on today's episode of "What The Fuck", Thanks For The Memory

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  • #234906

    flanl3

    How the hell did they erase Lister’s and Cat’s memories in Thanks For The Memory with only access to the hologram simulation suite?

    #234909

    Hamish

    In a very clever way that was promptly forgotten.

    #234910

    bloodteller

    they hit themselves hard, with wood

    #234911

    Warbofrog

    Blatant clue that they’re also holograms (hard light) and Red Dwarf is a purgatory ghost ship.

    #234912

    GlenTokyo

    In the Red Dwarf universe they’re very blasé when it comes to being able to do amazing things to and with the human brain.

    Holograms. Can scan a human mind in full and generate a program that emulates it with great accuracy, to the point that they’re treated as human.

    Mind wipes/ mind swaps. Implies that the technology for holograms is so in depth and complex that it’s fully compatible with actual human minds.

    Dream recorder. Access the unconscious mind without apparatus (that we know of) and record and render dreams.

    BTL. Stick things in your brain with no issue, one size fits all. Tap in to frontal lobes and hypothalamus and simulate anything you want.

    Mechanoids. Synthetic organic brains. Last millions of years.

    #234915

    flanl3

    Are mechanoids explicitly synthetic organic brains? Perhaps they were humans whose bodies were captured, minds were stolen, and were put into bodies to have all their processing power devoted to calculation in a torturous manner, while entirely synthetic parts did all the programmed stuff.

    Also, certainly scanning/reading somebody’s mind is a simpler task than altering it (as in this case), no?

    #235194

    tombow

    holly hypnotized them to forget with subliminals planted in flintstones episodes.

    #235235

    International Debris

    Did they ever make versions of the jigsaw to sell? Because if not, that’s a hell of a missed opportunity.

    #235448

    GlenTokyo

    How does Ace know what a series 4000 mechanoid is? Rimmer and Lister are from let’s say the early 23rd century and Kryten the mid 24th, at best the series 4000s would be getting designed by Mamet and going through testing while Rimmer and Lister are approaching their 120th birthdays.

    #235449

    bloodteller

    It’s a parallel universe, isn’t it? Maybe mechanoids were invented earlier.

    It’s like how in Stoke Me A Clipper, the Nazis are around at the same time as jet-powered rocket bikes.

    #235450

    GlenTokyo

    Ace and our Rimmer had the same life until they were 8 or whatever though, which implies everything else is broadly the same unless Ace had a hand in inventing the tech that makes Kryten possible.

    I blame Paul Alexander for the Nazi/ Jet powered but otherwise obviously a 90’s Motocross bike issue haha

    #235451

    flanl3

    I mean, maybe what took Ace so long in that shed was fixing a normal bike up to be rocket-powered. Wouldn’t be surprised.

    #235454

    Seb Patrick

    How does Ace know what a series 4000 mechanoid is? Rimmer and Lister are from let’s say the early 23rd century and Kryten the mid 24th, at best the series 4000s would be getting designed by Mamet and going through testing while Rimmer and Lister are approaching their 120th birthdays.

    The computer onboard Ace’s ship did a scan of the lifeforms onboard and gave him a rundown. He didn’t necessarily know what a “Series 4000” was, just that Kryten was one, and because he’s a really nice guy he immediately told Kryten that he was the salt of the space corps.

    #235455

    Seb Patrick

    >It’s like how in Stoke Me A Clipper, the Nazis are around at the same time as jet-powered rocket bikes.

    Well, they’re around at the same time as Ace’s jet-powered rocket bike. He could have brought it with him when he travelled through time. Then again, he’s rescuing someone called Princess Beryl Bonjela who I don’t think is an established part of mid-20th century German history, so it is probably just that he’s in a universe where Nazis are more widespread/longer lasting.

    #235465

    GlenTokyo

    He knows they’re not waterproof, don’t think that’s the kind of information that a lifeform scan would pick up.

    Also he wasn’t aware that Rimmer was a hologram so I don’t think the computer is up to much to be honest.

    #235469

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Stoke Me a Clipper doesn’t bother me, the rocket-propelled space bike could’ve just been technology he picked up from one of his many adventures. Ace also fixing-up a motorcross bike to have jet-capabilities in the matter of seconds would also be quite amusing too.

    Ace being a high-ranking Space Corps official could’ve known about the Series 3000 being in the concept-phase, and when he came upon Kryten and noticed the differences he had from the 3000 he could’ve taken a guess that he was a 4000 model. The waterproof thing might’ve also been a guess as well.

    #235471

    bloodteller

    is the Ace in Dimension Jump meant to be the original Ace, though? Only 200 years pass between IV and VII, and yet the ring of the planet is made up of a near-infinite amount of Rimmers. Unless the Aces were all dropping like flies, there’s no way they got that many in just 2 centuries.

    #235474

    GlenTokyo

    >is the Ace in Dimension Jump meant to be the original Ace, though? Only 200 years pass between IV and VII, and yet the ring of the planet is made up of a near-infinite amount of Rimmers. Unless the Aces were all dropping like flies, there’s no way they got that many in just 2 centuries.

    I had thought that. I feel like since Stoke Me a Clipper that was written after DJ (and post Rob) that it’s more likely that the Ace we follow is the one that turns up in our dimension. I always felt Stoke… having the new Ace thing was a way a reaction to the “can’t go back” line personally, a rare nod to continuity.

    Can never know for sure though. And I suppose it doesn’t matter but if we didn’t discuss things that didn’t matter we wouldn’t discuss much on here haha

    #235476

    Seb Patrick

    >is the Ace in Dimension Jump meant to be the original Ace, though?

    Well… yeah. His jump into “our” universe is the first jump he ever makes.

    #235477

    Seb Patrick

    And it would be a really weird episode if we met a guy at the start of it and then it cut to a completely different guy arriving for the rest of the episode with no explanation whatsoever.

    #235479

    bloodteller

    Right, but in Stoke Me A Clipper Ace specifies he took over from the Ace they met in Dimension Jump. Which would mean there’s only a total of 2 Aces- and yet the planet’s ring contains the corpses of millions.

    #235480

    bloodteller

    I suppose it would be a pretty lousy planet ring if it only contained 2 corpses

    #235483

    GlenTokyo

    Every decision makes a new dimension though, so the one Ace from DJ may have passed the torch to the Ace in VII but the Ace in VII is just one Ace out if the thousands if not millions that exist in the dimensions of the alternative decisions DJ Ace makes.

    What’s interesting is that planet exists in all the dimensions and is viewable to all dimensions.

    #235485

    International Debris

    Doesn’t he say “Let’s just say there have been more than two” or something.

    Given that three million years separate Ace’s departure date and his arrival in our universe, I think the line in Backwards about him arriving in the same time period as each universe’s Rimmer can probably be taken as canon, in which case the planet’s ring hasn’t amassed in linear time, so I don’t think the number matters.

    #235487

    flanl3

    Well Ace can surely jump through time to go right from fighting Nazisto three million years in the future, so I think it’s safe to say it’s more than 200 years of Aces.

    #235488

    Seb Patrick

    Right, but in Stoke Me A Clipper Ace specifies he took over from the Ace they met in Dimension Jump. Which would mean there’s only a total of 2 Aces- and yet the planet’s ring contains the corpses of millions.

    He says he took over from him, but it’s later clarified that he didn’t do so directly.

    #235490

    Pete Part Three

    >And it would be a really weird episode if we met a guy at the start of it and then it cut to a completely different guy arriving for the rest of the episode with no explanation whatsoever.

    Sudden inclination to rewatch a very good film of the last ten years.

    #235491

    Pete Part Three

    >Well… yeah. His jump into “our” universe is the first jump he ever makes.

    I don’t think you can say that for certain. There’s nothing in the dialogue to indicate that it’s the first dimension he jumps to. In fact, I’ve always found the line “I’m sorry, you reminded me of a fellow I once knew” jarring, as it could be read that he hasn’t seen Spanners for quite a while.

    #235494

    Ian Symes

    G&T Admin

    it is probably just that he’s in a universe where Nazis are more widespread/longer lasting.

    That’s our universe.

    #235495

    Ben Saunders

    Yeah I always took it as read that the Ace wee see throughout Dimension Jump is Ace Prime, but it very easily could be read as there being a timejump between the then and now

    #235497

    Dave

    All of that ‘I can’t go back’ speech at the end heavily supports the idea that this is his first jump, I think. As does his reaction when meeting ‘our’ Rimmer, assuming it’s sincere.

    #235499

    flanl3

    I’d say the opposite, actually. If it was his first jump, it would be “I don’t think I can go back” since he hadn’t tested such a theory for certain.

    #235500

    Pete Part Three

    >All of that ‘I can’t go back’ speech at the end

    Yeah, but he’s spends the entire episode telling all and sundry he’ll be back for breakfast. The man’s a cretin.

    #235501

    bloodteller

    Why did he even test out an unsafe experimental drive that even if it were successful, would leave him unable to see any of his loved ones ever again or return home?

    #235502

    bloodteller

    Nobody really seemed to mind either, and barely anyone was there to see him off when he left. Did everyone actually think Ace was a complete wanker and were glad to be rid of him?

    #235504

    Pete Part Three

    If they were going to have just 4 people waving him off, they should have put them in some kind control room, rather than having them standing in a huge greenscreened cargo bay with ample room for extras.

    Either he’s running away from god-knows-what, or he has nothing worth living for in the first place. Oh wait, that’s something else.

    #235507

    GlenTokyo

    I bet Mellie’s husband doesn’t like him much if she’s got one.

    #235509

    Dave

    I like the idea that it was nothing to do with it being a top-secret project, he just didn’t have any mates.

    #235513

    International Debris

    “So, did it work?”
    “No idea, but at least Ace has fucked off”

    #235518

    Ben Saunders

    >Did everyone actually think Ace was a complete wanker and were glad to be rid of him?
    I love this interpretation. He probably got somebody pregnant or couldn’t keep up with his six alimony payments

    #235528

    Flap Jack

    Getting back to the OP for a second, I just wanted to mention that they also wiped Lister’s memory in M-Corp, so it’s clear that Red Dwarf having the ability to alter the memories of living people is not a one-off fudge, but deliberately consistent.

    #235539

    Ben Saunders

    I had some idea a while ago (or maybe it was someone else) that each new Ace would download the memories of all previous Aces from his ship’s memory banks after taking over, so that he actually knew what the fuck he was doing and wouldn’t awkwardly bump into people that “he” had met before, but wouldn’t recognise.

    Do you think there have ever been female Ace Rimmers?

    #235541

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Red Dwarf can alter people’s memories and record their dreams, frankly it already sounded like a prison before VIII

    #235542

    bloodteller

    That’s the whole thing though, isn’t it? They have all these machines that can alter your mind and record your thoughts, which seems pretty nightmarish to us as the viewer, but to them it’s just a mundane utility. To the characters, a lot of the weird and dystopian stuff seems fairly normal

    #235543

    Lily

    >Do you think there have ever been female Ace Rimmers?

    I don’t see why not. I could totally see Arlene going out there kicking arse.

    #235546

    International Debris

    I had some idea a while ago (or maybe it was someone else) that each new Ace would download the memories of all previous Aces from his ship’s memory banks after taking over

    Time for my weekly mention of Karnie’s wonderful post-VIII fanfic, Homecoming, in which this is mentioned.

    #235556

    Plastic Percy

    The Talkie Toaster interview with Arlene Rimmer has her mention she took over from another female Ace Rimmer and even includes this little image.

    http://www.reddwarf.co.uk/features/fiction/arlene-rimmer/arlene_5.jpg

    Also, the interview with Princess Bonjella suggests her planet was called War World and some vague conflict came about that turned the entire planet into, well, a war.

    #235580

    International Debris

    War World is also mentioned, by name, in Homecoming.

    #235607

    Dave

    “I’ll write you into my will if you let it be me.”

    Does a hologram have a will? Wouldn’t Rimmer’s will have already been executed after he died?

    Can a hologram even own anything, legally?

    None of these questions will ever be answered.

    #235615

    quinn_drummer

    It’s likely that holograms can’t have wills as they are the property of the ship they are running in – an assumption I’m making based on if a higher ranking crew member dies they can just switch you off, and the fact holograms are stated not to have equal rights with the living.

    However, Rimmer probably does have a will, though not much of one. He is treated as equal amongst the living crew post accident as anyone else, and he does have possessions … though Lister did burn the most valuable. Regardless I wouldn’t put it past Rimmer to have written one, excluding Lister from it, just to get one up on him if nothing else

    #235619

    Warbofrog

    Why does Kryten say “come rain or shine, we’d always make time for curry night” when there’s no weather on Starbug??? Don’t give me this “he’s speaking colloquially” smeg.

    #235620

    GlenTokyo

    Another low key super dystopian Red Dwarf thing. The hologram that reads the news, presumably they pay her, but she’s a privately operated hologram so her wages go in part to sustaining her form, so if she gets sacked or leaves or otherwise isn’t earning, she gets switched off when she can no longer afford it.

    Or they don’t pay her, brought her back and they use her as free labour.

    #235625

    Hamish

    She could just be a limited newscaster hologram, not the sum of an entire person’s personality and knowledge like Rimmer and company are.

    #235626

    Ben Saunders

    Groovy Funky Channel 27 would be all about hologram rights though so they would probably treat her like a real person

    #235627

    bloodteller

    >Why does Kryten say “come rain or shine, we’d always make time for curry night” when there’s no weather on Starbug??? Don’t give me this “he’s speaking colloquially” smeg.

    Well there’s a wind tunnel on Starbug so maybe there is weather

    #235628

    flanl3

    He’s using a common saying.

    “Please explain to me why Lister was the only person who survived the accident, but don’t give me any of this ‘he was in stasis and everybody else was in the path of the radiation leak’ smeg.”

    Unless you were making fun of this thread, in which case, well played.

    #235651

    Seb Patrick

    I don’t think you can say that for certain. There’s nothing in the dialogue to indicate that it’s the first dimension he jumps to. In fact, I’ve always found the line “I’m sorry, you reminded me of a fellow I once knew” jarring, as it could be read that he hasn’t seen Spanners for quite a while.

    I mean, you could infer it, sure, but the through line of the episode is very much “Ace goes to another dimension and meets Arnold Rimmer. He then, according to the text scroll at the end, goes off through countless other dimensions and finds other Rimmers who aren’t as pathetic.”

    I think that’s somewhat scuppered if the time he arrives to meet “our” crew is just the latest in a long line of other meetings. It would also be a bit weird that he talks about potentially staying, but then decides to move on because Arnold is such a maggot. He brings up the possibility of countless other universes as if it’s the first time it’s been thought about.

    IN CONCLUSION if you want to retrofit a load of different Ace adventures (and possibly even this being an actually different guy from the start of the episode) inbetween the first few minutes of Dimension Jump and the rest of it, there’s nothing in the episode that specifically precludes it, but I also don’t know why you would or what it would serve.

    #235652

    bloodteller

    Honestly the whole thing of Ace travelling to multiple different dimensions and meeting all kinds of different Rimmers sounds like an interesting concept for a whole series. Each week he meets a completely different Rimmer etc.

    #235653

    bloodteller

    I suppose that would get tiresome after a while but I’d watch it for at least 6 episodes

    #235654

    International Debris

    It’s one of the better Red Dwarf spinoff possibilities. Certainly more potential than Camille and Hector in the lab for 22 episodes.

    #235656

    Pete Part Three

    >It would also be a bit weird that he talks about potentially staying, but then decides to move on because Arnold is such a maggot.

    It’s already a bit weird that someone who decided to leave their own dimension in the course of a 2 minute conversation with Bongo, would even consider stopping his adventures after one jump and settle down in deep space with only 4 humanoids for company. That’s a bit of a downgrade, Shirley?. Maybe he’s not seriously considered it at all, or maybe he’s already jumped around to so many dimensions that he’s considering settling down.

    #235660

    Dave

    Maybe Dimension Jumping was a horrible, unpleasant experience that he never wants to repeat.

    #235665

    bloodteller

    I don’t think Rob and Doug even thought it through this far, so I’d say it’s open to interpretation

    #235717

    Ian Symes

    G&T Admin

    Honestly the whole thing of Ace travelling to multiple different dimensions and meeting all kinds of different Rimmers sounds like an interesting concept for a whole series. Each week he meets a completely different Rimmer etc.

    It did, kind of, in comic strip form in the Smegazine. Ace of the Rovers was a particular highlight.

    #236095

    peas_and_corn

    Why did Starbug have dog food when they have a no pets rule?

    #236096

    Dave

    For the dog that produced the dog’s milk.

    #236098

    International Debris

    I asked that recently. Some good answers were given. I can’t remember many of them, however. Guide dog, maybe?

    #236118

    Ian Symes

    G&T Admin

    Only *unquarantined* animals are explicitly banned.

    #236132

    Hamish

    “The rules about dinosaurs aboard JMC mining ships are very clear. No pets. Am I right? Am I right!?”

    – Captain Hollister, Pete Part Two

    #236134

    bloodteller

    >Why did Starbug have dog food when they have a no pets rule?

    There was a man who had a roverostomy on Red Dwarf, they needed it to feed him. Sorted

    #236137

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Why did Red Dwarf have a cow onboard

    #236138

    Pete Part Three

    Would you like some seed?

    #236139

    Flap Jack

    Hollister doesn’t really understand the rules. He’s Dennis the Doughnut Boy, remember?

    Or, please accept one of the following explanations:

    • Pets aren’t allowed, but assistance/working animals are.
    • The “No pets” rule only applies to prisoners.
    • Dog food was kept in storage as an emergency food for the human crew, because JMC are cheap.
    • Hollister was just joking.
    • Other people had smuggled dogs aboard in the past, and they brought the dog food on board then.
    • Pete isn’t canon.

    I mean, even Pete itself contradicts the “No pets” thing, because bird guy is able to bring Pete aboard while he’s still in bird form, and nobody ever confiscated him.

    Or maybe there was a line where they say that he was keeping Pete a total secret this whole time, but like hell I’m going to rewatch the episodes to check.

    #236140

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Ye, Birdman gives the explanation that he was smuggling Pete up his asshole when Lister and Rimmer first meet him; that’s what makes the joke of Pete shitting on Hollister funnier due to the irony. Surprised you don’t remember that, it’s pretty funny on repeat viewings

    #236143

    Plastic Percy

    What about the laboratory mice?

    #236144

    Dave

    Or the squirrel in the botanical gardens.

    #236147

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Both were smuggled by Birdman too, in his rectal compartment; this was all explained in the deleted scene, why do you think he’s in solitary confinement anyway?

    #236156

    bloodteller

    >Why did Red Dwarf have a cow onboard

    Surely the whole joke of that scene is how utterly bizarre it is that they managed to find a whole frozen cow onboard? Hence the line “The whole hog? Like it wasn’t hard enough getting the whole cow?”

    As for where it came from, I dunno. Maybe they needed it for beef

    #236158

    International Debris

    The ‘no pets’ line is obviously said in a jokey way, so it may well not be true.
    Also they might use dogs for security, for customs, etc., as well as assistance dogs.

    #236166

    Seb Patrick

    The dog food was found “in the tool cupboard”. Maybe it was in a toolkit left there by a forgetful engineer who serviced Starbug on shore, and also owned a dog.

    #236169

    Dave

    Maybe the Dog from Parallel Universe gave it to Cat as a present when they dropped off Jim and Bexley between series II and III.

    #236171

    Flap Jack

    Red Dwarf is a mining ship, yeah? So they must have mined it. They drilled down deep into the crust of Purina, the dog food planet, and mined the hell out of that dog food.

    Or, OK, maybe they were just transporting it. Either way, they only had it to sell, not to give to dog passengers.

    All of these explanations for the dog food are canon at the same time as far as I’m concerned.

    #236176

    GlenTokyo

    Maybe that Starbug was transferred from civilian ownership and they had a dog.

    #236177

    Dave

    I like the idea of a little old lady owning a Starbug and only using it once a week to go to the supermarket.

    #236191

    GlenTokyo

    I always go on the books and the Hoppers basically being Blue Midgets (remastered) so maybe a Starbug is like a Campervan in the Red Dwarf Universe.

    #236193

    Ben Saunders

    >Hence the line “The whole hog? Like it wasn’t hard enough getting the whole cow?”
    One of the greatest British comedy writers of all time came up with that line.
    Christ.
    Don’t give up on your dreams, people.

    #236219

    quinn_drummer

    >Hence the line “The whole hog? Like it wasn’t hard enough getting the whole cow?”
    One of the greatest British comedy writers of all time came up with that line.
    Christ.
    Don’t give up on your dreams, people.

    *shame mode* – I actually quite like that line.

    #236221

    GlenTokyo

    I feel like that line is the kind of thing idiot Lister would have said in the first or second series. He got cleverer in III.

    Far from the worst thing about that episode.

    #236225

    bloodteller

    >I feel like that line is the kind of thing idiot Lister would have said in the first or second series. He got cleverer in III.

    But Lister doesn’t say that line, Cat does

    >*shame mode* – I actually quite like that line.

    Yeah, same

    #236226

    GlenTokyo

    >But Lister doesn’t say that line, Cat does

    Memory fail. A sign of my sanity that I don’t know Pete off by heart?

    Still makes sense though, it does sound like an idiot Lister line.

    I don’t have a problem with it as a cat line either really. He’s gained most of Lister’s stupidity when Lister became quite intelligent but lazy.

    #236227

    tombow

    I watched DNA recently and it seemed unbelievable that Kryten has served humans for a long time but has such ignorance about them (socket up the bum etc)

    #236229

    Bargain Bin Holly

    I just chalk it up to computer senility from Kryten’s 3 million year imprisonment aboard the Nova-5

    I wonder if the three girls just got old and died onboard or they knew there was no way out of this and killed themselves

    #236235

    International Debris

    I watched DNA recently and it seemed unbelievable that Kryten has served humans for a long time but has such ignorance about them (socket up the bum etc)

    Yeah, given that he’s generally the one they turn to for medical issues, it’s a bit odd that he thinks turning nipples can receive radio transmissions.

    #236236

    Bargain Bin Holly

    Think the first time Kryten acted as the medical droid was in Justice after D.N.A.

    #236237

    GlenTokyo

    Maybe a lot of his knowledge is cloud based and when he was made human he lost the ability to access it.

    #236238

    Unrumble

    I guess it makes sense. With a human brain, he’d presumably lose the sheer capacity/processing power of his mechanoid CPU, and would get confused.

    #236240

    tombow

    I guess with the nova 5 girls they must have died at the same time. after all if one died the others would have not allowed Kryten to play they were alive.

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