Plot hole in ‘Ouroboros’

[JamesTC]

Watching ‘Ouroboros’ I was thinking of Lister being is own father, I really like the idea but it opens up a plot hole, how is the other Hologram Lister in existence since the other universe doesn’t have a baby Lister under the pool table.

The only solution I can come up with is that up until the point Kochanski discovers the Cat (which is were the dimensions changed) everything was exactly the same and in the same universe, so even Lister being his own father in one universe means in others he exists but his father is another version of himself, does that make sense?

Oh and a quick note on the Time Drive, though in ‘Out of Time’ it could only go in time the dimensions merged as Kryten says and the Time Drive from the future and the past merged to make a working Time Drive that could go all around the universe. This also explains Star Bug being the TARDIS.

Topic

[Tarka Dal]

RED DWARF IN PLOT INCONSISTENCY SHOCK.

[JamesTC]

I know it is has alot but I found that plot hole interesting and I have not heard it mentioned before.

[Jonathan Capps]

That’s nothing compared to the plethora of comedy holes in Ouroboros.

[Pete Part Three]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22%E2%80%94All_You_Zombies%E2%80%94%22

>The only solution I can come up with is that up until the point Kochanski discovers the Cat (which is were the dimensions changed) everything was exactly the same and in the same universe, so even Lister being his own father in one universe means in others he exists but his father is another version of himself, does that make sense?

.

[Tarka Dal]

Well the Ouroboros thing isn’t really a plot hole. It’s a temporal paradox. You could raise the same point about BTTF or any time-travel story that plays up causality.

> Oh and a quick note on the Time Drive, though in ?Out of Time? it could only go in time the dimensions merged as Kryten says and the Time Drive from the future and the past merged to make a working Time Drive that could go all around the universe. This also explains Star Bug being the TARDIS.

You think I’ll believe anything you say, don’t you?

[Seb Patrick]

The only solution I can come up with is that up until the point Kochanski discovers the Cat (which is were the dimensions changed) everything was exactly the same and in the same universe, so even Lister being his own father in one universe means in others he exists but his father is another version of himself, does that make sense?

This.

[ChrisM]

They have different uniforms in that universe though don’t they? Does that mean the split happened further back? ;)

Or just imagine the universes are the same? (This is probably more likely and allows for the Lister being his own father in multiple universes.)

As for the Time drive explanation, yeah, that’s what I thought. Another explanation, I figured was simply that the timedrive could always travel through time and space. Kryten just didn’t figure it out until later (off-screen.)

[ChrisM]

Here’s something else I was wondering. It’s not a plot hole so much, just something I’m curious about.

In Rimmer world due to time dilation traveling through a wormhole effectively takes the crew centuries into the future. So what happens when they travel back? To they travel back through time to when they left, or do they travel the same period of time into the future again?

No wonder they lost RD’s trail. ;)

[Danny Stephenson]

In Rimmer world due to time dilation traveling through a wormhole effectively takes the crew centuries into the future. So what happens when they travel back? To they travel back through time to when they left, or do they travel the same period of time into the future again?

I was tempted to write “You mean ‘How did the war start’?” but i think i know what you’re getting at.

It took them 557 years to reach Rimmer, so does that mean that on the flip side of the wormhole there’s still a time dilation issue passing back through, taking yet another 557 years away?

Have I got that right? it’s an interesting idea anyway.

[ChrisM]

Yes, that’s it exactly.

That’s assuming they traveled back through. (I’d think they would a the wormhole would probably take them well out of their way of their pursuit of RD.)

[NitroChrisUK]

maybe im being thick but .. if lister is his own father .. and its an ongoing paradox .. how did it start where did the 1st lister come from :/ its a bit of a chicken and egg thing goin on … or maybe im just not seing the simple aswer

[Tarka Dal]

That’s surely the whole point of a temporal paradox?

[Pete Part Three]

Quite. There isn’t a “simple” answer.It doesn’t make sense, but that’s kind of the point of it.

Paradox
(noun)
3. any person, thing, or situation exhibiting an apparently contradictory nature.

Dictionary.com

[JamesTC]

I like a good paradox, it is one of the reasons I love ‘Out of Time’ – ‘Tikka to Ride’, you can never have enough paradox.

[Carlito]

I always thought a paradox was a place you kept two boats.

[NitroChrisUK]

i must admit “out of time ” is 1 of my all time favourate episodes .. and red dwarf was never really a series to care much for continuity .. in a good way .. i mean the lister from ” 5 years into the future ” who married kochanski in stasis leak .. watever happend to that ? haha yes GOTTA LOVE PARADOX .. wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff

[ChrisM]

>i mean the lister from ? 5 years into the future ? who married kochanski in stasis leak .. watever happend to that ?

I have a theory he came from a parallel universe. It throws his parting joke to our Lister in a whole new light…

[NitroChrisUK]

another thing .. in ouroborus it states that 18 months( i think its 18 months ) have passed between when lister filling the tube and him dropping of the baby … so that means kochanskis been on board for 18 months yes ??

then why in the followin episodes are they referring to her not long joining them aboard

[Carlito]

Yeah. In Duct Soup, Kochanski has been trying to fit in, even learning what “offside” was… obviously didn’t try hard enough if you’re still struggling to fit in and bothered by squeaking pipes 18 months later, biotch.

Of course, the events of Duct Soup, Blue and Beyond a Joke could have taken place during the 18 months she was on board prior to getting preggers.

That, or you just exposed a glaring plot hole I never noticed before.

[Carlito]

Plus of course the fact that somehow Lister managed to find his way to the Aigburth Arms in Liverpool more or less around the timeframe he was originally from, and opted to return to Red Dwarf 3 million years in deep space despite the whole objective of the show for Lister was to find Kochanski (check) and get to Earth (check).

Same thing in Tikka To Ride, when they end up on Earth (in Texas) with a time drive. Why would you even go back into deep space where you are lost and have no supplies, when you’re back on Earth?

[NitroChrisUK]

i guess the only reason for that is .. when they went to texas they messed up the timeline because they not part of it .. even if lister stayed in liverpool from when he was born i guess his presence would still somehow mess things up .. dont see the harm is just traveling back to the day he 1st left earth..wouldent change anything really apart from the fact that there would be 2 listers .. ops iv kinda buggerd that up aint i …this is all to confusing

[ChrisM]

Of course, the events of Duct Soup, Blue and Beyond a Joke could have taken place during the 18 months she was on board prior to getting preggers.

Yeah, that’s how I see it, except for the preggers bit. I’m not sure she ever had to actually carry the baby, I think it was all done artificially. Although I wouldn’t have thought Starbug would have that equipment… but… anyhow.

[JamesTC]

Plus of course the fact that somehow Lister managed to find his way to the Aigburth Arms in Liverpool more or less around the timeframe he was originally from, and opted to return to Red Dwarf 3 million years in deep space despite the whole objective of the show for Lister was to find Kochanski (check) and get to Earth (check).

Same thing in Tikka To Ride, when they end up on Earth (in Texas) with a time drive. Why would you even go back into deep space where you are lost and have no supplies, when you?re back on Earth?

In ‘Tikka to Ride’ x-tended it had the ending with Lister getting the curry back and he says something along the lines of “If only we can use this to get back to our time” and Kryten replies “Sir, look what happened with Dallas, who knows what would happen if we lived in the past permanently”.

[James]

There are hundreds of portholes in Red Dwarf, how else would they see out?

[JamesTC]

>There are hundreds of portholes in Red Dwarf, how else would they see out?
We are talking about Series 7 were it is set on Star Bug which only has one screen looking out and that is at the front.

[James]

That’s not entirely accurate.

[JamesTC]

Where is the other windows in Star Bug? I don’t remember seeing any apart from in ‘Tikka to Ride’ when the ship splits but that is windows in the middle of the ship.

[NitroChrisUK]

if u wanted to be picky u could say its not a window its just a glass panel on a door … but im not picky. apart from the main windows in cockpit there isnt any other windows in starbug as far as im aware .. if im wrong then ill stand corrected

[Carlito]

There’s loads of windows on Star Bug but by a strange coincidence, they were all on the hard camera side of the ship. How do you think we were watching them? They didn’t break the fourth wall, they put windows in it.

[JamesTC]

>They didn?t break the fourth wall, they put windows in it.

And cameras and a camera man and a writer, they just didn’t get around to mentioning them.

[Jonathan Capps]

OH MY GOD, MAKE IT STOP.

[Pete Part Three]

I’m leaving you, you cow!

[Tarka Dal]

> OH MY GOD, MAKE IT STOP.

This my friend is the price of New Dwarf.

[CleverAndKnowsIt]

Just something I’ve been thinking about recently, the original Kochanski seemed quite different to the one that we ended up with. She had a different accent, looked slightly different and seemed over all more Lister’s type. I was thinking that it’s possible that the Inquisitor would have confronted the Kochanski as we ended up with and erased her from history (replacing her with the one at the start of the series) but then when Lister had the Inquisitor erase himself from history (or at least that version of himself) the original Kochanski would be returned as well as Lister’s memories of her reverting back to memories of the original version. Does that make any sense?

[Phil]

>looked slightly different

I nominate this fragment for Serious Fucking Understatement status.

[ChrisM]

>Does that make any sense?

Actually, yes it does. Nice theory, except I doubt Chloe’s Kochanski would have been erased by the Inquisitor had he put her on trial. She’s hardly a waster. She’s achieved quite a lot in her life.

As to the differences between the two Kochanski’s, well from the characters’ point of view they look and (probably sound) exactly the same. The fact Grogan’s Kochanski seems more of a ‘lads girl’ could be put down to the fact that she’s simply warmer towards Lister. Taking Stasis Leak into account, when she appeared with him in The End, she was in fact married to his future self*, although he didn’t know it then. Maybe a bit of him had rubbed off. (So to speak. Non innuendos intended.)

If they’d brought her back to play Kochanski 2 she might have been just as snooty. (Although she’d likely retain the accent and be a bit less posh.) Fact is, we never saw enough of the original anyway to form her character properly. We made assumptions from what we saw, but she was largely an blank canvas.

The Being Human version of Kochanski is quite interesting as she is somewhere between the two we’ve seen. Actually most like Chloe’s version (and this is before she was drafted) but with some of the sauciness and mischief of Claire’s. Even the accent was in between, described as slight Scottish.

*This raises the question, did future Lister find a way to save her? Maybe that pile of dust is in fact someone else.

[hummingbird]

I think this ignores the fairly crucial point that Ms Grogan cannot, in fact, act her way out of a paper bag.
And I say that purely out of kindness, you understand.

[Phil]

>Ms Grogan cannot, in fact, act her way out of a paper bag

Still, I would love to see her try.

[Anonymous]

“I think this ignores the fairly crucial point that Ms Grogan cannot, in fact, act her way out of a paper bag.
And I say that purely out of kindness, you understand.”

This wins. Her cameo in Psirens is more wooden than the ‘post’ gag from VIII.

[pfm]

> The Being Human version of Kochanski

Is she a ghost?

[cliff]

Of course at some point in the distant future Bexley is going to explode (well, bits of him do) fiddling around with the navicom and a very old lister with a bottle opener hand is gonna to have to travel back in time to his old bunk…

…

[cliff]

?I think this ignores the fairly crucial point that Ms Grogan cannot, in fact, act her way out of a paper bag.
And I say that purely out of kindness, you understand.?

She still did something to me…………

[peas_and_corn]

>She still did something to me????

Do you have photos?

[cliff]

double polaroids!…

[ChrisM]

> The Being Human version of Kochanski

Is she a ghost?

Smeg. I’ve been really enjoying that show, so it’s obviously been at the back of my mind.

No she doesn’t have holographic status in LAST HUMAN.

[Plastic Percy]

When he was sentenced to Stasis it was only due to breaking quarantine regulations and refusing a direct order from the Captain.

When he went to The Tank it was for breaking quarantine regulations (bringing Cat and Kryten onboard), theft and destruction of Space Corps equipment (stealing and crashing a Starbug as well as severely damaging the recreated Holly), flying without a pilot’s license (Lister and Cat) and hacking confidential information (giving Rimmer access to the Captain’s confidential files).

[peas_and_corn]

I thought the theft charges and the piloting charges were dropped due to the psychotropic test proving their story was indeed correct

[Ian Symes]

Yeah, they were imprisoning for using confidential files. And of that they’re *all* guilty. Even Cat, Kryten and Kochanski, who were never seen using the confidential files at all.

[Stabbim the Skutter]

Isn’t there a scene where Hollister is talking to Egghead Holly and they establish that he’s only imprisoning them to stop them taking over the ship/telling the crew what’s happened/finding the nanobots and getting rid of the crew?

[ChrisM]

No. ;)

But I understand how something you imagined might seem true afterwards. (I’m not being funny, it happens a lot.)

[Author]

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