Cassandra

[tombow]

I haven’t re watched S8 since it was new, but I was watching some of those blog reviews on youtube, and I remember thinking Cassandra was a pretty good episode. I thought it was the most classic-feeling ep of 6-8 at the time. I had forgotton about it until seeing it re-visited on the blog.

Topic

[Warbodog]

I watched it recently to check how rapey Rimmer was allegedly being. I still like it, though only once the mission gets underway, before that it’s pretty bad (become a dog, a capella, twisting Rimmer’s genitals).

I like that it brings back determinist time travel from series 1-2, Rimmer thinking he’s ingeniously beat the system until he realised he overlooked a small detail (I was right there with him, and there was actual jeopardy that he might die and be brought back as a hologram again), Cat whacking Lister over the head because “you can’t die” is GREAT, Kill Crazy being SO PUMPED UP and then not even making it out the door is very funny (shame he wasn’t a one-off), and Geraldine McEwan’s good even if the effect isn’t. Kochanski and Kryten don’t come out of it very well though.

[tombow]

Oh is it the one where he persuades Kochanski into bed? Oh No.

[Dave]

It is the best episode of Series VIII, which I believe has now made it into the Oxford Dictionary as a textbook example of ‘damning with faint praise’.

[tombow]

So do people generally not think Beyond a Joke is a good ep? Because I remember enjoying that one most from S7 too, for some reason. I haven’t seen it for years either (except the blog recap).

[bloodteller]

I really like Cassandra- it’s probably in my Top 10 episodes of the show, to be honest. There’s so much funny stuff and good jokes in it throughout, the plot is interesting, the Holly scene and bunkroom stuff is an absolute classic bit-it overall felt like all the things I like about Red Dwarf put into one episode

That said, I do agree Kill Crazy should have only been in this episode-he’s funny here, but his scenes in Krytie TV and Pete-Part 2 just aren’t nearly as good

[bloodteller]

How the fuck did Kill Crazy reprogram Kryten in Krytie TV anyway? They should have made it a really tech-savvy prisoner or another droid who did it, in my opinion. Not that it really changes the episode much, but it just feels bizarre that they thought a character who’s a complete moron should be the one to repogram a sentient android

[tombow]

Re-watching it now and although “that” scene is creepy, I did laugh at loud at Rimmer’s going through all the extra time he would have needed, to “2 would have done” *shamed face*

[tombow]

maybe Kill Crazy is one of those Savants with one genius skill and special needs.

[Moonlight]

Cassandra is a mediocre retread of Future Echoes that spunks its one good new idea – immortality by fate – on just a couple gags before focusing on more rapey jokes, something Series VIII is already swimming in.

Also the ending makes no fucking sense.

[International Debris]

There are plenty of good jokes and some interesting sci-fi ideas in Cassandra, which makes it head and shoulders above the rest of VIII, but there are also a lot of really terrible jokes, Kochanski used as a sex object again, the usual horrible production design, and the laziest plot-hole in the whole show in ‘Kryten figured it out’. So yeah, it’s watchable, but hugely, hugely flawed.

Beyond a Joke is shit, although I really like ‘hello wall’.

[Dave]

Also the ending makes no fucking sense.

It does, Kryten figured it out.

[Moonlight]

We’re not having this debate again, I swear to God.

[tombow]

Oh yeah, I forgot how similar to Future Echoes it is. Man I missed Rob co-writing then

[Moonlight]

I just wish Series VIII could go one episode without Rimmer forcing himself on a non-consenting woman in some manner or another.

[tombow]

even as a kid seeing Rimmer using the sex virus so much in VIII felt wrong..

[Plastic Percy]

I rather like it, on paper at least.

I think VIII could have used it’s setting better with ideas like this (as in Canary missions) coupled with ‘prison scam’ episode like Krytie TV, to make better use of the setting. Sadly, we get two stories told over five episodes taking up most of the series, not allowing much breathing room for other stories.

[tombow]

one thing that always gets me is, the gang back on a reborn S1 ship is a cool idea, and the gang spending a series on a tough prison ship is a cool idea, but why mash those 2 ideas together?

[Jawscvmcdia]

>I just wish Series VIII could go one episode without Rimmer forcing himself on a non-consenting woman in some manner or another.

Why does it bother you so much?

[bloodteller]

Just to point out, he doesn’t do anything dodgy with women in Pete-Part 1 or Pete-Part 2. So that is in fact a full two episodes without sexual assualt

[Dave]

Just to point out, he doesn’t do anything dodgy with women in Pete-Part 1 or Pete-Part 2.

Based on the other episodes though, we have to assume that it’s happening off-screen.

[tombow]

He was probably hanging around McGruder waiting for a spell of memory loss to kick in again.

[Bargain Bin Holly]

What a fantastic thread, almost like Series VIII is hated for a reason and McGruder getting retconned in Last Human was deliberate.

[Ben Paddon]

Why does it bother you so much?

The “it” you’re referring to there is rape. You’re asking why rape might bother someone. You are actively asking that question, publicly, on an internet forum at least partially operated by a man with an active interest in archiving websites for as long as possible.

This question, in all its glorious stupidity – indeed, possibly the stupidest question you’ve ever asked which, given your track record, is quite fucking impressive – will be preserved for ever.

I hope you ruminate on that for a bit, but realistically speaking you’re already thinking about the next inane thread you’re going to post. “Would you watch Red Dwarf if all the main characters were made of cheese,” style of thing.

Jesus fucking Christ.

[Flap Jack]

OK, hold on to your hats, people, but I think I just came up with a way that Kryten genuinely could have figured it out:

It’s well established that Cassandra doesn’t know the future, she effectively just sees a video feed of it in her mind.
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Since they were able to successfully trick Cassandra into believing Knott is Rimmer, it follows that she must have been unable to see the future scene where Rimmer concocted the plan, or the scene where Knott puts on Rimmer’s jacket.
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Why couldn’t Cassandra see those parts of the future specifically? Perhaps she can only see the events that she will personally witness?
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She explicitly predicts that the actual Rimmer’s death will occur in the laundry room, but Cassandra won’t be there to witness that.
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So, Kryten reasons that either Cassandra is lying, or she only foresaw herself being told that “Arnold” had died that way. If the latter is true, they can just pull the same trick that they did with the Rimmer/Knott situation. Either way, Kryten can deduce from this that Rimmer is not guaranteed to die.
(This also means she was definitely lying about Lister’s death at 181 too.)

Of course, it still sucks, because it was an off-screen resolution dismissed by a single offhand line of dialogue.

[tombow]

I remember liking the new version of Rimmer’s fling with McGruder in the Last Human novel, but I can’t remember how it went now. Obviously my bought-new-on-release-day hardback copy went to a charity shop years ago (not dissing it, I just didn’t think I’d read it again)

[International Debris]

Either way, Kryten can deduce from this that Rimmer is not guaranteed to die.

But he also deduced that Cassandra would try and make Kochanski sleep with Rimmer, which is a very, very silly leap. Nah, it’s just exceptionally bad plotting.

[Flap Jack]

Oh, it absolutely is exceptionally bad plotting. I wasn’t doubting that. But, headcanon-y explanations which vaguely make sense are there for you if you want them.

I can somewhat buy that Cassandra would try the old “self-fulfilling prophecy” gambit, but the more pertinent problems are:

– Punishing Lister by tricking him into killing Rimmer is needlessly convoluted.

– Why even bother trying when she can see the future, and therefore already knows that the plan won’t work? Is she just doing it because she’s seen that she’s going to do it? Are none of Cassandra’s actions governed by free will?

[Warbodog]

Rimmer says (guessing) that Cassandra “sees pictures of” the future, but it always seemed to me like she just knows her own personal experiences and is following the script. She knows their names (except Rimmer’s) and the events because she sees herself saying them, but maybe not things she’s not privy to.

I think the only evidence of visions is her prediction of Lister’s death choking on a bra, but that could have been part of her manipulation of Lister… somehow…

Or I’ve been getting Cassandra wrong.

[Flap Jack]

The only way “He chokes to death, aged one-hundred and eighty-one, trying to remove a
bra with his teeth” isn’t a lie is if 181 year old Lister goes back in time to when Cassandra was alive, boards the ship, and chokes to death right in front of her.

[Dave]

Or she actually could see the future in some way that isn’t dependent on her seeing something happen herself.

[Flap Jack]

It’s possible, but you’d have to come up with an alternative explanation for how Cassandra wasn’t able to see that Knott wasn’t actually called Rimmer.

[Ridley]

Maybe the pictures Cassandra sees are excerpts of scenes and she’s trying to control how the dots are joined? So she cold reads based on futures echoes? (But then that kinda muddies the reason for the Silverburg casting her adrift)

She has to be getting audio as well to know Rimmer is Arnold unless she can lip read. But then she could have stopped herself dying by stopping herself from stopping Lister leaving.

*camera explodes*

[bloodteller]

She’s like those people who try to work out the plot of a movie from just seeing the trailer

[Dave]

Maybe she’s just got a more advanced version of Kryten’s ‘best guess’ subroutine.

[Flap Jack]

It’s weird how Cassandra is a remake of Future Echoes, yet the Lister role is taken by both Rimmer and Cassandra herself.

It just doesn’t make any sense for Cassandra, because if she can see literally every detail of her own future (unlike Lister or Rimmer), changing it ought to be extremely trivial.

Assuming she has any free will at all, which the episode does.

[Author]

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