Titan: Part 5 & Epilogue – SPOILERS

[Ian Symes]

Welcome to the spoiler-laden discussion thread for Red Dwarf: Titan Part 5: Terug Op Rooi Dwerg and the Epilogue.

This is a place for no-holds-barred, detailed, nitty-gritty opinions and theories on everything in the final part of the book, and indeed your overall thoughts on the story as a whole. So if you haven’t yet finished the book, get out of here immediately.

Your comments may be used in the DwarfCast Book Club at a future date, so if your point is related to a specific sub-chapter, do mark it clearly.

Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5

 

Topic

[Podey]

I’m not sure if this can be safely contained within the earlier threads so I’ll put it here: can anyone help me get my head around why the smeg Lister being around Three Million Years hence was causing all the universes to collapse into each other?

I understand the aspect that humanity is supposed to be extinct by then, but – unless I missed something (entirely possible) – wouldn’t something have had to *altered* the timeline in some unnatural way to place him there for that to have been an anomaly? As far as I can tell it’s just cause and effect and so I don’t understand at all why it was causing problems. 

And thank you to whoever is first to point out the blindingly obvious answer I probably missed (I was reading behind my normal comfort levels in eagerness to finish!),

[Jonsmad]

I shall be using the fact that…. both Doug Naylor & Rob Grant both bought back Duane together in Emohawk, then separately in Back In The Red and now Titan as just a pathetic disguise the last time out…..as proof that they are both about the same level as solo writers. FACT.  Everyone who ever wrote “Rob was the funny one” or “Bring back Rob he was better than Doug” etc as a criticism of anything post 96 Red Dwarf, can now fuckity dibbley sod the fuck off for ever.

[Podey]

Oh god I forgot about that. 

[Jonsmad]

Where’s Chen & Selby? Can’t be floor 13

locked up as that’s not Rob Cannon. 

Drunk on the floor of Parrots then? 

[Jonsmad]

So lister ends up with agoraphobic back story in both creators solo universes.

[Jonsmad]

Ah what a total disappointment ending. 

Lorraine Kelly telling me about Kids who can’t read. I mean that’s a total curve ball. Get the kids to read Infinity for gods sake thats what we all did growing up! How can you end an audio book like that.

I can see what the thing was here. A sequel. I may give wiggle room to the opinion that Andrew could if Rob had jotted ideas etc could complete this with one more book and done deal. Before that ending I was 100% against someone not Grant Naylor having that. 

But I’ve zero idea about rights, Rob’s wishes and family, Doug’s take etc etc. As I enjoyed the book it just adds one final sorrow onto a pile of regret of Robs passing. It makes me super unlikely to revisit this book more than once more now, to hear it from Chris in full. 

Such a shame. It’s not totally bad in that it takes it up to just before the accident. But it sucks by circumstance I guess. Maybe dwarf always does, what with the missing movie and the cancelled Dave era special/s   Sigh.  Even previous novel weren’t so great at endings. From such a high. To a damp squib.  Sigh. The Ron Grant version of entangled, great ideas crammed in and a total crap ending. 

RIP Rob. I do love the shore leave alternative Romp. I love you came back to one last Dwarf story. I love ultimately that it was a novel and just its own thing. Your lister goes on to save all universes. I am sure. 

[Jonsmad]

Just reading the excellent spoiler free review

page. Thanks again for making the online part of the experience of release day Ian. 

I thought it best to debate Kochanski here at the end of the book, rather than there. You says she is an independent character and you aren’t the first to post that opinion. She does indeed get her own chapters here. But I personally find her underwritten in this book, Rob makes her Yorkshire and forthright which was a shock given her Scottish actress start was backed up in other books and Doug of course mostly makes her a class above Lister all the more in Series VII. But then I don’t feel the character really comes across as that different origin without out much dialogue. I don’t quite get how her friendship with Themis has lead to her courageous arc of saving her, the thread feels half baked to me. Equally her wedding dilema is all tell rather than her charcter having much interaction to show what’s going on. Maybe she needed a character from the hen night to interact a bit more. The four main characters, Holly and Peterson get a good stab of things. She gets about the same as holister. This is based on one sporadic reading so maybe I will see more on a second pass. But I think Doug did more originally with her as a lead, TV and novel.

[Jonsmad]

I do absolutely adore that this novel starts with Lister in that post break up period. It sort of almost slots into perfectly into a time line in “Infinity” where there is a gap. Of course we are one universe away from Kirk female captain joke maybe as well as one from the TV universe. The conversation of Lister as too big a project and Eric the rebound (Tim In Doug’s universe! Another example we can enjoy of great minds that didn’t get on at the end, still thinking alike) I love. It’s realistic that Lister isn’t with her, while the care is deep, they are each others life experience. 

I think we have to think that if Rob never saw Doug Dwarf, there can be GRANT-TV universe as well as a DOUG-ALL-TV universe.

[Jonsmad]

Captain Kirk, Frank, Randolph, Dennis & Tau we now have as many Captains as classic Star

Trek.  (Not counting Paxo, Emerald, Chloroform, Sadness, Yawn, Bollocks & Space Adventurer) or that Prat Oates. 

[Jonsmad]

Do you think Rob passed not knowing about Frank (VIII) & Doug won’t read Randolph, I mean why would he. 

[Jonsmad]

[Jonsmad]

Forget the reverse brothers the  whole magi-vegas act mullet fest conjoured up cheese the like of which Carzon could have taken home.

“ungerzogenerjunge” – German for Naughty Boy. Chris Barrie really earning his money on this one! 

[tombow]

I feel like most of it could be done on a TV budget, except for the flying taxis and the monster at the end. Though even they could be done on the cheap in some clever way I suppose.

[Podey]

I was a little disappointed that there weren’t more future iterations of the crew coming back to seek help, I thought it would have been fun to see some more alternative versions. But I guess I thought that aspect would play a greater role than it did so there wasn’t really room for it.

[Dave]

I was a little disappointed that there weren’t more future iterations of the crew coming back to seek help, I thought it would have been fun to see some more alternative versions. But I guess I thought that aspect would play a greater role than it did so there wasn’t really room for it.

I also wonder whether this would overstep the boundaries of the prequel setting that Rob had the rights to under the settlement. The book is very carefully written so that no future versions of any of the characters ever actually appear in person.

[Podey]

I was also amused to realise that Rob lost Talkie Toaster in the divorce.

[Dave]

Can I also just say how much I love Carzon lapping up the torture that Rimmer is going through in his Siegfried & Roy routine? It brought to mind the section from the earlier novel about Kryten’s shameless enjoyment of classic moments from Androids, combined with the Blackadder The Third moment with Prince George at the theatre not knowing the difference between something real and staged, while also functioning as a kind of meta commentary on how the reader has enjoyed seeing Rimmer go through so much shit in this book. A really wonderful, evocative and funny section of the novel.

[Dax101]

Ah what a total disappointment ending. 
Lorraine Kelly telling me about Kids who can’t read. I mean that’s a total curve ball. Get the kids to read Infinity for gods sake thats what we all did growing up! How can you end an audio book like that. 

Well when you think about it. Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers ends with Lister seeing the doorway back to reality and deciding to stay in better than life. The place the book made a point that his body would waste away while he was there. Can you imagine if suddenly something happened and Rob and Doug didn’t make Better than life? And this was the only book? They obviously went in expecting they would make a sequel. And they got to actually make it.

They obviously expected Titan might have a sequel. While Andrew could have changed the ending (i assume,but maybe he couldn’t by then). They probably wanted to keep the vision Rob left on it.

[Dave]

Well when you think about it. Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers ends with Lister seeing the doorway back to reality and deciding to stay in better than life.

I always thought there was a bit of ambiguity to the ending of IWCD. You can read it in different ways.

[Dax101]

I imagine people still wouldn’t see that as a satisfying ending, though, even with its ambiguity 

[Dave]

I like it as an ending but I read both IWCD and BTL back-to-back in the omnibus, so haven’t ever been in a situation where the end of IWCD is The End.

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

It’s a tad annoying it’s left open ended, and in a way part of the plot isn’t resolved. But I don’t really mind. The book is about these characters forced into various situations and escapades that even they don’t fully understand. We’re not privy to what’s going on and we follow them as they try and navigate the various entwining threads. And for that it does an excellent job. 

It’s a real real shame we’re unlikely to get more. But I can really appreciate what’s here and I think I’m going to enjoy it for some time to come 

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

So lister ends up with agoraphobic back story in both creators solo universes.

This and your comment about Duane Dibbley disguises

There’s a few little bits throughout the book that really show how Rob and Doug are on the same wave length when it comes to their ideas and comedy. So many little things that remind me, even if not directly, of Doug Dwarf

That will be because there’s so much Doug Dwarf that ideas are bound to cross over. But these two are very specific 

[Podey]

Do we think (as seemed clear to me) that the intention was to divorce the story from the ‘Red Dwarf’ ship itself, that it was going to fly off at the end of this book and not be a part of future tales? That they would mostly be set on Titan?

I felt like we were missing a bit of emotional turmoil at the fact Lister was giving up his chance to return to Earth, not that this would have changed his decision but I was surprised that wasn’t really mentioned as being a conflict towards the end. 

[Dave]

Do we think (as seemed clear to me) that the intention was to divorce the story from the ‘Red Dwarf’ ship itself, that it was going to fly off at the end of this book and not be a part of future tales? That they would mostly be set on Titan?

Yep. For me it was a clear sense of having Lister reject his destiny and actively choose a different future (and not coincidentally, a different, pre-accident timeline that Rob would be free to play with in future books).

[Podey]

Makes me think that ‘Red Dwarf: Titan’ could have been the main title of any future book with a subtitle following.

(like ‘The Walking Dead: Daryl Dixon – The Book of Carol’) 

[Dave]

Red Dwarf: Titan – Part Two; Zorro Seems To Be The Hardest Word

[Quinn: Clochebusters World Champion]

Do we think (as seemed clear to me) that the intention was to divorce the story from the ‘Red Dwarf’ ship itself, that it was going to fly off at the end of this book and not be a part of future tales? That they would mostly be set on Titan?
I felt like we were missing a bit of emotional turmoil at the fact Lister was giving up his chance to return to Earth, not that this would have changed his decision but I was surprised that wasn’t really mentioned as being a conflict towards the end. 

Well for Lister, he’s found out he is alive 3million years in the future. He doesn’t know specifics but it’s fair to assume he doesn’t live the life he wants 

At This point, staying on Titan whilst Red Dwarf flies off is the safer option to get back

[tombow]

I’m not sure if this can be safely contained within the earlier threads so I’ll put it here: can anyone help me get my head around why the smeg Lister being around Three Million Years hence was causing all the universes to collapse into each other?

I understand the aspect that humanity is supposed to be extinct by then, but – unless I missed something (entirely possible) – wouldn’t something have had to *altered* the timeline in some unnatural way to place him there for that to have been an anomaly? As far as I can tell it’s just cause and effect and so I don’t understand at all why it was causing problems. 

And thank you to whoever is first to point out the blindingly obvious answer I probably missed (I was reading behind my normal comfort levels in eagerness to finish!),

I read the chapter a couple of times, and I don’t think there really was a thorough explanation. A human shouldn’t exist in the future (why?), so timelines are collapsing, but it’s ok if “prime” Lister carries on existing in the future, as long as Titan Lister doesn’t. The reason is just “Kryten figured it out” I think.

maybe Meneer’s sabotaging of the drive plate in the Titan universe caused Rimmer to subconsciously mis-repair the one in the prime Universe? Or effected whoever installed them in the first place? Meaning the entire classic/prime storyline “shouldn’t” have happened? Or maybe Titan Holly is quantum-ly linked to the other universe’s Hollies, making them sabotage their ships in ways that mess up time.

Or maybe there just “shouldn’t” be intelligent/conscious life in the universe at that point? dunno

[Podey]

That’s probably the biggest issue I have with the book (and, again, I broadly like it!), the fact that the central conceit of why it needs to diverge from prime universe feels like just the basis for an idea and not a fully-formed one.

All it really needs is a reason *why* future Lister is an anomaly. 

[Doomitron]

I imagine people still wouldn’t see that as a satisfying ending, though, even with its ambiguity 

I disagree. I think Infinity’s ending is pretty beautiful in just how haunting it is. You can end an actual book there not intended for a sequel and it would work, it would be a depressing ending absolutely, but its clearcut and can function by itself. Titan’s is pretty clearly set-up for future installments there’s no question, I don’t think that really hurts the book to make it not enjoyable, but it doesn’t have as good of a potential cliffhanger where you can just end it there and it would work by itself.

[Doomitron]

So lister ends up with agoraphobic back story in both creators solo universes.

I thought at the end with Lister hesitant about the Garbage Pod he was going to bring up that he’s claustrophobic and that’d be another throughline with Doug Dwarf (Duct Soup).

[A Bailey]

I imagine people still wouldn’t see that as a satisfying ending, though, even with its ambiguity 

I disagree. I think Infinity’s ending is pretty beautiful in just how haunting it is. You can end an actual book there not intended for a sequel and it would work, it would be a depressing ending absolutely, but its clearcut and can function by itself. Titan’s is pretty clearly set-up for future installments there’s no question, I don’t think that really hurts the book to make it not enjoyable, but it doesn’t have as good of a potential cliffhanger where you can just end it there and it would work by itself.

Yep. IWCD is still one of my favourite endings of a book. It’s a cliffhanger, but also works as a dark ending when if nothing else would ever come we are told how humanity finally ends, and just don’t see it but at least get to know it ends with Lister happy for a time.

I’ve been reading Titan the last few evenings and just finished.  Need to sleep on it before discussing but the ending felt abrupt.

[Podey]

I am also a fan of the IWCD ending with or without the existence of a conclusion. I think it’s a good ending.

[Author]

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