ripped it from the DVD, the 3 episodes with the cast commentary are one big file! (But with credits at the correct points between eps, which is a bit jarring.)

    I did a big re-rip of all my Red Dwarf (and other DVDs) recently and sooo many of them have episodes 1 to 6 as separate files, and then another file for ALL files for when you click Play All. Rather than DVD software stitching together the episodes from markers or something, every DVD that has a play all feature it seems just as 1 big file for “All”

    But I agree with KT, whilst those episodes will always be counted separately so anyone that gives a shit can say there are 74 rather than 72 episodes of Red Dwarf, when considering BTE for a poll it should be counted as one whole thing.

    Whilst I can see that leading to an argument of counting Back in the Red and Pete as wholes also, that’s silly and we all know it.

    #262696
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    I did a big re-rip of all my Red Dwarf (and other DVDs) recently and sooo many of them have episodes 1 to 6 as separate files, and then another file for ALL files for when you click Play All. Rather than DVD software stitching together the episodes from markers or something, every DVD that has a play all feature it seems just as 1 big file for “All”

    But I agree with KT, whilst those episodes will always be counted separately so anyone that gives a shit can say there are 74 rather than 72 episodes of Red Dwarf, when considering BTE for a poll it should be counted as one whole thing.

    Whilst I can see that leading to an argument of counting Back in the Red and Pete as wholes also, that’s silly and we all know it.

    The Bodysnatcher set is very odd – it has blocks of some episodes without commentary, and the ones with commentary as separate files, and then the ones with Text Track in other blocks. So not quite separate episodes but also not the entire series in one as it appears to be in a normal disc player. I haven’t finished going through them to work out exactly what’s what yet though; I do know that in series II I’ve got episodes 3-6 in one block but series III there are 2 together at most. [Ideally I’d like to make the text track and commentaries as options for the episodes with only subtitles so I don’t need 3 copies of the files, but by the time I’ve done that I may as well have just watched and listened to everything 3 times!]

    The Brittas Empire, on the other hand, had each episode separately which is what you’d expect (from discs which do have a Play All option).

    Agreed. I actually started typing why BTE shouldn’t be treated like BITR and Pete but found the points didn’t really stand up … so I think I’ll have to settle for ‘it’s a weird blip in the ouevre that is best tolerated as one single feature-length episode’!

    #262697
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Pete shouldn’t be counted as separate episodes in the next big poll. Nobody watches it that way* and all it does is allow Part One to undeservedly rise to the rank of second worst episode.

    * at all.

    #262698
    Dave
    Participant

    Call me a bluff old traditionalist if you like, but I’m fine with treating individual episodes as individual episodes.

    (Given that that’s how most people who saw it experienced it, with DVD buyers representing only a small fraction of the total audience.)

    #262701
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    Yeah, counting multi-part episodes as one will never happen in any poll we run. We are slavishly devoted to “as broadcast” being sacrosanct. Besides which, in each and every Red Dwarf example, the different parts of each story differ in quality. IMO: BITR Part 1 is alright by VIII standards, Part 2 is meh, Part 3 is abysmal. Pete 1 is average, Pete 2 is one of the worst things ever made anywhere. I’ll admit I find it hard to separate BTE Parts 2&3, but they’re both vastly superior to the plodding Part 1. I certainly consider each part separately when doing my rankings, and wouldn’t lump each part of a story together by default.

    But JUST FOR FUN, here’s how the bottom of the Pearl Poll would have looked if we took an average of the multi-parters’ scores instead of treating them individually:

    So ACTUALLY, counting BTE as one would harm the majority of it overall. Two thirds of it would be overtaken by Beyond A Joke in relative terms.

    #262706
    Dave
    Participant

    On the other hand, at least it puts Timewave where it should be.

    #262708

    I’ve only watched BTE episodically twice: on broadcast, and listening to the cast commentary. So it’s a bit of a pain for me when it comes to the polls and my placing is based on vague guesswork, which is probably true of a lot of people. So I’d personally go for using it as one episode.
    That said, I understand and respect the ‘as broadcast’ rule, and it fits in well with G&T’s general approach.

    #262713
    clem
    Participant

    One of the best things in BTE Part 1 is a face Rimmer pulls when Cat’s telling him about being attacked by the squid, and that shot isn’t in the director’s cut.

    On the other hand, at least it puts Timewave where it should be.

    Nearly where it should be.

    #262714
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I would say that Back to Earth Part 2, at least, is far better than Part 3. That may be like saying the middle of a movie is much better than the end…but that’s a perfectly valid criticism for lots of movies.

    #262715
    Hamish
    Participant

    One of the best things in BTE Part 1 is a face Rimmer pulls when Cat’s telling him about being attacked by the squid, and that shot isn’t in the director’s cut.

    I am still annoyed by a lot of the cuts made to Part One in the Director’s Cut compared to broadcast and never watch it because of that.

    Call me a masochist if you like.

    #262716
    Dax101
    Participant

    I don’t miss the shot of them freezing for the ad break. what even was that? how did that make it to air?

    #262732
    tombow
    Participant

    someone on imdb, when BTE was airing, said they emailed Norm Lovett to ask if he saw it, and he supposedly replied – “I disliked it on a number of levels and am glad I wasn’t involved”.

    #262739
    Dave
    Participant

    In fairness, that could have been anyone.

    #262741
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    Yeah, counting multi-part episodes as one will never happen in any poll we run. We are slavishly devoted to “as broadcast” being sacrosanct.

    Ah, makes sense.

    #262833
    Katydid
    Participant

    In terms of model-related VFX, The Beginning looks better than anything in Series XI and XII to an almost embarrassing degree. All the best model shots I can think of in those series are combinations of models and CG elements, i.e. Siliconia’s abduction scene.

    XI / XII felt like people didn’t know how to film models and were just guessing.
    The extreme overuse of the same model sequences and the sheer amount of totally digital shots constructed out of 2D stills really suggests they were lacking in decent, usable model shots to draw from.

    Twentica violently shifts from looking good and looking pathetically cheap because of the way they filled out the episode with those paper cutout Starbug shots. There’s probably more of those than genuine shots in that episode in particular. The big crash would look fucking great if it wasn’t half-constructed out of Terry Gilliam animations.

    #262834
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    Another unpopular opinion: As someone who’s enjoyed multiple versions of Pride and Prejudice, the AR sequence in Beyond a Joke still cracks me up, even if the episode falls off in quality after that. But even though it’s rightly placed low on everyone’s rankings, I think there are still a couple things to enjoy. Cat’s reaction when Kryten’s head explodes and bits fall onto the table is pretty fantastic and continues to be fantastic even after having seen it in the VII intro montage a bazillion times. And maybe it’s just me, but I also sort of enjoy the “cartoonivore” line, stupid as it is, and Lister saying “you smell nice” under the tarp and Cat replying “thanks!” And then Cat speaking English during the haggling with the Simulant (which is otherwise a dumb concept because he deals with Gelfs all the time, you can’t bullshit your way through that with fake Gelf-speak). So yeah, I guess my unpopular opinion is that, due mostly to some okay Cat bits, I might place Beyond a Joke… (*looks around nervously*) one rank higher than the average.

    #262844
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    My favourite bit of dialogue in Beyond a Joke is the choking noise one of the Bennett sisters makes when Kryten murders her with a blow-pipe.

    #262853
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    The shots of especially Red Dwarf itself in Series X are just a lot more visually interesting and creative than anything in XI onwards. Fathers & Suns is a particular standout for me. I know they are a little bit ropey and shaky due to not being done motion control, but they just feel so much more like people genuinely trying, while XI onwards feels a bit like just getting it done. The other shots in XI and XII are a real mixed bag of good and bad, all of the CGI stuff looks great but unfortunately particularly some of the Starbug model stuff just looks incredibly spotty, and, like KT said, as if the people working on it were just guessing. I think we’re ready for CGI to be used for at least Starbug. Perhaps the Dwarf itself would be too ambitious.

    Kryten’s head exploding because lister asked for some tomato sauce is such a genuinely classic moment, to me. My favourite part is when it happens again. I think the fact that you can see the dummy Kryten head for far too long before it cuts to the explosion makes it funnier, too. And it opened my young mind up to the reality of how that kind of shot is done, you can see a dummy Greedo for a couple of frames in Star Wars too. It’s my phone background.

    #262953
    Katydid
    Participant

    I think the fact that you can see the dummy Kryten head for far too long before it cuts to the explosion makes it funnier, too.

    I can’t decide if I fucking hate this or love it. I can’t imagine it’s unintentional on account of the fact that I’ve gone into my expensive visual effects studio with that scene and worked out that you can easily remove the frames of the dummy head and make the explosion basically seamless.

    Then I added about three more explosions and some bluescreen skutters whizzing by, converted the mono audio to 5.1, and 3D motion tracked a fedora onto Kryten, because I really need to justify the expense of that software license.

    #262954
    evilmorwen
    Participant

    The fact that that dodgy head explosion is in the opening credits montage doesn’t help, I think. By the time you see it for real you’ve seen it how many times?

    #262965
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Six times. But I’ve seen most episodes of classic Dwarf in excess of 30 times and they’re still funny.

    #262976
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    I never see Psirens high up on many lists and it doesn’t seem to get talked about that much since I guess it’s not like staggeringly great or stupid so it falls through a lot of cracks by just being decent.

    And that’s fair enough. But whenever I revisit it, I’m always impressed by how well it serves its role as a soft reboot episode. As someone who studies story structure a lot, when a show wants to readjust and reset a bit, having a premiere that balances overarching plot and episode of the week is tricky, and Psirens deserves props for executing that well (whether or not you agree with the actual changing of setting and tone).

    The show’s always been well structured (give or take Series VIII), but devoting the first act to reestablishing the characters and establishing a new status quo, and then getting down to business and hitting the ground running for the next two acts, it’s just well done.

    So, yeah, I think my unpopular opinion is that Psirens is a little underrated or at least falls through the cracks of popular opinion in a way that it shouldn’t, though maybe I’ve misread popular opinion on this, which would then make my take on the popular opinion of Psirens my unpopular opinion.

    #262979
    Hamish
    Participant

    Again, that is kind of how I feel about Cured. In terms of competent structure it excels no matter what you think of the actual ideas or jokes. At least for the messy production of the Dave era.

    #262980
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Psirens is good but ever since I was young I thought it was just a bit throwaway really, a bit “oh it’s like Polymorph”. And the soft reboot thing is like, alright cool, but I don’t need a soft reboot, I just watched all of Series IV-V earlier today, I know all this stuff. It’s full of good stuff, but its wonky structure and retreading of old ground means it can only ever be in the middle for me. Maybe it’s better for a new viewer or to re-introduce somebody who hasn’t seen it for a while, but that’s not me.

    Hypocritically, I really enjoyed Doctor Who’s The Pilot for the same reasons you like Psirens – it introduces new viewers to the show but also reminds you of everything you love about it.

    Never thought about Cured in those terms. Given that Twentica was supposed to be the first episode anyway I never would have thought about Cured even trying to do that. Cured does have a really good structure, now you mention it.

    #262982
    Renegade Rob
    Participant

    The Pilot was weird because it was Moffat and Capaldi’s third and last season, so they could’ve just doubled down on what was already established, like a trilogy. Even with a new companion it didn’t need a reboot, especially since there was about to be a creative overhaul with a new Doctor. It always struck me as weird when they’re like, oh it’s a reboot, because did anyone ask for that?

    I guess no one asked for the Series VI reboot either, but one could see how it was headed that way with Kryten and Holly fighting for the exposition role and it becoming more of an action adventure each week. Hell, Series V has them starting out on Starbug half the time anyway for no particular reason. Always kind of thought it was interesting how Series I through VI was a gradient of 100% Red Dwarf/Bunkroom, 0% Starbug/New Locations in Series I to 0% Red Dwarf/Bunkroom to 100% Starbug/New Locations, with II-V being an almost perfect gradient from I to VI. Cutting the Red Dwarf cord completely for Series VI sort of made sense even if I preferred the earlier series.

    #262984
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    It’s worth noting that Doctor Who is absolutely full of soft reboots, it’s just The Pilot was the one where they decided to make it incredibly obvious, and even market it as such – possibly because some people took issue with the continuity-laden, Clara-heavy Series’ 8 and 9 (I didn’t).

    Smith and Jones is a soft reboot, Partners in Crime is a soft reboot. Eleventh Hour is a very obvious soft reboot. Deep Breath is a soft reboot. They take the “seeing through the eyes of the new companion” thing and as they introduce elements of the Doctor’s world to the companion, so do they re-introduce those elements to the audience.

    It is a pretty smooth transition from I-VI, although I’m sure II-III was a lot more jarring at the time than it appears now. But the fact that it’s such a smooth transition makes the re-introduction of everything somewhat more redundant. The Pilot is “forget all that continuity nonsense for now, forget Clara, here’s a few episodes of good old Doctor Who.” Psirens is “here’s things you know already, honestly.”

    #262985
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    I love Psirens.

    It’s got so much going for it, it’s one of the most visually impressive episodes ever made.

    Got some classic gags.

    Actual peril and good villain.

    Quality guest star in Jenny Agutter, which is the equivalent of Dave Dwarf getting Kate Winslet or something.

    Up near the top of my list, Anita Dobson and Clare Grogan don’t even do it that much damage haha

    #262986
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I had no idea Jenny Agutter was famous.

    The strangest thing about Clare Grogan’s appearance is knowing that just nine episodes later, she’ll be somebody else. Given that VII and VI are so similar in setting (mainly Starbug), she pops out rather anachronistically whenever I watch.

    I like Kryten as a cube.

    #262987
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    The fun thing about Red Dwarf is that describing something as “a middling episode of Red Dwarf” is essentially extremely high praise, compared to basically anything else.

    #262989
    Dave
    Participant

    The strangest thing about Clare Grogan’s appearance is knowing that just nine episodes later, she’ll be somebody else. Given that VII and VI are so similar in setting (mainly Starbug), she pops out rather anachronistically whenever I watch.

    Yes, I’ve always felt this. In the context of the whole run it’s really odd for her to pop up again so late, after such a big gap, and in such a short cameo, only for KK to return in such a different and more prominent way so soon after.

    #262990
    Hamish
    Participant

    Yes, I’ve always felt this. In the context of the whole run it’s really odd for her to pop up again so late, after such a big gap, and in such a short cameo, only for KK to return in such a different and more prominent way so soon after.

    Canonically, yes, but of course from a production standpoint the distance from Clare to Chloë was not much shorter than the distance from Clare’s last appearance in Stasis Leak to Psirens.

    #262991
    Dave
    Participant

    That’s true if you think of distance in terms of years, I suppose – but not in terms of the feel of the show (there was a massive evolution in all sorts of ways between Grogan’s last appearance in Stasis Leak and her showing up in Psirens – but not so much between Psirens and Ouroboros).

    In general though, you’re right that it’s easy to forget how compressed those first six series were in terms of production time compared to everything that came after.

    #262992

    Bring back any crew member post series II feels really odd doesn’t it (until you hit VIII of course). From III onwards they sort of cleanly break with everything that came before, and move forward, so for Claire’s Kochanski to suddenly have a cameo 4 series later after no flash backs or what not can feel a little jarring. Especially, as Ben says, only a few episodes later the character is back played by someone else anyway even if the the gaps between character appears are similar in terms of actual Earth years.

    #263002
    clem
    Participant

    Psirens is an odd one for me because I read the script in Primordial Soup before I saw the episode. That would have been the case for quite a few people because the book came out before the episode originally aired, but for me it was because Psirens was missing from the ’94 repeat run, which was when I became a fan. Thinking about it, I must have seen the Psirens smeg ups before I saw the episode as well, as Smeg Ups came out before the VI videos. Anyway, I don’t remember being disappointed when I eventually saw it but maybe I built it up too much as this fabled “lost” episode because it’s never been a favourite either and feels less familiar than the rest of the Grant Naylor era. Time for a reappraisal.

    #263003
    evilmorwen
    Participant

    and like, they also recast Kochanski with Suzanne Rhatigan a couple of years before that anyway (that’s what the credits say: don’t @ me)

    did they actually try and book Claire for series 7? i mean, i know some people have issues with her performance but like, also, she didn’t really have an actual part. todhunter got more lines than her in “The End”, and she’s great in “Balance of Power”.

    #263005
    evilmorwen
    Participant

    yeah Psirens was a weird one – as i recall the script came out /ages/ before the first broadcast. i think it was the first television script i’d ever read (well, i mean, i guess i’d have read the other five in the book first); so i found it quite disappointing? and then that sort of soured the episode.

    it seems mad now how compressed that all was. i know the first one I watched was the original broadcast of “Holoship” in February 1992; and then by Red Dwarf VI i’d acquired basically all media it was possible to obtain at that point (the novels, the smegazines as they came out, Soup, i guess taping repeat runs, and the never-to-be-repeated series 1 tapes). by September 1993 i’m writing fanfiction, drawing fan art, and taping the Gunmen version of the theme tune (pictured in my icon there). that all occurred in 18 months! we hadn’t even got a video player at the start of it.

    #263018
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    I actually like the long, remastered version of the ship. I don’t prefer it, and it’s established throughout I-VI (and VII? Can’t remember if we see any picture of the ship at all) that Red Dwarf *is* a short, squat ship so it would be a bit stupid to try to change it, but I think as a design and model it’s actually pretty good. I like some of the shots of it, especially all the lights. It was just designed at the wrong time (and in the wrong place, ending up too long for motion control).

    If it were the original Red Dwarf instead of having been foisted upon the programme as a replacement, I don’t think anyone would have an issue with it. If the model had still been built too long for motion control, that would likely have been dealt with and absorbed into the show’s history, just like everything else that went wrong and had to be accommodated/worked around in those early years and still gave us what we see as classic Red Dwarf.

    #263021
    Dave
    Participant

    That movie test shot makes it look pretty good I think.

    I think the primitive CGI of VIII and Remastered was a big part of the problem people had with it.

    #263023
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Yeah it’s a good ship, I mean, it’s a BBC VFX/ Model Unit design so it’s quality. Was it Rocky?

    It’s just too slick for a Red Dwarf, that’s the issue.

    Series VIII at least tried to explain that with its “to original spec” retcon, when it just turned up in Remastered it was just too big a departure and didn’t match the material.

    #263028

    You get a brief shot of the original model at the end of Nanarchy, so yes, it’s still the correct version up to the end of VII.

    The movie test shot does look bloody excellent, but as said, it still feels a bit too slick. The idea of it just being a block, something put together without any thought for aesthetic, is what gives it its identifiable look, and fits in really well with everything on the inside.

    The ‘original spec’ aspect of VIII always seemed pretty desperate, given that the entire shape and size of the ship has changed so utterly radically that it’s barely recognisable as the same thing. I think the use of the pencil ship in VIII was a huge mistake. It’s perfectly fine in Remastered, it fits the rest of the shit updates there, but it shouldn’t have been in VIII.

    #263029
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    The original and as it’s described in the books, it seems like an inside out moon. In my head the rock isn’t an asteroid that collided, it’s what they captured and hollowed out to provide the materials to make the rest of the ship and the untouched lump at the bottom is what provides the mass to keep some gravity pointing in the right direction.

    So it should be cavernous and all over the place, no uniformity whatsoever.

    The redesign is more like what would actually occur if humans wanted to build a 5 mile long ship, it’d be modular, but it’s not as interesting.

    #263030
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    I think as a design it looks really nice and makes sense narratively for VIII, it’s just the CGI is really rather poor and the shade of red they choose is nightmarishly ugly.

    Putting it in Remastered does not make one lick of sense, because VIII establishes that the ship looks different because it’s been changed to its original design… if Remastered went all the way to VIII, they’d have to change the ship again or else that line wouldn’t make any sense.

    #263031
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    I think as a design it looks really nice and makes sense narratively for VIII, it’s just the CGI is really rather poor and the shade of red they choose is nightmarishly ugly.

    Putting it in Remastered does not make one lick of sense, because VIII establishes that the ship looks different because it’s been changed to its original design… if Remastered went all the way to VIII, they’d have to change the ship again or else that line wouldn’t make any sense.

    They took out lines and changed scene orders in Remastered, so if it had gone to all the way they would likely have just taken the pertinent lines out.

    Absolutely agree about the CGI. I would love to see a modern, sympathetic remastering, making use of infinitely better CGI and reining in the excessive changes. [Just out of curiosity mind you, not as a replacement!] I really like the clearer audio and some of the sound effects such as the hum of the ship. It’s just a shame they went too far with so many of the changes.

    #263060

    if Remastered went all the way to VIII, they’d have to change the ship again or else that line wouldn’t make any sense.

    Why? The line is “We now have a quark-level matter/anti-matter generator, ship-wide bio-organic computer networking, and a karaoke bar on C-deck.” There’s no actual reference to the shape of the ship changing, some some interior things. If it changed as dramatically as the models suggest, everybody would get lost because the dimensions of the ship are totally different.

    #263061

    You’re forgetting the line prior to that

    “What’s this rumour that we’re three million light years into Deep Space,
    and Red Dwarf’s changed shape?”

    #263063
    clem
    Participant

    Does anyone mention the length of the ship in the first three series? I can only think of Cat in DNA saying it’s five miles long. If they’d Remastered IV and left that line in, that would mean the Remastered ship was actually a lot smaller than the original, given its proportions relative to the length.

    #263064
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    The only early reference to the size of the ship I can think of is in Future Echoes when Holly says it’s the size of a city.

    #263065

    You’re forgetting the line prior to that

    Whoops.

    #263068
    evilmorwen
    Participant

    at what point does Red Dwarf definitely become a ship designed for interstellar travel? to begin with it’s definitely supposed to be a hard science fiction slow-moving hulk that goes between moons and planets in the solar system, but by later series they’re jetting between planets that are surely not all just within a few AUs of where they started.

    i wrote a whole bunch of text looking at the various incidents of contact with derelicts and research stations and such, it’s just the sheer /number/ of them that’s the problem. i wonder if in fact they never left the solar system – i mean, why would Holly do that? is that the underlying gag of Garbage World, that never really paid off in the book, that they /are/ in the right place, it’s just that Earth’s gone now.

    #263069
    evilmorwen
    Participant

    at what point does Red Dwarf definitely become a ship designed for interstellar travel? to begin with it’s definitely supposed to be a hard science fiction slow-moving hulk that goes between moons and planets in the solar system (“The End” and “Future Echoes” prove that), but by later series they’re jetting between planets that are surely not all just within a few AUs of where they started.

    i wrote a whole bunch of text looking at the various incidents of contact with derelicts and research stations and such but there’s not really a smoking gun, it’s just the sheer /number/ of them that’s the problem. i wonder if in fact they never left the solar system – i mean, why would Holly do that? is that the underlying gag of Garbage World, that never really paid off in the book, that they /are/ in the right place, it’s just that Earth’s gone now.

    #263070
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Speaking of shades and red and stuff, the Dave era ship is the wrong shade of red, and Starbug is the wrong shade of Green and too glossy and reflective now, both of which make the show uglier than it needs to be. Starbug also looks tiny these days, and some of the model work is shall we say less than stellar.

    #263071

    at what point does Red Dwarf definitely become a ship designed for interstellar travel?

    From the start, surely? When talking about stasis in The End, Todhunter asks if Lister if he’s never travelled interstellar, which is then expanded on in Infinity, by stating stasis was designed for interstellar travel, but then after discovering it was a waste of time, the existing stasis booths just got used for punishment.

    #263072
    evilmorwen
    Participant

    let’s pretend i wrote “faster-than-light” there.

    #263076
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    Funny how casually Todhunter asks Lister whether he’s travelled interstellar like it’s something everyone does. Because if interstellar travel is slow enough that going into suspended animation is a normal/required part of it, then presumably it takes decades or centuries. That’s potentially a lot of loved ones who’ll die of old age before you get back home.

    Then again, maybe interstellar space travel actually just takes months or single digit years, and passengers go into stasis anyway to alleviate the boredom, or because it’s cheaper. There’s room for head canon.

    #263077
    Hamish
    Participant

    Speaking of shades and red and stuff, the Dave era ship is the wrong shade of red, and Starbug is the wrong shade of Green and too glossy and reflective now, both of which make the show uglier than it needs to be. Starbug also looks tiny these days, and some of the model work is shall we say less than stellar.

    Wrong opinion thread there, Ben.

    #263078
    Dave
    Participant

    Funny how casually Todhunter asks Lister whether he’s travelled interstellar like it’s something everyone does. Because if interstellar travel is slow enough that going into suspended animation is a normal/required part of it, then presumably it takes decades or centuries. That’s potentially a lot of loved ones who’ll die of old age before you get back home.

    They should make a big-budget sci-fi movie about this phenomenon. But what to call it?

    #263079
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    They should make a big-budget sci-fi movie about this phenomenon. But what to call it?

    The Chronicles of Narnia: Prince Caspian

    #263080
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    Wrong opinion thread there, Ben.

    Well it would be a bit strange to carry on a conversation from this thread with “speaking of x”, in another thread.

    The Dwarf goes faster than light but then slows down again in Episode 2, coming to a complete stop many times. Red Dwarf, like basically every other ship in science fiction, travels as quickly as the plot needs it to. If it has to visit a planet a week then it will, even though at sublight speeds that would take *checks notes* forever

    #263081
    Flap Jack
    Participant

    I was quite amused when I first watched Blake’s 7, and Zen asks Blake what speed to make the Liberator go, and he basically just goes “uh… standard? I guess, idk” and not only does Zen understand this as a colloquial instruction, but every character quotes speed as multiples of “Standard” for the whole rest of the show, and it never actually gets defined.

    I kind of respect that Nation, Boucher et al knew that making spaceship speeds actually quantifiable (even if only vaguely and/or relative to light speed) would inevitably lead to fans obsessing over whether every journey makes sense, so they just didn’t try.

    #263082

    let’s pretend i wrote “faster-than-light” there.

    The only time it travels faster than light is in Future Echoes. If we assume it still travels very fast indeed, then coming across a new planet, station, etc., every few weeks shouldn’t be quite so hard to believe, if we consider that humanity managed to get almost as far out as Red Dwarf and then stop.
    There is also the issue of how long it supposedly takes for the ship to turn around…

    #263083

    I don’t think the stasis booths on Red Dwarf are intended for interstellar travel though are they? There are only 3 of them so obviously not enough to service the whole crew.

    Red Dwarf, in the show and in the books, is designed to go up and down the solar system over the course of months/years.

    Even though RD is seen to hop from planet to planet each week in later series, they still talk about it travelling relatively slowly.

    It is only in Skipper that the idea that Red Dwarf goes up and down the Milky Way (the galaxy) is mentioned and that to me has always felt like a ret-con. Although one that makes sense, but does imply Red Dwarf is intended to travel at fast speeds as the “jags” are 6 months long.

    So there’s some contradictory fuckery going on, especially as stasis booths are used on other ships to travel interstellar (as per Todhunter) but then it wouldn’t be Red Dwarf if it all added up.

    #263085
    Dave
    Participant

    It is only in Skipper that the idea that Red Dwarf goes up and down the Milky Way (the galaxy) is mentioned and that to me has always felt like a ret-con. Although one that makes sense, but does imply Red Dwarf is intended to travel at fast speeds as the “jags” are 6 months long.

    Either way though, alternate universe.

    #263088
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    Speaking of shades and red and stuff, the Dave era ship is the wrong shade of red, and Starbug is the wrong shade of Green and too glossy and reflective now, both of which make the show uglier than it needs to be. Starbug also looks tiny these days, and some of the model work is shall we say less than stellar.

    Starbug looks cack nowadays because it’s made from a material that doesn’t take the paints used for the originals (Ford Signal Green car paint, and airbrushing). It’s the sintered 3D print stuff. Anything too wet soaks in.

    It’s painted with a latex or similar based acrylic paint, so it’s shiny (and crap)

    #263089
    Ben Saunders
    Participant

    According to Katydid, the only Starbugs that were 3D-printed were the ones they crashed, and imo they actually looked decent. It’s the flying through space stuff that looks worst. So you might be right about it being a material which doesn’t take the paint, but wrong about them being 3D-printed. Unless they’re wrong. In which case fuck.

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