Flap Jack

[Flap Jack]

Oh dear, it’s this discussion again

But is Series VIII really worse than Series VII? Let’s think seriously about this.

[Flap Jack]

[The Rimmonster rampages down the corridor with astonished, excited grins on its faces.]

Rimmonster: “Kryten, unpack Rachelmonster and get out the puncture repair kit! I’m alive! I can touch, I can feel, I can absorb other Rimmers, I’m alive! Don’t you think it’s incredible? I. AM. ALIVE!”

[The Rimmonster is suddenly bombarded with bazookoid fire until it explodes.]

Cat: “What was he saying?”

IT’S COLD OUTSIDE THERE’S NO KIND OF

[Flap Jack]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: if Doug (and GNP, UKTV etc.) wanted Back to Earth not to be regarded as “Series IX” then he should have learned to count and called the 2012 series “Series IX”.

And if he just skipped 9 to troll everyone, then that means he did it to deliberately provoke this exact reaction, so therefore there’s no problem.

[Flap Jack]

Seconded. I had no idea who Kevin Keegan was when I first saw Series 1 (other than having the vague feeling that he was a genuine famous person), but the idea that the worst book ever written as of hundreds of years in the future – as judged quasi-objectively by an AI – would be such an ordinary one is brilliant.

It’s basically just a variation on the Hitchhiker’s joke that the worst poetry in the universe was just written by some random guy from Essex. In that case, the person named wasn’t really famous either, so it especially didn’t matter when later versions anonymised the name.

Though the update to the Kevin Keegan gag did ruin it, but that was because (a) they tried to make the new name inherently funny rather funny because of how ordinary it is, and (b) they made the football reference deliberately Sci-Fi-ish; it’s not because the author was no longer real.

[Flap Jack]

These are pretty good! (Though a few of them are a bit overwritten.) The Ace Rimmer channel really is a gold mine for unreleased/unarchived RD content.

I think my favourite is “Your phone is ringing. I’d answer it for you but I’m afraid I’m currently dead.” That’s a ringtone which is implicitly set in a past series.

It certainly would be cool to hear other examples of these. How do you know they exist?

[Flap Jack]

I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that the “Dimension Jump” DVD is a collection of content from the biennial Red Dwarf fan convention, and not just a dedicated disc for one Series IV episode.

Also, I only just processed that Timestone2000 has all of the individual series releases and the Series I-VIII “Just The Shows” box set and the “All The Shows – Anniversary Edition” box set.

But… why?

I’m not even sure if it’ll be worth getting the Blu ray versions…

[Flap Jack]

Casablanca

OK, for real, in the context of a Comic Relief/Children In Need short, I would be absolutely psyched if they did a Red Dwarf/Doctor Who crossover. Kind of an obvious answer, but someone had to say it. Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled program:

Broadchurch

[Flap Jack]

He might have gone as early as Future Echoes, given what happens to him in that episode.

Though no virtual or robotic dentist would need to leave the room when the x-ray is being taken, so it still doesn’t make sense. The only explanation is that one of the others told him about it for some reason, or he saw it in a TV show or film. Maybe he binge-watched My Family.

The real explanation, of course, is that Series VIII would just give random one-liners to whomever. Doesn’t really matter if it’s something the character might actually say.

Also it was cut so does it really count?

[Flap Jack]

“We got more chance of persuading a dentist to hang around an X ray machine.” Eh?

I can’t imagine what caused you to remember this line in particular, clem. :P

The joke (for want of a better term) is just that if you get your mouth X-rayed during a dentist appointment, the dentist will leave the room while it’s happening. That’s it.

[Flap Jack]

It’s A Wonderful Life

[Flap Jack]

Winnie the Pooh

[Flap Jack]

University Challenge

[Flap Jack]

The Flintstones

[Flap Jack]

Hyperdrive

[Flap Jack]

Ha, I literally said that this had nothing to do with the abruptness of the ending, yet people have still ended up discussing the abruptness of the ending. I shouldn’t have fought fate.

OK, here’s another variation:

The Rimmer monster is rampaging through the corridor when Rimmer rushes out in front of him, wearing a curly wig, a fake moustache and a yellow jacket.

“Stop! I know you think you still need to absorb the original Rimmer, but you miscounted! There are no more Rimmers left – so your life’s work is done!”

The monster looks incredulous and gestures at Rimmer.

“Me? Oh no, I get why you’d think I was Rimmer, as we do look very similar, but as you can see- ”

Rimmer gestures at his name tag.

” – I’m Knott.”

[Flap Jack]

Are bio-printed people considered to have the same level of sentience as holograms? Because if so, bios have it way worse than holos. At least if you’re a hologram, you’ll only be created if there’s no other versions of you around, and the threat of “you’ll be erased from existence if we no longer have any use for you” is implicit and reversible, rather than explicit and permanent.

[Flap Jack]

Rimmer is able to ask Holly for a holo-sandwich to eat in Thanks For The Memory, so it stands to reason Rimmer would be able to piss, shit and jizz too.

It would be holo-jizz, though.

My feeling is that none of those bodily functions are necessary – and Rimmer can probably opt in or out of feeling the urge to do most of them – but holograms can still do them for the sake of their mental well-being. The hologram is meant to be as perfect as possible a simulation of the human mind, so the more human things they can do, the more human they feel. Hey, if you can’t touch anything else by default, the ability to wank might be the only thing keeping you sane.

Sleeping is probably the most important “non-essential” function a hologram could do, because even disregarding the energy-conserving aspect, sleeping and dreaming is hugely important for the human brain. That’s something I bet holograms can’t even opt out of without at least getting past an “Are you sure?” pop up. Consider that neither of the Rimmers try just not sleeping ever in IWCD (that’s more because doing so might remove the competitive masculinity aspect, but still).

Heck, even the fact that holograms have to walk around on their legs shows this in action. They could just hover in the air and fly around the place (or just straight up teleport, before the light bee was retconned in), but they don’t, because it would feel wrong to them.

[Flap Jack]

I think with the episodes Trojan and Can of Worms you could just bring back a person with Alzheimer’s and do a sort of surgery on them that removes their illness instead of bringing them back already without it.

Sure, but I wasn’t asking about how feasible it was, but the implications of it being done while the Alzheimer’s patient the hologram is based on was still alive.

As for the wheelchair question, it seems likely that the Holo-Person would get to choose, with the default being that they’re as they were when they did their last “backup”. After all, hard or not, it’s just a light projection. A wheelchair should be no more difficult than a different outfit or haircut.

I’d think that mental differences between original Rimmer and Holo-Rimmer are more likely to get a “he’s not truly Rimmer” reaction than physical changes.

Especially considering: holograms by design are meant to mimic the original person’s appearance perfectly, but they literally can’t be a perfect representation of their minds, because holograms – due to being holograms – will experience things that no living human could experience and feel things that no living human could feel. So, as they continue living they develop new memories and personalities that the people they’re based on wouldn’t.

[Flap Jack]

There’s probably an interesting philosophical discussion to be had about whether Series VIII Rimmer or Series 1-VII Rimmer is the most “real”. S8 Rimmer is an actual living human being with Rimmer’s original body and Rimmer’s mind, but is missing some key memories. Holo-Rimmer is just a computer simulation of Rimmer, but one that has equal sentience and all of his memories plus many years extra. We know which one we prefer, but is that really because he’s the most legitimate version of Rimmer?

If a person has Alzheimer’s, is a hologram recreation of them which retains all of their memories more “the real them” than the living person?

Are holograms even considered full persons, given that their continued existence is dependent on private corporations funding their projection in exchange for work, and they can be switched off in favour of another person without their consent?

Somebody have this discussion. I’m too lazy.

[Flap Jack]

Red Dwarf: Series IX – Episode 1: ‘Back to Worth’
—————————————————————————–

Lister wakes up from his surgery at the end of ‘Nanarchy’, and walks into the cockpit.

Lister: “Oh, man, I just had the worst nightmare. It felt like I was in it for months.”

Kochanski: “Why, what was so bad about it?”

Lister: “Rimmer was alive again.”

[Audience laughs uproariously for seven uninterrupted minutes.]

Holly: “Are you sure that was a dream? What about all those parts you weren’t present for?”

Lister: “I don’t know, dreams are weird, aren’t they?

Cat: “Of course it was a nightmare! The real me wouldn’t be caught dead in a lilac prison jumpsuit!”

Kryten: “Oh my god, who the fuck cares about a stupid dream you had? At least acknowledge your restored right arm, you ungrateful cunt.”

They then return to the rebuilt Red Dwarf. 2 weeks later Rimmer comes back too, after chickening out of his very first Ace mission. Everybody then guilts Lister for pretending that Rimmer was dead for no reason.

[Flap Jack]

I think we can take that as a statement of high probability, not certainty.

Or maybe he’ll try to cover himself by adding an extra line that says “P.S. ‘Red Dwarf XIII’ is my pet name for your mum.”

[Flap Jack]

OK, there are a couple of things to keep in mind about this:

1. Free speech is not an unlimited right. It ends when you use it to infringe upon the rights of others. So if your speech does incite violence, promote bigotry etc., then “it was just a joke” is not a defence. Now, this is obviously a very ambiguous case, so it’s not necessarily absurd to consider the charges unjustified, but you can’t just play “FREE SPEECH THO” as a universal trump card.
2. As Pete said, the video is not making fun of Nazis, it’s trivialising Nazi behaviour. That’s probably what shifted it into being suspect.
3. Anyone who makes terrible jokes on the internet should definitely do at least a few months of hard time. I include myself in that.

[Flap Jack]

Would you watch a live Red Dwarf puppet show?

[Flap Jack]

It’s funny how people just use “anime” as shorthand for “expensive and stylised”.

Unless you genuinely mean you’d want it to be made in Japanese and then dubbed into English later?

[Flap Jack]

43p each, or £2.58 for the 6

Haha, oh boy, I got this SO wrong. Bless my millennial heart.

How did you interpret it, Flap Jack? You thought the barman was being sarcastic?

I definitely didn’t think the barman was being sarcastic. I thought that Ford’s payment – and in particular the barman’s earnestly grateful reaction – was absurdist humour, possibly with an element of commentary by Adams on the rising price of beer.

Now, I’m not a total moron. I knew about inflation and assumed £5 would be closer to the correct amount in the late 70s than it would be now or ten years ago, but I just didn’t consider that the price of beer might have literally quintupled since then.

I’m actually a bit disappointed now. The idea that a barman would be nigh awestruck at the generosity of Ford massively underpaying for beer is a lot funnier than him having that reaction to an overpayment. By the original intention, it’s not even a joke. It’s just both characters acting normally.

[Flap Jack]

I can’t remember the joke being in the film, but they did update the ‘change from a fiver’ joke to Ford paying with a fifty pound note.

Wait, how much did 6 pints of bitter cost in 1978? I just realised I may have been interpreting this joke all wrong ever since I first read it.

[Flap Jack]

The great thing about the “humans are so primitive they still think that digital watches are a pretty neat idea” line is that the more correct an observation it is, the sooner it will itself become dated. So “novelty ringtones” really is the perfect mid-noughties update to it.

Did the 2005 movie update the line to mention “mobile phones”, or did I just dream that?

[Flap Jack]

I did! I love And Another Thing… and all of the previous radio series of Hitchhiker’s Guide, so me liking this was extremely predictable.

This actually feels like a long time coming, because the beginning of And Another Thing… is specifically written so that it could follow either the bleak ending of Mostly Harmless or the schmaltzy ending of the Quintessential Phase. I remember being impressed with Eoin Colfer’s preparedness when I first read AAT in 2009.

Anyway, the performances, jokes and dramatic moments were spot on, though I do wonder if the strong direct continuity with the previous series might be alienating for newer listeners. It was also weird to have Sandra Dickinson as Trillian Prime rather than Susan Sheridan, but obviously there was llittle else they could do, and I’m pleased they fully acknowledged the change, and dedicated the episode to Sheridan.

I guess the only major criticism I have applies to the Tertiary Phase onwards: that the show is SO faithful to the books that there aren’t really very many surprises for people who’ve read them – other than minor details and a smattering of new jokes. So it would be good to see some divergences from the source material as the series goes on. The return of Marvin might count as that, if it continues past the episode 1 cameo – though unfortunately that does fall under the category of “fan service which undermines the original story”.

[Flap Jack]

What if Frankenstein had drunk Lager instead of milk? Would the cat race still have survived? Would they have been too drunk to create religious texts? Would The Cat be the way he was in ‘Polymorph’ permanently? Would this mean that Red Dwarf wouldn’t have run out of cow’s milk, and Lister wouldn’t have ended up drinking dog’s milk? Would this mean that Red Dwarf ran out of lager instead? Would this have motivated Lister to use the time drive to get lager rather than curry, leading them to randomly screw up a different part of history? Would the lack of lager have affected the outcome of ‘Pete’ somehow? Would Lister have started drinking milk instead? Would “Leopard Milk” be literal leopard’s milk, or just cow’s milk with leopard branding? Would the lack of alcohol and raised calcium intake make Lister stronger and sexier, meaning that Rimmer wouldn’t have been able to convince him to swap bodies in ‘Bodyswap’? Would Lister be completely sober in ‘White Hole’, causing him to screw up his planet pool shot and therefore kill everyone instantly?

[Flap Jack]

What are you gonna do, leave a horse’s head made out of marzipan in my bed?

[Flap Jack]

So you mean nothing’s been real since then? Blue Midget? The Ground Controller? None of that was real? You mean after all this, I still haven’t got a date??

[Flap Jack]

Why did you say that name? Mr. Gazpacho?! Why did you say that name? WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!

[Flap Jack]

Warwick lives in the UK though. Different cultures / regions will have different reactions to certain words and phrases depending on their history with them. So, in the UK Warwick could well be right, but that doesn’t mean in stands in the US.

Oh, sure. Red Dwarf is a UK show and I’m a UK citizen so that’s where I was coming from. Whether certain things are more/less offensive in the US is a whole different question, but that’s not the audience Series 2 was written for anyway.

timewave is more offensive arguably

not the name “timewave” but the offensive content in the episode with said name

No doubt about that!

Seriously, if you ever imply that I think Blue Midget is more offensive than Timewave, I’m afraid I will have to sue you for defamation and libel.

[Flap Jack]

I’m pretty sure I’ve heard Warwick Davis say in interviews that Dwarf is more or less OK but Midget is a major no-no. And if you can’t trust Professor Flitwick to be right about these sorts of things, then who can you trust?

[Flap Jack]

Yeah, fair points here. And just to contextualise the dramatic enthusiasm of my replies, I only thought the name seemed a bit iffy on reflection, not that it was genuinely as bad as the examples I gave or a massive, unforgivable sin on the show’s part.

But hopefully I can make some more sense out of why I still feel that the slight iffiness is genuine:

True, “midget” is a real, in-use term for small submarines, and it’s perfectly valid to recognise that Red Dwarf is another show where spaceships are treated like futuristic sea vessels, BUT:

1. The history of the word “midget” pretty much goes:

   First usage for boats -> First usage/recognition as a slur -> Usage in Red Dwarf

   So, given the more troubling baggage the word gained after it was originally used as a category of submarines, it is unlikely that they would continue to name specific boats with this word hundreds of years into the future – because even though the word continues to be used for submarines now, a spaceship is not a submarine, and the mass production of space shuttle crafts is a key opportunity to come up with new terms.

   This is the same reason a comedy writer might also pause when considering this as a name option in the late 80s, or perhaps resist referencing it in the 90s or 2010s.

2. The only context in which “dwarf” and “midget” are specifically paired up like this – since, as has been said, “dwarf” is for celestial bodies and “midget” is for boats – is when referring to little people.

   Therefore, the choice of “Midget” to accompany “Dwarf” in ship names creates the problematic inference, regardless of innocent intentions.

So you folks may not agree with my assessment of Blue Midget’s name as being slightly iffy, but I hope you can at least understand where I’m coming from. =)

[Flap Jack]

None of the books are canon in the general sense, because they all massively contradict the TV versions.

In terms of whether Last Human or Backwards is canon to the first 2 novels, I’d say they both have equal claim.

[Flap Jack]

The Cat would totally win the race. He’s become quite the adept pilot over the years, plus he’s got those superior feline instincts and can even smell through the vacuum of space. It’s a dead cert!

[Flap Jack]

Well would you lookie here.

Can we please stop trying to pretend that “the word technically also has an innocent definition which is practically archaic in its usage!” is a legitimate argument for the defence?

Would you be totally cool if there were other shuttle crafts in the show called “Yellow Retard”, “Purple Spastic” or “Cyan Faggot”? After all, all those words have non-offensive meanings too. Who would feel slightly uncomfortable because a fictional ship is named after a vegetable or whatever?

Anyways, please do nominate this thread to the Hall of Smeg for my apparently doomed attempts to mildly scrutinise an element of Red Dwarf; I’m sure Jawscvmcdia would be chuffed with that result . :’D

[Flap Jack]

You think a gregarious person such as Lister would have no friends whatsoever apart from his work colleagues?

And Rimmer may hate his family, but Better Than Life showed that his feelings towards them were not black and white.

Essentially, the idea that Rimmer and Lister have come to terms with their situation and are happy on Red Dwarf is fine, but the idea that they would actively choose it over getting to speak to/touch other human beings than each other, over seeing the ocean again, over touching grass or smelling flowers, over seeing the sun rise – without even thinking about it – is 100% absurd.

[Flap Jack]

I don’t mind believing that Lister and Rimmer have grown to accept their situation, see Red Dwarf as their home now etc., but if they get handed an easy and instantaneous way to get back to Earth/Io, to see friends and family, to see human civilisation again, then you’d think they’d at least discuss the idea at great length, not just never mention it or casually dismiss it in a few lines of dialogue cut from the broadcast version of the episode.

“Look out Earth – the slime’s coming home!” is something of a mission statement for the whole series. If they’re going to completely change their minds about trying to achieve that, it should be properly acknowledged. If they’re not going to change their minds, then Doug shouldn’t hand them that show-concluding equipment unless he actually intends to conclude the show.

[Flap Jack]

I can’t see how there is anything offensive about the use of the word dwarf or midget, as far as this show is concerned.

1. “Midget” is just a slur against a minority group.
2. Using slurs is bad, or at the very least, awkward.

That’s really all there is to it.

[Flap Jack]

Blue Midget’s just a pun on Red Dwarf, “dwarf” also being an ableist slur, it was the 80s, and now that it’s the 2010s there is still no issue with calling a small blue ship Blue Midget, imo.

“Dwarf” is indeed ableist too, BUT:

A. It’s not nearly ableist as “midget”, and is even sometimes considered to be a politically correct term – though admittedly less so as time goes on.

B. “Dwarf” only has the strictly ableist connotation if you make it clear you’re alluding to a little person and not just the concept of a thing being small in general, which the addition of Blue Midget does, retrospectively.

And as I’ve already explained, there were plenty of options for making “a pun on Red Dwarf” that would have avoided using a word like that, so that’s no excuse. “It was the 80s” is not any kind of excuse either, but even if it were, that doesn’t justify its usage in Series VIII (1999) or Series X (2012). Just because you introduce that Blue Midget exists, it doesn’t mean you’re obliged to keep using it in stories.

Maybe we can assume dwarfism has been cured by whatever century the Dwarfers come from, hence making it no longer a concern to anybody.

That’s irrelevant. Red Dwarf is not a documentary that’s been sent back in time to us, it’s a fictional show made for an audience which almost definitely includes little people who have been tormented by people shouting that word at them while demeaning them and/or showing aggression towards them for much of their lives. The problem with Blue Midget’s name is not a lack of an in-universe explanation, the problem is that casually using a word like that in a sitcom normalises it. (The idea that little people just straight up don’t exist in the future opens up a whole different Can of Worms, too, but this reply is long enough already.)

Anyway, Blue Midget is obviously just a small detail in the show and I’m not accusing Rob or Doug of being prejudiced or deliberately hurtful or anything like that, just that they didn’t think over the name properly, and it’s odd how it never really gets discussed.

[Flap Jack]

OK, seeing as this thread is clearly DOA, can I just point out how weird it is that a staple of the series is named after an ableist slur, and how little this gets mentioned?

Like, sure, “Red Dwarf” is named for uses of the word “dwarf” in astronomy, and Rob/Doug wanted to give the shuttle crafts names with the same theme, but why the hell would they choose “derogatory terms for little people” instead of “fantasy races”? They could have used Elf, Sprite, Pixie, Orc, Goblin, Gnome, Fairy etc. but NOPE, “midget” it is.

[Flap Jack]

Genuinely took a second to process that you meant “eighth”, and I’m now slightly disappointed they didn’t actually film 48 new episodes in one go.

I’ve never watched Still Game, but good on The Other Craig for keeping food on the table.

[Flap Jack]

To be fair, is there any particular reason why Kryten could not have just tinkered with the rejuvenation shower to alter what time period it sent you to?

Yeah, this is why I said it was “believable” that they wouldn’t be able to use the other time travel methods to get back to Earth, rather than, say, “made clear”.

Take the rejuvenation shower. Its intended function isn’t time travel, and even with effort they’re only able to go back and forth between 23 AD Earth and present day Red Dwarf. They may not actually explain that they can’t reverse engineer the shower to take them back to Earth in the correct time period, but it’s not too difficult to assume that.

With the time drive, they actually straight up show us that they can use it to get to anywhere in the universe at any point in time, and then they also show us that they can direct it perfectly. That’s why the time drive (in Series 7 at least) is the laziest time travel plot device.

Also, can I just apologise for helping completely derail this decade old thread about misheard dialogue? I’m so sorry.

[Flap Jack]

That’s interesting. The bit about washing the computer is daft, but I think it works with the novel version of Kryten, the first two novels anyway. In my head he’s much more like David Ross’s Kryten than Bobby Llew’s, and doesn’t become the de facto science officer/ know-it-all exposition machine to nearly the same extent as in the series, so doing something so ridiculous doesn’t seem as far fetched.

It’s kind of hard to feel the David Ross vibe in the audiobook when Chris Barrie is doing a near-perfect Bobby impression throughout. =P

But my main problem isn’t that Kryten should be a super expert in all things scientific like he is in the show, it’s that his entire job is CLEANING on a SPACESHIP, yet he somehow doesn’t know that he shouldn’t just clog all the electrical equipment with soapy water. This is meant to be his one area of expertise!

I think I’m right in saying that was a change made for the Omnibus, and in the original version of Infinity… it’s by Kevin Keegan as per the TV show.

Wait… WAIT. They changed things between the solo edition of Infinity and the omnibus/audiobook?! How many things did they change? And why? Did they really need to do “Remastered” for the books as well as the episodes?

[Flap Jack]

i think it was more along the lines of “we fucked up the entire future of the Earth from 1963 onwards four seconds after we arrived, if we went back to Earth our time we’d probably fuck everything up so badly that civilization would collapse” so i guess the main characters just all see themselves as being really destructive and clumsy morons now.

it’s not about time paradoxes, it’s about travelling back and accidentally bumming another gunman out of a window

But then that’s not an argument against going back in time, that’s an argument against existing in society at all. Any of us could inadvertently do something like that which ends up shaping history in a bad way, but it’s not particularly likely, and I’m not going to go live in deep space just in case.

Sure, Lister and co. could – and by definition, would, at least a little bit – “change history” by going back to their time of origin and living their lives, but there are very few changes they could make deliberately (and therefore trigger a paradox), because they only know very few details about how human history develops, and for accidental changes they’d have no idea how it was any different.

Essentially, if it’s not a paradox, it’s not a time travel problem, it’s just a regular, everyday problem.

… can we at least agree that they should have used the time drive to check if Earth was still there in the present day?

[Flap Jack]

they explain in Tikka Xtended that they can’t use the time drive to go back to Earth 3 million years ago as they might end up causing another paradox or messing up history, with Lister promising to Rimmer that his timejump to 3 weeks ago to get the ship’s curry back will be the last time they use it.

Ah ha ha, that’s such a bad excuse! Given they show they can operate the time drive perfectly, the only paradoxes they could feasibly create by going back to THEIR OWN TIME would be:

1. Bringing back Kryten to before the technology which made him existed, therefore potentially changing the circumstances of Kryten’s creation and eventual meeting with the RD crew – Solution: either part ways with Kryten, or return to live in Kryten’s time period instead.
2. Deliberately trying to stop the Red Dwarf radiation leak from happening, or trying to rescue Lister from the ship millions of years early – Solution: don’t do that.
3. Um… something to do with The Cat, maybe? – Solution: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nothing else they could do in the post-accident 3-million-years-ago past would impact their own history on Red Dwarf, because Red Dwarf basically just drifted into space for all that time, doing its own thing.

But sure, I guess that’s a good enough reason to casually dismiss the idea of seeing loved ones, your home planet, or any other people again.

[Flap Jack]

In series six they have both a time drive and a teleporter, which begs the question why they can’t just use one after the other to end up in a specific time and place, again. I remember thinking this during the “we’re in deep space in the 12th century thing” – you have a teleporter!

I mean, my inference was that any teleport they had could only transport them a limited range/back to Starbug – Blake’s 7 style – not to any location in the entire universe.

[Flap Jack]

I can see why some people don’t like it, but I think it’s quite a clever way of giving humanity some kind of happy ending while maintaining the premise of Lister being the last human and humanity destined to become extinct as soon as he dies.

It’s all in how you interpret it. You/Doug say “He fathers himself, which means infinite Listers, forever!” while I say “No, there’s just one Lister total, who’s stuck in a stable time loop, and said time loop makes no difference to how many humans there are, or how long Lister lives, or anything at all. All Lister does is ensure that his life occurs in the way it always did. Lister still dies, humanity still dies, nothing matters any more than it did before, goodnight.”

It begs the question of why they don’t use the Time Drive to find Red Dwarf. Or go back to Earth three million years ago, or now. Or maybe it doesn’t and I’m talking shite

You definitely aren’t talking shite. The time drive in Tikka To Ride/Ouroboros is one of the most glaring plot holes (for want of a better term) in all of Red Dwarf. No fan theory or headcanon can possibly explain why they don’t even try to use it to get back to Earth. Out of Time dodged this problem expertly, but Tikka… didn’t.

I’m reminded of Ed Bye making light of people complaining about the time drive on the DVD documentary, essentially amounting to “Geez, calm down guys, the time drive was just a thing we made up!”, which is a perfectly valid defense if you don’t think making your TV show’s overall story cohesive is important.

So many episodes managed to use time travel to tell a particular story while making it believable that it was very limited in use – Future Echoes, Stasis Leak, Timeslides, The Inquisitor, Out of Time, Lemons, Twentica, Give & Take, and even … *sigh* … Timewave – but oh no, there’s just no way they could have done their “oops we accidentally saved JFK” plot without giving the crew unlimited space-time traveling capabilities.

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