Mundane observation dome

[Warbodog]

Do you have any miscellaneous insights on the series that may be worth contemplating for a few seconds before moving on with our lives? Here are some of mine.

1. The four regulars have names that can work any way around, though this would have been more obvious if David Ross had stayed and wouldn’t work if Chris Barrie used his real name.

2. The series’ lax attitude to continuity extends to the setting. Outside of Holly’s distress calls, I don’t think three million years is mentioned all that much after series I and before VI (not sure about later years). Instead, we get the extremely fudged “dead for centuries” and “travelling for thousands of years” – not actual retcons, but suggesting a more conventional setting for casual viewers tuning in and the sort of stories they’re telling. It’s only millions when they need it to be.

3. 200 years of stasis between series V and VI means that the earlier series took place in their equivalent of the early 19th century by comparison (e.g. Blackadder the Third). Since they didn’t run into a long-lived Camille or one of her great-great-etc grandchildren, it didn’t come up.

4. Although Lister is routinely slagged off in the series, he’s spared the level of seemingly authoritative character assassination that Rimmer gets, because the audience is aligned with Lister’s viewpoint most of the time. For example, we see Kochanski Camille belittling Rimmer’s interests, but we don’t get the equivalent of Hologram Camille reacting to Lister’s pickup lines, we’re left to form our own opinions on those. This flimsy point has not been considered much beyond this single example.

5. Cat’s costumes are overwhelmingly referenced more than anyone else’s in the series, but the least discussed by fans.

6. Ace Rimmer and Duane Dibbley were so seemingly ubiquitous in canon and tie-in merchandise through the 90s (Smegazine strips, T-shirts) that they still feel overused today, even though it’s been over 20 years since they appeared. Maybe they’re allowed back after all.

7. Only series III & V and maybe XI & XII (not as familiar with those) don’t have any sense of an arc whatsoever (though IV’s minor Kryten disobedience arc was already fucked up by episode shuffling). Series III is just about the only series where no episode directly references any previous episode, but it still has the Backwards scrolling text and general references to Rimmer having died and stuff.

8. One of the series’ most famous and quoted scenes – everybody’s dead, Dave – is a straight-up 2001: A Space Odyssey homage and would have been received that way at the time, but doesn’t work like that for most people coming to the episode later on or new viewers who are young or don’t watch old films.

9. Sometimes dismissed as lightweight and gimmicky today, Backwards was designed as an innovative interactive experience to reward extracurricular effort. As well as inviting fans to work out the backwards events and filming logistics, Arthur Smith’s eugolonom is teasingly long and “you scoundrels” is clearly a cleaned-up translation gag even before you’ve heard it. Unfortunately, by the time technology caught up with the intent and the ability to reverse media files properly on home computers became commonplace, Backwards Forwards came out and everyone just cheated with the walkthrough.

Imagine the quality of the musings I left out!

Topic

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

[Warbodog]

RD USA wasn’t good enough or bad enough to make it a source of interest to me. That US omnibus cover with the artist’s interpretations of the characters occupies more space in my brain.

[Moonlight]

I’m mainly just impressed this existed in a form we could track down.

[Technopeasant]

Is this still mundane at this point though?

[Moonlight]

It’s not but I was being a bit facetious when I initially suggested we look for it because I didn’t think it would be practical to locate.

[Technopeasant]

It’s not but I was being a bit facetious when I initially suggested we look for it because I didn’t think it would be practical to locate.

[Ian Symes]

Lovely stuff, thank you Quinn and KT!

[GlenTokyo]

I actually think the theme music is quite good, it’s not amazing but I like how unusual it is, although it does also have a hint of ITV nightscreen. I did know it was Todd Rundgren, what with the credit, but always thought it was weird that it was done by him, a bit like the 90s Spider-man cartoon theme being done by Joe Perry (though I think he was just the performer in that case).

Good find.

[Moonlight]

The theme music is such a wonderful time capsule for 1992.

[Ben Saunders]

This place in Legion has to be the most unconvincing location I have ever seen. Even as a child it didn’t register to me as anything other than some office building or other on Earth. That whole section between landing in the space station and Rimmer becoming hard-light feels like a dream sequence, with the ethereal music and the bright lights, the hazy picture and the very un-Dwarf location all combining to make everything feel so surreal.

[MichelleLyons]

Yeah, I get what you mean. The place they filmed that was Marco Polo House, I think? Built in 1987, and only a couple of years before it was the HQ of the ill-fated, Murdoch-strangled British Satelitte Broadcasting (of “Squarial” fame) – at the time of filming, QVC had moved in.

[Dave]

I always feel the same, especially when they’re meeting Legion after coming down in the lift. It just looks like they’re in a shopping centre or a leisure centre or something. 

[GlenTokyo]

Naff location perhaps, but some great coordination to get the studio sets made up with the same colour palette and exposed scaffold motif. 

[Hamish]

Which begs the question of course of why a space station should not look like a shopping centre? Both are intended as large spaces where humans are meant to gather and do business.

[Podey]

One of the things I love about Red Dwarf in the novels is that it has its own rail network within the ship. Totally makes sense. I’m surprised that hasn’t made it to the screen in the Dave era, especially as it adds a new strand for satire. 

(not that I particularly want to watch an episode where the train attendant stutters go on strike and our crew can’t get to the places they need to be…)

[Dave]

Which begs the question of course of why a space station should not look like a shopping centre? Both are intended as large spaces where humans are meant to gather and do business.

Maybe they could have started on a sofa with French windows and then you pan out and somehow this is all on a spaceship. 

[Dave]

One of the things I love about Red Dwarf in the novels is that it has its own rail network within the ship. Totally makes sense. I’m surprised that hasn’t made it to the screen in the Dave era, especially as it adds a new strand for satire. 

(not that I particularly want to watch an episode where the train attendant stutters go on strike and our crew can’t get to the places they need to be…)

I guess maybe the size of the ship and the crew in the novels justifies that better in the TV series. But it would be a fun addition to the show.

[Ian Symes]

Yeah, I get what you mean. The place they filmed that was Marco Polo House, I think? Built in 1987, and only a couple of years before it was the HQ of the ill-fated, Murdoch-strangled British Satelitte Broadcasting (of “Squarial” fame) – at the time of filming, QVC had moved in.

That’s the one – practically a brand new building when Dwarf filmed there, now demolished. Bizarre.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

One of the things I love about Red Dwarf in the novels is that it has its own rail network within the ship. Totally makes sense. I’m surprised that hasn’t made it to the screen in the Dave era, especially as it adds a new strand for satire. 

(not that I particularly want to watch an episode where the train attendant stutters go on strike and our crew can’t get to the places they need to be…)

You see it in VIII. I’m certain there’s VisFX shots of the exterior but can’t remember where

this scene (and others) are meant to be the internal carriage 

[solidbronze]

If Lister is his own father, the sequence in The Inquisitor where he’s replaced with the Jake Abrahams sperm-in-law has bizarre implications for his heritage. For everyone else, a different sperm from your father fertilises an egg and you’re different. For Lister, a different Craig Charles-sperm fertilises an egg, and produces Jake Abrahams-Lister, who presumably has a completely different set of sperm again, which then fertilises an egg. This can’t produce Jake Abrahams-Lister as he was a product of Craig Charles-Lister’s swimmers, so it makes a different person again – a third Lister – who then has another complete set of different sperm, which fertilises an egg, and the whole cycle repeats…. = recursive Listers!

Sorry for saying sperm so much.

[Unrumble]

Sorry for saying sperm so much.

[Nick R]

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

If Lister is his own father, the sequence in The Inquisitor where he’s replaced with the Jake Abrahams sperm-in-law has bizarre implications for his heritage. For everyone else, a different sperm from your father fertilises an egg and you’re different. For Lister, a different Craig Charles-sperm fertilises an egg, and produces Jake Abrahams-Lister, who presumably has a completely different set of sperm again, which then fertilises an egg. This can’t produce Jake Abrahams-Lister as he was a product of Craig Charles-Lister’s swimmers, so it makes a different person again – a third Lister – who then has another complete set of different sperm, which fertilises an egg, and the whole cycle repeats…. = recursive Listers!

Sorry for saying sperm so much.

The implication is that Lister isn’t going round and round in time, but creating new timelines each time he has a kid with Kochanski. 

[solidbronze]

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Well yes that’s the dialogue, doesn’t mean that’s the reality of the situation 

[Podey]

this scene (and others) are meant to be the internal carriage 

This totally feels like it should be the case, but they’re on the little Canaries ship. This model shot immediately precedes that scene:

[Warbodog]

Pete Part II. It was in the trailer too, and I thought “wow, it’s going to be like the books.”

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Ah so they’re using the same set, just got the wrong episode. 

[cwickham]

After relating an anecdote about filming Stuff at the same time as Red Dwarf earlier on this week’s House of Games, Alexei Sayle has now gotten a point for saying “Wilma Flintstone”.

[Technopeasant]

This can’t produce Jake Abrahams-Lister as he was a product of Craig Charles-Lister’s swimmers, so it makes a different person again – a third Lister – who then has another complete set of different sperm, which fertilises an egg, and the whole cycle repeats…. = recursive Listers!

I mean, it could also be a different ovum from Kochanski, especially since her’s were extracted rather than implanted in her own womb.

I suppose we have to assume The Inquisitor was not aware of the mess of things he was causing by trying to wipe out Lister in the first place.

[GlenTokyo]

Unless I’m missing something, I’m not sure how Craig Charles can’t produce a Jake Abraham, while Lister is his own Dad, he had family above himself in the family tree before the holding pattern business right? Jake Abraham could look like his Granddad on either his paternal or maternal side, or take more traits from Kochanski’s side.

Granddad Grandma

Scifi bollocks 

Lister Kochanski

Lister Kochanski

Lister Kochanski

[Starbugger]

Unless I’m missing something, I’m not sure how Craig Charles can’t produce a Jake Abraham, while Lister is his own Dad, he had family above himself in the family tree before the holding pattern business right?

I don’t think so. He had an adoptive family but he’s a clone of himself of a clone of himself of a clone of himself.

[GlenTokyo]

I’ve hurt my brain now.

It’s a bit chicken and egg. When did the first Lister appear and from where? The one that started the time loop had to come from somewhere. 

[Moonlight]

I think it’s time to start taking some of those famous philosophical arguments about the existence of God and applying them to Lister.

For example, is Lister the Prime Mover? Discuss. Preferably after a few joints.

[Ben Saunders]

Amazon delivery drivers are the Prime movers

[Moonlight]

The ontological implications of what this makes Jeff Bezos are frankly terrifying.

[Flap Jack]

In The Inquisitor’s new timeline, Jake Abraham Lister is the father of Jake Abraham Lister. It has to be a time loop for it to fit at all.

But of course Lister has non-Lister ancestors too. Kochanski is his mum, so all of Kochanski’s ancestors are also his ancestors.

[Dave]

In The Inquisitor’s new timeline, Jake Abraham Lister is the father of Jake Abraham Lister. It has to be a time loop for it to fit at all.

Maybe in the original Inquisitor timeline(s) Lister was never his own dad at all. It’s only once the Inquisitor erases himself from existence that a brand new Inquisitor-free timeline is created in which Lister is his own father. The Inquisitor would never have stood for any of that time-loop shenanigans.

[Dave]

Talking of the Inquisitor, isn’t it weird that he appears to the crew, and judges them, way in advance of their own lifetimes being over?

After the Inquisitor judges them in that episode, Lister goes on to do loads of great things including helping save the Cat people from their tyrant king, Rimmer goes on to become an interdimensional heroic Ace Rimmer variant, Kryten is instrumental in resurrecting the entire crew of Red Dwarf and liberates a space station full of other mechanoids, and Cat… er… has sex with a Polymorph?

Surely it would make sense to take all those things into account rather than judging them halfway through their lives.

[Warbodog]

Surely it would make sense to take all those things into account rather than judging them halfway through their lives.

Maybe they were about to die on Starbug for whatever reason in the Inquisitor timeline and that was averted by the butterfly effect of the revised timeline.

[solidbronze]

They were all about to die in the next episode (sunk in Starbug on the Terrorforming planet) until killing the Inquisitor unravelled this timeline. Kryten realised the importance Rimmer had to the crew when he is killed by The Inquisitor and was subsequently able to see that building his confidence in Terrorform would allow them to escape in Starbug. Or something.

EDIT: Great minds…

[Warbodog]

I got to post first for being too lazy to bother thinking of a scenario.

[Formica]

The Inquisitor “lets” everybody he visits “kill” him, in a calculated manner such that it inspires his “victims” to live their lives to the most justifiable once he leaves.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Talking of the Inquisitor, isn’t it weird that he appears to the crew, and judges them, way in advance of their own lifetimes being over?

After the Inquisitor judges them in that episode, Lister goes on to do loads of great things including helping save the Cat people from their tyrant king, Rimmer goes on to become an interdimensional heroic Ace Rimmer variant, Kryten is instrumental in resurrecting the entire crew of Red Dwarf and liberates a space station full of other mechanoids, and Cat… er… has sex with a Polymorph?
Surely it would make sense to take all those things into account rather than judging them halfway through their lives.

Isn’t it weird he appears to Rimmer *after* he died

[Warbodog]

Isn’t it weird he appears to Rimmer *after* he died

Like the Justice Computer and Dimension Jump drive, the Inquisitor treats holograms as valid life forms and a continuation of the person.

Doesn’t care for ships’ computers though.

[Warbodog]

Maybe they were about to die on Starbug for whatever reason in the Inquisitor timeline and that was averted by the butterfly effect of the revised timeline.

Him being a Grim Reaper doesn’t work anyway, because he wouldn’t replace someone if they were just about to die, would he.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Isn’t it weird he appears to Rimmer *after* he died

Like the Justice Computer and Dimension Jump drive, the Inquisitor treats holograms as valid life forms and a continuation of the person.
Doesn’t care for ships’ computers though.

I’m in the camp that Rimmer *is* Rimmer and as you say a continuation of the person 

But it breaks the Inquisitors own logic, as technically all people have infinite opportunity to live a worthwhile life as soon as there is potential to live forever as a hologram 

[Unrumble]

Isn’t it weird he appears to Rimmer *after* he died

Like the Justice Computer and Dimension Jump drive, the Inquisitor treats holograms as valid life forms and a continuation of the person.
Doesn’t care for ships’ computers though.

Now have a weird mental image of the Inquisitor appearing to living Rimmer in the pre-accident, grey sets.

[solidbronze]

Maybe they were about to die on Starbug for whatever reason in the Inquisitor timeline and that was averted by the butterfly effect of the revised timeline.

Him being a Grim Reaper doesn’t work anyway, because he wouldn’t replace someone if they were just about to die, would he.

I imagined he replaces them retrospectively with someone who did live a more worthwhile life. I don’t know if he then re-assesses that person though.

[clem]

I imagined he replaces them retrospectively with someone who did live a more worthwhile life. I don’t know if he then re-assesses that person though.

That seems to be how it works given that in the altered timeline, Cat and Rimmer evidently know the replacement Lister and Kryten. But as Jake Abraham Lister appears to be very similar to OG Lister and in the exact same circumstances, it seems as though he’s made pretty much the same life choices and would also be deleted, so maybe the Inquisitor just keeps on judging and replacing until a randomly selected sperm produces a worthy alternate version. 

[Author]

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