Does anybody have the full image of this?

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  • #235781

    Bargain Bin Holly

    dwarf

    Its a publicity photo of Chris Barrie as Rimmer from Series 1, its part of three as I’ve found (One is common and can be found easy on the internet as well as in the episode Back to Earth Part One, the second is another rare one and has Rimmer wearing a Red Dwarf hat he never dons in the show, third being this one)

    You can see it on this Radio Times newspaper dating to Series 1 as well.

    DWCPvk AX4 AAs8 C1 1

    Does anybody have the full photo?

    #235806

    Ben Paddon

    Interestingly, that’s not the same photo! Though they definitely came from the same photo session. The photo in the paper shows Chris’ head at an ever-so-slightly different angle, and the light is catching the crease in his tie a little differently.

    I’m sure I’ve seen the full version of this photo somewhere. Is it on the Series I DVD?

    #235818

    Bargain Bin Holly

    I can’t tell, you might be right though, I’ve got a collection of different poses Chris was in during this photo shoot but only in bits and pieces.

    rimmer hat

    Here’s the Rimmer hat photo

    Rimmer

    First full image I could find, but its in black and white, my bloody luck.

    Btw, I suspect this photo shoot with Chris, Craig, and Claire Grogan was during/after the original assembly and not the broadcast first episode, but that’s just speculation.

    #235820

    Ben Saunders

    Chris Barrie Wearing That Hat looks almost nothing like Chris Barrie

    #235825

    Toxteth O-Grady

    I used to have a postcard that featured the first image in full, although I think the background had been cut out and replaced with a grey texture.
    It was free at my local cinema, so (given that this was in 2002) I initially assumed it was to promote the then-upcoming Red Dwarf movie.

    In fact, it was to promote the upcoming release of the first series on DVD.
    To the right of Rimmer was the circular JMC logo with the mountains, and underneath read the MiB-inspired slogan “Protecting the Universe from the Scum of the Earth”.

    #235826

    Katydid

    That’s definitely his Original Assembly hairdo and not the one from the rest of Series 1.

    #235829

    GlenTokyo

    Toxteth, I thought it was that one but its different. Same shoot though surely.

    And for when that embed inevitably doesn’t work,

    https://i.imgur.com/8nfdw4Rr.jpg

    #235834

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Toxteth, I thought it was that one but its different. Same shoot though surely.

    Luckily that shot (which, yeah, is probably from the same photo shoot in all likelihood) is widely available and I have the full one here.

    rimmers costumes 2

    #235835

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Probably should’ve posted a small version

    #235838

    Toxteth O-Grady

    @glentokyo Ah, you’re right. They’re slightly different, but clearly taken within moments of each other.

    Having not seen that postcard in 15 years I’m surprised how well I’ve remembered it!

    #235841

    Lily

    >Probably should’ve posted a small version
    Nothing wrong with seeing Chris in his full technicolour shiny glory.

    Is that the hat tucked under the flappy bit on his left shoulder?

    #235842

    bloodteller

    That hat is rubbish

    #235843

    tombow

    I love how that TV listing gives Rimmer’s qualifications and keeps Cat a mystery.

    #235844

    bloodteller

    The description of the episode in that same TV listing (cropped off in the picture) was rather excellent too, I thought.

    “The mining ship Red Dwarf is an old tramp steamer, working around the moons of Saturn. It is five miles long and three miles wide, with a crew of 169. Within 24 hours, 168 of them will be dead.”

    I mean bloody hell, that certainly grabs your attention, doesn’t it? If I was around in 1988 and saw that description, I’d definitely tune in out of curiousity as to what kind of show casually advertises that its first episode contains the death of over a hundred people.

    #235845

    Dave

    I love that similar chapter ending in the first novel too.

    #235846

    Ben Saunders

    That synopsis makes it sound like a sci-fi horror rather than a comedy, that really is great

    #235847

    GlenTokyo

    I know you get shat on from a great height for suggesting such things around here, but Rob and Doug’s original conversational character humour, a few traditional ‘gags’ (Norweb, Dog’s Milk etc) with some pathos sci-fi show would have been a fantastic way for Red Dwarf to evolve. If only Craig had been able to do drama convincingly at the time. Chris certainly could, and does in those early episodes. Thanks For The Memory, Better than Life.

    The concept of Red Dwarf is a great seed for many different kinds of shows to grow from.

    #235849

    International Debris

    Oh yes, I don’t regret the fact that it became the show it did, but a series 1 & 2 style show throughout would have been wonderful. Something about the quiet loneliness of those early series is wonderful. There were hints of it in X at times, but nowhere near as well done.

    #235852

    cwickham

    Although it is very odd that the Radio Times listing tells us all that soon everyone but Lister will be dead… but the broadcast trailers carefully avoided saying so.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bugSGlLDDs

    #235853

    bloodteller

    >Something about the quiet loneliness of those early series is wonderful.

    Oh yeah, absolutely. “I knew he was dead…I mean, they’re all dead, aren’t they?” and “It’s just me, you, the Cat and a load of stupid smegging rocks” are particular lines that always stood out to me as really emphasizing how lonely their predicament is. The universe is entirely empty other than them, all their loved ones and family have been dead for millenia, and they have no way of getting back home.

    This is lost gradually over the course of the series- it’s still there somewhat in Series III, but then Series IV starts having them come across derelicts, and by VI they meet a new lifeform every week. So much for the universe being empty

    #235854

    bloodteller

    Honestly it’s surprising it takes until Timeslides for Lister to get really depressed, considering how bleak things are looking for him in Series 1 and 2

    #235855

    Lily

    Imagine if the movie had been in the style of 1&2. Two hours of bunkroom scenes about the futility of existence.

    #235856

    Bargain Bin Holly

    I’m going to take a shot in the dark and say nobody has this image then

    #235863

    Dave

    Imagine if the movie had been in the style of 1&2. Two hours of bunkroom scenes about the futility of existence.

    We certainly don’t like British comedy writers poncing around in their black T-shirts filling everyone’s cinemas with their theories about the bleakness of existence and absurdity of the cosmos.

    #235875

    International Debris

    The universe is entirely empty other than them, all their loved ones and family have been dead for millenia, and they have no way of getting back home.

    Yes, and it’s treated with a lot more gravitas than “you’re missing your species again, aren’t you sir?”
    I thought there was a touch of it in M-Corp, due to the themes of the episode. I really enjoyed that.

    #235879

    bloodteller

    >Yes, and it’s treated with a lot more gravitas than “you’re missing your species again, aren’t you sir?”

    Plus it’s harder to take the attempts at loneliness in the Dave era seriously, in my opinion- the revived crew from the end of VIII are still around, Kochanski’s still around, and even if somehow they were all dead,they meet a fuckton of humans in X-XII anyway.

    I mean Lister moping in Dear Dave, come on. He met Irene E last week, she was human and he didn’t give a shit when she was brutally and unfairly killed, so he can’t be missing mankind that much.

    #235880

    bloodteller

    Someone really should have pointed out to Lister that if he’s legitimately missing the human race that much, he could easily just use the Time Drive or the Timeslides or the Timewave or the Time Wand or the Quantum Rod or the Quantum Skipper or the Casket Of Chronos or the Rejuvination Shower or the Stasis Leak or the Stasis Booth to go back and visit them. He has all these getting-back-home/getting-my-species-back machines and doesn’t use any of them. Lister is a fucking idiot

    #235881

    GlenTokyo

    See, if they hadn’t ruined Hollister in VIII and turned him into an idiot, I’d say he could have got the crew back to Earth with good leadership. Who knows though, they could’ve managed it anyway, I mean they invented the Matter Paddle, I’m sure a Holly that’s not senile plus their scientists could probably get them back in time and back at Earth.

    #235882

    Bargain Bin Holly

    In Dave era’s defense they don’t really push the isolation element apart from a select few examples in Dear Dave and M-Corp (and there it wasn’t as explicit).

    The isolation concept went away anyways by Series II; after that they were either exploring derelict spaceships or encountering another species, rarely they were having an episode where they didn’t do something like this in III-VI apart from Marooned or White Hole.

    Series VII was the last full series I feel that actually centered on isolation, yeah they met Kochanski and were attacked by GELFs sometimes; but there were multiple times where the crew were stuck onboard Starbug for the majority of the episode (Blue, Duct Soup, Nanarchy).

    In Dave era’s defense btw, Back to Earth was one of the most effective times I felt the show conveyed isolation and abandonment especially in Part One.

    #235883

    flanl3

    I think Dave knows he could go back, and started by denying but is slowly learning that his old Earth is neither the place he belongs nor the place he wamts to be anymore. And if that doesn’t bring the loneliness thread full circle, I don’t know what will.

    #235889

    International Debris

    It’s been said before, but the idea that he’d go “y’know what, I’d rather be stuck in deep space with three people, one of whom I don’t particularly like, than actually try finding the human race again” is just madness.

    #235890

    Dax101

    Dave era Dwarf does feel abit populated. i think we seen more human guest characters in the dave era than any all of Series 1-7 combined.

    Not only that but i think the dispensing machines and other appliances that talk can take that away the loneliness factor. especially in high doses of dependency.

    #235891

    Lily

    >i think we seen more human guest characters in the dave era than any all of Series 1-7 combined.

    I make it 7 episodes with humans (with a pretty loose definition) in Dave era (8 if you include BtE as a single thing).

    Roughly 15 episodes with humans in 1-7. Series 1 naturally has a low count, but surprisingly series 4 only had 1 human episode.

    The rest averaged 2-3 human episodes per series, which is about the same as the Dave average.

    You can find my working here : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rRpqgawRF0aIx1mBOfLV_L0zf9pKVE8YMD1yOlTLiAM/edit?usp=sharing

    #235892

    Ridley

    Generally, I think, Lister should only be able to hold a full conversation with Rimmer but it’s a lot of work.

    Cat’s too self-absorbed
    Kryten’s too deferential
    And so on

    #235893

    flanl3

    It’s been said before, but the idea that he’d go “y’know what, I’d rather be stuck in deep space with three people, one of whom I don’t particularly like, than actually try finding the human race again” is just madness.

    Even if he does somewhat want to go back, he doesn’t really belong there anymore, wouldn’t fit in, and just plain isn’t ready as a person.

    #235894

    Flap Jack

    I too am seriously annoyed at the show when:

    • An entertaining variety of stuff happens in a series.
    • Character development occurs.
    • An episode happens which isn’t primarily about how sad and lonely Lister is all the time.
    • There’s technically an opportunity to do an episode which would either immediately end the show or make every episode that comes after it overwhelmingly glum, and Doug doesn’t take it.
    #235895

    Dax101

    >I make it 7 episodes with humans (with a pretty loose definition) in Dave era (8 if you include BtE as a single thing).

    Maybe using the word Human was wrong. i meant characters that had some humanity to them that allowed the universe to feel more social and busy.

    While you could say Professor Edgington and Professor Telford were Human characters that had to be killed off to keep Lister as the last human being alive, you also get characters like Rogue who turns up at Red Dwarf like their next door neighbor but don’t count as human characters.

    I think thats why most of the time in the Rob-era when they did find guest character they were often villains so you still felt like the Dwarfers had no friends in the universe and were alone.

    #235896

    Lily

    >characters that had some humanity to them that allowed the universe to feel more social and busy.

    OK, yeah I can totally agree with you there. There does seem to be less villains around and those that are, seem to get dealt with overly quickly and easily.

    #235898

    bloodteller

    The villains (and other characters) in the Dave era are silly comedy villains too, whereas in 1-8 the villains were more or less taken seriously.

    And I think it’s been said before, but the seriousness of the villains in the classic era helped make the world of Red Dwarf feel more real- it felt as if the main characters were the silly ones and a bunch of misfits, and everyone else was normal. In the Dave era everyone is an idiot or a maniac or a vehicle for social satire, which breaks the illusion that the show is taking place in a believable world.

    #235899

    bloodteller

    M-Corp especially-there’s no gravity to the reveal that M-Corp took over the entire world and enslaved billions. And later Kryten manages to easily defeat this world-conquering mega corporation within about 20 seconds of meeting them. I guess everyone on Earth in the 26th century was a fucking moron, then? It just doesn’t feel real, wheras 1-8 managed to convince me that its own story and its own world were things that existed, rather than a bunch of actors on a studio set.

    #235902

    International Debris

    Yes, it’s that ending which stops M-Corp being fantastic for me.

    The different between guests, antagonists, etc. in 1-8 Dwarf vs Dave Dwarf is less to do with the numbers, and more about where they come from, I think. Earlier episodes had much more emphasis on guests who were in some way related to the crew: Confidence & Paranoia, Me², Better Than Life, Queeg, Parallel Universe, DNA, Dimension Jump, Terrorform, Demons & Angels, Back to Reality, Rimmerworld, Out of Time and Stoke Me a Clipper all have plenty of extra characters who only exist because the main characters interacted with a certain sci-fi event or concept that created, or brought them to, these alternate versions and fictional characters. Even then, the few genuinely external characters they encountered were often as not mindless predators (Polymorph, Emohawk, Psirens) or only in the episode for a few minutes (Justice, Quarantine, Rimmerworld).

    In contrast, almost all the Dave episodes have them interacting with characters who are simply out in space, often for an entire episode. This is felt doubly so when every episode in XI features significant guest characters, and XII begins with Cured with five guests, followed by Siliconia and Twentica, in which they counter large, highly populated spaceships two weeks in a row.

    You can obviously give in-universe reasons for all this (they’re getting closer to Earth, they specifically went looking for Butler, etc.), but the overall effect is the same: the show feels more populated, and thus somewhat less about the main characters. It’s only just struck me that I love the final three episodes of XII, and they’re the ones without any truly external characters. Only Aniter in M-Corp comes close, and even she is simply an extension of the software now aboard Red Dwarf.

    #235903

    International Debris

    I guess everyone on Earth in the 26th century was a fucking moron, then?

    Actually, thinking about it, didn’t they apply a thinking tax to stop people being able to do anything about them?

    #235904

    Dax101

    Id kinda wish that Doug hadn’t said to had such a huge impact on earth since it just felt like Doug was describing how the human race fell and that was probably social satire or commentary he was getting at, but sometimes mystery is alot better than having a predicting the future message.

    It should just have been a company that existed and went bust sometime later because it is clearly useless, stupid and not very safe.

    #235907

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Ignoring the fact you gits just hijacked my thread; I think its welcomed that newer episodes start revealing more stuff that were a mystery to us, and even than M-Corp does really do that if you think about it.

    Yeah, they bought Earth, but we were already aware humans had expanded across the solar system as this point; who says many people lived on Earth beyond what Better Than Life (the novel) said about only the poor, scared, and stupid?

    In contrast, almost all the Dave episodes have them interacting with characters who are simply out in space, often for an entire episode. This is felt doubly so when every episode in XI features significant guest characters

    Well that’s kinda a blanket statement in my opinion, episodes like Samsara, Give & Take, Officer Rimmer and Can of Worms have significant guest characters but none that substantially take away from the aspect of them being in a mostly uninhabited region of space.

    Samsara has two characters alive but they were in deep sleep onboard an escape pod from presumably millions of years prior, which has been made entirely possible since The End; Give & Take only has two guest characters and they are just droids; Officer Rimmer they only meet a completely abandoned Space Corps ship that has to manufacture a new crewman, and that’s the only guest in the episode outside of a lady on television; and Can of Worms they only meet a Mercenoid and a felis sapien (Polymorph), both a droid and a GELF.

    So XI doesn’t have anything particularly out of the norm for Red Dwarf beyond going into another dimension to meet a lot of people in Twentica similar to Stasis Leak, Backwards or Lemons. I think its more XII that does the more populated space thing, and even then I think it doesn’t do anything particularly bad with it lest I repeat everything thats been said about Timewave again.

    #235909

    Dax101

    #235910

    Dax101

    >I think its welcomed that newer episodes start revealing more stuff that were a mystery to us, and even than M-Corp does really do that if you think about it.

    They say that if you give a character what they always wanted then there is nothing to chase or move towards.

    Kinda the same with mysteries.

    #235911

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Ah splendid, pray tell how’d you acquire these? Have you got anymore?

    #235912

    Dax101

    I found them on tumblr. There were other images but those are the only poses of that version I could find.

    #235913

    bloodteller

    >Yeah, they bought Earth, but we were already aware humans had expanded across the solar system as this point; who says many people lived on Earth beyond what Better Than Life (the novel) said about only the poor, scared, and stupid?

    True, but it’s a bit of a letdown to have the fate of the Earth A. not be very interesting B. revealed for basically no reason in a dialogue scene and C. be that it was taken over by a company that Kryten can destroy in 10 seconds flat.

    What was the point of revealing M-Corp to have owned Earth anyway? It just sets them up to be incredibly powerful and dangerous, which just causes further letdown in their abrupt and stupid defeat at the end. Compared to the rather clever and satisfying ending of Fathers And Suns in which similar ideas are used (using an AI’s logic against itself) the climax of M-Corp just comes across as a rushed imitation.

    #235917

    flanl3

    I mean, to be fair, it’s just said that M-Corp owned Earth, not that that was the downfall of Earth, right? It could have been just a period of history where they eventually fought back and won their freedom after many brave souls gave their lives to the think tax trying to figure out how to defeat them.

    #235925

    International Debris

    Give & Take only has two guest characters and they are just droids

    I don’t think you can really discount mechanical characters as ‘just droids’, given that one of the show’s main characters is one. I’d say they are just as valid as organic characters in the Red Dwarf universe.

    So XI doesn’t have anything particularly out of the norm for Red Dwarf

    Other than every single episode featuring an outside guest character. It’s the only series (barring 8, of course), which doesn’t feature a single episode that’s purely the main 4 / 5 characters.

    I’m not passing judgement on how successful the guest appearances are, or how they fit into the fictional universe, I’m just shedding possible light on this perception that the Dave era is more heavily populated.

    #235932

    bloodteller

    Pretty sure the only episodes in 1-7 that only feature the main characters and nobody else are Marooned, Bodyswap, Demons and Angels, Out Of Time and Duct Soup.

    #235933

    Dax101

    Its more about how they are used i think.

    You could count DNA as being one that features only the main characters since the DNA modifier had a voice but it wasn’t a character. the Curry monster was a thing but it wasn’t a character per say.

    #235935

    quinn_drummer

    Pretty sure the only episodes in 1-7 that only feature the main characters and nobody else are Marooned, Bodyswap, Demons and Angels, Out Of Time and Duct Soup.

    Future Echos … unless you’re counting future Lister and Jim and Bexley?

    Me2? … again unless you’re counting the second Rimmer?

    Thanks for the Memory? … or are we counting Lisa Yates?

    White Hole? … no-one else there.

    Blue? … unless Rimmer is at that point considered not part of the core cast.

    Nanarchy? … although again, are we not counting Holy as core cast at that point.

    I get what you’re saying re “only” featuring the main 4, but I think it stretching it a bit to count Lisa Yates as she is hardly a character and you could omit having those clips of her in the episode and the episode would still work.

    Future Lister and duplicate Rimmer are basically the same person/character – and we we’re counting Demons and Angels (despite the highs and lows being very different characters played by the same actors) then we should definitely include Me2 at least. And Jim and Bexley are in it for mere seconds so for all intents and purposes that episode is really only the core 4 cast.

    And in fact Body Swap does feature a female voice in Lister so if we are discounting brief extras like Jim and Bexley we should discount her and Bodyswap too.

    I’m not really sure what my point is other than being a little pedantic.

    #235937

    Dax101

    Well White hole had talkie toaster. its easy to forget he was there since he vanished as the white hole stuff kicked in.

    #235949

    Pete Part Three

    >White Hole? … no-one else there.

    Would anyone like any toast?

    #235950

    International Debris

    Pretty sure the only episodes in 1-7 that only feature the main characters and nobody else are Marooned, Bodyswap, Demons and Angels, Out Of Time and Duct Soup.

    Maybe I worded the statement slightly wrong, but in keeping with the rest of my point – episodes that don’t feature any ‘outside’ guests of any kind, i.e. extras that aren’t flashbacks/memories, alternate versions of the main characters, or things created by the characters. People, GELFs, droids, etc. that the main characters specifically stumble across. Episodes without:

    Future Echoes
    Balance of Power
    Me²
    Thanks for the Memory
    Queeg
    Marooned
    Bodyswap
    DNA
    White Hole
    Demons and Angels
    Out of Time
    Duct Soup
    Blue
    Nanarchy
    Dear Dave
    Mechocracy
    Skipper

    Parallel Universe and Dimension Jump are difficult as the alternate versions there are obviously very different people to the ones we’re familiar with – yet they’re still technically the same characters. Terrorform, too, doesn’t actually have any ‘real’ characters, simply embodiments of Rimmer’s neuroses.
    VIII is difficult to judge, but if we count the whole crew of Red Dwarf as the ‘main’ characters, then Back in the Red I-III, Krytie TV and Pete I & II also fit the bill. BtE doesn’t really work as it’s only one story anyway.

    Which just leave XI as the only series where they meet at least one completely new, outside character each week. Admittedly it’s only for a few seconds in Samsara, but even then we’re given half an episode’s worth of plot for them tying in with the main story.

    #235956

    Lily

    I think since we’re talking about the perceived population of space, I would count episodes that they meet something new as populated, and ones where it’s duplicates of themselves, or flashbacks or time travel as unpopulated.

    Series 1-3 : Space is empty, Crew are alone except for the eps Kryten, Polymorph and Last Day. (Backwards is time travel, Better than Life is VR etc.)

    Series 4-6 : Space is populated. Crew meets new stuff actually in their bit of space in all except White Hole, Demons & Angels, Out of Time.

    Series 7-9 : Space is empty. Crew are alone except for Stoke, Ouroboros, Epideme, Cassandra, Only the Good and BtE part 3.

    Series 10-12 : Space is populated : Crew meets new stuff in their bit of space in all except Fathers & Suns, Lemons, Dear Dave, Mechocracy and Skipper.

    #235960

    quinn_drummer

    Parallel Universe and Dimension Jump are difficult as the alternate versions there are obviously very different people to the ones we’re familiar with – yet they’re still technically the same characters

    I’d say they’re different enough to be different characters that you count as “meeting someone knew”, though in DJ the only character our crew meets is Ace, and no-one would confuse him with our Rimmer.

    Terrorform everything is created by Rimmer’s mind, so yeah it’s a bit tricky, but still relies on their being a monster/threat etc, and obviously the episode would be completely lost without the 2 semi naked girls oiling Rimmer.

    #236009

    Warbofrog

    Even though they’re not characters, coming across Space Corps derelicts every other week in VIII (and in Out of Time) makes space feel less empty than I-III where they only found Kryten. VII’s in the same RPG/Star Trek-style space as VI with Kinitawowi and prowling Simulants, just with weeks off.

    #236032

    bloodteller

    I think the emptiness still works to an extent when there’s a fair explanation for what a ship is doing so far out into deep space, e.g. the Gemini 12 was sent on autopilot as far away as possible so nobody ever found the Time Drive, and the Silverberg also being sent on autopilot to get rid of Cassandra. Hudzen-10 was tracking Kryten so it makes sense he ended up in deep space, and you’d obviously want the Polymorph as far away from any human contact as possible.

    When a ship is inexplicably just out there with no explanation e.g. the ERRA Station, the Samsara, it makes it feel more populated I think. What are they doing there? Why are they so far out into space?

    #236034

    Dax101

    >When a ship is inexplicably just out there with no explanation e.g. the ERRA Station, the Samsara, it makes it feel more populated I think.

    Well the show has done that quite a few times. The Nova 5 being the earliest example.

    #236035

    Dave

    I liked that the novels tried to provide some explanation for the Nova 5 being all the way out there.

    #236036

    Flap Jack

    I think we need to make it clear that “I can’t swallow that the Dwarfers would bump into so many other sentient beings out in deep space” and “I prefer the atmosphere and tone of the show when it seems that the crew are alone” are distinct complaints.

    For the former, well, nothing about the show makes 100% logical sense if you dwell on it. You can decry how unlikely it is for Red Dwarf to meet other ships or settlements in the Dave era, but even in Series 1-2, when you consider how impossibly massive and empty space is, the chance that they would even stumble across a single moon is (ahem) astronomically small, let alone stumble across the Nova 5 or another ship that has an AI that Holly can play correspondence chess with.

    So trust me, if you can accept that an entire species of humanoid cats can evolve from just a single pregnant cat over just 3 million years and within the confines of a spaceship, leaving just 1 or 2 members on the ship at the exact time that the radiation has become safe, then you can buy when they bump into the odd human.

    As for the latter complaint… there’s only so many stories you can tell and make funny with just the main cast, the ship, and no outside influence. Perhaps there are still some places they could still go with that idea, but no way would the show have the longevity and broad appeal it has without GELFs, simulants, mechanoids, and yes, the occasional human. (Except the Enconium crew. Fuck those guys.)

    Though really, if you’re part of Red Dwarf fandom now, your opinion probably isn’t so extreme that you want Red Dwarf to always be Series 1 style, you just want the ratio of busy to empty pushed the other way a bit. Fair enough I suppose.

    Wait, where was I going with this?

    #236037

    GlenTokyo

    Gordon came on a disc with the post pod.

    #236038

    Dax101

    I don’t mind having guest character. but the show does feel abit dependant on them now for Comedy.

    #236039

    Dax101

    These days anyway.

    #236041

    Lily

    I think it goes back to something Dax said earlier. It’s not that the universe is more populated now, just that it’s friendlier.

    Comparing 10-12 with 4-6 (which I believe are most similar to Dave era in style and stories), the earlier series only had two episodes with purely friendly/neutral guests, Ace Rimmer and the Holoshop crew. Demons & Angels and Meltdown had a mix and all the rest had something or someone trying to kill/imprison them.

    In 10-12 there’s a lot more episodes where there’s friendly ‘people’, Lemons, Samsara, Krysis,Timewave all have little peril and just a nice jaunt out. Even if there is a villian, there’s often a friendly person balancing it out. Trojan, Entangled, Twentica, Give & Take, Officer Rimmer, Cured etc. There’s very few episodes where there’s just them vs evil.

    So it’s not how many humans/whatever there are, it’s just that they’re all a lot nicer than before.

    Is Doug getting soft in his old age? :)

    #236042

    quinn_drummer

    I honestly can’t believe that, in 30 years, Doug hasn’t once been tempted by the idea of stumbling across (at least some) of the Cat race. It would make for a proper decent Cat episode (that I guess we thought we’d get with Can of Worms). He might decide he wants to stay with his people, then realise that he has absolutely nothing in common with them or their society, and comes back to Lister et al.

    Giving that, not long before Lister came out of stasis (presumably) there was a civil war amongst the Cat people (which was hundreds of years ago to them now) they could discover a settlement or tribe descended from the bloodiest of the warriors. Might get a little Klingon but would be interesting just to see SOMETHING of what happened to this entire species that is out there somewhere.

    #236046

    Dax101

    Well the fact that in 30 years it hasn’t happened and when Doug get close to doing it then it just ended up being a polymorph… i dunno if Doug really wants to bring back the cat race.

    Then again i can imagine it would end up similar to siliconia where Kryten finds alot of other krytens with several extras everywhere.

    I say leave the Cat race alone sadly.

    #236047

    Ben Saunders

    The One Where Everyone’s Cat

    #236048

    clem

    > I honestly can’t believe that, in 30 years, Doug hasn’t once been tempted by the idea of stumbling across (at least some) of the Cat race

    We nearly got Identity Within in VII, so we know Doug isn’t averse to the idea. Or at least he wasn’t as recently as 21 years ago.

    #236049

    Pete Part Three

    >We nearly got Identity Within in VII

    Bullet dodged.

    #236050

    Dax101

    I can’t help but think Identity Within might have been a stronger Cat episode then Can of Worms.

    #236051

    Lily

    >We nearly got Identity Within

    I literally only watched that for the first time last night. I rip my DVDs and hadn’t bothered with that at the time. Looked it up again last night on a whim.

    Seemed a great story to me and a far more interesting spin on a female cat than the Can of Worms version.

    Interestingly, 45 minutes long, so would have needed some serious hacking about to get down to broadcast length. Makes me wonder how many other longer scripts have been brutalized to get down under 30.

    #236056

    tombow

    I just remembered, 15 years ago, I stayed at a friends house who had an old Red Dwarf role playing book I’d never seen before, and I stayed up reading it. I had some really interesting mythos in it, like different animal-evolved people such as the rabbits from the ship the Captain mentioned (forgot name) who have become a super-competent engineer/tech race who all look like Tim Spall with big front teeth and overalls. I haven’t thought about that book in years.

    #236057

    tombow
    #236058

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Identity Within would’ve been a great episode tbh, better than most of VII I bet (and I like most of VII).

    If I’d have to guess for what scenes would be cut to shorten it, I’d say the bit with Kryten and his wind-wipper nipples; though I do wonder if the storyboards just stretch the run-time than the show would regularly last.

    #236059

    Bargain Bin Holly

    I honestly can’t believe that, in 30 years, Doug hasn’t once been tempted by the idea of stumbling across (at least some) of the Cat race

    Even weirder considering the outcry of fans wanting to see it happen, maybe Doug just wants to fuck with us.

    #236060

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Like the amount of ideas you could generate with the plot of the crew stumbling on the Cat race inhabiting a planet or something is astronomical

    #236061

    bloodteller

    Yeah, I rather enjoyed Identity Within too. Seems like it would have been a pretty good episode

    #236064

    Katydid

    But the problem is it wasn’t funny. And later drafts would have traded Rimmer for Kochanski in what I can only imagine massively improved it on that front.

    Chalk it up to the storyboard episode being a first draft without Doug’s refinement if you like, but I feel decidedly more underwhelmed by it than I do by even Duct Soup. The dialogue really does feel imitation-Dwarf in a way that’s off-putting wrong to my ears.

    #236068

    tombow

    maybe they struggled to find a way to make multiple cats funny. Like one sharp suited pop star ish guy reacting with normal people is funny. But make a group of them and what can you do, other than they may be jealous of each other or something. Like when you have a group of pop stars together on a charity single they kind of don’t stand out anymore.

    #236069

    bloodteller

    I thought “Oh, I thought it was purely ceremonial. Like the Gay Gordons” was a funny line, and that was from Identity Within. There are probably others but that stuck out to me as being rather amusing

    #236075

    quinn_drummer

    maybe they struggled to find a way to make multiple cats funny

    The answer to that is to not have them all like Cat. Make the species multi faceted. Especially after several hundreds of years since leaving Red Dwarf. Still have the cool and stylish element there, but give them more depth and have each character more individually different.

    Also, they don’t necessarily need to be funny. Remember the good old days where the characters the crew met were played straight and it was the situation / reaction that was funny?

    #236076

    bloodteller

    >Remember the good old days where the characters the crew met were played straight and it was the situation / reaction that was funny?

    Yeah, but this is new-age Red Dwarf now, so if there’s a Cat people episode they’ll all have to be totally zany, act like utter fucking maniacs and behave in a manner that only cartoon characters would, and then abruptly be murdered at the end of the episode. And there’ll have to be some sort of attempt at irreverent social satire thrown in there for no real reason, too

    #236077

    Dax101

    Well the Cat priest wasn’t zany and even the Cat characters in identity within were not zany either… but yeah i agree if Doug did it today there would be a room full of zany Cat people that Lister, Rimmer and Kryten just look at each other with confusion over.

    #236081

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Glad to see G&T is its same cynical self today

    #236101

    International Debris

    Though really, if you’re part of Red Dwarf fandom now, your opinion probably isn’t so extreme that you want Red Dwarf to always be Series 1 style, you just want the ratio of busy to empty pushed the other way a bit. Fair enough I suppose.

    Basically. Had Timewave been replaced with an episode that only had one or two guests (Give & Take, say), then XII would have got the balance right: a few small-scale guest episodes, a larger scale guest episode, and a couple of crew-centric episodes.

    Identity Within really reminds me of Last Human, right down to the bustling planet and lack of jokes.

    #236102

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Last Human had jokes tho, even ignoring the recycled ones from episodes which all the novels did, there’s the bit with Kryten and the GELF Regulator where he says he imprisoned Lister for killing him, Kryten trying to fight back against evil Lister but can’t due to his programming (which may I add is some nice continuity that references how Lister hasn’t helped Kryten develop emotions in the novels like he did in the show), the national secret being known by everybody President Nixon talks to (which was later reused for Captain Hollister in Back in the Red)

    You might not like the jokes but they’re there

    #236104

    Pete Part Three

    Identity Within reminds me of Siliconia, actually. Right down to the stupid fight scene that doesn’t belong there.

    #236106

    Bargain Bin Holly

    I’d imagine a fight scene would look pretty choppy in storyboard form

    #236107

    International Debris

    It’s been a very long time since I read Last Human, so there may well be jokes in there. My overriding memory of it is being epic and daring and not especially funny.

    #236108

    Bargain Bin Holly

    It definitely is more focused on action, of course, so you’re not wrong in remembering it as mostly that.

    #236115

    bloodteller

    I remember liking Last Human when it wasn’t just being directly copied-and-pasted scenes from the TV series

    #236199

    Plastic Percy

    I understood that Cat was generally the opposite of the rest of Felis Sapiens, given they all seemed to live by Cloister’s sacred law of “Thou Shalt Not Be Cool” and stuff.

    #236206

    Flap Jack

    Based purely on Cat’s “The Holy Mother? The virgin birth? No one believes that stuff!” line, I’ve always assumed that – while it obviously still had a lot of religiously devout folk – the cat race had become a largely secular society (or at least, a less orthodox one) by the time everyone abandoned Red Dwarf.

    So it makes sense to me that a lot of if not most of the cat race would be similar to The Cat in terms of coolness and general mannerisms.

    Though of course, there must be some things about The Cat that are unique if he was only one of 2 cat people to stay on the ship.

    I think if Doug did a cat race episode now, he could definitely walk the line of having the other cats still he “cool” while also being clearly different to The Cat. Maybe they’d just be more intelligent, less easily distracted, more community minded, just a shade less egotistic, that sort of thing.

    #236211

    Dax101

    Well its understandable the Cat race would have similarities since they are all cats and probably should have similar traits that doesn’t make them seem to normal… but when it comes to just how zany you could go with them i think how Doug handled the Cat lady (who was really a polymorph) in Can Of Worms could end up being abit too zany if thats the direction he took for all of them.

    #236213

    Flap Jack

    It’s definitely possible Doug would ruin the other cats by making them too zany.

    It’s also possible that the Cat Polymorph’s zaniness was only there because that’s what would seduce The Cat, and is not a fair indicator of how Doug would write other cat characters.

    #236215

    GlenTokyo

    All he’d have to do is look at actual cats and apply that to people and attribute some human character to them.

    There are some cats like Cat, quite aloof, don’t really pay much attention to their owners, stop to clean often.

    Other cats are just lazy and slob about like Lister, some are violent, some are needy etc.

    Just having bad impressions of Danny would be terrible when you look at the various character traits of an actual cat never mind a humanoid version who no doubt would be a lot more complex.

    Done right I think it’d be really interesting.

    #236230

    Hamish

    Yeah, go back to the drawing board and follow an actual cat around for a few days. Then write the cat race based around that.

    #236239

    Plastic Percy

    <<Based purely on Cat’s “The Holy Mother? The virgin birth? No one believes that stuff!” line, I’ve always assumed that – while it obviously still had a lot of religiously devout folk – the cat race had become a largely secular society (or at least, a less orthodox one) by the time everyone abandoned Red Dwarf.>>

    Well, when they left Red Dwarf they were still split into the red/blue factions, and they were on a mass exodus to discover their promised land. That strikes me as fairly devout. And they were also willing to take Lister’s laundry list as a believable holy relic.

    #236241

    Flap Jack

    Well, when they left Red Dwarf they were still split into the red/blue factions, and they were on a mass exodus to discover their promised land. That strikes me as fairly devout. And they were also willing to take Lister’s laundry list as a believable holy relic.

    Ah, yes, I completely forgot that was the reason they all left the ship! I am dumb. But how do we reconcile that with Cat’s line about nobody believing it?

    Option A – Most of the cats genuinely didn’t believe it, but enough of the leaders, politicians etc. were religiously devout to rope everyone else into the Red Hat/Blue Hat civil war anyway.

    Option B – As the cat priest said that Cat was born after the Red Ark/Blue Ark exodus, perhaps not only “the sick and the lame” stayed behind. Perhaps there were also a significant number of atheists and conscientious objectors who also stayed behind, and Cat was raised in that sort of environment, before the rest of the cats either died or left Red Dwarf as well for different reasons.

    I know that the priest’s line “they left us to die” would suggest there weren’t many fit and healthy cats left behind who could look after him, but it could also just be exaggeration, or maybe he’s just talking about dying a normal death as opposed to finding Fuchal.

    Option C – The Cat is actually the only one who was sceptical about the Frankenstein/Cloister story, but he’s egotistical enough that he just assumed everyone else agreed with him.

    #236242

    Warbofrog

    The cat religion is all about them repressing their natural instincts, which is apparently to be like Cat (only maybe smarter).

    From the first novel:

    The invention which proved the turning point in Cat history wasn’t Fire or the Wheel: it was the Steam-operated Trouser Press.

    the Seven Cat Commandments: ‘Thou shalt not be cool; Thou shalt not be in vain; Thou shalt not have more than ten suits; Thou shalt not partake of carnal knowledge with more than four members of the opposite sex at any one session; Thou shalt not slink; Thou shalt not hog the bathroom; and Thou shalt not steal another’s hair-gel.’

    In the Dark Ages of religious intolerance, these laws were laid down by Cat priests to keep their race in check. It was only through denying certain lusts, certain natural urges to be cool and stylish, they said, that a Cat could find redemption. Strict punishments were meted to transgressors: Cats caught slinking in public would have their shower units removed; Cats condemned as vain would have their hair-driers confiscated, and be forced to wear fashions some two or three seasons old.

    © Grant Naylor etc.

    #236255

    International Debris

    Cat encountering some Cat zealots who forced him to not be cool (with the rest of the crew, despite preferring his new, less narcissistic side, encouraging him to go back to ‘normal’ because it’s the true him at the end) could be a genuinely interesting episode.

    #236262

    Flap Jack

    I’m now imagining other cats reacting to Duane Dibbley. They’d probably see him as some sort of wise monk.

    #236264

    quinn_drummer

    Maybe that’s why Cat hallucinates himself as Duane, that is the sort of cat persona he was rebelling against as a kitten before they all buggered off and left him

    #236266

    Bargain Bin Holly

    I’m now imagining other cats reacting to Duane Dibbley. They’d probably see him as some sort of wise monk.

    I hope Doug is writing this down

    #236269

    quinn_drummer

    I hope Doug is writing this down

    We need to get it in the idea for an episode thread for maximum visibility

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