Doug had updated his Twitter

[loadoftottnumb]

https://twitter.com/dougrdnaylor/status/1670844370780667936?s=46&t=hK16mSlA7wC-Avokc1jP4A

I reckon it’s a new character called Frank. 

Topic

[Dave]

“Doug has also co-written some low-selling novels.”

[Rushy]

I’m frankly gobsmacked that Richard had to convince Doug to keep the moonlight scene. From the way Doug describes it, he had written it in a vacuum with no clue as to where it will fit in, and didn’t realise it was the integral moment of pathos between the two characters until Richard said so. 

God, this man needs an editor so badly. 

[Rudolph]

“Doug has also written three best selling novels”
What’s the third one, besides Last Human and Sin Bin Island?

Half of Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers, and half of Better Than Life, adds up to one, I suppose.

[Asclepius]

I’m frankly gobsmacked that Richard had to convince Doug to keep the moonlight scene. From the way Doug describes it, he had written it in a vacuum with no clue as to where it will fit in, and didn’t realise it was the integral moment of pathos between the two characters until Richard said so. 
God, this man needs an editor so badly. 

Doug is a brilliant writer whose chief flaw is not being the best judge of his own work.

[Asclepius]

P.s. do listen to the interview. It’s really interesting, partly from a writing point of view, but also because I’ve never heard him going into so much detail about the time and the machinations if the break up.

[Dax101]

It is a little frustrating to hear one of the stand out parts in The Promise Land wouldn’t have been in the script at all if someone didn’t suggest it to Doug. The guy has been making Red Dwarf since 1988 and the idea of that line almost seemed risky to him.

[Podey]

What did he say about the break up?

[Asclepius]

What did he say about the break up?

Give it a listen. The relationship with Rob is a theme throughout, and it’s well worth 45 minutes of your time.

[Turk Thrust]

It is indeed an interesting interview.

Obviously Rob and Doug had their issues over the years, but I was a little surprised that this is probably the most negative that I have heard him be about Rob and the breakup. Not that I’m saying that anything he said was untrue (and maybe he was filter free the day after he learned about Rob’s death).

A little bit of a shame that Sinbin Island 2 won’t be published until 2027, but looking forward to it nevertheless.

[Rushy]

What did he say about the break up?

“They say we broke up because of creative differences. Well, that’s news to me because I don’t remember us having any!”

He cites Rob’s increasing (and unexplained) refusal to work as the cause behind the breakup. It started with Rob wanting to do scripts and book chapters without having to meet Doug. But the material he produced on his own for both Last Human and 10 %ers was apparently “unspeakably bad”. 

The studio pushed for Rob to edit his scripts and he resigned (suddenly leaving Doug in charge alone). Doug pushed for Rob to edit the book and he told Doug to write the book himself. 

[Dax101]

It is indeed an interesting interview.
Obviously Rob and Doug had their issues over the years, but I was a little surprised that this is probably the most negative that I have heard him be about Rob and the breakup.

I think that’s because Doug has always said to ask Rob when he was asked about it, but now you can’t just go ask Rob, so Doug is the only person who can reflect on that period.
Maybe he is a bit frustrated that he will likely never know what was going on with Rob at the time.

[Turk Thrust]

It is indeed an interesting interview.
Obviously Rob and Doug had their issues over the years, but I was a little surprised that this is probably the most negative that I have heard him be about Rob and the breakup.

I think thats because Doug always just said go ask Rob when asked about it, but now you can’t just go ask Rob so Doug really is the only person who can reflect on that period.
Maybe he is a bit frustrated that he will likely never know what was going on with Rob at the time.

Yes, that could certainly be true. Especially as Rob later formed a writing partnership with Andrew Marshall.

Plus, as Rob and Doug broke up while working on The 10%ers, it can’t really have primarily been down to Rob wanting to work on things other than Red Dwarf (as he sometimes said in interviews).

I can understand that Doug’s emotions must have been all over the place when he did this interview.

[Rushy]

My personal suspicion is that the pressure began to get to Rob, and he either couldn’t or wouldn’t admit that he was procrastinating. 

[Moonlight]

My personal suspicion is that the pressure began to get to Rob, and he either couldn’t or wouldn’t admit that he was procrastinating. 

Doug seems to handle the pressure of making the show given he didn’t flee the country during the production of Series X.

[Dax101]

Might be the pressure of success. Maybe Rob as a person just carried more weight in desiring to progress.

With Series 7 and 8, Doug was really only making the show to get the episode numbers up so they could get funding for a movie. In the fanclub magazine he pretty much said he was done with the show and just wanted to do movies. But I suspect once it become clear the movie was not likely to happen, Doug started to see the show in a more valuable creative way. I put it down to Doug getting unmade movie blue balls :p

[Technopeasant]

[Asclepius]

The idea that Doug was having to write individual episodes The 10%ers to have them approved by Rob and the manager (?) seems a) really mad but also b) does suggest that there may have been some writer’s block going on with Rob at the time. Someone above suggested the pressure of being successful and needing to keep being so. Easier to disguise writer’s block if you’re working on your own than with others.

[JimReaper]

I’d very gently suggest – from what Doug says here and what Craig said recently in his tribute – that it seems as if Rob maybe had a work related mental health crisis in an era where such things were not as readily recognised and pulled away / shut down in an act of self preservation. But the deadlines and commitments GNP had made had to be maintained, which meant Doug was left to carry everything or face the consequences. It sounds horrible all round.

It would explain the sudden break up and the lack of explanations that Doug and the cast received about what happened with Rob. The man might have been unwell for a while. 

I’ve worked as a TV writer for years (nothing glamorous, mostly BBC Continuing Dramas) and have experienced a fraction of the success that Rob & Doug had but I know how awful, unrelenting and suffocating the pressures can be. The desire to shut down and just run away is real. I’ve come close to doing that a number of times and had a breakdown myself after writing for a certain Saturday-night-hospital-based-drama known for treating its writers very badly.

Both Rob (RIP) and Doug have my utmost sympathy for what they went through in 1994.

[Ian Symes]

We’ll never know for sure, but I think that’s very feasible. I’ve been thinking about this a lot since Rob died, especially as we’ve been revisiting the build-up to the split in our Smegazine and Re-Disc-Overy casts, plus reading up on the Grant Naylor years for the obituary. If it is the case that Rob was unwell, then I can totally understand why he needed to suddenly break away. I can also totally understand how tough that would have been for Doug to be left to pick up the pieces. It would have perfectly reasonable for both of them to feel resentful towards the other, and it’s naturally going to damage a friendship. It’s just really, really sad that they never worked through it, and never got back what they once had.

[JimReaper]

It makes me sad too Ian. The pain was real but always seemed mixed in with real love as well… It’s all such complicated stuff.

We’ll never know for sure, but I think that’s very feasible. I’ve been thinking about this a lot since Rob died, especially as we’ve been revisiting the build-up to the split in our Smegazine and Re-Disc-Overy casts, plus reading up on the Grant Naylor years for the obituary. If it is the case that Rob was unwell, then I can totally understand why he needed to suddenly break away. I can also totally understand how tough that would have been for Doug to be left to pick up the pieces. It would have perfectly reasonable for both of them to feel resentful towards the other, and it’s naturally going to damage a friendship. It’s just really, really sad that they never worked through it, and never got back what they once had.

[Asclepius]

We’ll never know for sure, but I think that’s very feasible. I’ve been thinking about this a lot since Rob died, especially as we’ve been revisiting the build-up to the split in our Smegazine and Re-Disc-Overy casts, plus reading up on the Grant Naylor years for the obituary. If it is the case that Rob was unwell, then I can totally understand why he needed to suddenly break away. I can also totally understand how tough that would have been for Doug to be left to pick up the pieces. It would have perfectly reasonable for both of them to feel resentful towards the other, and it’s naturally going to damage a friendship. It’s just really, really sad that they never worked through it, and never got back what they once had.

A tiny, tiny bit of solace, and they’re not things I’m massively familiar with, but they didn’t they bat around – and completely? – an old script – Bodysnatcher? – some years back. And do some tie-in DVD commentaries? Hopefully that was a pleasant memory for Doug. But obviously whatever legal issued occurred more recently with GNP (and Doug stating he much he spent on legal fees in that interview) may have spoiled thar small bit of niceness…

[Jonathan Capps]

It definitely used to be a lot more fun to speculate about this.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Doug never seems to give a favourable account of other people’s side of a story, always points fingers and never accepts any blame. He also seems somewhat prone to a little exaggeration so I’ll always take whatever he says with a little scepticism. 

If you feel wrong you always inflate the importance of the negative stuff in that situation and over the years a twisted version of that truth is what he has come to believe. Whilst I’m sure his interpretation of the events at the time are partly or mostly true, I’d try and imagine what might have been happening from Rob’s perspective and see if Doug’s version makes complete sense 

[Turk Thrust]

Well, yeah, I think there is a grain of truth in that Doug does tend to try to absolve himself from blame. I can only remember once in the DVD documentaries where he says, “That was me.” (Putting the skutter into the Remastered ‘The End’)

Not that I’m judging Doug for this specific interview as his feelings must have been very raw at the time.

I agree that it is very feasible that Rob was feeling the pressure in 1993/4. Especially considering how many projects he and Doug were linked to.

And it did seem a little odd a few years ago that from the outside Rob, Ed, and Paul seemed to be the ones representing Red Dwarf with Doug alone in the wilderness. I think there was a Paul Jackson interview about 10 years ago that was discussed on here where he talked about Doug and Ed having a problem with each other. The response was, “Eh? But they recorded the Bodysnatcher commentaries together?”

I’m sure the whole thing is very nuanced and is much more complicated than one person being wrong or right. I guess, generally speaking, it’s difficult to work with other people and it’s not really natural to have working relationships that last for decades. It’s almost inevitable that there will be bumps in the road.

[Dax101]

While Rob, Ed and Paul celebrated their past involvement, i always assumed Doug preferred to look at the future with the show. Since Doug was writing, directing and producing the show, and his own Son is also producing the show, it almost becomes a new, very different era because of that. Doug spent more time with the cast who he was still working with rather than other creatives who worked on the show in the past. So Ed Bye really wasn’t needed. But i doubt Ed has any issue with Doug, though

[Rushy]

Since Doug was writing, directing and producing the show

So Ed Bye really wasn’t needed. 

Tbh, once the major budget issues of Back to Earth/X were resolved, I feel it was a huge mistake not to draw Ed back in. 

Doug has directed, but he’s not a professional director. 

[Asclepius]

Since Doug was writing, directing and producing the show
So Ed Bye really wasn’t needed. 

Tbh, once the major budget issues of Back to Earth/X were resolved, I feel it was a huge mistake not to draw Ed back in. 
Doug has directed, but he’s not a professional director. 

Hard agree. He might have had more success with all of the last-minute-rewrites (how many episodes did that happen to?!) if he hadn’t been directing at the same time. But I gather the directing and writing aspect was partly to save money, wasn’t it?

[Turk Thrust]

Since Doug was writing, directing and producing the show
So Ed Bye really wasn’t needed. 
Tbh, once the major budget issues of Back to Earth/X were resolved, I feel it was a huge mistake not to draw Ed back in. 
Doug has directed, but he’s not a professional director. 

Hard agree. He might have had more success with all of the last-minute-rewrites (how many episodes did that happen to?!) if he hadn’t been directing at the same time. But I gather the directing and writing aspect was partly to save money, wasn’t it?

From what I remember, Doug was also planning to direct the movie, so I don’t think it was primarily about money.

And Doug said he loved directing Back to Earth, so I doubt he would have considered handing the job to someone else.

[Rushy]

I understand Doug’s reasoning. He wrote it, therefore he’s in the best position to know what he wants. But it was not one of his better judgment calls. 

Parts of Out of Time were written while being filmed. Pete Parts 1 and 2 are as much a Frankenstein script as anything in Series X. But they’re still considerably more polished in terms of direction. They achieve verisimilitude whereas even the best Dave efforts often feel as though the actors are directing themselves, to say nothing of the copious editing errors and occasional staging malfunctions like the Twentica ceiling and Barrie “switching” off from soft light after it’s already happened. 

[Dave]

the Twentica ceiling

I’m hearing this to the tune of Wichita Lineman.

[Asclepius]

I see what you mean about the later directing. I don’t mind it tbh, and it recreates a bit of the feel of early Dwarf. To me, anyway.

The thing I *don’t* like about it is the effort it clearly took Doug to write and direct at the same time. I think it’s to the show’s detriment. I don’t know the order Series 11 and 12 were filmed in, but certainly the stinkers are in the second half of that pack suggesting a) that he was running out of ideas/time and b) that he remains not the best judge of his own best work, or he’d have staggered the episodes differently (see also the ‘Moonlight’ speech at the halfway point in Season 13, which he wasn’t going to originally include)*

*I included the phrase “the ‘Moonlight’ speech at the halfway point in Season 13″ purely to encourage angry coughing fits in its readers. I provide no apologies :D

[International Debris]

I can get behind series 13, but let’s not get into seasons

[Asclepius]

I can get behind series 13, but let’s not get into seasons

I’ll let you have that.

Procrastinating with some work that I can’t be bothered to do, I had a nose at your profile as I recognise your name from lots of Dwarfcasts..and I’ve been going through your Bandcamp since. I really, really like your work. I couldn’t even begin to explain why (I’m not good at writing about music, and I particularly don’t get why I like some ambient work but not others), but it’s really good stuff.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

> They achieve verisimilitude whereas even the best Dave efforts often feel as though the actors are directing themselves

I think this comes down to a lack of quality rehearsal time to be honest. 

Directing isn’t just telling the actors what to do, but managing all the departments to get the vision you have on screen. I think that’s where Doug has fallen over in terms of his own time resource.

Whilst he will have worked with the cast to bring the script to life, their performance and delivery will be better the more prep time they have, and from a lot of the accounts I’ve heard they just didn’t have the same amount of time to rehearse scripts of scenes. With guest cast turning up on the day to film with no rehearsal at all. 

[International Debris]

I can get behind series 13, but let’s not get into seasons

I’ll let you have that.
Procrastinating with some work that I can’t be bothered to do, I had a nose at your profile as I recognise your name from lots of Dwarfcasts..and I’ve been going through your Bandcamp since. I really, really like your work. I couldn’t even begin to explain why (I’m not good at writing about music, and I particularly don’t get why I like some ambient work but not others), but it’s really good stuff.

Oh, thank you! 🩷 Very kind of you, glad you’re enjoying!

[gerrydelasel]

“I can co-write mildly amusing dialogue”….    ‘co’ being the operative word

[Moonlight]

to say nothing of the copious editing errors and occasional staging malfunctions like the Twentica ceiling

XI/XII have a lot of weird issues that suggest they were rushed in post, and I suspect that ceiling was meant to be replaced with a sky in the same way all that obvious temp music (especially in XII) was meant to replaced with Howard’s score.

[Dax101]

To he fair they filmed XI and XII at the same time and they had XII sitting on a shelf for a full year. I suspect they had plenty of time for post production with that one. So the choice with music likely had nothing to do with rushing.

[Moonlight]

I suspect that they were forced to lock both series for broadcast at the same time. Why let XII sit around unfinished for a year and then call everybody back to finish it instead of just doing it alongside XI?

Doubly so because a lot of the weird music choices in XI / XII (spamming the same music cue or recycling old ones where new ones were composed) make absolutely no goddamn sense to me unless they’re temp edits that never got finished. If you were going to just recycle old transitional cues why wouldn’t you make any attempt to vary them, and bookend scenes with the same one on both sides?

Also, XI uses markedly more of Howard’s new music than XII does, which is very odd.

[Technopeasant]

It definitely used to be a lot more fun to speculate about this.

Real life has that annoying quirk.

[Author]

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