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  • #267337
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Between Red Dwarf and disparaging references in Amiga public domain games, the ZX81’s always had a bad rap second-hand.

    I don’t think they’ve specifically targeted other systems since, but Kryten making a Windows joke wouldn’t be out of place.

    I wouldn’t know that the hologram error eyes in Trojan were an Apple reference if it hadn’t been pointed out at the time.

    I’m basically underqualified to speculate at length about computer references.

    #267338
    Dave
    Participant

    For it to be possible for there to be an alternate reality in Skipper in which Rimmer is Holly, does that imply that AI computers are based on the personalities of real people?

    And if so, does that open the door for Norman to at some point appear as the “original” human that Holly was based on?

    #267339
    Warbodog
    Participant

    For it to be possible for there to be an alternate reality in Skipper in which Rimmer is Holly, does that imply that AI computers are based on the personalities of real people?

    And if so, does that open the door for Norman to at some point appear as the “original” human that Holly was based on?

    He just chooses the face he wants at any time (explains the origin in Balance of Power), the personality was unrelated and seemed to develop on its own, but I suppose it could be a computer simulation of someone else in the first place, since it’s hologrammic technology. So the Rimmer computer was a universe where there could be a real Rimmer that the computer based its face on, but Rimmer jumped into the computer version instead. I don’t think we’re supposed to analyse Skipper this much though.

    #267340
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    For it to be possible for there to be an alternate reality in Skipper in which Rimmer is Holly, does that imply that AI computers are based on the personalities of real people?

    And if so, does that open the door for Norman to at some point appear as the “original” human that Holly was based on?

    Did that in Star Trek to good effect – Lewis Zimmerman, Noonian Soong.

    Sort of on the subject of computers in Red Dwarf, there’s a wireframe garbage pod on a monitor in Waiting for God, which always sticks out to me, I wonder what that was made on.

    #267341

    And if so, does that open the door for Norman to at some point appear as the “original” human that Holly was based on?

    The greatest and most prolific lover who ever lived? Would be an interesting episode.

    #267343
    Dave
    Participant

    He just chooses the face he wants at any time (explains the origin in Balance of Power), the personality was unrelated and seemed to develop on its own, but I suppose it could be a computer simulation of someone else in the first place, since it’s hologrammic technology.

    Yeah, exactly, that was my thinking (rather than the Balance of Power explanation which I always thought was a joke on Holly’s part anyway).

    I’d like to see a Soong-style original human inspiration for Holly at some point, I think it could be fun. Or maybe with Hattie – you could have Norm-Holly create a holgrammatic woman based on Hilly.

    #267372
    Warbodog
    Participant

    This might be a well-known mistake, but not to me. In Dimension Jump, there’s a rogue frame of Starbug at 16:15 (my copy) between the pan under Ace’s ship and the cockpit interior (“they’ve ditched into the drink” scene, when Starbug is already crashed). Three consecutive frames:

    #267644
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    This might be a well-known mistake, but not to me. In Dimension Jump, there’s a rogue frame of Starbug at 16:15 (my copy) between the pan under Ace’s ship and the cockpit interior (“they’ve ditched into the drink” scene, when Starbug is already crashed). Three consecutive frames:

    Wow! That’s new to me too.

    ——

    I don’t often specifically choose to rewatch Angels and Demons as it’s not a favourite (I’m not keen on the half on the Low ship) but watching it now and I always forget how good the beginning is. Well, it’s all very good, but I *enjoy* the first half much more than I seem to remember.

    The model shots are brilliant too.

    Now finding the same with Back to Reality! It’s not a favourite, for some reason, but I’m enjoying it more than I usually think I do.

    Maybe V really is the show’s peak. I enjoy VI but between the two I think I prefer not having quite so many repetitive/formulaic jokes. They have their place, of course, and they do still make me laugh, but I think Red Dwarf does better without them.

    #267648
    Warbodog
    Participant

    IV & V for me. I feel the same about Demons and Angels, the first few minutes up until Red Dwarf blows up it’s some of the most intense scenes and funniest dialogue of the entire series, but then hits a steep slump. Similar to Parallel Universe in that respect. Some others like Camille are better in the opening too, but to less of an extreme.

    #267650

    This might be a well-known mistake, but not to me. In Dimension Jump, there’s a rogue frame of Starbug at 16:15 (my copy) between the pan under Ace’s ship and the cockpit interior (“they’ve ditched into the drink” scene, when Starbug is already crashed). Three consecutive frames:

    I’s never noticed this too but confirmed mine (ripped from DVD) is the same.

    I wonder if it is the same on the blu-ray. Feels like it might have been the sort of thing to be picked up and taken out?

    #267706

    One thing I’ve just thought of that always bothers me a little is Lister in Better Than Life, when he is told there is a restaurant just a couple of miles down the beach, he asks “a couple of miles! how are we going to get there?” as if two miles is some insurmountable and inconceivable distance to cover on foot. It’s a 30min walk down the beach! If anything a stroll along a sandy beach after being stuck on Red Dwarf for the last year old so would be welcomed.

    I appreciate it’s there to introduce the “think what you want and it’ll appear in front of you” mechanic of the game, but it’s just the way the question is phrased that bothers me.

    #267709
    Jenuall
    Participant

    I mean it’s pretty well established that Lister is a lazy bum, he’s a guy who uses a motorised bike to get around the corridors of the ship, but yeah it is a bit of a stretch!

    #267711

    Always assumed the bike was because the ship was so large that it would be an hour’s walk to get anywhere, which would get pretty tiring.

    #267712
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Yeah I thought that whilst writing. But then you would expect to see more people using some form of powered transport to get around and all the glimpses we have of the pre-accident ship just has everyone walking around.

    The sense of scale is hard to judge at times, for the most part I always assumed that the majority of where they spend their time is a small pocket of the ship that doesn’t take ages to navigate, but there’s not much to go on for that I guess. They do seem to walk most places in the early days at least, using the lift only happens in Stasis Leak and that’s because they are travelling a large number of floors. Things like Lister being running from the drive room to the sleeping quarters to stop Cat breaking his tooth in Future Echoes certainly implies that these places are pretty close together

    #267713
    Warbodog
    Participant

    The quote’s true to what I saw in some hot countries where people are used to not walking the shortest distance because of the heat + cheap public transport. Space bike and lifts have probably spoiled him.

    Also, this is someone who planned a three-week “fishing” holiday that involved sitting around drinking. The lyrics of the theme song are similarly low-effort.

    #267714
    Jenuall
    Participant

    To be fair I don’t think I’d particularly enjoy walking along Rhyl beach either!

    #267715

    It would make a lot of sense if the living and main working areas of the ship, where all in one place. Then there’s huge cargo bays and landing bays and engine rooms and decks that take up the bulk of the ship that you rarely need to access day to day, and if you do you have the tube system that’s talked about in the books and seen in series viii, or there probably are some scooters, buggies etc for medium trip transport etc. Maybe to get around the large engineering decks etc

    The only discrepancy to this is Stasis Leak as Jenuall points out, it takes them hours to descend hundreds of floors, and they emerge in a part of the ship people are again, ostensibly living and working in. It would be impractical for people to have to make the journey on a daily basis so it’s curious how that fits in, other than being a joke of course.

    I don’t buy that Lister’s character is so lazy that he wouldn’t walk down the road a bit. I think he uses that bike post accident because he can. There’s no-one around to tell him not to and he is bored.

    #267716

    The quote’s true to what I saw in some hot countries where people are used to not walking the shortest distance because of the heat + cheap public transport. Space bike and lifts have probably spoiled him.

    Also, this is someone who planned a three-week “fishing” holiday that involved sitting around drinking. The lyrics of the theme song are similarly low-effort.

    A fishing holiday is quite different though. The point of that is to sit around and do sod all, but outside. For them it’s just getting off the ship and stretching their legs a bit in the fresh air.

    Don’t forget, Lister’s dream is to own a farm (and inexplicably a hotdog and burger restaurant). The farm is pretty manual labour stuff.

    #267718
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Don’t forget the doughnut element of his empire!

    #267719

    oh yeah I think I meant that when I said burgers.

    #267720
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Well apparently the diner would have provided “all manner of bountiful things” so I imagine burgers would have been on the menu as well.

    Given the levels of curry obsession we are supposed to believe Lister has it’s surprising that his dream is to open an outlet that sells what would seem to be exclusively non curry foods!

    #267721

    Maybe he doesn’t want to ruin it for himself. Or all the food will be slathered in vindaloo sauce, chutney in the doughnuts etc

    But really it’s a slight change in Lister’s character isn’t it. He becomes much more curry obsessed from III onwards. He likes curry but he eats a variety of things in the early years.

    #267722

    The origins of his curry thing just come from it being a basic greasy takeaway food like all of his favourites really, aren’t they? Wonder why it was decided to make it his favouritest thing.

    #267723
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Well when he learns he’s about to die in Future Echoes and is trying to process the things he’s not done in life the first thing he reaches for is having never eaten a prawn vindaloo so I think he was still pretty heavily into curry at the start.

    But it does definitely escalate, series V Lister refusing to eat pizza until it was smothered in curry sauce possibly being the high point of his obsession!

    #267724

    Maybe he starts to prefer curry more and more as it covers the awful taste of all the food that has been sat in storage for 3million years.

    I had a prawn vindaloo once because Lister hadn’t, I wouldn’t recommend it.

    #267728
    Hamish
    Participant

    But it does definitely escalate, series V Lister refusing to eat pizza until it was smothered in curry sauce possibly being the high point of his obsession!

    Tikka to Ride would like a word.

    #267731
    Jenuall
    Participant

    But it does definitely escalate, series V Lister refusing to eat pizza until it was smothered in curry sauce possibly being the high point of his obsession!

    Tikka to Ride would like a word.

    I like to avoid thinking about series VII as much as possible, that’s my excuse!

    Plus it never makes an sense in VII, both in the sense of how the fuck have they suddenly managed to get the time drive to travel both through time and space, but also in series VI we’ve already seen Lister adapt to eating space weevil and the like so his breakdown at the start of Tikka doesn’t really scan. Yes he wasn’t a fan of adapting his diet but he got on with it in a way that didn’t suggest he needed to sit on his bunk and rock back and forward hugging his guitar.

    Also where the fuck did all the curry supplies that apparently got lost in the battle with their future selves come from exactly? They went through most of VI with little to nothing on board and had to scavenge for what they could find. The only real stock up they make is stealing from the simulant ship in Rimmerworld but I find it hard to believe that consisted entirely of Indian cuisine!

    #267740
    Dave
    Participant

    Maybe the amalgam Starbug pulled in a load of curries from their future selves’ storeroom and in the new paradox timeline Lister caught a quick glimpse of them before the laser blast caused the flood.

    Either that or it’s all a load of bollocks.

    #267742
    Warbodog
    Participant

    The wind tunnel metaphor is apposite.

    #267755

    It’s all part of the VII comfort zone: they’re still stuck on Starbug, but supplies are plentiful and everybody seems quite content. Have I mentioned my idea of how VII should have started with them using the time drive to recover Red Dwarf so the feel and setting of the series actually made sense before? I have? Oh.

    #267758
    Jenuall
    Participant

    VII being set on Red Dwarf would help with some of the tonal shift from VI. Obviously it wouldn’t solve all of VII’s many other failings but hey you can’t have everything I guess!

    #267780
    Rudolph
    Participant

    Starbug basically becomes not-Red Dwarf in VII. It’s suddenly got all the corridors, cargo bays, science room etc. that the Dwarf does, and we only get the odd reference to the supply situation being rough (the curry situation, no pineapple chunks and cottage cheese etc.), but it’s not much different than what they had pre-VI.

    I think Lister’s curry obsession lands in Waiting for God, when he orders a chicken vindaloo and beer milkshake for breakfast.

    Funny, really, as when we first meet Lister in The End he’s tucking into a steak and kidney pie.

    #267781
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Alt Timeslides Lister hasn’t moved on from the sausage sandwiches of his teens (that we see), so maybe the curry obsession came later and he didn’t get the opportunity to develop it.

    The story in Tikka Xtended about drinking the yard of vindaloo sauce on planet leave shows it was in full force before the accident.

    #267783
    Stabbim the Skutter
    Participant

    Has anyone played Escape from Monkey Island?

    Escape is the Series VIII of the Monkey Island series. Broad humour, the need to make a crappy joke with every line of dialogue, shoehorned and overdone references to the early years, and of course bad CGI.

    #267784
    Stabbim the Skutter
    Participant

    Also both depressingly appeared to be the endings to their respective series, until 2009.

    #267786
    Jenuall
    Participant

    Starbug basically becomes not-Red Dwarf in VII. It’s suddenly got all the corridors, cargo bays, science room etc. that the Dwarf does, and we only get the odd reference to the supply situation being rough (the curry situation, no pineapple chunks and cottage cheese etc.), but it’s not much different than what they had pre-VI.

    I think Lister’s curry obsession lands in Waiting for God, when he orders a chicken vindaloo and beer milkshake for breakfast.
    Funny, really, as when we first meet Lister in The End he’s tucking into a steak and kidney pie.

    He’s also smoking a chicken which shows a commitment to a more varied consumption then we see later!

    #267858
    Dave
    Participant

    Unintended mini-arcs across consecutive episodes, anyone?

    I like the way The Last Day, Camille and DNA form a character arc for Kryten – going from believing in Silicon Heaven to wanting more life; then becoming more human by learning how to lie and falling in love; then pushing things too far by literally becoming a human but ultimately realising he can’t deny his nature as a mechanoid.

    I guess you can also draw a slightly wobbly line from Rimmer being faced with his own awful nature in Rimmerworld through his heroic moment in Out Of Time, sense of responsibility in Tikka and finally becoming Ace in Stoke.

    Any others?

    #267863
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Kryten has a subsidiary micro-arc with Rimmer in series IV that’s messed up by scheduling, but in recording order he’s unable to disobey him in Meltdown, then disobeys him with his new lying capability in Camille (recorded the following week). In broadcast order, there’s also his back-to-back slating of Rimmer in Justice (politely and affected) and White Hole (raw truth).

    I consider watching the series in mostly recording/intended order sometimes to see how it feels (except ones that were obviously done out of sequence for practicality, like Rimmerworld before Gunmen), but I just like to skip around randomly anyway. I’ve done The End, Balance of Power, Waiting for God as an establishing miniseries.

    #267867
    Dave
    Participant

    Kryten has a subsidiary micro-arc with Rimmer in series IV that’s messed up by scheduling, but in recording order he’s unable to disobey him in Meltdown, then disobeys him with his new lying capability in Camille (recorded the following week).

    And I guess Dimension Jump also has “they forced me to do it, I had no choice”.

    #267869
    Warbodog
    Participant

    The Last Day and Camille have non-sexual love interests for Kryten with the Marilyn sexbot and Camille, then in DNA he gets a full-on ex-robot chubby over vacuum cleaners.

    Kryten (seemingly) meets a more advanced model of his mechanoid line in The Last Day and Camille. Camille and DNA share the message of accepting who you are, Kryten learning it after teaching it. ‘Arcs’ have deteriorated into repeated themes now.

    #267870

    The Last Day ends with Kryten saying he was lying, and Camille opens with him saying he can’t lie. Not much of an arc in that sense.

    #267871

    Last Day seems like an exception though as a) Kryten is lying to another mechanoid and b) he is doing it to prevent lose of life. Not just his own but everyone else is in danger too.

    #267879

    True, although the opening Camille scene is definitely written and acted as if lying is some kind of unattainable goal, which still doesn’t really work if the last thing we saw Kryten do is exactly the thing he’s now failing to do.
    I just quite enjoy it as a very obvious example of the ‘make it up as they go along’ scrappy approach Rob and Doug took to writing.

    #267880
    Dave
    Participant

    That is quite funny yes. But Camille is obviously about more than just lying, it’s about Kryten’s growth from the more robotic version we saw in III to the more rounded character that he becomes for the rest of the series.

    Talking of which, it’s interesting that Polymorph has to make quite an effort to establish that Kryten has an overriding emotion of guilt (with the “trout” scene) so that the emotion-based plot works later on.

    Guilt being Kryten’s prominent emotion is one of those things that felt quite natural to me because I only watched Polymorph after watching IV and V and reading the first two novels (where Kryten is responsible for what happened on the Nova 5), so I already knew Kryten well enough by then for Polymorph to feel right.

    But if you’d been watching III as it aired I’m not sure that Backwards and Marooned (where Kryten barely appears) give you any real sense of who Kryten is as a character beyond being a bit nervy and funny-looking.

    #267882

    I just quite enjoy it as a very obvious example of the ‘make it up as they go along’ scrappy approach Rob and Doug took to writing.

    Agreed, and I think no where is that more obvious than with Kryten, who in some ways needs to be Data-esque but also needs complete autonomy for him to function as a character within the show.

    it’s interesting that Polymorph has to make quite an effort to establish that Kryten has an overriding emotion of guilt

    There’s something quite sadistic about using guilt in mechanoids to ensure they do what they’re programmed to do isn’t there.

    #267883
    Dave
    Participant

    Yes, and that obviously ties in with the religious approach to mechanoid thinking in The Last Day nicely.

    #267885
    Warbodog
    Participant

    According to the indisputable series VIII, guilt is as rogue as all the other emotions he’s developed and he’s just supposed to be blankly obedient.

    #267892

    Yes but, the thing about series VIII, the thing you have to remember about series VIII … series VIII … series VIII is a goit!

    Perhaps there is a real low level guilt routine that runs to keep his behaviour in check, but that has developed into something much greater since the Nova 5. He killed the crew. At first he didn’t even notice and then 3million years later when it became apparent, the routine went into overdrive trying to figure out why it happened and to compensate for the years of just merrily going around serving soup to skeletons.

    #267907

    If I was to head-canon any changes like that, it would be the initial breaking of his programming in Kryten, followed by Lister’s pre-III rebuild.

    #268137
    Dave
    Participant

    This has probably been brought up before, but:

    Does the DNA retcon of Lister and Kochanski having had a previous relationship undermine Holly’s selection of Rimmer as a hologram companion for Lister, and so a key part of the show?

    According to Series I continuity, Holly makes the case for resurrecting Rimmer based on him being Lister’s most meaningful relationship on board Red Dwarf – and makes the point that Kochanski is just an abstract object of desire for him, but there’s not a real relationship there.

    But with the DNA retcon, that argument becomes weaker and makes Holly look either more mean to Lister or just unhinged.

    (Although I guess even without the retcon you can make the case for the likes of Chen and Petersen and argue that Holly brought back the person most likely to keep him sane – and you can still argue with the retcon that Rimmer is a better choice for that than Kochanski.)

    #268138

    Rimmer is the best person to keep him sane as it keeps Lister a bit annoyed, it centres him, gives him someone to take frustration out on etc. Even if he might appear to dislike it, it keeps is head in the right place. If it were Petersen or Chen they’d have just got drunk and Holly would have been in the same situation Lister is in the books before Rimmer comes back, only with a companion.

    Re Kochanski. I think the fact they had previously had a relationship could be even more of an argument not to bring her back. Would you want to be stuck alone in deep space with your ex? Especially for Kochanski, who would clearly not want that relationship.

    Had they currently been in a relationship at the time of the accident there’d be a case for it, but it being a broken relationship I think rights her off.

    #268140
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Doesn’t Infinity clear this up?

    #268141

    I do find it quite amusing that we all accept that the best way to resolve a dispute in the show’s continuity due to a ret-con is to consult a different continuity in a different medium.

    #268142
    Dave
    Participant

    Yeah, obviously I thought of Infinity at first but I’m just talking about the show.

    #268143
    Dave
    Participant

    Re Kochanski. I think the fact they had previously had a relationship could be even more of an argument not to bring her back. Would you want to be stuck alone in deep space with your ex? Especially for Kochanski, who would clearly not want that relationship.

    Ok, so they briefly power everything down so they can also bring back a hologram of Lewis Pemberton for a few minutes too.

    #268144
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    It’d be quite cruel too considering she’s dead.

    Even if she’s not “dead dead” he’d still be confronted with the fact that she died 3 million years ago and isn’t coming back (excluding sci-fi shenanigans).

    While I’m sure he’s not happy Rimmer is dead, I don’t think his hologram status and what that means would play on his mind quite as much as someone he loved.

    #268146
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    The (living) version of Kochanski is apparently so bored with Lister, that’s she’s willing to steal a Blue Midget and explore deep space on her own for eternity, than spend any more time with him. This is clearly the behaviour of someone who is unhinged (or just exceptionally poor character development).

    Anyway, the handwavey TV show answer (if you’re not willing to accept Infinity Holly’s “Dave, she finished with you”), is that bringing Kochanski back as a hologram to keep Lister company would have eventually drove *her* insane.

    #268147
    Rudolph
    Participant

    I think there’d be an issue that even if Holly had switched on Kochanski’s hologram, and she and Lister had managed to work out their differences, it would be quite frustrating for both of them that they wouldn’t be able to consummate their love. That Lister would still have the love of his life, or a reasonable facsimile, but wouldn’t be able to so much as hold her hand, would drive him bonkers.

    #268148
    Dave
    Participant

    That’s where the holo-whip comes in.

    #268149
    GlenTokyo
    Participant

    That’s where the holo-whip comes in.

    Quality tumblr writing prompt.

    #268150
    RunawayTrain
    Participant

    So this is actually one time they really (unintentionally, in the real world) did right by Kochanski, not torturing her by either being unable to be physical in a relationship, or potentially be pursued by someone she no longer loves for the rest of her life – especially as Lister is the last human alive and is therefore *highly* unlikely to find anyone else to love.

    #268151

    Perhaps worth noting the Holly in Chloe’s Kochanski’s universe believed Lister, who had recently split with her, was who she needed to keep her sane.

    #268152
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Perhaps worth noting the Holly in Chloe’s Kochanski’s universe believed Lister, who had recently split with her, was who she needed to keep her sane.

    Yes, but keep in mind that universe’s Kryten had a gold shell and Cat had a deeper voice, so who knows what imaginative differences the Holly might entail.

    #268153
    Warbodog
    Participant

    Unused “Ouroboros Holly” concept art

    Holly Ouroboros

    #268154
    Dave
    Participant

    That looks like the character-select screen for the worst beat-em-up ever.

    #268155
    Jonathan Capps
    Keymaster

    Holyphemus.

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