Mundane observation dome

[Warbodog]

Do you have any miscellaneous insights on the series that may be worth contemplating for a few seconds before moving on with our lives? Here are some of mine.

1. The four regulars have names that can work any way around, though this would have been more obvious if David Ross had stayed and wouldn’t work if Chris Barrie used his real name.

2. The series’ lax attitude to continuity extends to the setting. Outside of Holly’s distress calls, I don’t think three million years is mentioned all that much after series I and before VI (not sure about later years). Instead, we get the extremely fudged “dead for centuries” and “travelling for thousands of years” – not actual retcons, but suggesting a more conventional setting for casual viewers tuning in and the sort of stories they’re telling. It’s only millions when they need it to be.

3. 200 years of stasis between series V and VI means that the earlier series took place in their equivalent of the early 19th century by comparison (e.g. Blackadder the Third). Since they didn’t run into a long-lived Camille or one of her great-great-etc grandchildren, it didn’t come up.

4. Although Lister is routinely slagged off in the series, he’s spared the level of seemingly authoritative character assassination that Rimmer gets, because the audience is aligned with Lister’s viewpoint most of the time. For example, we see Kochanski Camille belittling Rimmer’s interests, but we don’t get the equivalent of Hologram Camille reacting to Lister’s pickup lines, we’re left to form our own opinions on those. This flimsy point has not been considered much beyond this single example.

5. Cat’s costumes are overwhelmingly referenced more than anyone else’s in the series, but the least discussed by fans.

6. Ace Rimmer and Duane Dibbley were so seemingly ubiquitous in canon and tie-in merchandise through the 90s (Smegazine strips, T-shirts) that they still feel overused today, even though it’s been over 20 years since they appeared. Maybe they’re allowed back after all.

7. Only series III & V and maybe XI & XII (not as familiar with those) don’t have any sense of an arc whatsoever (though IV’s minor Kryten disobedience arc was already fucked up by episode shuffling). Series III is just about the only series where no episode directly references any previous episode, but it still has the Backwards scrolling text and general references to Rimmer having died and stuff.

8. One of the series’ most famous and quoted scenes – everybody’s dead, Dave – is a straight-up 2001: A Space Odyssey homage and would have been received that way at the time, but doesn’t work like that for most people coming to the episode later on or new viewers who are young or don’t watch old films.

9. Sometimes dismissed as lightweight and gimmicky today, Backwards was designed as an innovative interactive experience to reward extracurricular effort. As well as inviting fans to work out the backwards events and filming logistics, Arthur Smith’s eugolonom is teasingly long and “you scoundrels” is clearly a cleaned-up translation gag even before you’ve heard it. Unfortunately, by the time technology caught up with the intent and the ability to reverse media files properly on home computers became commonplace, Backwards Forwards came out and everyone just cheated with the walkthrough.

Imagine the quality of the musings I left out!

Topic

[Hamish]

Is that actually the same cup as the dog’s milk?

[loadoftottnumb]

At least it’s not grey 

[Stabbim]

Just had a thought about VIII.
Red Dwarf is recreated in orbit of the ocean planet from Back to Reality, so presumably the Dwarfers could’ve just directed the nanobot crew to the wreckage of the SSS Esperanto as evidence of their story.

Don’t even need to go that far.  Should only have taken the resurrected crew about one second of actually looking at their navigation monitors to realize the ship is A) nowhere near the Solar System B) somewhere that completely doesn’t match any previously charted region of space C) they thus have no smegging idea where they are or how to get back to anywhere they recognize.  Hollister, Todhunter, etc. are played fairly straight/competent, something as obviously amiss as that should not be lost on them, especially in the wake of other weird stuff like Cat’s clearly “alien” physiology and Kryten being futuristic (relative to Red Dwarf’s launch date) technology. Whether they initially believe Lister and Kochanski’s “insane” cover story for why she’s apparently broken him out of stasis and snuck onto a starbug with him or not.

Red Dwarf was never the USS Enterprise.  They weren’t supposed to be boldly going to bits of space no one had gone to before, they were just supposed to be going from Ganymede to Miranda and back to pick up expensive rocks.

[Podey]

I think there is a line to Hollister in Back In The Red about Red Dwarf unexpectedly being three million light years into deep space, isn’t there? 

[Stabbim]

I think there is a line to Hollister in Back In The Red about Red Dwarf unexpectedly being three million light years into deep space, isn’t there? 

Well there certainly should be.  I don’t remember one, but I want there to be, and I’d have to rewatch Series 8 to confirm or refute that it’s actually there, so I guess I’ll just take your word that it’s in there somewhere.

[Podey]

Yes, someone comes to Hollister and says “what’s this rumour that we’re three million years into deep space and Red Dwarf has changed shape?”, he asks who told her that and she says a vending machine.

I’ll be honest, I would find the ship changing shape the far more alarming one of those two things (especially as its a shit shape). 

[Frank Smeghammer]

That line is there, and I think I have to stand up for Back in the Red here.

Hollister believes their story. He can see it with his own eyes that things aren’t the way they were and says as much to Karen. It’s a case of proving it because they have to be tried through the proper process.

It is only when they implicate themselves in further criminal activity by accessing the crews confidential files that they get a completely different 2 years in the brig than the 2 years in the brig they were originally facing.

[Podey]

Potentially controversial opinion but I think that the series 8 plot could have made for some decent Dwarf if done right. It was always more the shit jokes and lack of subtlety that bothered me than the change in status quo. As a single-series thing, I think it’s fine to ressurect the crew and stick the characters in jail.

[Dave]

I think I’d have preferred it as a single self-contained episode or special, rather than the setup for a full series.

It’s not a bad idea to have the Red Dwarf crew suddenly come back and the regular cast realise that they were better off as they were, and there’s some inherent comedy in trying to explain their post-accident lives to Hollister etc., but it shouldn’t be the status quo for the show.

[Rudolph]

The Red Dwarf vending machines can be odd. When Lister orders a milkshake in Waiting for God, it’s served in a clear plastic glass.

But when he orders one in Bodyswap, it’s served in a plastic bottle.

[Dave]

I guess I always saw one as a “meal” vending machine and the other as a snack machine.

[International Debris]

Yeah, the 1 & 2 vending machines are more like Star Trek replicators: a part of the ship that provides full meals instantly. Since then they’ve been more like recognisable vending machines, standalone things selling snacks.

It seems like such a waste of time that Kryten is always preparing meals from ingredients when he could just go to a wall and get them instantly.

[Ian Symes]

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

Potentially controversial opinion but I think that the series 8 plot could have made for some decent Dwarf if done right. It was always more the shit jokes and lack of subtlety that bothered me than the change in status quo. As a single-series thing, I think it’s fine to ressurect the crew and stick the characters in jail.

*resurrect

But yeah you’re probably right

[Moonlight]

Lister fighting Rimmer as the knight while speaking with the knight’s voice has always had a part that bugs me. At the end, he says “so far”, takes a voice changer device out of his mouth, then says “so good”, and logically you would expect the first line to be in the knight’s voice and then it changes to his own to punctuate the removal, but they don’t. It feels like a bizarre oversight. Well, it turns out..



…the subtitles agree with me even though that absolutely does not happen in the final episode. Naturally, Cappsy has some more Smegadrive subtitles to fix.

[International Debris]

Also two periods do not an ellipsis make.

[Moonlight]

I noticed that after the edit timer expired. CAPPSY! CAPPSY, GET TO WORK! YOU HAVE AN ELLIPSIS TO PERIOD!

[cwickham]

If Patrick Troughton had lived a few years longer it feels like he’d definitely have had a guest spot in an early Red Dwarf.

[Jonathan Capps]

I noticed that after the edit timer expired. CAPPSY! CAPPSY, GET TO WORK! YOU HAVE AN ELLIPSIS TO PERIOD!

I think now would be an excellent time to blame Danny

[Moonlight]

And yet I still blame you. Funny, that.

[Podey]

I’m currently between being fitted for a cap and having a cap fitted and this has been in my head ALL WEEK

[Unrumble]

Just check the dentist doesn’t have any wood glue lying around…

[Ian Symes]

If Patrick Troughton had lived a few years longer it feels like he’d definitely have had a guest spot in an early Red Dwarf.

[tombow]

The first RD I ever saw was the last 5 minutes of Out of Time. It just occurred to me that those 5 mins are the only part of 1-6 I saw on first broadcast.

[Ian Symes]

For me, it was only Emohawk – I was already a fan by the time VI started, but I wasn’t allowed to stay up late enough, so I’d watch it on tape the next morning. But Emohawk was on during half term, so I stayed up til 9:30pm as a treat.

[Podey]

I really can’t put my finger on when I started watching. I can only remember seeing 6 as a kid (have very vivid memories of how that ‘Out of Time’ ending hit, watching it live), yet the first Smegazine I ever found in a shop had the image from Justice on the front and I knew what it was so I must have been watching since 4 at least. 

[International Debris]

Tuned in during the oiling scene of Terrorform and been watching ever since. 

[Dave]

First scene I ever remember seeing was the Aeneid comic book scene from The Inquisitor, which I think must have been on original broadcast. Then caught Dimension Jump and the rest of IV on its repeat run a few weeks later (the original broadcast order of IV still feels weird to me as a result).

Then must have caught the full V repeat run in early ’93 and watched VI on first broadcast later that year. Then recapped the whole thing with the ’94 repeat run.

(With a few of the VHSs filling in some of the earlier gaps along the way.)

[Warbodog]

I think the ’94 repeat run happened just when I started to stay up late to watch grown up TV (or was specifically an incentive to do so). Though annoyingly, I only caught little bits of Justice and DNA (in that order) and only watched properly for the five unbanned episodes of VI. It was the best thing I’d ever seen.

[tombow]

Rimmer’s lift/supermarket music would be cutting edge vapourwave now!

[International Debris]

Vaporwave hasn’t been cutting edge for about a decade. Get with it! 

[Rudolph]

I think I first became aware during VII. I’ve got fragmented memories of bits and pieces – the second half of Stoke Me a Clipper and watching Epideme up until the point Caroline Carmen attacks Lister, which was turned off as I found it too scary. I definitely watched most of VIII on broadcast, having picked up a couple of videos in between series.

[GlenTokyo]

Mundane observation: 

Living Rimmer in The End has a digital watch, looks like a Casio G Shock one, possibly a DW-5600C, which is what Keanu Reeves wears in Speed, might be an earlier model but the shape seems the same.

Hologram Rimmer wears an analogue watch with a green face. 

[International Debris]

Thread finally living up to its title.

[Renegade Rob]

Also, as a mundane observation, Rimmer repeatedly mentions Reggie Wilson in Series IV, but then tortures the others with Reggie Dixon’s Tango Treats in Quarantine. Are we assuming they’re the same Reggie, who had a John Cougar Mellencamp or Lady Antebellum-style name change? If so, it’s neat that Rimmer seems to sincerely believe during the events of Dimension Jump that the others would also want to listen to Reggie Wilson/Dixon but after being shot down he’s able to utilize their dislike of it against them in Quarantine one series later. I’m assuming that both Reggie’s are fictional (unlike James Last, who I was surprised to find out actually did exist). 

 

[tombow]

I actually want a full list of all music mentioned to be liked by Rimmer now. I do think that Rimmer’s likes in general seem more “cool” now than they did at the time – there’s an ironic quirky, appreciation to his kind of stuff now.

[Dave]

I’m assuming that both Reggie’s are fictional

Reggie Dixon is real.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Dixon

Maybe the mention of Reggie Wilson is Rob and Doug misremembering the name.

[Future Producer of Series IX – aaaaany day now]

I actually want a full list of all music mentioned to be liked by Rimmer now. I do think that Rimmer’s likes in general seem more “cool” now than they did at the time – there’s an ironic quirky, appreciation to his kind of stuff now.

[clem]

Reggie Dixon is real.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Dixon
Maybe the mention of Reggie Wilson is Rob and Doug misremembering the name.

Reggie Dixon is referenced in the first novel, then in the TV show it’s Reggie Wilson apart from that one mention of Dixon in Quarantine, so I think Wilson is Rob and Doug’s fictionalised version and they just forgot that one time and reverted to Dixon. 

[Renegade Rob]

I’m assuming that both Reggie’s are fictional
Reggie Dixon is real.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Dixon
Maybe the mention of Reggie Wilson is Rob and Doug misremembering the name.

[Rudolph]

Mundane observation: 
Living Rimmer in The End has a digital watch, looks like a Casio G Shock one, possibly a DW-5600C, which is what Keanu Reeves wears in Speed, might be an earlier model but the shape seems the same.
Hologram Rimmer wears an analogue watch with a green face. 

I always thought it was an orange/green hologram sticker like you used to get, like what his H is made out of later. To look more hologram-y and sci-fi.

[cwickham]

So, the original intention for Series I was this:

1. The End

2. Bodysnatcher

3. Balance of Power

4. Waiting for God

5. Future Echoes

6. Confidence & Paranoia, with original ending of Lister successfully resurrecting Kochanski as a hologram

After the strike clobbers the original recording dates, Rob and Doug decide Bodysnatcher is the weakest script, they ditch it and write Me2 instead, yadda yadda.

Was ditching Bodysnatcher and changing their minds about Kochanski coming back a decision made in tandem, or were they already having second thoughts about the latter before they dropped the former? Or was it just easier to come up with a new ending episode rather than a mid-series episode given the running threads across the first series, or had they decided C&P wasn’t a great way to end the series but not weak enough to drop altogether?

Also — I feel like it’s never really been discussed that it seems like in the original plan, Future Echoes would have gone out *fifth*…

[Dave]

I think moving Future Echoes to second was a good idea as it immediately answers the question of why Lister doesn’t just go back into stasis for the trip home. Plus it’s the strongest episode of the series and shows off nicely how the show would combine sci-fi and comedy going forward.

I do think though that given that C&P (and Me²) were written with such a focus on Lister wanting to bring back Kochanski as a hologram – returning to the idea from Balance of Power – it might have made sense to move Waiting for God to third place so that you would have a mini-arc of Lister’s attempts to bring back holo-Kochanski all through the back half of the series.

[International Debris]

I do like the slow burn of starting with the mundane life on ship episodes at the start before the sci-fi stuff starts happening, but from an ‘it’s a TV show’ perspective, Future Echoes makes sense second.

What I find odd is that Bodysnatcher was never finished, yet they must have rehearsed it with the possibility of recording it during the strike, as apparently they did it for every episode.

[cwickham]

Was Bodysnatcher definitely never finished, or did the ending just go missing at some point between 1987 and 2007? Even if it was the former we know Queeg didn’t have an ending written until very late in the day.

[Rudolph]

If Kochanski had been resurrected at the end of the first season, does that mean they go forward with two holograms aboard, full-time, or would they have contrived a reason to get rid of her again for the second series.

[Frank Smeghammer]

The End is of course a great episode but it is a whirlwind, it has a lot to establish and set up and not very long to do it in. It does a phenomenal job but it is your classic TV pilot and doesn’t have the time to do much digging below the surface

This is why imo it needed Future Echoes to follow it. I would go as far to say the existence of the show past the first series may have been in jeopardy if Future Echoes wasn’t in #2.

From many different aspects, Future Echoes is one of the strongest episodes in the shows history. Its in my top 5. It’s very funny, very lonely, very character heavy and has a big helping of sci-fi. And an even bigger helping of drama. What other TV show kills the whole crew in episode 1, and then threatens to kill the main character* in a big explosion in episode 2!! The drama! The emotion! Lister meets his future self, aging and old, and then meets his twin sons he didn’t even know he had! Come on!

The show may not have survived if it wasn’t episode 2.

That’s my controversial take

*(Lister is the sole protagonist in Series I, the show is not yet an ensemble crew…but that’s a different controversial take for another day)

[cwickham]

If Kochanski had been resurrected at the end of the first season, does that mean they go forward with two holograms aboard, full-time, or would they have contrived a reason to get rid of her again for the second series.

I think the intention was to go ahead with Kochanski as a full-time cast member for the second series, in much the same way as the intention was to go ahead with Lister having a baby at the start of the third series. In this case Rob & Doug clearly changed their minds long before the script ever got in front of the cameras, as opposed to writing a third of “Dad” before changing their minds.

[GlenTokyo]

Mundane observation: 
Living Rimmer in The End has a digital watch, looks like a Casio G Shock one, possibly a DW-5600C, which is what Keanu Reeves wears in Speed, might be an earlier model but the shape seems the same.
Hologram Rimmer wears an analogue watch with a green face. 

I always thought it was an orange/green hologram sticker like you used to get, like what his H is made out of later. To look more hologram-y and sci-fi.

I think it’s a luminous watch face a bit like this:

But it does seem to flare orange, which could be the horrendous BBC Manchester cameras from the late 1960s or it is some kind of metallic colour shift swatch watch.

[Stabbim]

If Kochanski had been resurrected at the end of the first season, does that mean they go forward with two holograms aboard, full-time, or would they have contrived a reason to get rid of her again for the second series.

I think this would have largely depended on if/when they got a 3rd series and beyond approved and how available Claire Grogan was.

Here’s my guess:

Grant and Naylor came in with a [only] 2 Series Plan for the story arc of Red Dwarf, because of the BBC custom of getting the second series (but not more) auto-approved.  With how many struggles they went through to get Red Dwarf on the air in the first place, they might well have thought 2 series/12 episodes is all they’re ever going to get, so they better make it count and rush to (presumably) their planned ending and whatever payoff for the Lister/Kochanski story they had in mind.  No 3rd Series to worry about, no Grogan scheduling headache to have.  Project finished, on to the next one.

So, Holo-Kochanski gets booted up at the end of Series 1 and remains activated through Series 2. S2’s overarching plot/theme is Lister’s (hilarious) struggles to make it work with her (while a still-active Rimmer heckles him I suppose).  Or process his grief and move on.  Whatever’s funnier, I suppose.  Remember, early on Holograms not being able to touch things was a very big deal, with Rimmer’s limitations being either plot-relevant or gag-relevant at least once per episode.  I think this was going to be a pillar of their original plan for Series 2: Lister’s repeated frustration with Kochanski’s incorporealness and trying to have the best relationship he can with a for all intents and purposes ghost. Falling through her for laughs when Lister tries to hug or kiss her, etc.  Maybe Lister “grows” and “matures” by having to focus on the mental/emotional aspect of relationships without the physical.  Maybe “Stasis Leak” is now the finale and it poses a dilemma between the Kochanski he can touch and the Kochanski he’s actually built a “life” with in the interim.  Or maybe the finale is bBetter Than Life, now almost certainly more in line with the darker, more addictive version in the book, with Lister being able to touch Kochanski in the game and so refusing to leave. But one way or another, the end of Series 2 and the end of the show culminate Lister’s “quest” for Kochanski, because they don’t know they’re getting Series 3 and beyond until they actually do get them.

But then there’s the delay of the electrician strike & the ME2 idea, Grogan’s shooting schedule having more conflicts than they perhaps originally anticipated, and most importantly of all Red Dwarf being a smash hit that will get way more than just the standard 2 series run.  So tying up the Kochanski plot-thread gets deferred.  And deferred.  So deferred she actually becomes forgotten in Series 3 thru 5. In the meantime the show undergoes several tonal shifts.  The limitations of Holographic crew-members lose their initial significance.  In fact it becomes such an albatross for Grant & Naylor in the Starbug/”Away Team” era they start selectively disregarding it until they ultimately just make Rimmer solid. And by the time the Kochanski Restoration idea finally pays off, she’s alive and so Lister must face a completely different struggle: she’s not that into him, after all.

But it’s tough to truly say what “Plan A” for Series 2 was because they had to/got to pivot away from it so early on.

[Author]

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