Home Forums Ganymede & Titan Forum Regarding mellowness in Series 3

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  • #1832
    Tonguetied
    Participant

    Now when I watch series trois I always get this annoying niggly feeling about Rimmer’s apparent mellowness in said particular series. If you watch episodes of 3, you will notice that AJ has radically, and I do mean radically with a capital R, changed from being the uptight, obnoxious easily riled man. Now I think Series 3 has the most easy going AJ in the whole of show, we see a man who doesn’t fight back as much as we’re use to in other series, rather, we see a man who is much more willing to take criticism from the likes of Lister, just look at Marooned, he just shakes his head, or blatantly accepts what Dave is saying. While if this were the Rimmer from every other series he would be retorting until the geese come home – ”Oh ha ha.” or perhaps a ”And how many books have you read?”. With this lost energy, I feel that is what makes it a weaker series for me. It just seems the writers wanted to make Rimmer more darn sympathetic, and then come the next series he’s back to being the tense, withdrawn, strict man that makes his character such a joy to watch. Now I still think series 3 has a number of high points, and some eloquently well written/shot episodes(hand held camera in Marooned for example), but I just feel the writers were forgetting to include some of that dynamism from old AJ. Rather he is a shrinking violet it this season, more willing to share his uppermost secrets to a man of mutual hatred, Lister. The Cat and Lister are written exactly the same personality wise, attitude wise: Cat still thinks he’s god’s gift, he still has the one liners, dumb jokes. Lister still whines like a baby as he did in series 1 and 2( ”I’ll have some wiiiiiiine please darlin’ ”)and he still loathes Rimmer, although he really has less to go up against in this season, as like I said before, Rimmer seems to have lost his virile superincumbent air of sneers and superiority as we have seen in other series to a better degree.

    #124272
    pfm
    Participant

    I see it as the natural development of the character. Where they went in III, particularly Marooned, is a progression from series 2 episodes like Thanks For The Memory where we see more of Rimmer and Lister’s characters. Making him more of an arse in series IV was a good idea though, and obviously a conscious decision with the first two episodes set to be Meltdown and Dimension Jump. He needed to be a less-sympathetic character for those episodes to work.

    #124273
    Tonguetied
    Participant

    Yeah, I agree with you with the return to his uptight nature in Series 4,but can you think of anytime in Series 3 when he is obnoxious or strict with Lister?

    #124275
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    By Series III, Kryten had returned and become Rimmer’s official whipping boy. In his first scene in Series III, he’s just as pedantic and annoying as ever…it’s just that it’s directed to Kryten on his driving test.

    #124276
    Tonguetied
    Participant


    Yeah one of the few scenes he does his ordering about. But what about Lister, it just feels like he is the same character, still up against Rimmer, but AJ let’s him off quite easily in this series. Rimmer just doesn’t snap back this time round.

    #124310
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    No, because as Pete says, all that energy is directed towards Kryten. In any case, you can’t sustain that kind of relationship forever. If the RD crew were going to explore outside the ship more from series 3 onwards, there needed to be more co-operation for it to work.

    #124299
    Tonguetied
    Participant

    Still you can’t take the man out of his contempt for Lister, he should have shown it more that season. Regardless of cooperation, and since when was AJ the sort of man who did anything else other than what suited him, out for himself, he’s the reverse of the Three Musketeers moto, ”all for one and one for all!”, he’s the contrary to it by all standards. The character works because he has such disregard for his companions, he’s the epitome of what they hate, and so he should have been the git we all know and cherish for season trois.

    #124324
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    He acted like a selfish twat and a coward for all of series 3, though, so I still don’t get your point. There wasn’t enough dramatic energy for him to dominate Kryten and argue with Lister as much as he did before; it would have ended up being boring.

    #124325
    Tonguetied
    Participant

    I think it would have been just as entertaining, we needed that force, the tension between AJ and Lister, that’s why series 1 and 2 were so successful.

    #124328
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    Yeah, you’re right. Series 3 is cack.

    #124330
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    >I think it would have been just as entertaining, we needed that force, the
    >tension between AJ and Lister, that?s why series 1 and 2 were so successful.

    ———-

    Yeah, Series III was crap wasn’t it? it didn’t go out and cover entirely new ground and explore the characters a bit more did it?

    ———

    Backwards: A completely new idea, along with a backward barfight. Well that’s pointless isn’t it? Oh wait a minute.. No it isn’t…

    Marooned: Character Development. We didnt’ want to see more facets of Rimmer and Lister’s personality, we wanted to bicker and heckle each other all through the episode. Didn’t we?…

    PolyMorph: Again more Character development, through the medium of removing aspects of ones personality, allowed them development. This time it’s kinda hard for Rimmer to get at Lister when his anger’s been removed isn’t it?…

    Bodyswap: Rimmer and Lister swap bodies. That’s been done before in Dwarf hasn’t it? Oh no wait a minute, no it hasn’t..

    Timeslides: A Completely new concept. Never been done before. But then again all we wanted was Rimmer and Lister to argue. Never mind there are new characters in play here.

    The Last Day: Kryten’s character being explored more. As well as Lister and Rimmer regaling their childhoods in a drunken stupor. Excellent jokes in there.

    Series III was one of the better series, and although Rimmer and Lister DID fight in Series I and II, ideas change, stories change, they develop. If Red Dwarf III, IV, V, and VI followed in the same system as I and II, it would have got boring. So, I don’t think we “needed that force” at all, and I doubt it would have been that entertaining.

    #124336
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I know I always get shouted down when I say this, but… III is my least favourite of the first six series. Of course, that doesn’t mean that I don’t like it, simply that I don’t like it as much.

    “The Last Day” is one of my favourite eps, though.

    #124337
    Tonguetied
    Participant

    You doubt it Danny? Well I think the Rimmer/Lister relationship is the heart of the show. It is the foremost fundamental that makes the show so highly entertaining in my opinion.I realise all the developments that series 3 had, blatantly obvious. And yeah I never said it was less thrilling over all, only that some aspects were missing, Dannielsan.

    #80000
    Andrew
    Participant

    > III is my least favourite of the first six series.

    Interesting – because I think it’s by far the best of all eight!

    #124340
    mick
    Participant

    And for a first time ever… I agree with the above post!

    #124344
    pfm
    Participant

    III is a bloody amazing series, though perhaps not my favourite. I (currently) rate the series’ in this order –

    II
    V
    III
    I
    IV
    VI
    VIII
    VII

    Perhaps III it’s the most consistently good of all 8 series’. I prefer V even though it’s a little inconsistent in comparison. Surprisingly (maybe) Back To Reality is one of my least favourite episodes from V. I prefer The Last Day and Timeslides to Marooned and Polymorph. It makes me think, which are the episodes that are generally seen to be the best? At one time I thought it was obvious, but when you realise there’s people who prefer some VII and VIII episodes to stuff like Meltdown and Demons & Angels…you’ve got to wonder.

    We need ratings for all 52 episodes.

    #124345
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    Do we have any stats on episode ratings, anyone?

    Saying that though, ratings isn’t an accurate way of working out how good an episode was. Rather the whole series. No-one could possibly know that they were going to watch a good episode. Unless it was a repeat

    #124347
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    I think there might be some info in the Time Hole articles on TOS. Didn’t VIII get the highest ratings?

    #124356
    Tanya Jones
    Participant

    >And yeah I never said it was less thrilling over all, only that some aspects were missing, Dannielsan.
    >I think it would have been just as entertaining, we needed that force, the tension between AJ and Lister, that?s why series 1 and 2 were so successful.

    There’s rather a strong suggestion there that III is somehow a failure because Lister and Rimmer aren’t fighting all the time, despite the fact that IMO, series III has some of the most interesting episodes of the whole series. I can’t see how Lister and Rimmer fighting would have enhanced the fantastic character writing in this series; after all, their relationship is still central to the action.

    #124358
    Baz
    Participant

    Three is up there in lights for me. Think two juuuust edges in front, but Last Day is probably my favourite episode. And the writing on Marooned is magnificent.

    #124360
    John Hoare
    Participant

    think there might be some info in the Time Hole articles on TOS.

    They give the *peak* figures as the following:

    Series 1 – 4m
    Series 2 – 3.2m
    Series III – 5m
    Series IV – No info given
    Series V – Over 6m
    Series VI – 6.26m
    Series VII – Over 8m
    Series VIII – Over 8m

    #124361
    Danny Stephenson
    Keymaster

    > Didn?t VIII get the highest ratings?

    Well we certainly cant’ get a working system of rating to series if THAT’s true can we? :)

    #124371
    pfm
    Participant

    It’d be interesting to see what peak ratings a BBC2 Dwarf return would get. Probably around 4-5 million I’d say, then it would drop to 3 for the second episode (not because the first was crap but because it was plugged). If the hyped-as-hell Gervais can only get around 3 million for Extras then this seems realistic enough. There’s no way Dwarf’s fanbase would push the figure up to 7 or 8 million again. People are too obsessed with their phones to watch TV anymore. And I have officially turned into an old man by saying that.

    #124500
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    From memory…

    Stoke Me A Clipper got the biggest rating ever, something like 8.5 million. VIII started off at 8.2 million, and then dwindled to around 2 million for Only The Good, although that can be put down to the fact that it was shifted in the schedules to Monday night due to golf.

    #124501
    John Hoare
    Participant

    I would be really interested to know what rating Pete 2 got – just to see how much of the problem with Only The Good… was the Monday night scheduling.

    #124514
    Andrew
    Participant

    > around 2 million for Only The Good

    Are you sure about that figure? The REPEAT was moved due to tennis, as was Pete 2’s, but the original went out in the regular slot and I’m pretty sure did better than 2 million…

    Are you just guessing at stuff now? :-)

    #124519
    Dave
    Participant

    Where are these numbers coming from? Is there an Andrew Pixley type list to consult?

    #124520
    Dave
    Participant

    Did the Remastered eps get better viewing figures than the originals?

    #124521
    John Hoare
    Participant

    Figures I gave are from Time Hole on reddwarf.co.uk. No idea about Ian’s, although I know various figures for certain episodes been published here and there. I’d love a complete list for each episode, though, but I have no idea how to get that!

    I don’t know what rating the Remastered eps got, either.

    #124524
    Seb Patrick
    Keymaster

    Are you sure about that figure? The REPEAT was moved due to tennis, as was Pete 2?s, but the original went out in the regular slot and I?m pretty sure did better than 2 million?

    Are you just guessing at stuff now? :-)

    Now?

    #124627
    Ian Symes
    Keymaster

    around 2 million for Only The Good

    Are you sure about that figure? The REPEAT was moved due to tennis, as was Pete 2?s, but the original went out in the regular slot and I?m pretty sure did better than 2 million?

    Are you just guessing at stuff now? :-)

    Like I say, figures were from memory, but OTG was around that level. Because of the repeats for Pete 2 and OTG being moved, the figures were down, because figures for repeats that were shown in the same week got added to the original broadcast figure. I am absolutely, a hundred per cent certain, though, that the original broadcast of Only The Good was shifted to the Monday night (a mere four days after Pete Part Two) due to golf coverage on the Thursday night. I have the Radio Times cuttings to prove it, but unfortunately no working scanner.

    #124631
    Pete Part Three
    Participant

    I definitely remember it being on the Monday but I was pretty sure it was due to (indoor) tennis rather than golf.

    I also seem to remember the viewing figures dwindling dramatically at the end of the series, but this has always been contradicted.

    #124633
    Andrew
    Participant

    Ah, hang on, yes, sorry – OTG was SCHEDULED to go out on a different day. Sorry, mistook what you said for an implication that it was moved at the last minute due to sports coverage, rather than as part of deliberate planning. My bad.

    Anyway, yeah, Pete 2’s repeat was shifted due to the channel staying with the tennis coverage. Pete 2’s rating, without the added repeat numbers, was 4.52m. OTG’s, on that Monday night, was 4.24m.

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