They were gonna sort that out in the dub

[John Hoare]

Lister, in Polymorph: “It’s trying to kill me!” It’s always stuck out to me as a really bad bit of dubbing.

Any more?

Topic

[Danny Stephenson]

The looping of the Groans in ‘Bodyswap’. When Rimmer/Lister is in the sauna.

Cant’ remember which version it’s done in though.

[Danny Stephenson]

There’s also a loop of the laughs in Polymorph with the Boxer scene. God knows why, there’s enough evidence to support the fact that the laughs were plentiful…

[John Hoare]

I suppose we should also include Rimmer’s mum in Polymorph Remastered.

Forgetting what it’s like technically – it manages to sap out every last bit of comedy from a very funny scene.

[Danny Stephenson]

Why on earth did they change it anyway. WHat was wrong with the original?

[John Hoare]

I suspect – although maybe we’ll get a bit more detail on The Bodysnatcher Collection – that they didn’t think the common voice was right for the character. She’s supposed to be “prim, proper, almost austere”. But who cares? It’s very, VERY funny.

But maybe it was an odd choice to make when making the original episode. Is the idea that Rimmer was lying about his mum? Or was it just done because that voice was funnier in context than a posh one?

[JohnnyW]

> Why on earth did they change it anyway. WHat was wrong with the original?

I’ll never understand why Series III was “remastered”, it was the first series where they got the look right, if you ask me. They should have just tried to get Series I & II to match!

(Don’t talk to me about the “improved” Red Dwarf model…. hnnnnnng!)

[Danny Stephenson]

> Don?t talk to me about the ?improved? Red Dwarf model

You mean, the Intended Model…

The only reason that Red Dwarf looked like it did in the earlier series was because they ran out of money and couldn’t build it to the proper length.

[JohnnyW]

And Han was also supposed to shoot second…

Truth is, intended or not, we, the fans, had gotten used to seeing Red Dwarf how it was for five years, six series and two novels. Intended or not, it did not improve on Red Dwarf and, if anything, it jarred, so what was the point, exactly?

[Jonathan Capps]

Well, nothing was improved, Danny was just pointing out that the pencil was the original intention. It may not excuse the decision to remaster it that way, but it’s very interesting none-the-less.

[John Hoare]

Actually, I didn’t know the longer version of the ship was the original intention. Where was that stated?

[Jonathan Capps]

One bit of dodgy sound that always bothers me is in Marooned when Rimmer says “What about your guitar?”. He’s gone slightly out of range of the mics and it really sticks out for me. Can’t remember if it was fixed in re-mastered, though.

[Jonathan Capps]

Didn’t Mike mention it at this year’s DJ? I can’t remember exactly where I heard it, but when Danny mentioned it here it rung a bell.

I could be making things up, though…

[Andrew]

> so what was the point, exactly?

To sell then show internationally. It wasn’t made for the existing fanbase, it was made for people who’d never seen the show.

> She?s supposed to be ?prim, proper, almost austere?.

But isn’t it interesting that a year later the same actress returns to play the part again…only this time she has the accent and attitude that Rimmer implies?

[Jonathan Capps]

> But isn?t it interesting that a year later the same actress returns to play the part again?only this time she has the accent and attitude that Rimmer implies?

You know I’ve never even twigged that was the same actress before.

[John Hoare]

I had twigged… but it’s very, very strange, isn’t it? But Rob and Doug were heavily involved with the production at that time, so her performance in Polymorph has to be deliberate.

Just one of Rob and Doug’s famous continuity changes, I guess. You can’t really judge from the Remastered, because the fact it’s dubbed puts you off – but I’m sure the lines wouldn’t have been as funny in her later incarnation. “I honestly thought my false teeth were going to fall out” is one of my favourite lines in the episode…

[Pete Part Three]

Well, surely the idea is that the Polymorph is trying to provoke the biggest reaction possible, so not only is Mrs Rimmer a slag (which seems true enough), she no longer “acts” the part of the prim, proper and austere woman that Rimmer has been harping on about. And she shags Lister.

I’m not going to slate the remastereds again, but I will say that I’m slightly confused as to why an international audience would give two bollocks about what the shape of the ship is. The established audience would, so why change it?

Back on topic; The Cat’s line about the ION storm in White Hole STILL jars with me.

[Mr Flibble]

I’m sure I’d heard that the pencil was the original, and I wasn’t at this years DJ…

[Seb Patrick]

I’m not sure about it being mentioned at DJ, although I do remember Pete Tyler saying he didn’t like the “stumpy” version, and every time built a new one he’d make it a bit longer…

[John Hoare]

Well, surely the idea is that the Polymorph is trying to provoke the biggest reaction possible, so not only is Mrs Rimmer a slag (which seems true enough), she no longer ?acts? the part of the prim, proper and austere woman that Rimmer has been harping on about. And she shags Lister.

I wondered that. But the thing is… if it wasn’t realistic in the slightest, then Rimmer wouldn’t be annoyed. It has to be convincing for him to get upset.

Back on topic; The Cat?s line about the ION storm in White Hole STILL jars with me.

I really, *really* want a copy of the original White Hole script, to see if that line was in the original script, or just added in post-production…

[Danny Stephenson]

The pencil thing was at last years’ DJ. They said that they wanted to make it to ‘scale’, being really really long, but yeah, they said they ran out of money. And when the first one was damaged beyond repair. They changed it slightly, but kept the stumpy look because they were used to it. if only they’d have used the MODEL version of the Pencil one for the Remastereds. It wouldn’t be so bad!!!

[Pete Part Three]

The pencil always struck me as being far too flashy (ignoring the piss-poor CGI), especially with that stupid booster thing. It kind of betrayed the space-bum image.

And, not that I’ve spent much time looking at it, but there doesn’t seem to be the embeddded remnants of the asteroid/moon either that is mentioned in IWCD.

[John Hoare]

I agree. Forgetting about the CGI for the moment – I don’t like the actual design either. I like Red Dwarf as a giant hulk of a mining ship (the descriptions in IWCD sum it up) – it shouldn’t be as sleek as the Remastered design. And yeah, the bloody boosters are awful.

There’s *two* asteroids built into the side of the Remastered ship… but “built in” are the operative words. They look deliberately placed there, rather than just having crashed into the ship, and don’t look nearly as good, or make nearly as much sense.

It’s true that whilst the original intentions of a production are interesting and valuable… ultimately, you have to judge the material as to what it *is*, rather than what they wanted it to be. Maybe the production team did envisage the original ship to me more like the Remastered version – and that’s interesting in itself. But that means nothing when it comes to judging the actual episodes, and which I prefer. The same goes with judging the sets.

[Baz]

I always saw the asteroid as the starting point for the construction of the ship, an anchor for the expanding hull framework and the source of some of the raw materials needed to build it. Hence, when the money ran out, the remains of the rock was just left there. Makes sense that if the ship had been completed the asteroid would have been almost totally consumed, save for one or two smaller patches reserved for… I dunno, testing mining equipment, crew training areas, a raw material reserve or somewhere for Hollister to hide his donut stash.

I prefer the old Dwarf, stunted, crappy and below spec. It fitted the story, the concept of RD so much better.

[Danny Stephenson]

I always saw the asteroid as a happy accident with the mining ship. And for practising and training new recruits into mining. from a fan point of view.

[Andrew]

> I always saw the asteroid as a happy accident with the mining ship.

In the first book it’s something that hit the ship and got stuck there. For the TV show, Ed describes it being discussed early-on as something the crew would have been mining for power and for profit. (Which also explains the two bays on the second design.)

The books typically took their cue from the show (hence the grey bunks in Infinity despite the writer’s dislike to the set), so the excellent description of the ship – “a big, red, red, big clenched fist” – really only interprets what the show was already doing, regardless of anyone’s opinion of the model itself.

I know the FX guys were disappointed by the original’s lack of detail, and the new model is gorgeous in its intricacy. I”ll never get how the new version can de described as ‘sleek’ when it’s still all clunky, heavy angles. But then I don’t see how people have turned ‘pencil shaped’ into an insult, either. The Millennium Falcon is a hamburger-and-pickle shape. Things resemble other things.

I prefer the squat , original design because, yeah, it’s one of those happy accidents – it really has a hulking, ugly, brutish quality. It’s like balled up garbage, and that’s SO in-keeping with the show’s themes, deliberate or not. But the second design has a lot going for it – it’s not especially slick or sexy, it’s still bulky and anglar. And the model itself is fantastic – and all too rarely seen.

[John Hoare]

The books typically took their cue from the show (hence the grey bunks in Infinity despite the writer?s dislike to the set), so the excellent description of the ship – ?a big, red, red, big clenched fist? – really only interprets what the show was already doing, regardless of anyone?s opinion of the model itself.

This is interesting – because I’ve always read the book (and seen Rob and Doug talk about it) as being a way of correcting all this mistakes they felt they made in the first two series (such as it being Lister’s grandson, not son, who dies). And yet, yeah, they mention they grey sets, which they never liked… and change in the very next series made after the book was published!

It makes me wonder why they didn’t just change *everything* they didn’t like.

I?ll never get how the new version can de described as ?sleek? when it?s still all clunky, heavy angles.

I think it’s certainly sleek in comparison to the original design, which is perhaps where that description comes from. And regardless of the angles, it’s longer than a lot of ships too, which adds to the sleek impression. But anyway, I agree with your comments about the original design totally.

I’m looking forward to seeing the new design PROPERLY on the DVD, anyway, as it’ll be easier to judge it with a proper model shot. But it’ll still be difficult to judge it properly, when all we’ve got is that overhead shot, rather than a normal flying-through-space one.

[John Hoare]

Back to the original question: Rimmer-as-Lister’s line “I was like an animal!” in Bodyswap isn’t bad as such… but it’s blatantly clear that Craig Charles spoke the line far too quickly on the set.

[Andrew]

> when all we?ve got is that overhead shot, rather than a normal flying-through-space one.

*cough* Movie test shot! *cough*

[John Hoare]

Oooh, I FUCKING FORGOT about that one!

There’s so much on these DVDs I keep forgetting about stuff. Like when I was writing about the full content list, and had forgotten that the script extracts had a commentary track as well…

[Seb Patrick]

Back to the original question: Rimmer-as-Lister?s line ?I was like an animal!? in Bodyswap isn?t bad as such? but it?s blatantly clear that Craig Charles spoke the line far too quickly on the set.

I still wish it had just been made with the pair of them impersonating each other… but then, I suppose you’d have lost the “woman’s voice” gag from the first scene…

[pfm]

Yeah, technically they shouldn’t be using their own voice when they’re in the body of another character, but it makes it a whole lot easier for a viewer to get what’s going on.

[Danny Stephenson]

> There?s so much on these DVDs I keep forgetting about stuff.

I’m convinced that it’s gona take me at least 7 months to watch everything on those dvds.

[Paul Muller]

” *cough* Movie test shot! *cough* “

Yeah, looking forward to that.

Incidentally, was that the only piece of test footage shot for the film?

I prefer the big red red big clenched fist, but don’t mind the pencil, but that might just be because it looks slightly like an ejaculating phallus and I’m pathetic enough to find that sort of thing quite funny.

[John Hoare]

Incidentally, was that the only piece of test footage shot for the film?

Andrew, on the Webboard recently:

“I’ve only ever encountered two pieces of vis-FX text footage for the movie. One of which didn’t impress, and the other being worth sharing and thus showing on the Bodysnatcher DVD.”

When I asked whether it was physical models or CGI, he replied:

“CGI. A company tried out for the job with a Starbug test – but instead of making it fly, they hung it in space and rotated the camera around it. Which gives you no sense of
their ability to do movement.”

[Tanya Jones]

>I prefer the big red red big clenched fist, but don?t mind the pencil, but that might just be because it looks slightly like an ejaculating phallus and I?m pathetic enough to find that sort of thing quite funny.

Welcome to G&T, Paul.

[Paul Muller]

Thanks Tanya, and Thanks John that clears it up, the Starbug thing sounds understandably arse, but still think it would be cool to see because I’m THAT anal.

[Author]

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