What would Red Dwarf’s “jumped the shark” expression be?

I thought it was established as Surfing the Crocodile, thought I saw that on TV Tropes back in the day

Krytie TV the episode about Kryten filming women in the shower.

Backwards isn’t a bad shout. But also arguably the show increased in quality after that through the next few series. 

Back to Earth could be the point where it genuinely goes off the rails a little. Whilst the show has done parody in the past, it’s never fabricated show lore to do an extended parody of a movie. On top of that, uses the opportunity to do a 4th wall break, and end up on the set of Corrie. 

If it wasn’t for the fact the show had been off the air for 10 years, and it was billed as a one off special with no indication it would be back for more series 3 years later, I think we’d all be completely dumbfounded by the whole thing. And many were at the time. 

I spent the whole of the BtE weekend being baffled as to why the hell Doug was telling that story. I still feel that a bit, tbh.

Bringing back Ace and Duane would be the moment for me.

I spent the whole of the BtE weekend

Exactly 17 years ago, if you want to feel incredible old.

Backwards isn’t a bad shout. But also arguably the show increased in quality after that through the next few series.
It definitely increased in quality, but in the sense that series 3 was effectively another series 1, and the show naturally grew from that and into its new formula. 
The show had already grown in series 2, and I often wish we had just a little bit more evolution for that prototype version. 
What I wouldn’t give for an alternate series 3 in the same style, maybe with a lineup of Meltdown, Holoship, Marooned, White Hole, Dimension Jump, Justice.

Ignore the new sets and series 3 is an evolution of series 2 and would play out very very well on the original sets, which is the only thing that really sets it apart.  You have the new intro which sets the show up as being a bit more action, but when you look at the episodes with the exception of Polymorph they’re anything but action and continue to be a look at the characters stuck on the ship.

4, 5 and 6 is where the show really differs from those early years.

I’m a traditionalist on this, so to me “jumping the shark” isn’t just when the quality declines, and it’s not when a show changes in a major way, it’s when it’s so thoroughly out of ideas that they resort to writing attention grabbing but nonsensical plots that don’t fit with the usual tone/genre. In this regard Series VIII was definitely the time if it didn’t happen earlier, and no way was it Series III.

SMaC seems like a good shout, because while Ace was already established and was pretty over the top to begin with, his antics in that opening are just a full on cartoon.

III always feels defined by the cartoon zaniness of Backwards and especially Polymorph in my memory but that’s not representative of every episode.

Anyway, to go back to the expression idea, I think Red Dwarf’s “jumped the shark” moment has pretty much got to be the VIII/Remastered era. And what sums up VIII/Remastered as a whole better than the new CGI ship?

So my expression would be when Red Dwarf stretched the pencil.

Yeah I was only being silly really. Bodyswap works differently because although it’s still a fairly cartoonish premise, it grows out of the established personality-backup science of the Red Dwarf universe and (more importantly) it’s also treated with seriousness by the characters rather than feeling purely like a wacky caper.

Ignore the new sets and series 3 is an evolution of series 2

The recast Holly, the addition of Kryten, Danny’s more casual performance style and the separation of Rimmer/Lister for large stretches completely change how the show works. 

I remember watching Tikka to Ride at the time and I was stunned by how weak the ending to that episode was. The opening resolution to the cliffhanger from Series VI was also deeply underwhelming.

There were some highlights in Series VII, but that’s certainly where the quality severely dipped imo.

Kennedy assassinating himself to reset the timeline is weak?

I figured they meant the beating of Lister. It’s a random ending like a cartoon character getting chased over the horizon and That’s all Folks!, but not too different to something like Demons and Angels.

Kennedy assassinating himself to reset the timeline is weak?
I figured they meant the beating of Lister. It’s a random ending like a cartoon character getting chased over the horizon and That’s all Folks!, but not too different to something like Demons and Angels.

Yeah it’s a bit of a shit comedic tag, but as you say it’s not like Red Dwarf hasn’t don’t things like that before. Justice is the first one that springs to my mind. 

Those things don’t detract from the rest of the episode or the main story/emotional end. 

(And welcome!)

Every time I watch Tikka, it’s somehow even worse than I remember. I truly can’t fathom how anyone rates it at all, let alone as the best of VII. So yeah, VII isn’t a bad one. But I think the second half of Emohawk still stands up as a candidate. It’s the first time the show draws on its own past, to the extent that it’s three sequels in one. Yeah, they’ve joked about “you wanted characters to come back, well there they all are” or whatever, but even just acknowledging that fanbase desire feels a little desperate. The show never properly traded on its past before that, the very occasional gag aside, so to suddenly go in for its first lot of fanservice and do it so heavily, creating a half-episode that a lot of people rate among the lowest moments of the bubble, two episodes before Rob left, one of which is Rimmerworld which has also been accused of being an underdeveloped retread of earlier themes… yeah, bringing back Ace, Duane and the Polymorph still wins it for me.

The recast Holly, the addition of Kryten, Danny’s more casual performance style and the separation of Rimmer/Lister for large stretches completely change how the show works. 

That’s why it’s an evolution. Marooned, Bodyswap, Timeslides and The Last Day could very well be series 2 episodes (had Kryten been in series 2 for The Last Day). 
They have that distinct, stuck on a ship and or character driven episode quality that, whilst still present in later series is taken over by bigger sci-fi themes and more action

I remember watching Tikka to Ride at the time and I was stunned by how weak the ending to that episode was. The opening resolution to the cliffhanger from Series VI was also deeply underwhelming.
There were some highlights in Series VII, but that’s certainly where the quality severely dipped imo.

Kennedy assassinating himself to reset the timeline is weak?
Whilst the opening resolution to the cliffhanger and the assassination contradict themselves, the resolution exists as a way to quickly get the show moving again and is at least based on common paradox theory/understanding. 
I maintain Tikka is the best of VII and one of the best of Dwarf. It’s certainly an example of the show doing audienceless episodes really well, and ought to have been BTE/TPL length.

Each to their own.

Craig says in the commentary that they didn’t have an ending for Tikka to Ride and came up with something on the day (it shows). I presume Doug also wasn’t happy with it, as they recorded an additional scene a year or so later.

I have many issues with that episode, including Craig and Robert’s performances not being quite ‘right’. Probably partly due to the absence of an audience and partly due to the gap between VI and VII. 

I don’t think the ending to Tikka is all that different to other Red Dwarf episode endings. Many are abrupt if you really look back. While at the time i liked the extended ending that was filmed later, looking back now its got a lot going on in it to work as a solid ending. Maybe abrupt worked just as well?

Tikka in general i remember when i first watched it, i felt bored and couldnt figure out why. Now i know its because Tikka wanted to keep the drama high over the comedy. But i have come to appreciate what Tikka was going for and how it shows when Doug tries he can actually write a solid story. Even if he struggles to balance the comedy with it.

 I figured they meant the beating of Lister. It’s a random ending like a cartoon character getting chased over the horizon and That’s all Folks!, but not too different to something like Demons and Angels.

In D&A it feels like a vibe of “we’ll make him do some things that will annoy him and make him feel silly, the worst of which might be slapping himself in the face a few times” though, whereas Tikka is portrayed as a vicious assault. 

If you’ll permit a silly thought from a new person (hello all):
Camille. Before this point, we don’t know that there other communities in the universe. After Camille, we know that Camille and Hector are off somewhere, living with each other. Before this point, there is the possibility that the crew is completely alone (in this universe, at this point in time). After Camille, the series doesn’t feel as bleak anymore. I like the bleakness. 

Valid, but when you think about it the only reason Kryten didn’t count is because his community turned out to be already dead.

I remember watching Tikka to Ride at the time and I was stunned by how weak the ending to that episode was. The opening resolution to the cliffhanger from Series VI was also deeply underwhelming.

For me it was watching Out of Time and then Tikka to Ride back to back on DVD in 2008. I had seen both seperately before on VHS (the former countless times) but seeing them together really showed the contrast in quality.

I can enjoy Emohawk as there are plenty of laughs there, but I think it’s always worrying when a show starts trading on its former glories. Of course, we will never know whether this would have been a one off if Rob and Doug had stayed together.

As it turned out, almost all of the first 36 episodes ended up being referenced during Doug’s solo stuff (The Dibbley  family, the Om song, Talkie Toaster, Can of Worms etc.), so Emohawk seems a bad omen for what came later.

The Dibbley Family was terrible. Thats when you know you have gone way too far.

They should have included Rimmer in an Ace wig, so it could be a sequel to three sequels.

“Three-parted the episode.”

I even don’t mind the idea of Can of Worms doing the Polymorph again. Because Polymorph was a homage/parody of Alien so having sequels to polymorph sorta work in that homage.

I remember a really long time ago reading somebody complain that “Back to Earth wasn’t funny because the audience wasn’t laughing” which implies there was a studio audience that was completely dead silent the entire time.

There’s gotta be a phrase in that considering more casual fans seem to especially disdain Back to Earth (and VII, but not VIII).