Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum the man with the ‘H’ on his head

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  • #3851
    hummingbird
    Participant

    A question about Doug’s commentary over the scene when Cat reveals that he brought the squid on board

    … here we have the explanation … it turns out Mr Cat, and … er … also that says, I suppose, a few interesting things about who the man with the H is on his head, and I think it can be only be one of one person if … erm … the cat’s explanation is right. So, there, that’s something to think about, I guess.

    Forgive me if I’m being thicker than the offspring of a village idiot and a TV weathergirl, but I really can’t see what he’s trying to say about Rimmer here. Is Doug referring to the effect that the squid had on Rimmer? Or that he must have had some part in bringing the squid on board? Either way I don’t get it.
    Have I missed something really obvious here?

    #100181
    Carlito
    Participant

    Haven’t seen the DVD yet so don’t really know what you’re talking about. Is he maybe trying to answer the question of which Rimmer this was?

    #100182
    p2p_productions
    Participant

    Possibly means, ‘this is the old Rimmer’ (the one that went off to become Ace), rather than the nanobot-resurrected version from VIII – as he couldn’t have known about the original squid.

    #100183
    NoFro
    Participant

    He’s talking about BTE Rimmer having to be the original Rimmer. He says something along the lines of “that’s another story for another day” which I don’t interpret as meaning we’ll see it in an episode necessarily, but it’ll be explained at some point in some way.

    #100184
    NoFro
    Participant

    That’s what I got from it anyway and it seems P2P seems to have got the same thing from it.

    #100185
    JamesTC
    Participant

    Simple excuse – Rimmer failed to be Ace, got back to his own dimension and joined the gang again. It all happened in Series IX, I’m surprised you don’t remember the episode.

    #100186
    hummingbird
    Participant

    Of course – he’s implying it’s the original Rimmer.
    Thanks, guys.

    #100187
    NoFro
    Participant

    Chances are they’ll have left the destroyed Red Dwarf at the end of VIII and will have lost it, only to find later a planetoid that’s like Red Dwarf only shorter in length. They’ll search around on the planetoid and find a lightbee which they’ll turn on and Rimmer will be back and then they’ll fly back in in a starbug to find the Dwarf is something closer to it’s original size.

    It wouldn’t be copying an idea. It’d be a homage to that all-time classic Nanarchy…

    (I loved BTE. Don’t worry.)

    #100189
    pfm
    Participant

    If it IS the original Rimmer (strongly implied) then fuck yes. It’s good to know Doug is in tune with his own show and fans. Of course, some of you will wonder why he won’t listen to fans who want the audience, sitcom-y like Dwarf back. He obviously IS taking that opinion onboard along with all the others, BUT you’ve got to look at the practicalities of that and also Doug’s own ambitions. He tried to get a movie made for 8 years. BtE is in essence a TVM, the closest thing to a movie that it was possible for him to make, and good on him for doing it.

    #100198
    Andrew
    Participant

    Also: he couldn’t afford a bloody audience!

    #100199
    ori-STUDFARM
    Participant

    I’d have gone for free

    #100201
    Carlito
    Participant

    > I?d have gone for free

    Studio audiences don’t get paid (usually), guessing he means the production costs of organising and recording one.

    To be honest, organising one would cost fuck all… a well timed post on TOS forums and these forums, and you’d have your audience confirmed within the hour. Why use a third party?

    If it’s a series VII style film-first/audience-later job then just book some cinema-esque venue, rig up some audio recording equipment and record the whole thing in one day with a few intervals so the audience doesn’t burn out. Free entry, couple of posts on TOS and G&T telling people where and when to show up… sorted! Surely THAT can’t cost a huge amount?

    I know there was NO money left in the pot to do this for BTE, but for any future series?

    #100207
    hummingbird
    Participant

    You get the impression that they would all have preferred to have an audience, if time and money had permitted. If a new series does materialise then hopefully they’ll have the facility to make that happen.

    Can I put my ticket application in now?

    #100209
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    > To be honest, organising one would cost fuck all? a well timed post on TOS forums and these forums, and you?d have your audience confirmed within the hour. Why use a third party?

    Wow, it’s all so simple!

    #100211
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    If only Carl had been involved in the production of BTE – he clearly knows more about making telly than any of the people they used.

    #100212
    Carlito
    Participant

    Why is this?

    #100213
    TheLeen
    Participant

    Also: he couldn?t afford a bloody audience!

    Could’ve sold gold VIP tickets ;)

    I would’ve paid to be an extra :p

    #100214
    Baz
    Participant

    Doesn’t have to have been the last possible Rimmer, the one that became Ace. Back to Reality was the last episode where they had Red Dwarf and Holly, so the Rimmer in BtE could be a copy from after that episode, activated after they got the ship back. That way he’d have the memories of the Despair Squid and Holly might have had plans of a hard light bee.

    #100216
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Except Doug’s already said…

    …Y’know what? Forget it.

    #100218
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I got the impression from Doug’s commentary that the main reason for not having an audience was less to do with cost (although that was clearly a factor – and it’s all well and good saying you could find an audience by scouting fan forums but it doesn’t solve the problem of where to put them), and more to do with the short production schedule meaning that they simply didn’t have time to fully rehearse the scripts – and going in front of an audience unrehearsed would, naturally, have been a disaster.

    I don’t know where I got that impression, mind. Maybe it was because that’s what Doug said.

    #100219
    SkyAndSun
    Participant

    From the commentary I sensed it was more for budgetary than creative reasons – though I’m still unsure how filming the emotional scenes before a live audience would have worked.

    And as I’ve said before, the lack of an audience didn’t bother me, really. In some ways I think it improved and modernised the show; usually whenever I hear a laugh track nowadays I feel a slightly out of date mechanism is telling me when to laugh. I think the thing for which I missed it in BTE was the way it might have enhanced the actors’ performances.

    #100232
    pfm
    Participant

    > though I?m still unsure how filming the emotional scenes before a live audience would have worked.

    Stuff like Lister at the graveside would have been a pre-record anyway.

    There were so many reasons why the audience recordings were impractical it’s untrue. We can garner that much from the DVD. With more time and money they obviously could have happened. Personally I think BtE could have turned out to be a real mess if they had sacrificed certain aspects just to get an audience in.

    #100234
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I think the atmosphere of BTE would have been compromised should there have been an audience.

    #100236
    pfm
    Participant

    Correct. It’s hardly a ‘gaggy’ episode, so a lot of the time it would have been either forced laughs or no laughter at all, therefore it’s best without them.

    #100244
    Carlito
    Participant

    Said it before… I’d have been happy with a laugh track up until they became “real” ie. got back to Earth… then no laugh track because they’re no longer in a TV show, just to add to the illusion… then the audience returns for the last couple scenes when they wake up.

    #100253
    NoFro
    Participant

    See I thought about that but then didn’t like it. I thought that if they did it like that it’d be like there was a laughter track to life in their universe. Of course this is all my opinion and that way might’ve worked for others but for me it’s all or nothing. Though I had no real problem with the lack of one, especially in the Directors Cut.

    #100257
    Ilinga
    Participant

    I’ve always preferred to watch the extended VII episodes without the laughter. In fact, when I was rewatching the DVDs recently I was surprised at how jarring the laughter seemed after watching those episodes. I was quite happy to find out that BtE would be without it, and even more so once I actually saw the shows as I really don’t see how it could have worked without dramatically changing the tone.

    #100285
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    >In some ways I think it improved and modernised the show; usually whenever I hear a laugh track nowadays I feel a slightly out of date mechanism is telling me when to laugh.

    Laugh tracks aren’t used to tell people when to laugh; comedy doesn’t work like that. If I don’t find something with a laugh track funny, I won’t laugh, but the audio depth and warmth that a laugh track can provide may carry me to a wry smile every now and then. If I don’t find something without a laugh track funny, the absence makes everything feel flat and lifeless for me, which I think is worse. Having said that, some shows suit them, and others don’t. I’m not sure BTE suits a laugh track, but as I didn’t really like it, it’s a moot point for me.

    #100286
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Well, quite. I don’t miss the laugh track, I just miss the laughs.

    #100289
    pfm
    Participant

    Whatever anyone says, it’s a fact that a laugh track makes sitcoms funnier (funnier, not funny. If it’s not funny to begin with the laugh track is just gonna piss you off) and it makes them easier to laugh at.

    Obviously when I say ‘sitcoms’ I mean Father Ted, Only Fools… etc. that studio sitcom style of show. BtE was basically a TV movie so a laugh track would have been totally wrong (even though audience recordings were originally planned). If there was a return to a sitcom-y style then YES bring the laughter back, definitely. Audience laughter is part and parcel of a proper sitcom.

    #100290
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Whatever anyone says, it?s a fact that a laugh track makes sitcoms funnier

    Congratulations, that’s complete bullshit.

    #100292
    pfm
    Participant

    > Congratulations, that?s complete bullshit.

    No it’s not. Maybe it doesn’t make the actual script funnier but the overall product IS funnier with laughter. Imagine watching some of your favourite audience sitcoms without the laughter. The VII Xtended episodes aren’t relevant enough because VII’s not shot like sitcom and wasn’t filmed in front of an audience. Think of Father Ted without the laughter. It wouldn’t be half as good IMO. A bold statement to make, maybe, but I totally believe that. There’s just an energy that audience laughter brings to a sitcom.

    I’m not sure some people quite understand the function of laughter tracks. It’s not telling you when to laugh or telling you you should be laughing like the studio audience. My dad always says ‘why are they laughing like that, in hysterics? It’s not that funny.’ If you were in the audience you would be laughing along with everyone else as long as the mood has been set. Er, where were we?

    #100293
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >Imagine watching some of your favourite audience sitcoms without the laughter.

    Ok, I’ll go and watch The Office. I’ll let you know how I get on.

    >If you were in the audience you would be laughing along with everyone else as long as the mood has been set.

    No. No I wouldn’t.

    #100295
    pfm
    Participant

    > Ok, I?ll go and watch The Office. I?ll let you know how I get on.

    “your favourite audience sitcoms” you fucking pri…*controls self*

    Ahem, WHATEVER Gervais says The Office is NOT a sitcom!!!! !!! ! it’s shot as fake doco stylie and would be ruined as much by having a laugh track as Father Ted would be with it taken away.

    > No. No I wouldn?t.

    Yes you would because you are there to laugh. Look at VIII, half the gags don’t merit a laugh and yet the audience are laughing because they’re doing their job.

    #100297
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    In conclusion, some comedies benefit from a laugh track, and others don’t. Some would be improved if a laugh track was added/taken away, and others would be made worse. Neither approaches are without merit.

    Now, will everyone please shut the fuck up.

    #100298
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >?your favourite audience sitcoms? you fucking pri?*controls self*

    I do apologise. I realised when I added it, and didn’t want to edit unless you jumped in. Besides this, your earlier point was that BTE would not benefit from a laugh-track. I agree with this.

    You then claim that a laugh-track makes things funnier. I completely disagree with this. I think laugh-tracks are great when they’re appropriate and the show is gaggy enough. Compare Friends to Spaced. They both work in completely different ways.

    But the question as to whether BTE needs one, pales in comparison as to whether a Red Dwarf episode should even be filmed if it prompts a question as to whether it needs one.

    >The Office is NOT a sitcom!!

    Yes. It is.

    >Yes you would because you are there to laugh.

    NO. Just like when I was round a friend’s house on Good Friday, persuaded everyone to watch Part 1, and then couldn’t even laugh out of sheer courtesy for forcing them to watch something I was failing to find amusing.

    >Look at VIII, half the gags don?t merit a laugh and yet the audience are laughing because they?re doing their job.

    Do you reckon that may be because they found it funny? Just like a lot of people found BTE funny? VIII isn’t my cup of tea, but people still stand by it and I can name at least one person who likes it a lot and was at the audience recordings.

    #100300
    pfm
    Participant

    > You then claim that a laugh-track makes things funnier

    This is what I said – “it?s a fact that a laugh track makes sitcoms funnier”

    It makes SITCOMS funnier. I call Ted, Blackadder, Men Behaving Badly etc. sitcoms. Take the audience away from them and they would be less funny. Shoot them any other way and they would be less funny.

    #100301
    Andrew
    Participant

    >The Office is NOT a sitcom!!

    You total bastard, performingmonkey – with this bit of idiocy you actually put me on the same side of an argument as Pete.

    I will never forgive you. You hear me? NEVER!

    #100302
    pfm
    Participant

    > Do you reckon that may be because they found it funny?

    You find it easier to respond to material, good or bad, when you’re in an audience. Especially when you’ve been warmed up. This is regardless of what kind of show you’ve gone to see.

    Look at the mentalists in the audiences for something like Totally Saturday. We may be being brainwashed by the media into thinking that we’re turning into a nation of braindead Jeremy Kyle Show guests but that doesn’t excuse the fact that we KNOW the audience of 100+ or whatever are NOT finding the piece of excrement that is Totally Saturday such an amazing piece of entertainment that they’re cheering and whooping of their own accord. They’re doing it because they’re in the audience of a studio recording and they’re gonna make the best of it!!!

    #100308
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >You find it easier to respond to material, good or bad, when you?re in an audience. Especially when you?ve been warmed up. This is regardless of what kind of show you?ve gone to see.

    >They?re doing it because they?re in the audience of a studio recording and they?re gonna make the best of it!!!

    Says you. I’m not laughing at anything I don’t find funny. I remember seeing Scary Movie at the cinema with some mates. They, and the vast majority of the audience were wetting themselves. I didn’t feel like joining in with mass hysteria just for the sake of it.

    Alas, I’ve never seen at a TV recording for a show that I didn’t/don’t enjoy. That has, thankfully, never been been a drawback until this conversation.

    >Look at the mentalists in the audiences for something like Totally Saturday.

    The fact that they’ve gone to see Totally Saturday says more about them then whether they laugh at it. They know what they signed up to. If they like that sort of show enough to go to a recording, they’re going to find it amusing.

    >I call Ted, Blackadder, Men Behaving Badly etc. sitcoms. Take the audience away from them and they would be less funny.

    And I disagree. Sitcoms like this work well with studio audiences because they’re gag based, but take away the laughter and you still have the gags. It’s that simple. Same gag. You may enjoy the experience of laughing with other people more, but it doesn’t make it inherently any “funnier”.

    I don’t find Tikka Xtended any funnier than regular Tikka due to the absence of a laugh track. The funny stuff is still funny and the weak stuff is still weak. It’s a different experience, sure, but it’s no funnier.

    Ditto the couple of Only Fools and Horses episodes which were later “treated” to laugh-tracks for video and DVD. Admittedly, these were sub-par episodes anyway, but it makes the script no funnier.

    My mates still like Scary Movie, by the way. I need a gun.

    #100309
    JamesTC
    Participant

    I thinm MASH works better on the DVDs without the laugh track.

    #100310
    Carlito
    Participant

    A laugh track definitely adds that extra intangible something to a studio audience sitcom. Sometimes pleasure is derived simply from absorbing the audience reaction. Think the “wendy house” line in Only Fools… not THAT great a line, but superbly delivered, and you couldn’t help but soak up and contribute to that infectious audience laughter with a chuckle of your own even if you didn’t enjoy it that much. A healthy genuine laugh track can make a good sitcom great and a great sitcom classic. It’s that little extra something that heightens the atmosphere and, in the case of studio shows, enhances the performances.

    People like to laugh WITH other people. It’s a shared experience. That’s why blooper shows and, dare I say, smeg ups are oftentimes so amusing. Okay, it’s part schadenfreude, but it’s mainly that laughter is communal, and a laugh track recreates this communal shared experience – enjoyed for hundreds of years in theatres – for a television audience.

    #100313
    SkyAndSun
    Participant

    I’m not sure if this has been mentioned, but in RD it’s obvious that the audience affects the actors’ performances, making them funnier.

    #100316
    pfm
    Participant

    Carl, agree with everything you said there. That is absolutely why sitcoms are better with an audience.

    > I?m not sure if this has been mentioned, but in RD it?s obvious that the audience affects the actors? performances, making them funnier.

    Yep. Check out episodes like Marooned and Polymorph, the audience is like fuel to the comedy fire. IMO the episodes that distance themselves from the studio audience are less successful. Doing gaggy audience gags NOT in front of an audience seems false. Take, for example, in BtE the Cat’s reaction to finding out he’s a character, it’s screaming for an audience reaction. This is evidence that Dwarf could and should definitely return to sitcom-ville (sorry, I’m just thinking of Psychoville, which is on in 55 minutes).

    Right I’m just gonna shutup because I’m really boring myself.

    #100317
    NoFro
    Participant

    > Think the ?wendy house? line in Only Fools? not THAT great a line, but superbly delivered, and you couldn?t help but soak up and contribute to that infectious audience laughter.

    I love how the tension is killed in “Psirens” by the audience bursting into hysterics after Lister goes “Someone who badly needed a pen.” Not a line that is hilarious but the context and delivery make it brilliant and… well… what you said.

    #100318
    Andrew
    Participant

    > A laugh track definitely adds that extra intangible something to a studio audience sitcom.

    Yeah – I hate those studio audience sitcoms that are done without a laugh track.

    #100319
    Carlito
    Participant

    You know exactly what I mean. Any sitcom with an audience, be it live or pre-taped.

    Facetious goit. ;)

    #100326
    Ben Paddon
    Participant

    Solution: Have a studio audience to impact actors’ performances, but gag them so we don’t have to put up with any laughter.

    #100332
    pfm
    Participant

    I while ago I wondered whether laughter over a sitcom WAS dated and that I only liked it on some of my favourite shows because I was used to it. Then Graham Linehan came along and slapped me across the face for being such a foolish pillock. Well, he didn’t literally do that, he made The IT Crowd, complete with laughter, and it worked rather well.

    #100396
    NitroChrisUK
    Participant

    getting back to “the man with the ‘H’ on his head” it does seem pretty likely that it is the original rimmer, the series viii rimmer could have been told about the squid encounter but was not actually there so he would have said ” the squid we encounterd “

    if they do any new episodes would be interesting to find out how he managed to get out of fulfilling his destiny and being ace . he was probably the one to break the chain after all.

    #100397
    Ilinga
    Participant

    I remember in one of the VIII extras (I think), when they were talking about the ending of Only The Good, that Doug mentioned one of the ideas he’d had was that Ace would come in and save Nano!Rimmer at the end. Until/if we find out what actually happened I’ve decided to just believe that’s what did happen, and that the two Rimmers changed places. I think VIII Rimmer would be a better choice for the job, which would then allow ‘our’ Rimmer to return to the Dwarf without breaking the chain. As to how everything else was fixed and what happened in the meanwhile…. *shrugs*

    Of course, maybe it was just as simple as Nano!Rimmer dying at the end of Only The Good and at some point ‘Ace’ deciding he’d had enough of trying to be someone he’s not and running home, or that this Rimmer was rebooted from a backup copy of his program from the point where he left to become Ace.

    #100398
    ChrisM
    Participant

    I?ve decided to just believe that?s what did happen, and that the two Rimmers changed places. I think VIII Rimmer would be a better choice for the job, which would then allow ?our? Rimmer to return to the Dwarf without breaking the chain.

    I wondered if they swapped roles too, although I doubt human Rimmer is better for the job, essentially being the Rimmer before the character development of 7 series! It would be amusing if human Rimmer was tricked into the role though…. Maybe he was rendered unconcious and deposited on Wildfire and sent away on autopilot. Imagine the shock when he woke up…

    #100399
    Ilinga
    Participant

    That does sound like something ‘our’ Rimmer might do to him!

    I suppose what I mean about VIII Rimmer is that, even though he’s esentially the same as Series I Rimmer at the start, by the end of it all he is his own man. Both Rimmers went through vastly different experiences and grew in different ways. Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve always thought that Nano!Rimmer would make for a more believable choice as the next Ace. I never really bought Rimmer flying off so quickly in Stoke Me A Clipper. I always imagined that at some point after leaving, whether hours or days or weeks later, it would all catch up to him and he’d be left wondering what the hell was he thinking letting himself get swept up in it all.

    #100402
    Wilbur
    Participant

    It makes sense- afterall, we do know that in all the dimensions encountered by the original Ace, he never met another Rimmer who was as cowardly and weasely as the version encountered upon Red Dwarf, therefore it would make perfect sense for Rimmer to stuff up being Ace, return to his original dimension and ‘seduce’ (for want of a better word) his rebuilt version into taking on the role.

    But to fill in the massive gap between Series VIII and BtE, how did it happen? My original thought that Ace could have showed up at the end of OtGD and convinced Rimmer that becoming Ace was better than staying on the ship getting eaten by the virus, but that leaves the plothole that the original Rimmer was trapped in a mirror universe away from the rest of the crew- but then so was the rebuilt Rimmer!

    Maybe someone has already formulated a theory to cover this and I’ve just not been reading closely enough…

    #100415
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    >and ?seduce? (for want of a better word) his rebuilt version into taking on the role.

    ‘Convince’? ‘Ask’? ‘Cajole’? ‘Creampie’?

    #100432
    Wilbur
    Participant

    Nah, stil going with seduce.

    #100447
    Ridley
    Participant

    But to fill in the massive gap between Series VIII and BtE, how did it happen? My original thought that Ace could have showed up at the end of OtGD and convinced Rimmer that becoming Ace was better than staying on the ship getting eaten by the virus, but that leaves the plothole that the original Rimmer was trapped in a mirror universe away from the rest of the crew- but then so was the rebuilt Rimmer!

    Maybe someone has already formulated a theory to cover this and I?ve just not been reading closely enough?

    Would much, much rather the BTE Rimmer is the nano version but Rimmer wasn’t trapped in the mirror universe and Ace could have just dimension jumped even if he was anyway…

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